Misra Chapu Vs Trisra Triputa

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vasanthakokilam
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Misra Chapu Vs Trisra Triputa

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Is the Thala of the Patdeep Pallavi Tisra Triputa or Misra Chapu. For some odd reason, I naturally gravitated to Misra Chapu and the stress points seems to fit OK. I then checked Kartik's song list and he mentions it as Tisra Triputa. Obviously, there is an akshara count relationship/sameness between the two thalas. I usually flounder around in keeping the thala for Misra Chapu let alone easily detect misra chapu. But in this case, the then-n pa-zha-ni va-di ve-eh la-ne-eh fit naturally with dhi-mi tha-ki-ta tha-ka dhi-mi tha-ki-ta . That will make it an athitha eduppu Misra chapu ( Miscra chapu goes like tha-ki-ta tha-ka dhi-mi ). This is not quite common for a pallavi, so it is probably intended to be tisra triputa 2 kalai 1/2 eduppu which is more mainstream, but I thought I will ask.


Mod Note: Ref: Sanjay's Patdeep RTP in thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4880&p=1: The posts relating to the Misra Chapu vs Tisra Triputa thala have now been moved to this new thread.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK it was Tistra Triputa although I am not sure of the Eduppue - perhaps I will listen again and clarify. As you have indicated Misra Chapu and Tisra triputa are both mutliples of seven and the latter if often reduced to the former in RTP's (although not in this case).

Eduppu for Misra Chapu is most often on 1st, 3rd and 4th matras.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay: Thanks. I did not know that Tisra Triputa is often reduced to Misra Chapu in RTPs.

OK, I understand the kriyas matched Tisra Triputa in this rendition. To me, Tisra triputa gives the same "linear" feel that other laghu based talas give whereas Misra Chapu songs have that little stutter step indicative of the uneven length between major stress points. In that sense, I consider the thalas to be quite different. When you listen to it again, can you see if you also feel that this pallavi ( at least during the initial portions ) has more of the Misra Chapu stutter step feel than a linear equally spaced feel that is common with the suladi saptha thalas?

(Getting on a little rant mode, My pet-peeve is, even for songs that has a distinct structure that matches misra chapu uniquely, when they go into kalpanaswaram and the thani, they disregard this 'unequal" outer beat structure and break it down into the sub-unit level thereby normalizing it to a 7*4=28 count thala which can fit tisra triputa or misra chapu or anything else..So it is really hard to tell from the thani if they are playing for Misra Chapu or Tisra Triputa... I am ready to be corrected if this is a mistaken impression ).

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK, I analyzed the Pallavi again. The broad structure is as follows:

La - 2 (Samam)
Ne - 2
Then - 4 (Eduppu)
Pa - 2
Zha - 2
Ni - 2
Va - 2
Di - 2
Ve - 4
La - 2
Ne - 14 (Ardhi)
Dei - 4
Va - 4
Ne - 4
Man - 2
Na - 4
(La Ne)

This adds up to 56 which is a multiple of both Tisra Triputa and Misra Chapu.

Looking at the structure, if you start from the Eduppu ("Then Pazhani") and consider it, the first beat (Veechu) of a Misra Chapu Tala, it fits in quite welll with an accent on "Ne" of "Velane" after the second Veechu at "Vela". The lesson is - it is not possible to distinguish a tala with precision by just listening to it although an educated guess can be made. In this case, the fact that it is a pallavi (where Misra Chapu is "usually" not taken) and the long Karvai at "Ne" of "Velane" are give-aways. It is usually advisable to look for the Ardhi when listening to a Pallavi and the mrudanga sollus (for Nadai Pallavis).

About your last point, in mel kaalam swaras it is not possible to mark out the veechu clearly although if you listen to the mrudangam closely enough the Misra Chapu pattern wiith the accent on the veechu is discernible as against Tisra Triputa. The inequality equally applies to Tisra Triputa - it is only a slower version of Misra Chapu and the "unequal structure" equally applies to the former. There is also no obligation on the performer or mrudangist to emphaize the veechu and in the many permutations and combinations of swaras/tani it is quite Ok to "go against the grain"- in fact in tanis, counter-intuitive passages are an essential creative ingredient. Following songs is a different matter. Once again, mathematical correlation is not a foolproof method of identifying talas.

Regarding CML's clip, the basic structure seem quite similar to Patdeep - P,G2M1,PS,,N3SR2G2~...is the basic refrain. Although the usage of SRG is gramatically incorrect, it is a film song and no rules apply...one can equally argue that it is Gowrimanohari...

As mentioned before Patdeep is nothing but Karnataka Devagandhari/Bhimplas with N3. Kaapi would also sound similar thanks to N3 but has a completely different flavour because of many foreign notes and characteristic usages.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay, thanks for the detailed analysis. That makes sense.

Since I was going by the rhythmic feel, I actually aligned the pallavi with misra chapu differently. If you consider Misra chapu as (TA-KI-TA) (TA-KA) (DHI-MI), to me, pa-zha-ni mapped to the THA-KI-TA portion. That indeed places the arudhi on the 'KI of THA-KI-TA which is quite odd structurally but somehow it felt comfortable. I was not going by the swara count itself but more by the musical stress points.
The inequality equally applies to Tisra Triputa - it is only a slower version of Misra Chapu
How so? I thought the 35-thala system does not allow unequal beat intervals ( and hence does not allow unequal major musical stresses ) where as misra chapu having folk origins has that in-bult unequal stress durations in THA-KI-TA THA-KA DHI-MI ( the bold points where the major stress falls ). But I see you are saying something significant there which I would like to understand.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK, as you rightly observe, if you have Ta-ki-ta at (Pa-zha-ni), the "Ne" of "Velane" would fall at a very awkward point.

Re your second point, I have nothing very significant to say. Tisra Triputa is a 3+4 Tala just like Misra Chapu - 3+4 is no more equal or unequal than 1.5+2. In both, the basic structure is 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2 with the stresses on the 1s (although this is not necessairly true for either tala - many songs in Misra Chapu take off on 4th matra) In Misra Chapu, the whole thing occurs faster, that's all.

