Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Tālam & Layam related topics
violinvicky
Posts: 18
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 17:19

Post by violinvicky »

Dear Sharma Sir:

I am going through this thread from the first page. What I find is that many of your responses are truncated halfway through; The posts stop abruptly.. Therefore I miss the complete picture and am not able to understand the basics that you have explained on the subject of 'Talaprastara'.

Are these responses copied from some other thread into here..? Is there another location where the discussions are available in full..?

Following are the examples of incomplete responses that I am referring to:

"to obtain the above two key-figures, Sankhya and Mahapatala and to obtain the" .........?
"sing order of value i.e., by permuting 1-unit we will get only" .......?
"I would like to tell you another easy method. While permuting the figure" ...........?

So what should I do see the complete text of each post ..? Please Help..

With Love
Vicky
Last edited by violinvicky on 07 Nov 2009, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vicky: There is some past data corruption history.

Please post the references to the posts that are truncated to this thread: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... reads.html

The admin will see if it can be recovered.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, violinvicky, Previously me too find many of my posts are truncated and reported to the administration. But I did not get any reply.. Later, I almost forgot that and did not review the position.

But, as I have always been used to save everything of all my posts and as I have already saved entire material in my computer, if you want and if you giv e me your email address I shall certainly send it to you by email. amsharma

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Post by rajeshnat »

msakella garu
If you have saved each and every post ,then you can edit and repost it too sir.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, rajeshnat, At this age I do not have that much patience to edit the entire file. More over, every time it is truncated I cannot replay the same. Instead it is more easy to send it by email. That why I wrote accordingly. amsharma

violinvicky
Posts: 18
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 17:19

Post by violinvicky »

Dear VK:
I have alerted the moderator on the "report truncation" thread.

Dear Sharma sir:

My email id is: violinvicky@gmail.com
I would be grateful if you can send me the original text to this email address. Thanks once again.

With Love
Vicky

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, violinvicky, Just now I have sent two files on Talaprastara to your email address. Kindly acknowledge the same. amsharma

violinvicky
Posts: 18
Joined: 02 Apr 2009, 17:19

Post by violinvicky »

Dear Sharma Sir:

Yes. I have received your email with the attachments in tact. I will now start to learn the concepts from the basics and will certainly ask my doubts.

Sir, I have no words to thank Your service for a generation of new Carnatic musical learners such as myself.

With Love
Vicky

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, violinvicky, This is our culture and every Indian must always work hard to keep it in tact. That’s what I am able to do by the grace of the Almighty. Nothing else great. I shall be extremely happy if you too learn it fully and pass it on to our kids. It is not that hard to learn this topic as many others think. Chi. Vinay Sharva, a Bangalore-kid based in Chicago had swallowed the entire topic within four days only which took four decades of my life. You can also do so. Never hesitate to ask me any detail of it. I am always ready to help you. With all best wishes, amsharma

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>Chi. Vinay Sharva, a Bangalore-kid based in Chicago had swallowed the entire topic within four days only which took four decades of my life.

Sharmaji, you are in great company. When I read the above statement of yours, I was immediately reminded of what I once read about Ptolemy. He spent a few decades trying to understand what Hipparchus, Menelaus, etc. wrote about Trigonometry. He cleared up all the confusion, cleaned it up and wrote his own book. His Shishya spent 10 years learning it from him. These are now taught in one semester to 10th standard students. But that is all possible because of the giants like Ptolemy ( and early Indian mathematicians too who had worked on Trigonometry ) on whose shoulders we stand. That is the same case with your tireless life long work on Talaprasthara.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, I have passed Diploma in Music (Violin) from Andhra University in 1959. In 1961 I have appeared for an Interview for the post of Lecturer in Violin in the Govt. College of Music & Dance, Hyderabad. I may be playing well but even without any teacher-training-certificate (in those days nowhere music-teacher-training-course was available) they have appointed me in that post which helped only to successfully ruin many of the Violin aspirants for nearly 15 years. Later, I woke up a little, and then onwards my teaching abilities gradually increased by 1% yearly in a negative music environment. On the date of retirement in 1996, I can now assess, my teaching ability was not more than 20% while 35% is the minimum pass-mark. More over, adding fuel to the fire, as per our country-wide tradition, since last more than 50 years there was no academic supervision at all upon the teaching staff of the music departments or music colleges. At this juncture, just imagine the fate of my aspirants in the hands of such infficient teacher like me. However, I am successfully retired without any harm. By all this, I felt very bad of my past, and been struggling hard to rectify all my deffects and serve the kids of our music efficiencly to the maximum until my last breath. By the grace of the Almighty I am able to do so in so many ways. amsharma

