how to identify taalam from any given song

[bagheera]

...
I retrieved this as 7 beats ( am I right?) Like the first line is sung in 7X4 = 28 totally
so is it khanda jati rupaka taalam or misra jaati eka taalam or tisra jati triputa taalam or chatusra jati jhampa talam ?
....

thanks

Disclaimer: I am a relative newbie to Carnatic music.

I faced the same confusion some time back. Wikipedia helped.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tala_(music)

"The beats of a tala are divided into groups known as vibhagas, the first beat of each vibhaga usually being accented. It is this that gives the tala its unique texture. For example, Rupak tala consists of 7 beats while the related Dhamar tala consists of 14 beats. The spacing of the vibhaga accents makes them distinct, otherwise one avartan of Dhamar would be indistinguishable for two of Rupak or vice versa"

So the trick is to identify the accents (emphasis beats). At least for me, thats easier said than done

With the help of above information, I came up with an illustration to help understand talams. You might find it useful.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

Any mistakes pointed out will be greatly appreciated.

--
Sriram

[Nick H]

You seem to have mixed up the carnatic and hindustani systems; you can't do that, it doesn't work.

The fact that there are some similar words, like rupaka, rupak, that mean different things, aids the confusion.

I know very, very little (can't even remember the names) about Hindustani taal, but I think that the method of accenting certain beats and of playing other specific beats without accent is very specific, and an important part of how the musicians find their way around what can be astonishingly long rhythm cycles

[vasanthakokilam]

Sriram, Great job with that spreadsheet. I like it very much. I strive for stripping things of artificial complexity created by terminology, obfuscation and looseness in definition. You seem to have suffered through the same thing and made an attempt to clearly present things. Nice!

Nick is right, what you have read in Wikipedia is more a HM concept. In CM, accents on all angas ( what you call vibhagas ) are not strictly followed or required. What is practiced more or less uniformly is the accent on the Arudhi point.

The aesthetics behind the arudhi is that it is a balancing point between the poorvanga ( front ) and uttaranga ( back ) of the thala. So it tends to be more or less in the middle.

For example, for triputa thalas the arudhi is on the first beat of the first drutha. For various jAthis, the arudhi will move around, obviously. I had heard some of these thala types can accommodate dual arudhis ( like, for ata, it is the second laghu and first drutham ). That adds to the beauty and balance, and more fodder for the imagination of the composers and performers.

I am sure you will ask 'what point is the arudhi accent for the various thala types?'. I have been asking that question here but no one has stepped up and provided a definite answer.

The following rule is definitely there

1. The start of the second anga is the arudhi normally.

Your spreadsheet provides a framework to quickly determine the ambiguities with just the arudhi requirement. In each category, scan vertically to see if there are 'X's in the same column ( other than the first column ). If so, resolve the ambiguities using the arudhi rule(s).

On my first look, only the category ( 7,14 ) has an ambiguity: chatusra jampa and chathusra druva. That can be neatly resolved if the arudhi for druva is on the beginning of the second laghu. I do not know if that is actually true. It does make sense since the second laghu is closer to the middle than the first drutham. Some one please confirm. There is a druva thala varnam but unfortunately that does not seem to follow the arudhi closely.

If true, it requires an additional rule.

2. If the second anga is a drutham, and if there is a laghu following it, arudhi is on that laghu.

Let us add a third rule for incorporating Ata thala dual arudhis, whether it is needed for uniqueness or not.

3. If the second anga is a laghu, and if there is a drutham following it, both the laghu and drutham get the arudhi accent.

Your spreadsheet convinces me that CM thala accent requirement is quite minimalist while getting the job done. That is quite attractive. It shows that you do not really need stresses/accents on every thala anga for ensuring uniqueness. That provides for more freedom which is reflected in the laya aesthetics of the CM compositions, varnams and RTPs.

You can take a stab at the uniqueness problem with arudhi stress point alone ( put an 'x' at the arudhi alone ) in another spreadsheet and put it up for people here to shoot holes in it, if any.

[vasanthakokilam]

sriram and I collaborated over the past two days and created another spreadsheet incorporating the Arudi.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 0qpQ&gid=3

It can definitely use a review from you all and please verify if the descriptions and the arudhi designation for the thala types are correct ( especially Druva ).