The confusion may be caused by the fact that Ta-ki-ta of misra chapu as rendered as one kriya which gives an impression of an "unequal structure". But this has no more significance than being a convenient way of keeping time. The proportion of matras in the 2 halves and the stresses are the same. As an illustration, take a geetham, say Kamala Jadhala, and try it in durita kala in Misra Chapu - you will see how neatly it fits!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vijay wrote:As an illustration, take a geetham, say Kamala Jadhala, and try it in durita kala in Misra Chapu - you will see how neatly it fits!
I have also scratched my head as to why miSra cApu "seems different" from tiSra tripuTa (to me, like vk) - although is hard to categorize as if you look at it in one way they are the same.

I think tiSra tripuTa is identical to miSra cApu if the former is rendered in gItam mode i.e. 1 swara per akshara. That is one reason why kamala jAdaLa can be easily put in miSra cApu. So one can in "first speed" tiSra tripuTa becomes ta-ki-Ta ta-ka-dhi-mi (ta-ki-Ta: 1-2-3 for the laghu, ta-ka: 4-5 for the first part of dhrutam, dhi-mi:6-7 for the second part). Then it becomes obvious why this is identical to miSra cApu.

But how do they compare in "second" speed? I am not 100% sure of this but I think in mEl kAlam in miSra cApu becomes ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-ju-Nu? But tIsra triputA? Also in tiSra tripuTa - you can space it real slow and do ta-ka-di-mi 7 times. This while theoretically possible in miSra cApu - would be quite hard to do. How about "2-kaLai" tiSra tripUta? I can certainly visualize this like 2-kaLai Adi. Again mathematically you could put miSra cApu but musically/rhythmically will it fit the same way?

So in my guess opinion, miSra cApu <=> tIsra tripuTa in some cases but may be not all to say they are truly equivalent? Even if strict mathematically they are equivalent, in practice, in music, they have different manifestations?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 03 Mar 2008, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Arun naturally they give a different musically - 2 kalai Tisra Triputa in particular I feel would be suitable only for vilamba kala krithis (can't think of examples - it is not very commonly used, probably because of Misra Chapu). Misra Chapu is more versatile and can be used for Madhyamakala as well as Vilambam (Swarajathis for example). OTOH Misra Jhampa/Khanda Chapu is an example of talas with common divisors but different stress structures (1/3 KHanda Chapu and 1/8/9 Misra Jhampa).

In the end however, a tala is just a number/suggested stress structure for the composer to play with. In most cases they prefer the obvious stress points. Tyagaraja's 1 Kalai adi tala krithis with 2.5 eduppu being a case in point. OTOH Thyagaraja himself mastered the Ardhi -1/2 stress points in his 2 Kalai Adi tala krithis. Syama Shastri has masterfully woven Chatusram into Tisra Adi in Samkari Sankuru. Deeskhitar has used khandam structure for "Venkateshwara Nama Rupena" in the Madhyamakala of his Suddha Dhanyasi Krithi which takes off at 1/4 beat (thus adding upto 1+5x3 = 16).

To sum up, the major talas do have a certain "feel" attributable to the krithis composed in these talas. The familiarity of the structure (let us say the 2.5 eduppu/Desadi or 4th matra Misra Chapu eduppu to cite 2 cases where I instantly latch on) and the standard mrudangam patterns, helps us identify these talas even when listening to a recording of an unfamiliar kriti (not to mention the sound of the performer keeping time!) but there is no obligation on the composer to follow these and sometimes compositions are almost deliberately misleading! In RTP's it is all the more so, since they are designed to be rhythmically complex especially when trikaalam/tisram etc. are to be renedered.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, Vijay: Thanks. It has been educational. I never looked at the 3+2+2 pattern of misra chapu in the same vein as the 3+2+2 of thisra triputa, though I was conscious of the overall mathematical relationship of the total counts.( strange, I know ). And, Arun's illustration of why the Geetham way makes them equivalent. I think that is the crux of the issue. At the sub-beat level, may be thee are equivalent but not at the outer beat level. In geethams, the beat and sub-beat are the same since there is only one sub-beat per outer beat.

The outer beat has to have mega significance since it is inbuilt into the song and we can feel it. If we ignore them and go down to the sub-beat level we are ignoring a hugely major aspect of the rhythm.

Here is how I would like to map it. Let the various sollus be equal length and represented by numbers

1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 ( Misra Chapu )
1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 ( Tisra Triputa )

The ones in bold are the major stress points ( the outer beats ). The two do not match at many points. So the same song with a given set of stress points can not be overlaid on both stress point scales. To me that is a test that two stress point scales ( talas ) are not equivalent.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK I am not familiar with too many krithis in Tisra Triputa. However the major beats are the same as Misra Chapu - i.e 1/4/6 as per your first example...this is certainly the case in the Kalyani geetham. However there is no hard and fast rule (or any sort of rule at all for that matter) and it can very well follow the structure in your second example. However a Misra Chapu song following the same would be awkward - this is purely a result of the speed at which the taala is renedered.

Since Tisra triputa is rare, I don't think we can readily pin down a "standard structure" for the taala...but I am willing to be educated....

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay, What you are referring to are the major stress poitns that occur in the arudhi/drutham which is a separate (but significant ) aesthetic aspect. I am limiting myself to the outer beat stress.

I messed up my example. I really wanted to show the stress points on the outerbeat (along with showing the innerbeat ) and my example did not capture that. . Here is the redone example.

1 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 ( Misra Chapu )
1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 ( Tisra Triputa )

I have changed the meaning of the numbers. Each beat and its constituent sub-beats have the same number and the outer beat points are in bold.
I chose 2 inner beats per outer beat of TT. The inner beat lengths are the same in both the thalams.

Is the above a fair representation of the relationship between MC and TT as they are normally perceived, like two cycles of misra chapu for one cycle of tisra triputa. Now, there are only 6 outer beat points in MC whereas there are 7 outer beat points in TT and as you can see the outer beat points do not line up.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Inner/Outer beat - VK, not very familiar with this terminology - presume you mean the 1.5 to be the outer beat and "1+1" to be the inner beats....in any case, your example for Misra Chapu is right - that is how the stress patterns occur...another important stress point (or rather eduppu point) as I have mentioned is, 4th matra or .75 beat (Etula Brotuvo, Pakkala Nilabadi, Akshaya Linga Vibho, Nidhi Tsala Sukhama and countless others)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I have now redone by example to present my question clearly ( hopefully ). Let us not bring the arudhi stress for both the thalas yet. Also, vijay, my menaing of outerbeat/inner beat is not the same as you understood. ( I am referring to the akshara/mathra type relationship for outer/inner )

vijay
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Post by vijay »

VK I think I understood your original example correctly in terms of the stresses. Also regarding inner/outer beat, I think I now understand - you mean beats which are reproduced (except the 3rd beat of M Chapu which is not "shown")....perhaps primary/secondary beats would be a better term.