kraig
Posts: 1
Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 16:57

Post by kraig »

Thank you so much for enlightening myself on the subject of Talaprasthara. I first came to this sequence of post just days ago and was having much problem because the chart was missing. I am happy to see it there now. I did attempt to figure out as much as i could. In the process I created a few charts which while they do not coincide with the one put you have so kindly provided i thought i would share as it shows it in a slightly different way that might or might not be useful. I hope i do not show disrepect by doing so.
http://anaphoria.com/tala6.gif

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

The mode of writing this table is furnished somewhere in these posts. You can follow that if you need. If you are unable to locate that I shall guide you, if you need. amsharma

Chandrashekar
Posts: 34
Joined: 01 Dec 2009, 14:28

Post by Chandrashekar »

Sorry to butt in with an off-topic comment. I was just skimming through this thread ("skimming" because of my extremely limited understanding of all these detailed discussions). But, seeing the dialogue between Sharmaji and sbala reminded me of Adi Shankaracharya's great work "Vakya Vritti" where the Guru responds to the Shishya's questions to help him progressively along the path to reaching his goal (in that case, ultimately realising "Aham Brahmasmi" by himself). This is really a great thread, in the highest traditions of our Guru-Shishya parampara, and I hope more people will gain from all the efforts that have clearly gone into it.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, Chandrashekhar, Thank you for your supportive comments. Aspirants to break this hardnut are gradually increasing, amsharma

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>But, seeing the dialogue between Sharmaji and sbala reminded me of Adi Shankaracharya's great work "Vakya Vritti" where the Guru responds to the Shishya's questions to help him progressively
>along the path to reaching his goal

Well said Chandrashekar. That is quite true. Sharmaji is a great teacher. sbala jumped in with great enthusiasm. We not only learn from Gurus but from "students" as well.

Member_First
Posts: 91
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 16:56

Post by Member_First »

We not only learn from Gurus but from "students" (piluthams..) as well.
Last edited by Member_First on 22 Dec 2009, 09:58, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

Dear sir, where may I get the books of yours, namely, 'Indian Genius in tala prasthara,' ‘Permutative genius in Tala Prasthara in Indian music' and ‘Tala prasthara of Sarngadeva's Sangita Ratnakara.' as well ‘Sangeetha Swararaga Sudha'. (The last one is on sangeethapriya I know, but I need a hardcopy for myself). If it is currently available in Chennai, I may be able to get them when I go there next time. Otherwise I could order them online.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, SrinathK, The titles, Talaprastarasagaram (Telugu) and Permutative Genius in Talaprastara in Indian Music (English) are the first ever publications on this rare topic by Sangita Academy of Andhra Pradesh and Telugu University respectively to whom I have given the right of publication of these books. Later, in the NTR Government, unlike in any other State in our country, all the Academies have been merged in Telugu University. When, in my extensive research, 80% of the subject of Talaprastara has been increased I have requested the authorities of the Telugu University to re-print them at the earliest while I am alive. Unfortunately, due to the local dirty politics, as usual, they did not respond at all positively (being straight forward, I had many such bitter experiences all along my life). Then, as more than 80% of the matter of them has been increased, I re-wrote them and published them on my own changing the titles Talaprastara Ratnakaram (Telugu) and Indian genius in Talaprastara (English).

