dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

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RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by RSR »

May I have clarification and correction from forum members , please?
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1) jaijaivanthi (hindusthani) ..one of the best songs in this ragam is said to be 'man mohana bade jute' by Lata in the film 'Seema', music by Shankar Jailishen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXGMxTTB_Dg
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2) Dwijavanthi in carnatic is said to be very close to Jaijaivanthi of HM.
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3) Famous kruthis in Dwijawanthi are Dikshithar's ' Akilandeswari' and 'Chetasri '.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhot6YD1xBU by Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer
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That said, I find no similarity between Seema song ragam and Enthu uLLame. (which to me is distinctly Chenchurutti)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8eGwrkziak

and also Ragupathiragava by MS
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4) In the film 'Meera' ( thamizh), MS sings Papanasam Sivan song 'Enadhu uLLame ' . My impression all these years was that the song is in Chenchurutti. .. But , an article in TheHindu "charulatha mani says
"In the film Meera, M. S. Subbulakshmi renders the song ‘Enadhu ullame’ with absolute surrender to the divine. The song opens with the antara gandhara, and the subsequent phrase SRG,RSNDNS – ‘inba vellame’ demonstrates the use of the sadharana gandhara. The phrase ‘meera prabhu giridhara gopalanai varadanai’ brings forth the complete bhava of Dwijavanti. The prayoga GMRG, R with the exaggerated gamaka in the gandhara is the signature phrase.
Is this correct?
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 884619.ece
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5) she adds "the popular bhajan in Dwijavanti ‘Raghupati raghav rajaram’ is on everybody's lips.".. Is she referring to the famous MS record?

https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... va-rajaram
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6) someone has written an article on DKP, that she sang 'Chetasri' in Delhi in the presence of Dr.Rajendra Prasad and later when he was in Madras,he asked DKP to sing it and shed tears on hearing. Vijay Siva confirms
"Babu Rajendra Prasad had moist eyes when he requested her to prepeat 'Chetasri Balkrishnam' (Dwijavanti) twice "
http://dkpattammal.org/Friend-Philosopher-Guru.aspx
Can I get a link to DKP song?
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RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by RSR »

varshaji-> If indeed 'Man mohana bade joote' by Latha in SEEMA is the standard Jaijaiwanthi of HM, I do not find any ragam ( including Dwijawanthi) or any composition in CM, coming any where close to this particular gem. Ocean of differeence between Sahana ( Giripai) / Dwijawanthi and Manmohana. (sepecially the second line...)
and absolutely no proximity to another gem 'Enathu Ullame' by MS in Meera ( by Papanasam sivan lyrics... music by SV Venkataraman? or Sivan himself?). I value your guidance .please

Manamohanaa, bade jhuthhe
Haar ke haar nahin maane

Bane the khilaadi piyaa, nikale anaadi
Mose beimaani kari, mujh se hi ruthhe

Tumhari ye baaansi kaanhaa, bani galafaasin
Taan sunaa ke meraa tanaman lute

hindi lyrics , transliteration and video clips here.

http://geetmanjusha.com/lyrics/855-man- ... 8%E0%A4%B9

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by varsha »

If indeed 'Man mohana bade joote' by Latha in SEEMA is the standard Jaijaiwanthi of HM, I do not find any ragam ( including Dwijawanthi) or any composition in CM, coming any where close to this particular gem.
Dear RSR .
I respond only because you asked me to :)
With due respects to Lata / SJ
1.man mohana bade jhoote can only thought of AS BASED ON JAIJAIWANTHI and not THE "standard Jaijaiwanthi of HM"
The standard jaijaiwanthi has a whole lot of dimensions in itself to risk further comparisons. This film song is a good song based on jaijaiwanthi - is how I would like to think of it myself.
2.Not find anything in cm come anywhere close to this particular gem , I think it is a matter of your personal preference. To choose to look at the mount of CLASSICAL MUSIC standing on top of the mount of FILM MUSIC .
As opposed to the other way around.
3.For the likes of me who are in perpetual tossups from one to the other , we have learnt to allow the twilight in .

http://www.mediafire.com/file/l0a9dy1zy ... vanti_.mp3

My firm conviction is that one should not take this business of basing songs on ragas + comparing ragas too seriously .Unless we are willing to use the rigorous tests that classical music demands .
I say this because you seem to be fascinated in a particular way ( by reading your posts ).
I would be understating if I said that much more is transacted in a classical music piece than in a film song.
Each classical rendering of a raga ( even if by the same artist , for the same composition ) is a different creature.
A film song is a caricature , cast in stone.
In my years of listening I have found only one occasion where mainstream singers have gone on record to say that they could not do what Saigal did to Babul Mora . And went only humbly to prove this by singing/ playing it for our sakes. Bhimsen Joshi , Kishori Amonkar , Bismilla Khan(he even cut an album superimposing his shehnai on Saigals original ) , Jajgit Singh and more .