Regarding your Qs.

1) For 2 kalai Tisra Triputa Taalam (7*2*4 = 56) you would have 4 cycles of M Chapu (14*4) and not 2 (14*2). Presume this is just an oversight.

2) The point about the number of inner/outer beats (or primary/secondary beats) is correct but I am not sure they have any particular significance or whether such a classicaition is recognized (as against a "kriya" which is different). For example beat 2 and 7 of the Tisra Triputa which are bolded do not represent stress points - as noted above, that would be the same as Misra Chapu (Going back to Kamala Jadala for want of a better example!). In particular, emphasis on the 7th beat, followed by one on the 1st strikes me intuitively inelegant.

Just to bring back some perspective on the original point: whether this outer beat structure is unequal - it now dawns on me that it depends on the concept of an"outer beat". In particular, you seem to classify the 2nd beat of Misra Chapu (actually matra 3 or the second "1" in your Misra Chapu example) as being an outer beat whereas beat 2 of Tisra Triputa (the first "2" in your example) is an inner beat. As I said, I am not sure about the validity of such a classification and therefore, the conclusion that the inequality is somehow different.

Once again this is not to say that the second beat of a Tisra Triputa cannot be stressed. AFAIK, no rules apply here. It is upto the composer's aesthetic sense. But obviously Misra Chapu, being a shorter tala, will have more limitations on stress points than a 2 kalai Tisra Triputa. It is, in fact, this shorter duration which emphasizes the "unequal structure" whereas in a Vilamba Kala Tisra Triputa, the inequality gets obfuscated. Is this the point you were trying to get at?

Interestingly in HM the Rupak Tala has the same structur as well :- "Tin" Tin Na /" Dhin" Na "Dhin" Na with bols in quotes being emphasized

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Just to sum up my PoV after that rather laboured post:

1) Misra Chapu and Tisra Triputa are structurally similar in their respetive halves and "suggest" the same stress points. However Tisra Triputa, being slower, allows more flexibility
2) This does not mean krithis in these talas should, therefore, have the same stress structure.
3) This does not mean that they have to be different
4) Stress structure of a song is the function of a composer's aesthetic sense and is not dictated by any tala although certain stresses may be implied. The composer is free to acknowledge or ignore these. Same goes for Pallavis and other manifestations of Manodharma.

Net, net, the akshara count of a tala is fixed. Eduppu of a song/line is fixed. The rest is fair game...

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay, thanks. I think I can relate to some of the summary items above. I am not sure if we are in sync on what I meant by outer/inner beats etc. I know it is not a standard terminology.

Let me put it another way.. I look at Misra chapu as a mixed nadai thala. The first beat has three sub-beats and the next two beats have two sub-beats each. Tisra Tripua has the same nadai ( # of sub-beats ) for all its beats.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

OK...I'll let you explain inner/outer beats some other day!

As for mixed nadai, once again it is an illusion of the faster rhtythm of Misra Chapu. If you play/keep tie to Tisra Triputa fast enough, you will get the same "mixed nadai". Also the sub-division of the beats in both talas is still 4 - Misra chapu 3.5*4 = 14 and Tisra Triputa 7*4 = 28 (I kalai). So both are in Chatushram throughout the cycle.

In your own example, Tisra Triputa also has the same sub beat structure as Misra Chapu

Kriya 1 = Laghu = 3 sub beats
Kriya 2 - Drutam - 2 sub beats
Kriya 3 - Drutam - 2 sub beats

This is the point I'm trying to make. This how you need to look at beats/sub beats or inner/outer beats in the two talas. But in the end as Arun says I guess you can look at it as as similar, or same, or different...and be right in your own way!

cienu
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Post by cienu »

What a wonderful thread ! Kudos to Vijay , Arunk , VK , Uday, CML and others who have made this so enjoyable.Mods may consider shifting this thread to the Tala & Laya Forum , lest it remains buried under Kutcheri review :)
Last edited by cienu on 05 Mar 2008, 12:39, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay;

As I wrote before, you made me see the 'similar' structure of 3+2+2 in both MC and TT. Also illustrative was the other point you made earlier that khanda chapu and misra jampa are not 'similar' in that sense even though both pairs have that 2:1 mathematical relationship. Great.


I like your way of representing TT. Let me recast the picture with TT & MC to show the essence of the difference as I see it. ( I think you also said as much )

TT

Kriya 1 - Laghu = 3 beats
Kriya 2 - Drutam - 2 beats
Kriya 3 - Drutam - 2 beats

MC

Kriya 1 - 1 beat with 3 sub beats
Kriya 2 - 1 beat with 2 sub beats
Kriya 3 - 1 beat with 2 sub beats

As you said, the difference boils down to whether you give different musical significance ( in terms of stress ) to beats and sub-beats. You seem to treat beats and sub-beats uniformly and hence hold the equivalence of the two thalas.

I believe that a song has inherent major stresses at each beat that is distinguishable from any stress that may exist at a sub-beat. ( The fact that there are quantitative differences in that major stress at the Samam, Arudhi, drutham beats is a different matter ). May be it is a mistaken belief but If that does not exist, how come we can instinctivly put the beat at those beat points ( and not just at the beginning of angas or arudhis ) without any external aid ( i.e in the absence of a mridangam and the singer showing any indication of thalam )? Also, if the beat boundary does not exist ( to distinguish between beats and sub-beats ), then nadai would not be perceivable musically.

( In the interest of full disclosure, the main weakness in my model of thinking is, most CM songs in misra chapu do not really sound like a mixed nadai rhythm. I wonder if this is due to the mainstream CM, while borrowing the Misra Chapu thala structure from Folk music, have flattened it out and eliminated that mixed nadai stress structure. I think there are a few Thiruppugazh songs that do give that mixed nadai feel . And for some strange reason, the Sanjay pallavi line gave me the mixed nadai feel, which was the start of this whole discussion ).