Thus, now, the new titles are only available. Among them Indian genius in Talaprastara (English) and later publications, Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara-a critical interpretation (English) and Systematisation of Prastara details of Deshi Talas (English) are available with Karnatic music book centre, Chennai. Sangita Svararaga Sudha (English) is also available with them. You can book them even online.

If you are a resident of US I shall give you another US-address to get all these books. amsharma

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

Happy to say that I got hold of the 1st book this music season at the book centre. :D

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Hearty congratulations, dear. There are two more books to get (1.Indian Genius in Talaprastara, 2.Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara and 3.Systematisation of Prastara Details of Deshi Talas). Don’t worry, if you tell me where you reside I may be able to find any easy way to get them.

Not only in getting them you can also learn it very easily. Our people are very great in making everything difficult but not in making easy even for our own kids. It took me 40 years to get it out fully but I was able to give it to a kid from Bangalore in 40 hours, working from 7 am to 11 pm daily for 4 days with a recess for meals, refreshments and others. It is not that easy to follow that book. Just to give everything out what I came to know I was compelled to write these books in a particular manner in those days and, now at this old age, I cannot rewrite them. But, believe it or not, in the meantime I have found many easy methods for many things to give them out. Very sadly, people are unable to believe me due to their own ego. Their ego is not allowing them even to sit together and discuss things even for the betterment of our own kids and art. That is the pity of our people. We can’t help. amsharma

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

I was going through this thread last week after a long time. It reminded me of just why rasikas.org was so interesting once upon a time (I stumbled upon it in 2008) when we had so many people sharing and learning so much about music in one place. By that yardstick the overall level of the discussions has indeed declined - people are growing older, many others have passed on, some people no longer come here, many topics have been exhausted, the General Musical discussions page is often synonymous with the lounge, of late there is only a lot of talk if Sangeetha Kalanidhi or TMK comes up and the fraction of venomous air polluting species :mrgreen: seems to have increased a little, while there is a lot more music out there, there is a lot less sharing now...

The related disciplines section however is going on strong as ever. :D

Anyway I digress - all that can be fixed with some fresh energy. I came here to make a point on why certain combinations of rhythmic patterns can't be talas in the modern tala system, which while it has been explained before, I feel needs to be explained a little more clearly.

Take the 16 combinations adding up to 5

5
14
23
113
32
122
212
1112
41
131
221
1121
311
1211
2111
11111

Now, from numbers to actual talangas. If we take the value of Anudhrutam = 1 count, then Dhrutam = 2. If we go for chatushra jaathi, then Laghu = 4, Guru = 8, Plutam = 12 and Kakapadam = 16

It's plain obvious that only the 1st 3 of these 6 are possible here.

And owing to the length of each talanga, only the combinations containing the numbers 1,2 and 4 are permissible. Combinations containing 3 and 5 are not. That eliminates 6 of these 16 and they cannot be rendered as talas, because of this pesky filter called jaathi.

It is possible to throw out the rule book, but then these talas are not a part of the system. They can be called chandas (meters) instead.

It may be argued that 3+2 may be rendered with samyuktangas as Dhruta virAmam + dhrutam, but there is a problem with this.

First, originally the word viraama referred to an element that was half the length of whatever talanga it was attached to. That would work only with chatushra jaathi where Laghu (4), Guru(8), Plutam(12) and Kakapadam(16) had an even number of counts.

This viraamam later became identical to the anudhrutam, which is basically an extra beat before whichever talanga it is attached to. Redundant isn't it?

Now here's the interesting part -- there is a rule that a tAlanga starts with one audible beat. All other counts after that are supposed to be silent. The exception is the kAkapadam, which is totally silent. The tala system was designed this way to measure out the lengths of each talanga properly. Yes I know that no one in practice ever puts a tala like that, but practice = what is convenient.

This is actually the reason why the finger counts for laghu and the handwaving for dhrutam exist. This wasn't done on mere whim. There is a fair bit of thought and research that went into investigating all the movements possible with the hands and how to count in a structured manner with that. I have for a long time been trying to find out how to count on my feet and so I can get the idea.