Thanks.

[Nick H]

Brilliant work on the spreadsheets, very useful

[vasanthakokilam]

This link for kapAli by DKJ was posted in another thread today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogaFwrMT1p4

DKJ starts the song on 1/2 eduppu of 2 kaLai adi. Is that how it is typically done?

Applying the arudhi principle, the thala that matches closely the laya structure is 2 kaLai Thisra Matya with the eduppu on the second beat in 2 kaLai with the arudhi on 'li' of kapAli..

It seems to fit OK throughout the song as well.

Does that make sense?

[sr_iyer]

kapAli is sama eDuppu.

In the video, video leads audio by that deceptive skew. This can be made out by careful observation especially the mrdangam strokes vis-a-vis the sound.

For an obvious instance of this, in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzrqDvsG ... re=related which is part 2 of video, please observe around the 26 to 28 seconds interval, again focussing on the mrdangam strokes and sound.

[vasanthakokilam]

sr_iyer. thanks. Understood.

What is your take on the alternate thala suggestion of 2 kaLai Thisra Matya, so arudhi like stress falls on an anGA boundary ?

Also, while we are at thist, can you look at the spreadsheet at http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 0qpQ&gid=3 and see if the arudhi assignments for the various thala types are correct. ( especially the druva and ata thalas but others can use a review as well ). We were trying to show that the arudhi position alone is sufficient to disambiguate thalas of equal avartha count in this family of 35 thalas ( and the full anga structure of the thala type need not be brought in for that purpose )

[Vijayakumar]

Recently I witnessed Sikkil sister's flute concert in which they announced that "Sri ranga pura vihara" song as Tisra eka talam whereas I am seeing the same song being mentioned as set to Rupaka talam in other concerts. Are both Tisra Eka talam and Rupaka talam same for all practical purposes?

Also we see several songs being sung in alternate ragas. Is it possible to change the tala base of a song? That is, can a song set to Adi be modified/ rendered in other talas or vice versa.?

[Nick H]

Just confused today: deleting this post

[vasanthakokilam]

Nick: I assume you meant to write "tisra jAthi".

Vijayakumar, Chathusra Jathi rUpakam has to be 2 + 4, for some reason it has become OK to convert it to two avarthas of 3 beats. It obviously does not work while singing a Pallavi where the arudhi matters.

"Sri ranga pura vihara" does seem to fit tisra Eka since I do not discern a strong arudhi to warrant a front/back or before/after distinction.

[Nick H]

Nick: I assume you meant to write "tisra jAthi".

VK... I can't think what I meant: I've got so confuse that I've deleted the whole post!

[Sundar Krishnan]

30/3/12

The Excel Table created by Shriram by bunching the Multiples (= Categories), and further enhanced by vasnthakokilam's brilliant idea of adding the Arudhi Pts, in the process, postulating some rules for the Arudhi Pos etc, is really a good one, and very helpful for people like me , who want to understand things mathematically.

***************

A) A Novice Query this : If Arudhi = PAdagarbha is an important Standard CM defined term, and also since it is an important fulcrum point, would it not be shown distinctly in the detailed notations of any / each Song ?
If yes, can this be used to confirm VK's query on Arudhi's position(s) ?

***************

You have been raising yr Arudhi query for confirmation, repeatedly ...

B) I am not an expert, but to understand the Excel Table better, all by referring to just one Sheet, I thought it better to add / make these modifications : [Pl see : http://www.sendspace.com/file/b2h1f8]

1) replaced “X” Pts with :
Laghu Matras’ Counts - like 3, 4, 5, 7, 9
0 for Dhritam (this is Fixed Count of 2, so no need to show the Count)
~ for Anu-Dhritam (this is also a Fixed Count of 1, so no need to show the Count)

2) For Arudhi locations, added “(A)” at the appropriate above “X” Pts.

This way, you can immly get to know if the “A” is a “1(A)”, or a “0(A)”, or a “~(A)”, and the no of MAtrAs for the Laghu X Pts also, all in the SAME Excel Sheet Page instead of flapping pages.