Note: Once this thread activity subsides, I will move the TT, MC discussion to the Tala section but we can continue the discussion here for now.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Thanks Cienu! I too am enjoying this immensely and the process does help clarify one's understanding and thought process to which I am indebted to the other especially VK..

Coming back, I am not saying that the 2 talas are equivalent but similar in structure, that is all. As I said before, the feel of a 2 kalai TT would be very different from MC but I maintain that this is purely because of tempo and not structure.

About your point on stresses, not sure if I am getting this right but let me respond anyway. We instinctively put beats at those points because 1) Kriyas like Laghu would be too long (esp in 2 kalai) and most people would lose track of time and 2) We are conditioned to do so. This may or may not follow the stress structure of the song. Let us take examples of Adi 2 Kalai -

1st line of the Pallavi of Ramakatha Sudha...the stresses occur at the following points (assuming a 16 beat cycle) - "Ra"(2) "Ma" (3.5) Ka"Tha" (5) Su"dha" (8)...similarly Enduku Peddala - "En"(2) "Du" (3.5) "Ku" (4)" U"(5) "Pe" (6) Da"la"(8)...a certain rhythmic preference of Thyagaraja clearly comes through (most streses are at sub beats). Take Deekshitar in the same Adi 2 Kalai - Maragathavallim. "Ma"(1) "Ra"(2) "Ga" (3) "Tha" (4) "Va"(5) "Ll" (6) "lim" (7). MD's structure is recognizabley different. Similar examples can be shown for other talas. The Thyagaraja examples in particular are far from obvious without knowledge of Tala and rhtyhmic accompaniment. However, since they are so popular, we may be conditioned even to this oblique structure.

To take a particularly extreme example I had mentioned earlier - listen to Shankari Shankuru without talam/accompaniment and without knowlegde of the taalam - you will keep time to Adi 1 kalai instead of Adi Tisram! The stresses are mostly at the counter-intuitive points except perhaps Samam and Ardhi! This example also should answer your point about "perceiving nadai musically" - this is not always possible without reference to the taalam/tempo of the piece..you can make chatusram sound like tisram and vice versa and so on for other nadais.

The point is to reemphasize what I have already said and in response to "instinctively putting beat" - you can let your conditioning guide you and with adequate exposure, you will get it right 90% of the time...but this is not a failsafe method and it is possible to work out pallavis and krithis that "go against the grain"...

There is also nothing to show (whether theoretically or by way of practical analysis of krithis) that the stress structure of a kriti/pallavi should follow the major beats (that would make things immensely boring!). The majority of Thyagaraja's 2 Kalai compositions in fact go against such a concept. As for Pallavis, they are designed to confuse - therein lies the challenge!

As for folk Misra Chapu I have never heard a folk song and am therefore unable to make any comment on how the CM Misra Chapu differs...but MC does have a very characteristic feel: stress on Veechu and the beats, take off at 4 matras to name just a few...

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijay:

I am intentionally staying away from talking about Anga boundaries for a reason. They are higher level rhythmic structures. When a Laghu is defined to be of 4 beats, dhrutham of 2 beats, anudhrutham of 1 beat, I want to focus on that definition and inherent manifestation of that 'beat' in a song. I also want to leave out Sankari Sankuru for now. Also, since you said 90% beats should be 'feelable', let us consider that 90%. We can always deal with the rest 10% as exceptions.

Your examples of T and MD songs are right on the mark. What you call as stress points falling off beat is definitely there ( a sort of syncopation ) and Thyagaraja was an expert at that. You rightly observe that in many cases, the stresses fall on the intermediate sub-beat. And I agree that if the song's stress points always fall on the beat, it will be very boring and it will sound like Beginners lessons in music.

Having said all that, you say that we are conditioned to put the beat at those instinctive places... I will have to dispute that. I am not talking about the capability of the individuals. How does a mridangamist who is hearing the song for the very first time play to the song. He has to have an idea on where the beats are. This is true of any music. I have asked people who have absolutely had no prior exposure to CM to listen to a CM piece and tap to the beat. They can do it without any problems, though the syncopation occasionally confuses people which is expected.

Think about this in this convoluted way: If something has to be off-beat ( syncopation as in your T examples ), there has to be something called beat point. If all stresses fall at off-beat points, then that off-beat point will become the beat points. So, off-beat syncopation only makes sense in the context of beats.

Coming back to T's handling of rhythm, he gives you enough stress points that match the beat points and then he gives a few that are syncopated. That is the beauty. But that does not take away the fact that there are beats inherent in the song and are Real and not due to conditioning on the part of the listener.

You mentioned Desadi thala songs of T in this context. Here are my thoughts on this. This will shed some light on what I call as built-in rhythm of songs, especially as handled by Thyagaraja on some of his simple and catchy songs.

If I just go by the rhythmic analysis by feel ( and ignoring CM conventions and how the thala is kept using the Kriyas of Adi etc. without meaning any offense to tradition )

Let us number the beats 1, 2, 3..., 7, 8. The eduppu is normally called 1.5 eduppu but the song really starts mid-point between beat number 2 and 3.
Each beat is subdivided into two. So the full numbering for our use is: 1 1.5 2 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 .5 5 6 6.5 7 7.5 8 8.5

I see these things. Let us call this minimal, sufficient and complete characterization of the rhythm.

The sathiya is set to an 8 beats cycle.

Looking at it from a pure rhythm point of view, some commonalities in the various songs can be observed.

The Stress on Odd beats are stronger than the Stress on Even beats. ( Odd and Even by the above numbering scheme ).

Some times, the stress on the 5th beat is a bit stronger than other odd beats but that is not always the case. We have been calling this 5th beat Arudhi but all we need for the minimalist purposes here is that the stress on the 5th beat be stonger than the other odd beats.

Now the odd beats are given a heavier stress than even beats. So you get an alternating Heavy-Not so heavy stress pattern in the song.

