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Triloka Maata Nannu

Tālam & Layam related topics
Ranganayaki
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by Ranganayaki » 31 Aug 2015, 09:10

It is not clear whether it is the original video or the youtube video that has some cuts. There is a distinct cut at exactly 1:30, where a good chunk of the anupallavi is lost. But at that point, you hear a clear takita taka dhimi on the mridangam, which should guide you through the anupallavi and then the pallavi too, this goes on for at least a full minute when even if the mridangam is not completely clear, you can maintain the rhythm heard at 1: 30. And you can use the reprise of the pallavi to know how he sings the pallavi. It seems at one point as though he does a veechu at samam (the Ta of takita) of two successive avartanams - I could be wrong. Does he use a rubberband-time style of singing in the charanam that was described earlier? I think you could try maintaining the takita taka dhimi.. and you find the motions of the mridangist coinciding.. But I am not 100 pc sure.

Again all of your knowledge levels are so high, I may be stating the obvious, but still this aspect has not been mentioned yet, so here I am.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by Ranganayaki » 31 Aug 2015, 09:23


shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 01 Sep 2015, 09:23

Best way I have observed to keep tALam for such a flow is to do two taps and two waves alternating between the pairs. Whenever changing from tap to wave or wave to tap - leave 4 mAtras - ta-ka-di-mi . Between the taps and waves it will be the takita. It becomes sukam without any teeth nashing..

I have seen Vidushi Smt. M.S Sheela do this in a concert with a miSra nadai song - some dAsara kriti I think.

That works as well for kanDa nadai as in tIrAta viLayATTu piLLai - even though it is less of a problem for kanDa nadai due to the closeness of the beats 2-3.
Last edited by shankarank on 01 Sep 2015, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 01 Sep 2015, 09:33

In the video UKS is resisting the flow with takadimi-takita kind of sollus - that is what makes it tough to follow. In the Audio only version, the percussion hugs the normal flow of takita-takadimi where the syllables are positioned.

Can we call that viSama laghuvu? :lol:

SrinathK
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by SrinathK » 03 Sep 2015, 22:42

Vishama laghuvu indeed ! Actually in the audio recording, MDR is rendering in Viloma Chapu while UKS is playing the Mishra Chapu pattern at many places ! That was why I was fooled in the beginning.

Actually I was hoping to see from MDR's rendition what tala he was rendering (Dhanammal --- Tiger Varadachariar -- MDR ????) -- maybe now we have to ask some Kathakali dancers to demonstrate this mishra laghuvu (assuming it isn't telugu for the laghu in a usual mishra ekam). But alas my hopes were dashed by the cameraman, God, that camera! Image

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by vasanthakokilam » 29 Jan 2016, 02:53

shankarank wrote:Best way I have observed to keep tALam for such a flow is to do two taps and two waves alternating between the pairs. Whenever changing from tap to wave or wave to tap - leave 4 mAtras - ta-ka-di-mi . Between the taps and waves it will be the takita. It becomes sukam without any teeth nashing..

I have seen Vidushi Smt. M.S Sheela do this in a concert with a miSra nadai song - some dAsara kriti I think.

That works as well for kanDa nadai as in tIrAta viLayATTu piLLai - even though it is less of a problem for kanDa nadai due to the closeness of the beats 2-3.
read this thread after a long time, it got referenced in another thread. Shankarank, I am not sure if I got the tALa keeping method you describe above. Can you elaborate please? Thx

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 01 Feb 2016, 05:22

Let me see if this clarifies a bit what I was trying to say.

For a tiSra nadai song like cinnanciru kiLiyE you can handle it without turning the hand - but do two taps at ta-ki positions of the ta-ki-Ta sollus. You can even do just one tap for each beat and get away if you can keep the flow of 3s in your mind.

Lets progress to a kanDa nadai song like tIrAda viLayATTu piLLai. You still don't have to turn the hand - you can tap at "ta" and the second "ta" of the ta-ka-ta-ki-Ta as long as you correctly leave two mAtras after the second "ta" instead of 1 mAtra after the first "ta".

For miSra nadai however you can see the issue. ta-ki-Ta-ta-ka-di-mi are the positions. If you keep tAlam like miSra capu - you may do two taps with palm down or palm facing up ( as it does in a wave) at ta-ki position and then a tap at second "ta" and another tap at the "di". This is unwieldy for a fast flowing (relatively) miSra nadai song. Two close taps at ta-ki positions are hard to do. Then lets say we reduce it to just one at the first "ta" to begin with and do the rest as is - this is done sometimes even in slow miSra cApu for those who are confident that the first tap represents 3 mAtrAs - which its "ta" itself plus 2 mAtras gap. the rest of the two taps are 2 mAtras ( 1+1) reach. Even this is hard in a fast miSra nadai as the perceptible difference between 3 mAtras and 2 mAtras is hard to sense and things can slip.