Just to have completeness in the Excel Sheet, Category (Multiple =) 22 should also be added to “11” :
ie, Category 11 -> Category 11, 22

Just an Observation :
Between the Min Count of 1 (Anu-Dhritam) and the Max Count of 29, the foll 8 Counts (or Categories) : 15, 19, 21, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 do not figure in the Sapta TALam Table.

What about Arudhi Pts for Eka TALam Rows in the Excel Table ?
Either Arudhi is not applicable for Eka TALam (which I doubt), or since, it is all Laghu MAtrAs only, we can probably mark the Centre MAtrA directly ??
I have tried to mark this in the modified Excel Table – these are marked “Eka (A) ?”.
However, when we add such Center-Arudhi Pts for Eka TALam, we observe that we have a clash in the Columns of Categories / Multiples : {5, 10, 20} and {7,14}.
So, how do we resolve this ?

Also, we will have 2 Center-Arudhi pts for Chatushra-Eka ??

Also, the point about "Veechu" - pl refer PS-1 below.

***************

C) A small point :
Post # 24 : niyer states : Arudhi = ( 1+ (jaathi * kalai))
Should it instead be : Arudhi = { 1+ (Laghu MAtrAs’ Count * kalai) }

***************

D) Post # 36 : ""Shri Rangapura Vihara" does seem to fit Tishra Eka, since I do not discern a strong Arudhi to warrant a front/back or before/after distinction."
However, the Bible Ref : http://www.medieval.org/music/world/car ... ihara.html says Rupakam TALam ??

***********************

PS : It may be preferable to read this Post together with my foll Posts, also being sent today in :
- MC vs TT TALams
on MC vs TT TALams.

- 9527 - kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai
on kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai.

***********************

Thanks in Advance (TIA).

...

[Sundar Krishnan]

30/3/12

I would like to know the equivalent TaaLam name for “Jhoomra TaaLam” in Carnatic Music ?
Bindu Chawla wrote sometime in Aug 2008 in the Times Of India, under the Spiritual column :
“... Jhoomra Tala – the most viLambit ... inspired by the gait of the elephant ... 56 beats, divided into frames of 12 and 16 ... the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16 to get the rhythm going evenly ...”

The foll is an attempt to see which “might” be close :

56 = 14 x 4 Cycles ? [under ATa, KhaNda : 14 = 2 * 5 + 2 * 2 ? - Doubt it, since the ratio of “L : D” = 10 : 4 does not match with 16 : 12] ??

56 = 7 * 8 Cycles ? : There are four “7”s in the Table :
Jhampa TALam, Chatushra Jati : 1 ~ 0 :
4 for Laghu and 3 for D & AD, which matches with the ratio of 16 : 12
The other three “7”s don’t match.

Even in (Jhampa TALam, Chatushra Jati : 1 ~ 0) x 8 = 56, we don’t have 12 or 16 frames at a stretch ie, even though I have checked wrt “L : D/AD Ratio” (or, is there something better to check with ?), this match may not ?? be the one that defines Jhoomra TALam as :
“56 beats, divided into frames of 12 and 16, the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16 to get the rhythm going evenly ...”

*************

In rasikas site, I found only one ref to “Jhoomra” – under Hindustani Sangeet :
f=14&t=9613

TIA

...

[vasanthakokilam]

I do not know anything about this thala but "the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16" says that the 12 beat portion is in Trisram in reference to the chathurasram of the 16 beat portion. So it is a mixed gathi thala.

[Sundar Krishnan]

2/4/12

Thanks. Yes, it seems that it may be a case of a multiple Gatis' TALam, to have :
“the frame of 12 must be played within the time period of 16 to get the rhythm going evenly ...”

But, what Jati, what TALam in our Sapta TALam Table, comes close to it ?
I also think that a simple L : D/AD Ratio may not do in this case. My examples in Post # 39, were just to show how I attempted to check if the ratio may have a significance.

Can others also throw some light on
- CM Eqvlnt or Near-Eqvlnt of Jhoomra TALam ?

************

Any additional comments on Post # 38 above ?
- like the correctness of the modifications in the Excel Table ?
- Pt A
- Pt C etc ...

************

And on the other 2 related Threads ?? :

Post 32 in f=8&t=9527&start=25

Post 85 in f=8&t=5099&start=75 ??

...