A lot of sahitya words start on the "Evennumber.5" boundaries ( 2.5, 4.5, 6.5, 8.5 ). But that is not syncopation really, that is just eduppu of the sathitya words. This is similar to the eduppu of the song itself except in this case, in the middle of the sahitya line, words start from the middle of the beat ( gap between the beats ). But it is all the same thing.

Now we can characterize these songs in a much simpler fashion using two methods.

If you ignore the heavier stress on beat 5, then all those songs can be cast into this 1-2 alternating stress structure. We do not need Adi at all. If one is agreeable to that, then the complicated 1.5 eduppu is an unnecessary thing.

Next time you listen to the desadi thala songs, just for grins, shift your eduppu by two beats. It will be perfectly comfortable. If you shift it by one, it will NOT be comfortable. This is because of the underlying simple structure of "Heavy - Not So heavy" stress structure in the song. It is symmetric over such a two beat structures. By shifting the eduppu by 2 beats ( say from 2.5 to 4.5 or 6.5 or 8.5 using the above numbering scheme), you are not really changing anything due to this symmtery. But you shift the eduppu by 1 beat, now you are changing something fundamentally and stresses would not match and hence there will be some discomfort. Every beat will feel like a syncopated beat. Another way of stating it is, Desadi thala is 0.5 Athitha eduppu over this two beat structure.

If you do not want to ignore the heavier stress on beat 5, then one can consider this desadi thala to consists of two parts. A poorvanga of 2 beats and an uttaranga of 6 beats. And both poorvanga and uttaranga again consisting of the above 2 beat structure of "heavy-not so heavy'. The song again starts at .5 athitha eduppu wrt to the poorvanga two beats.
That is a much simplier way of looking at it than laying it over Adi. The definition then has to be slightly modified to say 'Desadi thala is 0.5 Athitha eduppu wrt the poorvanga 2 beats'.

.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

I havent read through all points, but on further reflection I am more in line with Vijay. Except for the case of 2-kalai tiSra tripuTa, in the other cases both are same.

In "mEl-kalam" I said miSra cApu becomes ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta | ta-ka di-mi | ta-ka u-Nu
In tiSra tripUta it is simple ta-ka ta-ri ki-Ta | ta-ka-di-mi | ta-ka-ju-Nu (as opposed to ta-ka di-mi ta-ka | dhi-mi | ta-ka leaves hanging unless strung two together)

For 2-kaLai tiSra tripuTa - I am it would be simply ta-ka-dhi-mi 7 times - possible. But I would think the
ta-ka-ta-ri ki-Ta-ta-ka ta-ri-ki-Ta | ta-ka-dhi-mi ta-ka-junu ta-ka-dhi-mi ta-ka-ju-Nu | ta-ka-dhi-mi ta-ka-junu ta-ka-dhi-mi ta-ka-ju-Nu

In other words, even here treating the laghu part in "threes" (i.e. tiSram) seems more natural.

So I tend to agree that miSra cApu is a "condensed" tiSra tripuTa and that gives a higher perception/illusion that the initial anga is in "tIsra naDai". In fact if you closely observe some people putting miSra cApu - they would do it exactly like this. A slap, followed by a quick 2 count with pinky and ring finger, and then two slaps. The first slap + 2 quick count is pretty much tisra laghu - but condensed in time.

Also I looked at notations for Dikshitar's songs in tiSra tripUta. Only the in 2-kaLai bR.haspaTe seems hard to imagine in m.cApu. The others tripuTa krithis that I looked: kamalAmbAm (bhairavi), SrI kamalAmbikayAm (sahana), Ananda naTana prakAsam (kEdAram), cidambara naTarAja (tanukrithi) etc. seem 1-kalai and eventhough I dont know the song just on a cursory look - it seems they can be comfortably put as tiSra tripuTa.

I am attaching a snippet of notations of bR.haspatE and kamalAmbAm below for additional reading. These were recreated using my notation typesetter (note: due to some current limitations in the typesetter I had to approx a couple of high speed swaras).

Image

And now for some cheap promotion: For more info on the typesetter, please visit http://arunk.freepgs.com/wordpress/cm-typesetter/about/

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Vk I feared I got your Q wrong and I am afraid I think I did! The "conditioning" I was referring to was probably misleading. I merely intended to say that if we know the eduppu of a song and that it is in a particular Taalam, we keep beats accordingly.

I agree that most people would be able to figure out the basic rhtyhm of most compositions without ever having heard or heard of CM before (OK 90% of the time!)...that it not what I was referrring to. I was talking about distinction between the main beat and sub beat as per your definition. That would not be obvious to a newbie or even a sesoned rasika. Going back to Endukku Pedda, If I did not know that it started on the 2nd beat (the sub beat) it could just as well be beat 1 and still "fit" equally well. In fact the "La" of "Peddala" would neatly fall on the Ardhi if I started at Beat 3 (Main beat - which would transpose the sequence I gave in my earlier post to yield more main beat stresses)!

"gives you enough stress points that match the beat points and then he gives a few that are syncopated"

In fact he does exactly the opposite in the examples above - the distribution of stresses is highly skewed towards sub-beats. 4:1 actually with 1 on a half beat in Enduku Peddala. This is not an isolated example - a majority of Thyagaraja's 2 Kalai Adi Taala compositions follow this broad structure. Nor is it uncommon for other composers to stress the sub-beats although they tend to respect the Ardhi a little more. Take "Karthikeya" in Thodi - the numbers are 1, 2.5, 4, 5, 6,6.5, 7 and 9...you will find such randomness of stresses between beats/sub-beats in most krithis....the point is, I can discern no greater importance accorded to the main beat over the sub-beat in terms of the stresses in a composition. In fact, I doubt whether this issue entered the composer's minds at all although their preference for a certain struture may have yielded a skewed distribution like in Thyagaraja's case.

Regarding your 1 Kalai Desadi example, shifting the beat by +/- 1 or 2 wold not make any difference one way or the other to the lay ear. A newbie will find it difficult to tell where these krithis start unless he/she is famioliar with 1) Thyagaraja's works ,2)The manner in which time is typically kept for such krithis (a double tap on the middle finger before the ardhi and same again before the samam - that's what makes it seem to fit so well) or 3) The importance of the Ardhi itself (which has a spl significance in CM). In fact, the most obvious starting point for the layman would be 0.5 (or half beat after samam) rather than 1.5. This is because it is the first half beat in the cycle (see below) and not for any other reason. 2.5 (shifting by 1 beat away) will not cause any specific discomfort compared to 1.5 unless one is sensitized as mentioned above. Net net, the eduppu point of these krithis is not obvious if you take away the CM context of Thyagaraja, Desadi Tala/timekeeping for the same and Ardhi.