So we devise a way to reduce further to just two taps at the first "ta" 3 mAtras and second "ta" 4 mAtras. Now 4 is just a wee bit longer and still there may be a confusion whether it is 4 or 3 and after which tap. To make that distinction I think some musicians made it more convenient by doing once cycle with two taps palm facing down and the next cycle with same two taps with palm facing up - with the palm changing direction always after the 4 mAtra section.

MDR ofcourse may just get by, by doing just one tap for the whole cycle and perceive the miSra nadai upto himself - which is what he is doing and many times he may not even do that. :roll:

It is like panca pAndDavAl kaTTil kAl polE mUnRu ( pAndavAs are like the legs in a cot are 3 in number) said some one - showed two fingers and wrote 1 and rubbed that also. :lol:

As someone said to SSI I think about his dEvagAndhAri once - avA manusulE ninaittal maTTum pOrAtu! ellArum ariyumpadi pADaNum! :lol:
Last edited by shankarank on 01 Feb 2016, 06:19, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by vasanthakokilam » 01 Feb 2016, 05:51

shankarank, thanks, got it.

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 24 Jul 2016, 10:07

Here is the miSra nadai song by Vid. Thanmayi Krishnamurthy a disciple of TMK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrWLB0_X9g

I think one such song of Puradaradasa is how Smt. M. S Sheela did the tALam as mentioned in my Post #28 and explained further in #32.

Here is another one by Dr BMK at 5:30 minutes as part if this Album :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxUHIlbSsLw

SmaraNE ondE sAladE - usually sung in Adi is sung in MiSra nadai instead.

Syama Sastri - of course is not a soft candy like Purandara Dasa - he is a KaRkanDu ( Crystallized sugar pellets).

SrinathK
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by SrinathK » 25 Jul 2016, 22:40

@shankarank, So you reduced the Mishra chApu pattern from -- a) tt,t,t, | to b) t,,t,t, || and then even further to t,,t,,,

You'd be a laya god if you pulled off the t,,,,,, |

The thing is that counting notes and beats (the sollus) is not too hard -- it's the PAUSES (karvais) that are very hard to estimate. On an unrelated note, that's what made Flute Mali such a terror.

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 26 Jul 2016, 09:39

SrinathK wrote: You'd be a laya god if you pulled off the t,,,,,, |
SrinathK wrote: >> SrinathK from the "CM Drifting away from Bhakti" - thread ( Gen. Disc.)

If anyone has an issue that the music is not abstract enough, then one can just keep stripping at it until it reaches the highest form of universal abstraction --- silence. :lol: I think the real problem is not with the composed music, it's actually an urge to indulge more in manodharma sangeetham that isn't getting fulfilled to it's heart's content.
I am not anywhere near even to start in the direction of the nirvAna state of abstract silence yet. I am more interested examining the middle ground between hugging the beats and the abstract silence - i.e. "ordered silence" that are bounded by sensible kriyas.

5 and 7 get interesting because of the fact that they have long and shorts ( cinnadu - perisu) - (2+3) , (3+4). You get the Darshan of Ambal and Swamy's pAdams.

Depending on the speed - as kriyas are reduced to the sensible minimum - that affords opportunities for making music around them. Unleash kArvais across them. With two taps "t,,t,,," you get scope for that more.

That works for musicians who are neither kriya agnostic ( like the light-y smootheners) - nor kriya centric (the strictly kalpita musician) - but transcendental enough to acknowledge their presence - still able to make them subtle.

MDR of course does what you mention - pulls off the t,,,,,, - but NOT without help. He has a person of conviction in UKS that is able to sync and aid with his laya.

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 26 Jul 2016, 09:53

keerthi wrote: . This Misra Laghu(vu) is the term also used by the DhanammAL descendants to designate the tAla setting of many songs that they sang - including KaruNa jUDu [Sri], taruNamidamma [gauLipantu] and ninnu vinAga [PUrvakalyAni] . Other significant examples are their family heirloom prANasakhuDiTu, the janjUTi jAvaLi; which they sang] and nI mAtalEmAyenu rA- the pUrvakalyANi jAvaLi [both notated in Brindamma’s book JavaLigaL, published by Music Academy].
Prof SRJ - in the year - I think when Sri T.N Krishnan was awarded Sangita Ratnakara in Cleveland ( around 2003 or 2004) - had performed nI mAtalEmAyenu rA in miSra laghu with Sri Mannargudi Easwaran as accompaniment. Ashwin / Rohin his disciples were singing with him. Prof TRS was also in attendance.