When tAlangas are combined, the resulting pattern has more than 1 audibly struck beat. If you want to avoid this, the way in which the talangas are rendered on the hands has to be compromised.

Therefore a 3+2 pattern in chatushra jaathi (5th combination), if attempted, will end up as a 1+2+2 (6th combination in the list) or a 2+1+2 (7th), which fundamentally alters the original combination. The original 3+2 pattern is lost and cannot be rendered.

In other words, samyuktanga is fundamentally redundant. You end up rendering it as another pattern adding up to the same total anyway.

Therefore while Anudhrutam + Dhrutam + Dhrutam is possible (1+2+2) and allowed, a direct 3+2 simply does not exist in chatushra jaathi. So while it is possible to trace out which combination of 5 is 1+2+2 (or deduce the pattern from the serial number), the serial number of 3+2 cannot be found because it is not possible.

However, in tisra jaathi, it is possible to render a 3+2 as a Laghu+Dhrutam as L = 3 counts in tisra jaathi. But here, none of the combinations containing 5 or 4 are possible.

This method of trying to understand this topic through numbers first before using actual talangas is special - because it's only covered in this thread. It's not in the book I have. By covering it through numbers, automatically all the keys to mastery of tala and laya is right here in this one topic.
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Jul 2018, 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

As this permutation is of ‘5’ units, if we write these permutations in terms of Talangas, we have to write Anudruta with figure ‘1’, Druta with figure ‘2’ and Laghu with figure ‘5’. Thus, the permutations carrying these three figures can only be treated as (7) Talas and all others carrying the figures ‘3 & 4” have to be written with ‘Samyuktangas’ and treated as (9) Chando-rupas. amsharma

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

Small clarification - if it is of 5 units, does it mean I have to compulsorily take khaNDa jAti laghu of 5 counts? I was using chatushra jAti laghu of 4 counts.

On counting, I think there are 8 out of 16 patterns which are valid tALAs in khaNda jAti.
5
122
212
1112
221
1121
1211
2111

On a side note, do laghus of 6,8, 10 or 12 counts exist? Logically there is no reason why jAtis can be more than 5, although this itself is enough for several lifetimes.

EDIT : 11111 is the 9th pattern.
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Jul 2018, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear Brother-member, SrikanthK,

Many of our musicians think that there is only Chaturashra (4) and accordingly brought out Shodashangas (16) which is absolutely incorrect.

Here we must take Khanda-jati-Laghu only. But, who are not aware of the Tala-prastara will write Laghu-virama (4+1=5) which is not correct.

Why did you leave away the ‘11111’, the last one I do not understand. By that, in total, there are ‘9’.

Also there are additional Laghus, Divya-sankeera (6), Mishra-sankeerena (8), Deshya-sankeerna 10), Mishra-deshya-sankeerna (12) and Deshya-shuddha-sankeerna (16). amsharma

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

That was a mistake. 11111 is the 9th pattern

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 78
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

In one book of Mister Akella the serial numbers of some carnatic talas are given , for ex :

~~~~ The serial number of Rupaka Tala ( angas : 2 4 ) is 3 .

So according to the tables , I think this corresponds to

1) __ 6
2) _1 5
3) _ 2 4

2-4 is the third combination for 6 units , according to the process of Akhanda-Prastara , Sankhya mode ( if I understood correctly ) .



~~~~~ The serial number of Tishra Rupaka Tala ( angas : 2 3 ) is 3 .

1) 5
2) 1 4
3) 2 3

2-3 is the third combination for 5 units .

Not sure if i am right .

(Whichever way I write , I can not get to align the rows nicely ....)

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

You are absolutely right, dear. The digits you have to follow from the right to left only. amsharma

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 78
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

Thanks for confirming , Sir !

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

I am glad to make a momentous discovery. I cracked the serial number of Simhanandana's rhythmic pattern.