Shifting by 0.5 is a different matter though (perhaps this is what you intended to say? Half beats and sub-beats are different) - that would sound plainly awkward even to the most rhythmically challenged listener. This comes closer to my understanding of syncopation (which, I will admit, is poor). The "on beat/half beat" difference is certainily something that is intuitively obvious.

But not so, main beat/sub beat in a 2/higher Kalai context - this is a result of the presumed importance of one over the other since one follows/replicates the other...To extent the sub-beat exists because of the main beat, I take your point about a certain hierarchy of importance. But I don't see how one can draw a correlation of these with stresses, no matter how broad....it may even turn out to be the reverse if we actually sit down to analyze...

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Post by vijay »

Thanks for your inputs Arun. At a more reasonable I will try and look at these!

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Regarding your 1 Kalai Desadi example, shifting the beat by +/- 1 or 2 wold not make any difference one way or the other to the lay ear. A newbie will find it difficult to tell where these krithis start unless he/she is famioliar with 1) Thyagaraja's works ,2)The manner in which time is typically kept for such krithis (a double tap on the middle finger before the ardhi and same again before the samam - that's what makes it seem to fit so well)
I would dispute this, especially the "shifting the beat by +1/-1 or 2" part. There is a very basic difference between shifting by 1 and shifting by 2. Shifting by 1 changes the heavy and not so heavy alternating stresses around and you will feel something odd if you continue to keep the beats the way way. I agree shifting by 0.5 is a no go.

I do not know why the double tap is significant. I have seen artisits do that. Also, I am taling at a fundamental musical level and I do not see why someone needs to be familar with Thyagaraja's Desadi thala works. If you analyze a lot of these desadi thala krithis, you do see an alternating stress pattern in the song.
In fact, the most obvious starting point for the layman would be 0.5 (or half beat after samam) rather than 1.5. This is because it is the first half beat in the cycle (see below) and not for any other reason. 2.5 (shifting by 1 beat away) will not cause any specific discomfort compared to 1.5 unless one is sensitized as mentioned above
"half beat after samam" would not work because the first major stress in the song would align with the second beat which is a minor stress in this alternating stress pattern. Same problem with 2.5. That is why 1.5, 3.5, 5.5 7.5 eduppu works because the natural major stress of the thala matches with the expectation. ( beware, here we have changed the numbering , it is 0 based as opposed 1 based in my previous example )
or 3) The importance of the Ardhi itself (which has a spl significance in CM). . Net net, the eduppu point of these krithis is not obvious if you take away the CM context of Thyagaraja, Desadi Tala/timekeeping for the same and Ardhi.
As I wrote before, if one feels that the arudhi stress is significant and is much heavier than other odd beats in the song, and you want to fit the Desadi into the regular Adi mould, then 1.5 is the right and only eduppu for this. I was offering a different point of view ( which traditionlists will balk at ) to view these songs at its most basic form in terms of rhythm and come up with a minimal description of the rhythm without losing anything.

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Post by vijay »

VK, from your post I think we are in agreement that it is the Ardhi that makes 2.5 such an intuitive take off point for Desadi. What I was trying to say is that a newbie would probably not appreciate the significance of the Ardhi in CM (as I myself was uanble to until I got more familiar). With help of the Mrudangam support (which would stress the Ardhi), however, even a lay person can feel the 2.5 take off...

Also looking back into the thread I seem to have got your definition of sub beat completely wrong - I now realize you meant beats other than the first one in a Kriya. Of course, my aruments would equally apply to this new definition but I think I will leave it there!

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Arun looking at your transliteration screenshot, it does look quite similar to how it would in Misra Chapu.... I will consult my TKG when I get back and try to see if I can throw any more light....Meanwhile those who are familiar with these krithis could perhaps chip in...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:"half beat after samam" would not work because the first major stress in the song would align with the second beat which is a minor stress in this alternating stress pattern. Same problem with 2.5. That is why 1.5, 3.5, 5.5 7.5 eduppu works because the natural major stress of the thala matches with the expectation. ( beware, here we have changed the numbering , it is 0 based as opposed 1 based in my previous example )
Pardon for trying to weasel out a quick answer - as most of this topic is causing my head to spin and I have glossed over it with glazed eyes (i do that when too much tala stuff is involved :) ).

But "half beat after samam" would not work for what and where?

I have not learnt many songs, but even among that the ones I have have, there are quite a few 1/2 after samams (i.e. 0.5 akshara after samam, assuming deSAdi is like 1.5 aksharas after samam for say 1 kalai Adi). I thought this was madhyAdi?

I guess we are talking about some other context which i have skipped over?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Mar 2008, 00:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

But "half beat after samam" would not work for what and where?
Arun, as you yourself guessed, it was wrt to a specific context, namely, transposing a 1.5 eduppu song and treat it as "half beat after samam" eduppu. I was saying that would not work because that places the first natural major stress on a beat that normally receives a minor stress. Definitely, there are lots of songs that start on 'half beat after samam'. ( On a related note, I have a whole mental model on precisely characterizing what makes a song .5 eduppu or 1.5 eduppu etc..That is all to convince myself that eduppu is not external to the song but it is inherent and built into the song and should be 'figurable' without any external indication either by the performer or by the mridangamist but that is probably for a different time...Not sure if you will be on board with such charectization but I have a feeling Vijay would have a problem with it based on what he opined in this discussion )

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

After reflecting on this MC-TT equivalence some more and listening to a few songs in Misra Chapu, here is what I come up regarding the mapping of Misra Chapu and Tisra Triputa and how a song in Misra Chapu can be aligned to Tisra Triputa.

Let me use numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 for Misra chapu and L1, L2 and L3 for three Laghu beats of Tisra Triputa and D1 and D2 for the Drutha beats of Tisra triputa.