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by RSR »

...
Respected varsh ji, Thank you for your opinion.
a) I too do not look at Classical music from the view point of Film music. .The other way round. But, I do feel that there are some wonderful film songs composed by CRamachandra, Naushad, MadanMohan based on Hindusthani classical ragas , beautifully rendered by Lata in her younger days. Seema song is one such. and songs in MS films are a class by themselves
b) Almost every one says , Seema song is typical Jaijaivanthi .
c) MS Amma remarked once that the singer should reveal the ragam in the opening minute itself. instead of keeping them guessing
d) As a creed , I have already written about my wonder at Ragamalika songs. of 78 rpm days. Just three minutes but 3 ragams wonderfully and adequately rendered. and many like me are still struggling to find the ragam of each part correctly. !
e) If I may cite a parallel from literature, the Bard's plays are typical of what I have in mind. None of his plays exceeds 25 pages! At the other extreme we have novels by Scott and the Russian masters Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. Each has its own merit. . We can love a 3 minute Todi in 78 rpm record by MS( 'vandinam muralum solai' ) as much as a two hour alaap by Sri.Rajarathnam Pillai. .....
e) When I said 'any where close', I did not mean quality but the 'likeness' to Jaijaivanthi.
f) I do understand that a ragam cannot be fully explored in just one minute or three minutes , but some experts do that it seems . GNB 's viruttham in Kambothi (Sakunthalai) is cited by many connoisseurs. and my favourite is the Thilang piece in Thamizh Meera ( just one minute)
g) If we keep insisting that only concert type renderings are worthy, we may have to reject the entire experience of the ' gramaphone' generation of 1935-1955. I dont think, I am alone in considering that assessment faulty. Just yesterday, I have given link to youtube for a DKP record of 'Poonkuyil koovum' song(in DKP thread). The focus in that video is as much on the gentleman who has so reverently relished and preserved that gem. DKP herself would endorse.
..Kindly do allow for the possibility that we can appreciate both types. .
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My main doubt was if Jaijaivanthi has any resemblance to Senchurutti. as sung by MS. Kindly refer to #1 of this thread and help. Best Regards

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by thenpaanan »

I have a related question on this ragam. I have listened to some (would not deign to call it "many") recordings of Jaijaiwanti by Hindustani singers (one of my favorites being Kumar Gandharva https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joHzxnNMm9g). I especially love the slow and elaborate development of the rag by these giants and would love to include some of that approach in my own exposition.

My question to forum members here is: are there elements (phrases, gamakas, etc) of jaijaiwanti as sung by Hindustani musicians that you would NOT include in an exposition of dwijAvanti?

Thanks
Thenpaanan

Lakshman
Posts: 14019
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by Lakshman »

It is my understanding that raghupati rAghava is in the hindustani rAgA garA (see link about this rAgA below)
http://www.soundofindia.com/raaga_details.asp?raaga=34.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by varsha »

Kindly do allow for the possibility that we can appreciate both types. .
Will allow in my future posts .
My main doubt was if Jaijaivanthi has any resemblance to Senchurutti. as sung by MS. Kindly refer to #1 of this thread and help.
Beyond my capabilities,Sir . Regards

narayan
Posts: 383
Joined: 05 Oct 2008, 07:43

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by narayan »

I thought the discussion was about jaijaivanti and dwijavanti. Senchurutti is quite a different thing.

thenpaanan's question is difficult to answer, and for us, it may be easier to answer the other way around. Very few HM musicians would be inclined to sing phrases of Dwijavanti at least of the Brinda type or MMI type or even the KVN, DKP and Semmangudi type.

thenpaanan
Posts: 635
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:45

Re: dwijavanthi -jaijaivanthi.(enathu uLLame?ragupathi ragava?)

Post by thenpaanan »

narayan wrote: thenpaanan's question is difficult to answer, and for us, it may be easier to answer the other way around. Very few HM musicians would be inclined to sing phrases of Dwijavanti at least of the Brinda type or MMI type or even the KVN, DKP and Semmangudi type.
Fair enough. I am trying to push the boundaries a bit and see how far one can push dwijavanti without losing its identity. There are the obvious problems of avoiding close ragas like Sahana. But that is not much help in trying to come up with new ideas in the ragam. HM was the obvious next place to look since we are told we got it from them. Kumar Gandharva for example spends quite a bit of time in the ativilambit build up meandering between sa, ri, and ga2-ga3 and stopping at every note without losing the character of jaijaiwanti. However I am not sure it would be considered kosher in dwijavanti, which is always sung at a semi-brisk pace relatively speaking and most of the lower half phrases always landing on the Ri, which is the only note held at length. Dwijavanti is sung slowly relative to other common CM ragas but it is still relatively brisk compared to common expositions of jaijaiwanti.

-T

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