Janya Ragas

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manojkmr787
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Joined: 07 Mar 2017, 13:46

Janya Ragas

Post by manojkmr787 »

The raga Hamsadhvani (with the swaras S,R2,G3,P,N3,S) is derived from Shankarabharam but the same raga Hamsadhvani can also be considered as a derivative of Kalyani or any other raga with the same combination of swaras if available, but it is not. Can someone explain this? Also, there are many examples which raises the same question.

Here is an illustrative example:

Shankarabharam: S R2 G3 M1 P D2 N3 S
Kalyani: S R2 G3 M2 P D2 N3 S

Hamsadhvani: S,R2,G3,P,N3,S

Please forgive me if this is not a valid question.

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by Lakshman »

The general rule is that the janya rAgA is placed under the parent scale that has the lowest numerical designation. Likewise mOhana is placed under mELA 28.

manojkmr787
Posts: 4
Joined: 07 Mar 2017, 13:46

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by manojkmr787 »

Thanks for your reply.

Now this raises another question illustrated with the example below.

Raga Gambheera Naatai (S G3 M1 P N3 S) is a derivative of ChalaNaatai(S R3 G3 M1 P D3 N3 S) which is 36th mela, but it could also be derived from Shankarabharanam (S R2 G3 M1 P D2 N3 S) 28th mela, which also possesses the same set of swaras required.

I am trying to analyse, if there is a theory behind deriving a janya raga from a specific janaka raga only.

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by Lakshman »

Even though the notes may match the ones in shankarAbharaNa, gambhIranATa has chayas of nATa which is a janya mELA 36. At least that is what I think. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can provide a better answer.

manojkmr787
Posts: 4
Joined: 07 Mar 2017, 13:46

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by manojkmr787 »

You are right in a way, but I believe, GambheeraNata got the chayas of Nata, due to the fact that it was derived from Nata. For a moment, if you forget that there is a raga called Nata and sing Gambheera Nata, then you can get the feel of other ragas too.

Also, this confusion comes up more when you are trying to find the name and the derivation of the raga by just looking at the swaras in the composition.

Yeah, I hope, someone can throw more light on this topic. I also hope, that I shouldn't be the only one who is lacking clarity on this topic.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by sureshvv »

I read an article by N.Ravikiran ji somewhere that questioned the validity of the "lowest numerical" rule and argued for a more nuanced criterion. May be it was even here on rasikas.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by vasanthakokilam »

In any natural language, there is syntax, semantics and pragmatics. Syntax is the grammar, rules and vocabulary part of the language, Semantics is the straight meaning of words and sentences and Pragmatics is about contextual understanding of the meaning and to a significant extent involves both the speaker and the listener. Certain implications in the speaker's speech is inferred by the listener. Things get fuzzier as we move away from Syntax but fuzzier it is more significant and meaningful it is. And learning proceeds from syntax to semantics to pragmatics. Pragmatics is rather lived rather than learned.

Similarly, in CM, the 72 melakarta scheme is syntax. The janya raga assignment is purely a syntactical one and no implication of hierarchy in terms of chronological genesis or significance need to be inferred from it. That is, it is not at all the case that a child raga came after the parent melakarta or the child raga is somehow less significant than the parent. That is the danger of focussing on syntax too much and it is too easy in CM beginners to form such wrong impressions. The rule of the lowest melakarta number to break the tie is just a syntactical rule. We should not hesitate to call the melakarta scheme of parent and child a scale based classification and not a raga based classification.

Semantical definitions of a raga include the aspects that give its chaya and unique melodic characteristic. Here you talk of the jeeva swaras, nyasa swaras, characteristic phrases, what kind of gamakas are used etc. A semantics based classification of janya would put, for example, Mohanam a janya of Kalyani as is in done in HM. I think Hamsadwani will also belong there. Beyond just classification, as we all know, the true raga definition as opposed to scale, belong in this space of semantics. Also, certain aspect of the rasa/bhava/emotions of the melody belong here. Atana's boldness can be attributed to its semantics. Other aspects of rasa/bhava belong in Pragmatics

Pragmatics is even fuzzier. This is the domain of the bhava. While there are some semantical underpinnings for bhava, a lot of the bhava is indeed in pragmatics. It is contextual. The singer puts in their conception of the bhava of the raga and the listener adds their own inferences to it ( singer implies the listener infers )

Learing typically starts with Syntax and then semantics and then over the life time pragmatics is leanred, lived, absorbed and inculcated.

In general, HM classification of ragas considers more the Pragmatics and Semantics aspects and CM starts with syntax and then adds the semantics and pragmatics. This is all about scholarship and methods of talking about the ragas and not in the actual performance. A performance of a CM raga is of course a great combination of syntax, semantics and pragmatics that we all enjoy

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by sureshvv »

To really split hairs :) actually there are different type of Hamsadvani renditions. Some of them are Kalyani janyam and some others are Lathangi janyam! Depends on your luck.

vs_manjunath
Posts: 1466
Joined: 29 Sep 2006, 19:37

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by vs_manjunath »

Would like to know whether the raga "gambhIra vAni " is discussed in this forum, if yes, pl do provide the link.
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by vs_manjunath on 25 Nov 2017, 10:58, edited 1 time in total.

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by Lakshman »

The scanned pages I sent you are from Raganidhi. The four volumes are available for download at musicresearchlibrary.net website.

vs_manjunath
Posts: 1466
Joined: 29 Sep 2006, 19:37

Re: Janya Ragas

Post by vs_manjunath »

Lakshman ji - Thank You So Very Much for the scanned sheets as well as the reference you have just now provided.

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