Misra chapu for two cycles would be : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Tisra Triputa for one cycle would be : L1 L2 L3 D1 D2 D1 D2

I am going to stipulate both of these will take the same amount of time to complete.

Assume that the misra chapu song is set up in even number of cycles for a sathitya line and the singer obeys that through out the song.

Given the usual stress pattern of misra chapu, the two thalas can be aligned as follows:

Code: Select all

1 | 2 3 | 4 5 | 6 7 | 1 2 | 3 4 | 5 6| 7 1
  | L1  | L2  | L3  | D1  | D2  | D1 | D2
Here are three songs I randomly picked.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/Nqb ... As1NMvHdW/ - Saranam Iyappa, Misra Chapu, Samam Eduppu

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/vUK ... As1NMvHdW/ - Pullum, Misra Chapu, Eduppu is on the 3rd beat of MC.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/cJy ... As1NMvHdW/ - A heavy weight, Ananda natana prakasam, Misra Chapu, Samam Eduppu

Using the above Chart, if you keep Thalam for these songs with Tisra Triputa, the following implications hold.

For Saranam Iyappa, you need to consider the eduppu in Tisra Triputa to be half a beat before the samam.

For Pullum, you need to consider the eduppu in Tisra Triputa to be half a beat after the samam.

For Ananda, it will be similar to Saranam Iyappa, eduppu in TT is half a beat before samam. There is a steady MC background beat going on. It is quite interesting to keep thalam in TT against that background beat.

I want you to put Tisra triputa for these songs using the above rule and see if it fits, remembering, with Tisra Triputa it is one cycle for the two cycles of Misra Chapu. It works very well for me.

If my alignment rule holds good over a wide variety of songs, then the two thalas are equivalent structurally, but they have to be aligned as shown above so the stress patterns match up properly.

Note 1: In these songs, the song lines are even number of MC avarthanas for the most part but the singer is singing MC, so in one or two places they wrap around after an odd number of cycles. Ignore those since that is not pertinent to this discussion.

Note 2: In these songs, the mridangamist would not end the song where TT ends but where MC ends. Ignore that also since that is not pertinent to the main point of this discussion. I think with Ananda natana, it happened to work out OK since the background beat finishes on an even cycle boundary.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vk - I dont understand why the TT layout must necessarily imply a span over 2 MC cycles rather than just a 1-1 mapping. For example, I can put 1 TT cycle for SaraNam ayyappa such that it maps to 1 MC - same eDuppu and all. It becomes like gIItam style (and fast w.r.t tala keeping pace) but I dont think one can argue it is not TT.

Code: Select all

Sa ra Nam | a y   | ya p     ||
ta ki Ta  | ta ka | dhi mi   || 
pA .  .   | .  .  |  .   .   ||
ta ki Ta  | ta ka | dhi mi   ||
In short, I dont believe your mapping of L1 L2 L3 D1 D2 D1 D2 to 1-7 would be the default/de-facto mapping for TT. I may be mistaken but *many* (and he has composed quite a few in TT) krithis of MD mayfollow the above 1-1 mapping, and in fact is the reason for many people to equate MC to simply a manifestation of TT.

IMO, what you have done is sort of like trying to put 2-kaLai Adi for a 1-kaLai Adi song. It would fit but stress points wouldnt fall at the same, and sometimes not as "ideal as 1-kaLai Adi"

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 16 Mar 2008, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, very interesting observation. Thanks. If you align like what you have shown, I agreed without reservation that TT and MC are all one and the same. Because they are the same. But I have a somewhat major reservations about it. Please treat these as my own loud thoughts, not something cast in stone, so if you have agreements or rebuttals, that is more than welcome.

1) It all boils down to what is a main beat and what is a sub-beat and whether one can discern that from the song itself? If one is wiling to set that aside as not that significant or it is not discernible as inherent property of the song, then this is a moot point. But to me, the whole concept of nadai and speed is based on the strong distinction between Beats and sub-beats and if they are not inherent in the song, then all those concepts are illusory and we will be throwing the baby with the bathwater.

2) Your way of putting Tisra Triputa for Saranam Iyappa feels too fast for me. So my come back to your 1-kalai / 2-kalai characterization ( which is quite apt ) is, that you are converting a 1 kalai to 1/2 kalai ( so to say ).

3) At that twice the speed, I do not sense any further sub-beats. If I force myself to look for sub-beats, my fingers are working over time similar to how it will be if I am counting 4 sub-beats to a regular Adi song. That tells me that the base speed of rendering the Kriya is too fast.

4) Also, if you forget the fact that it was specified as MC and you are just hearing the song, what is the natural pace of thala keeping? To me, it feels more right if it is at half the the pace that is normally kept for MC. I realize there is some conditioning going on here regarding the natural pace for Chapu vs natural pace for Suladi Saptha Thala family..

5) If you listen to another song in Adi at the same pace as this song, and if you keep the main beat at this pace, my guess is you will be twice fast you normally would for Adi.

6) As you told me in another context ( Elavathara, Mukhari, 1 Kalai vs 2 Kalai rendering ) that the convention that most songs follow is to have one line of sathitya per avarthana or if the sathiya has two distinct parts, in two avarthanas. That worked for me in many other contexts ( not for short avartha count talas but for 6,7, 8 and beyond ).. If you apply that rule here, your way of keeping TT will be twice as fast as necessary.

7) BTW, hope I am clear on one thing. The faster way of keeping the TT works. All the above is about what would be the way to align the stress points with the beats and sub-beats in TT. I think both you and I agree that if you take your faster way of rendering Saranaam Iyappa as the basic 1-kalai speed and simply keep it to 2 Kalai, it just does not work rhythmically. You have to shift the Eduppu to what my alignment diagram shows ( or some other eduppu that is appropriate ).