The Serial Number of Simhanandana Tala's underlying numerical pattern (note, I meant NUMERICAL PATTERN, which is
8 8 4 12 4 8 2 2 8 8 4 12 4 12 8 4 4 16 = 128 counts is

The 2,768,588,535,255,736,445,300,122,568,917,121 st permutation

out of a possible 2^127 or 170,141,183,460,469,231,731,687,303,715,884,105,728 permutations total that add up to 128 counts. (For the computer geeks out there, this is equal to half the number of IPv6 addresses on the planet.)

This is not however it's actual serial number in terms of tAlAngas because this is done using numbers starting with
128
1 127
2 126
1 1 126 etc... and not tAlAngas.

If it were tAlAngas, the permutations would start from

K K K K K K K K
L P K K K K K K K
D D P K K K K K K K
A A D P K K K K K K K and so on.... that calculation is for another day...but I assure you the number will be of a much smaller size ... phew!

Therefore, do I become the 2nd person to calculate the serial number of this tALA?

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

The serial number of Simhanandana-tala in Samyuktanga-prastara, you got and furnished here, is correct and you are the 3rd person (2nd one being Chi. Vijaya Raghava from Bangalore) to do so. Do remember that I got all these umpteen calculations when no calculator or computer was within my reach.

There are three modes of permutations, Panchanga-prastara in which Anudrutas are absent, Shadanga-prastara consisting of Anudrutas also and Samyuktanga-prastara consisting of all Talangas including combinative-angas. While all the other two modes of permutations are also covered, Samyuktanga-prastara is the ultimate.

But, while the serial number of Sharabhanandana-tala must be obtained from Samyuktanga-prastara only as it consists of combinative (Samyuktangas) angas also, the serial number of Simhanandana-tala, which must be rendered with all the five Talangas except Anudruta, could be obtained both from Panchanga and Samyuktanga-prastaras. You have already furnished its serial number in Samyuktanga-prastara. But, try to furnish the Panchanga-prastara also. amsharma

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK »

msakella : The serial number of Simhanandana-tala in Samyuktanga-prastara, you got and furnished here, is correct and you are the 3rd person (2nd one being Chi. Vijaya Raghava from Bangalore) to do so. Do remember that I got all these umpteen calculations when no calculator or computer was within my reach.
:D :D Ok. And one other thing, the serial number in reverse permutation (samyuktAnga) will be :

Permutation number : 170,138,414,871,933,975,995,242,003,593,315,188,608

I totally agree on the sheer difficulty of this. Even on a computer, there are only some websites on the internet which allow you to add very big numbers. https://www.calculator.net/big-number-calculator.html

The exact value of the powers of 2 are available here : http://www.tsm-resources.com/alists/pow2.html

Without a calculator it would have taken at least 1-2 months or more of hard labor to do this exercise (and many more years of research before that because the descriptions in the old texts are very hard to understand while the same thing could be shown in a much simpler manner using mathematics). All the powers of 2 up to 128 need to be calculated, then the relevant proxies need to be identified and added up. But now that you have brought it out it has become easier to understand with some effort.

Now I understand slowly how the logic works for tAlAngas. Maybe in future I will be able to (With the help of the computer of course) do it for both 6 angas and 5 angas in both forward and reverse permutations and see how it works.

I have read on this forum that there are tAlAs longer than the Simhanandana. By any chance, are their tAlAngas available? This is for my curiosity.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Had there been a restriction that each and every Tala must be provided with the authentic serial-number of Prastara nobody would not have dared to bring out any new Tala. But, in the absence of the knowledge of this Prastara everybody took the liberty of bringing out as many Talas as any one could.

In the same manner even the Great Sharngadeva brought out a new list of 120 Talas in which, along with all other old Talas and some of his other new Talas together, he had included one Tala in his own name and another Tala in his title, Shargadeva-tala and Nisshanka-tala (in fact while Sharngadeva had already made a mess of this topic, adding fuel to the fire, Vasudeva Shastry included his mess and later even his daughter still included her mess too. But, as nobody is bothered either to disscuss all these things or to give the authentic version to the society this mess will never come into light). In the same manner even the author of Sangeeta Suryodaya, Bhandaru Lakshmeenaarayana, apart from these 120 Talas of Sangeeta Ratnakara, brought out another list of 120 new Talas in which the last two Talas in his name and title like of Sharngadeva.