SRJ did mention that he learnt this from Brindamma.

I am stating maximum detail so people can use it to locate possible recordings. If anybody have recordings (video/audio) that will help rasikas.

SrinathK
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by SrinathK » 27 Jul 2016, 14:00

@keethi, I am certain that karuNa jUDu is in Chatushra Chapu and the recording of Mukta singing nI mAtalEmAyenu rA which I have was in Adi.

I am now beginning to wonder if that was another name for viloma chApu.

keerthi
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by keerthi » 27 Jul 2016, 14:04

Chatushra Chapu
???


Suguna Varadachari sings the Misra Laghuvu version of the purvakalyANi jAvaLi.
Ritha Rajan discusses the two versions of nI mATalemayenu.

SrinathK
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by SrinathK » 27 Jul 2016, 20:17

Technically that's what I think ought to be called -- T,TT |T, TT|T, TT|T,TT|T, -- It's the same beat used in Bhajana Sampradayas. I had to resort to it as when I was trying to expand my repertoire, I keep coming up with "Chapu" listed as the tala when it could be Chatushram, Khandam or Mishram, much to my annoyance.

It was when you mentioned karuNa juDu when I started thinking if this mishra laghuvu is really another name for a viloma chApu as I knew that Brindamma's rendition of it was in chatushra chApu.

Going back to the old description of the Mishra Laghuvu, it sounds very similar to what happens when you sing a song in khaNDa chApu which gives a very chatushram like feel to it, and then realize it can perfectly fit into an Adi tala in khaNDa naDai. I always used to feel that the nadai beats were meant to create a "pseudo-chatushram" feel to make it easier to help count those more complex numbers.

And now that you posted this rendition of nI mATale , I declare that my hunch about what this mishra laghuvu could be was indeed correct ...

It IS viloma chApu all along. :mrgreen: @keerthi, Thank you.

:ugeek:

Ananth
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by Ananth » 29 Jul 2016, 01:19

Excellent thread, thanks to laya experts here, I have moved some of my "don't know that I don't know" concepts towards "starting to know".

Probably the topic can be renamed as, say chapu talas? Rubato?
In any case, with the current topic name, there is the risk of many rasikas missing it.

SrinathK
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by SrinathK » 02 Aug 2016, 12:01

I think it can be renamed as Shyama Sastri Compositions and Chaapu talas

keerthi
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by keerthi » 05 Aug 2016, 11:52

A minor correction. In an earlier post,I had said -
This Misra Laghu(vu) is the term also used by the DhanammAL descendants to designate the tAla setting of many songs that they sang ....
Other significant examples are their family heirloom prANasakhuDiTu, the janjUTi jAvaLi; which they sang] and nI mAtalEmAyenu rA- the pUrvakalyANi jAvaLi [both notated in Brindamma’s book JavaLigaL, published by Music Academy].
prANasakhuDiTu is given as being in deshAdi in the book, and the pUrvakalyANi jAvaLi is not printed in this volume.

It was a case of faulty memory. However, I can vouch for the two versions of the pUrvakalyANi jAvali from within the family, based on many other sources, including my teacher's pAthantaram.

I am grateful to Ravi(Sri) for pointing me to the error in my post.

sankark
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by sankark » 19 Aug 2016, 20:12

SrinathK wrote:Technically that's what I think ought to be called -- T,TT |T, TT|T, TT|T,TT|T, -- It's the same beat used in Bhajana Sampradayas. I had to resort to it as when I was trying to expand my repertoire, I keep coming up with "Chapu" listed as the tala when it could be Chatushram, Khandam or Mishram, much to my annoyance.
May be whoever notated couldn't identify c/k/m and so just cApu. I thought the convention is that when just written cApu it is m cApu and triputai is t triputai.

A laya/tALa novice question. T,TT - isn't that a fancy c Ekam with one T omitted. Extending, it could also be T,,T|T,,T or T,,,|T,,,.

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 21 Aug 2016, 04:43

T,TT is the Usi talam done in Bhajans - the Abhang Marathi tradition does it with one count offset which feels like ,TTT - that is counter intuitive to us deep southerners :lol:. First time I heard it was when a Bank transferee from up in Maharashtra sang in our Bhajan group - very evocative.

That count offset will instead be played by the likes of PMI and PR typically down south - if they had accompanied any veethi Bhajans in Palghat ever.

That is possibly a relic in the Mridangam's memory lane down from Maratha country into Tanjore?

shankarank
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Re: Triloka Maata Nannu

Post by shankarank » 27 Aug 2017, 20:04

What the hell is this? :o , a damaged recording - or another cApufication!!! If so what cApu??

https://youtu.be/UC96MoQlSps?t=478 :lol:

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