Even though I may have 5 or 6 lists of Talas all I wrote them long long ago in Telugu and, at this old age, I am not in a position either to search them all or to type them in English. Very vaguely I remember (not names) one or two Talas carrying around 500 units as against 128 units of Simhanandana. amsharma.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Interesting information of Talaprastara:
01.Since many centuries no author of any language had ever furnished the correct definition of Nashta or Uddishta or even Kalitha in his work which are very crucial to answer the form of the Talangas of any permutation carrying a particular serial number in question or the serial number of the permutation carrying a particular form of Talangas in question or the full details of all the different Talangas utilised in the process of permutation upto the Tala carrying a particular serial number in question respectively as none of them was aware of them. But, very sadly, even in the absence of this crucial knowledge many of the authors became bold enough to create and furnish quite a number of Talas of their own choice along with their new names and respective Talangas in their respective works.

02. In this above manner, prior to Sangita Ratnakara written by Nihshanka Sharngadeva in 12th century, while there was the list of 108 Deshi-talas only, this author had another idea to aggrandise his work by including 12 more new Talas of his choice along with their new names and Talangas in which two Talas are named after his title (Nihshanka-tala) and his name (Shargadeva-tala).

03. Moreover, adding fuel to the fire, Nihshanka Sharngadeva, the Great had also altered two tables, Druta-meru and Samyoga-meru by which I had to waste many years of my invaluable time in getting the correct version of them. Ultimately, I have found the correct version of Druta-meru in Gayakalochanam written in 20th century by Tacchur Singaracharya Bros., and basing upon a logical plan I could myself find the original version of the Samyoga-meru on my own. These versions of Druta-meru and Samyoga-meru are furnished in pages 106 and 110 of my book, Indian Genius in Talaprastara.

However, my friend and retired Professor of Madras University, and Dr.N.Ramanathan held a Conference on Sangita Ratnakara at Madras (without inviting me or even informing me) in which his teacher Dr.Premlatha Sharma and Prof.Herald Powers have participated and Prof.Powers in his final report said "One thing which struck me particularly, I must confess, is that I found the Tala-chapter singularly uninteresting. It is full of a long list of things we don't do anymore, probably it is just as well that we don't....". But, even the copy of the book released in this connection wasn't sent to me.

Late Pandit Subrahmanya Shastry already made a mess of the Adyar's earlier version of the Tala-chapter of Sangita Ratnakara and later his daughter, Smt. S.Sharada, while revising it made a more mess of it. In 1969, even before her revision when I addressed to the respective librarian of the Adyar Library, Mrs.Seetha Neelakanthan and requested to send me the revised MSS she replied "Smt.Sharada is highly versed in the science of music, theory and practice, and we feel there is no need to send the MSS to you for further scrutiny". Thus, while nobody bothers about the correctness of our great cultural heritage the later edition was also released with many more corrections than her father's edition.

04. Among the 17 works in which this Talaprastara was eloborated while the Sangita Ratnakara (Sanskrit-12th century) only furnished more information than all others, the Taladashapranapradeepika (16th century) furnished with Telugu-poems but without any figures at all and the Gayakalochanam furnished with many tables and figures but without any definitions at all. But, by the list of 158 new Talas furnished in Gayakalochanam (which are also reproduced by Dr.B.M.Sundaram in his list of 1000 Talas of Talasangraha but without these serial-numbers as he was not aware of them as serial-numbers) along with new-names, Talangas and for the first time in the history of our Indian Music with authentic serial-numbers it has obviously been proved that these authors, Tacchur Singaracharya Bros., are well-versed with the latent secrets of this Talaprastara. But, most unfortunately, they did never reveal them in any of their works.

05. In page 238 of his 'Sangita Ratnakara - A Study' of R.Rangaramanuja Iyyengar published in 1978 he wrote 'The numbers in the columns convey no clear idea of their significance. The two commentaries, Kallinatha and Simhabhupala, contradict each other in explaining the chart. The practical application of Patala to rhythm as a whole has to be determined by competent research' and in page 106 of his another book 'History of South Indian (Carnatic) Music' he wrote 'The forms are obsolete. The text is obscure. The two commentaries are vague and contradictory. Research gets stuck up in a tantalising bottle neck'. In spite of all this I have very successfully demonstrated this Talaprastara in the Music Academy, Chennai in December, 1984 for the first time in the history and I have also donated a copy of this to their library. But, in spite of all this, till now, no proper action has ever been taken to suitably modify the definition of this topic, at the least, in all the syllabi of their Music Examinations.

06. In Sangita Suryodaya (Sanskrit-16th century) written by Bhandaru Lakshminarayana, even though he had reproduced the 120 Talas of Sangita Ratnakara surprisingly omitted the last two Talas named after the title (Nihshanka-tala) and the name (Shargadeva-tala) of Sharngadeva but didn't forget either to furnish another list of 121 Talas along with new names and Talangas of his own or to includetwo Talas named after his own title (Bharatakuleshwara-tala) and his own name (Lakshmanaahvaya-tala) in his list.

07. The author Bhandaru Lakshminarayana of Sangita Suryodaya was the court- musician of Shri Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagar empire (1509 - 1529) and he was honoured with Kanakabhisheka and Simhatalaata by the King. But, along with many other minor mistakes there are umpteen major blunders also to be rectified.

In fact many of these mistakes and blunders were brought to the notice of the editor, Shreev Kaamathaprasaad Thripaatheeji of Indirakala Sangita Vishwavidyalaya, Khairagarh. But, in the absence of any response from him I have again brought them to the notice of the then Vice Chancellor, Dr. Premlatha Sharma of the same University and she responded and agreed to pass them on to him. But, even later what happened God alone knows.

08. While some figures relating to Talaprastara furnished in Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini of Subbarama Dikshitar are mis-printed in the original Telugu version of it I have furnished the correct figures of them to Dr.N.Ramanathan and they were modified accordingly in the next print but this was not acknowledged by them at the time of re-printing.

Interested parties can try to rectify the above in keeping our cultural heritage in tact. amsharma
9908822992

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by rajeshnat »

Akella gaaru
I have no knowledge and understanding but looks you were sincere to present your viewpoints. You must put all these posts either in a blog or your sishyas can start a website for you and put all your thesis.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Dear brother,
Thanks a lot for your kind suggestion.
Most of our people are interested only in getting the information. But they are not that interested to act accordingly and sincerely. Very rarely there may be a person who does something actively and sincerely. Only for this person I would like to give all this information. I have my own experiences in this respect. amsharma

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Now, presently i am trying to make this rarest topic in
this thread easily readable, followable, understandable and implementable in the interest of our poor aspirants as this Samyuktanga-prastara, which has never been defined fully in any treatises of any language on the globe. Moreover this has been brought out by me when either the calculator or the computer are not available at all. msakella

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

20210408:
Even though my old age may not allow me to do, i wanted to try to make this thread readable, understandable, followable and implementable in the interest of our poor aspirants. But, very sadly, as usual, none had shown any interest and responded positively. Hence, as there is no meaning in taking this trouble at this juncture, i have dropped my idea to remain in peace. msakella

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

20210512:
However, having recently received some positive response through a close friend of mine i have fulfilled my responsibility of possibly modifying it and sent it leaving the decision to the Admins themselves. msakella

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

20210512:
Just now i have received a message that the Admins
kindly agreed to carry out the changes in this thread in the interest of the poor aspirants and also the subject.

I also hereby thank my friend Chi Chandramouli (Vasanthakokilam) and also the Admins for doing the needful in the interests of both our aspirants and the subject. msakella

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Talaprasthara (Combinatorics)

Post by msakella »

Most unfortunately even after two months nothing has been done. msakella

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