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Post by arunk »

It is indeed faster than what I would normally put or used to :) But my point is it still may not be entirely "against the grain". I have seen people sing some of the gItams in "madyamakala tempo" (try varavIna a bit quick and put catuSra rUpaka) and in such cases, the tala pace would be about as quick as it is here

But how about this? If you map 2 MCs to one TT, then why pick TT - what is so special about TT in this context? Why not miSra Eka, catuSra jhampa, khaNDa rUpaka? All will "mathematically add up". Of course the stress points will be different - but none would match MC including TT with such a mapping. So the only way TT becomes more preferably, and can be equated to MC in these cases is if there is a 1-1 mapping because then the stress points match. That is why I think 1-1 mapping is how they equate it to MC. Besides if you look at the notations I posted earlier, this is what seems to implied there. Also remember that MD's songs are quite slow - may be like a slow miSra cApu and thus the tala keeping pace perhaps becomes "more normal". Even SaraNam ayyappa, you can slow the tempo down a bit and sing (and it would be still be fine)- and you will find that the tala speed for TT comes down to more normal but still of course snappy w.r.t what we are used to in terms of pace of talam <=> pace of song.

(however, I will note that I have heard people saying MC is like 3.5 beats, and KC is 2.5 beats and all those imply a mapping like what you suggest. So the above could be just my view)

So while I agree that this mapping does result in a tala pace faster than what we are used to, I think a argument that even here MC and TT are equivalent is not entirely without merit.

And yes while generally naDai is established within sub-beats, from a pure rhythmic stand-point I wonder if they really need not be so. It could be viewed as the "multiple factor" between stress points. The beats of the tala then become just a well ingrained standard division/reference - not like the only possible reference. For example if someone sings a kalpana swara for a rupaka tala song as say:

s r g r g p g p d p d s s d p d p g p g r g r s

(musically grouped in threes but sung to a tala with 6 beats in catusra nadati)

and the mridangist goes 8 a-ki-Ta's, now is the inherent beat catusra naDai? or is it tiSra naDai? So what is important here is the grouping of notes/atoms of the melody/rhythm and they need not be confined as a "sub-beat" where a beat is an akshara.

Note also in MC "mEl kAlam" you have 6 "sub-beats" for the first kriya and 8 for the next two. You map that to tiSra, and you have sub-beats (ta-ka ta-ri ki-Ta | ta-ka-dhi-mi | ta-ka-ju-Nu )
6) As you told me in another context ( Elavathara, Mukhari, 1 Kalai vs 2 Kalai rendering ) that the convention that most songs follow is to have one line of sathitya per avarthana or if the sathiya has two distinct parts, in two avarthanas. That worked for me in many other contexts ( not for short avartha count talas but for 6,7, 8 and beyond ).. If you apply that rule here, your way of keeping TT will be twice as fast as necessary.
Yes but that convention is not a golden rule :) It certainly does not apply to MC and KC. I dont think it applies tocatusra Eka tAlam songs (mahAgaNapatim). I dont think it will apply to short talams. But I agree that one does not tend to look at TT as a short talam. I dont think this necessarily a strike against TT (or it is mapped to MC)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 17 Mar 2008, 23:03, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, That is all very useful. I will come back with some thoughts later on, but for now..
Besides if you look at the notations I posted earlier, this is what seems to implied there.
I am not sure I understand the above. Please expand a bit.

BTW, I do not even want to consider the kalpanaswara and thani in this context. That is a separate ball game where everything is reduced to sub-beat level stuff and higher level structures are built from it. There I agree that MC and TT and anything else that is a multiple of 7 can be/would be treated the same, The notional rhythmic concept of "total sub-beats per tala cycle" predominates rather than sub-beats per beat. If it so happens any grouping falls on the thala beat, fine.
"If you map 2 MCs to one TT, then why pick TT - what is so special about TT in this context? Why not miSra Eka, catuSra jhampa, khaNDa rUpaka? All will "mathematically add up"
Excellent. That is the crux of the matter. That is what I want to address. It is not the mathematical equivalence that matters but the pattern of stress. In my view, there are Four kinds of stresses I sense in CM songs.

1. Stress On Beat
1.1 Major stress on the beat
1.2 Minor stress on the beat
1.3 Exagerated Major stress on the beat ( like the arudhi stress )
2. Stress on Sub-beat

It feels to me that there are aesthetic, qualitative and quantitative differences in these 4 different stresses in the way compositions are structured. Again, not as a golden rule but as a thumb rule ( with good number of exceptions ). If composers never thought along these lines, that is fine, I will consider the above as a model to reverse-engineer the rhythmic structures inherent in their compositions.

So, coming back to your question, a few other thalas may match also but not all because they may not match on these 4 types of stress points. We have one trump card to play with. That is the eduppu. We can move that so the alignment is right.

As another example of using Eduppu for proper alignment is between Khanda Jampa and Adi. Let us assume that Anudrutha stress is no different from a typical arutdhi type stress.

The rule would be: A song set in Khanda Jampa, eduppu X be transformed without aesthetic loss to an Adi, eduppu X-1. For example, if Khanda Jampa is a samam edupu, then the corresponding aligned Adi would be Adeetha eduppu on beat -1 ( which is beat 8 ). Of course, this is based on a few aesthetic assumptions. The Khanda Jampa song does not have two consequitive Major stresses on the anudrutha beat and the following Drutha beat.

OK, I have digressed from the MC, TT. Getting back to it:

Arun, think about an aesthetic answer ( and not a mathematical answer ) to this:

If a song in MC is played and you were not told it is MC but told to keep beats for TT as you would normally do for a TT pace of keeping thalam, how will you do it? My guess is, it will follow my alignment rule instintively. Now consider a Viloma Chapu variation on Misra Chapu song with Samam Eduppu. Look in my alignment diagram for where you will start the TT and see if that fits aesthetically.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Besides if you look at the notations I posted earlier, this is what seems to implied there.
I am not sure I understand the above. Please expand a bit.
Look at post #22 of this thread - the notations for the 2nd krithi (kamalAmba).
BTW, I do not even want to consider the kalpanaswara and thani in this context. That is a separate ball game where everything is reduced to sub-beat level stuff and higher level structures are built from it.
No no. This is a big mistake to presume that kalpana swaras play by a completely different sets of rules and so they arent applicable. They are very very applicable. Even within the melodies of krithis you will find divisions like this - an 8 is not always 4+4, it can be 5+3. Sometimes a sixteen would 3*4 + 4. etc. Even in the handful songs I learnt, I see in many sangatis of rUpaka tala, you have swara pattersn following 3+3+3+3 etc. Now it would be rare to find the example like the one I posted but if you want to place aesthetics above and go off to real basic musical entities like stress-points, then you have to consider these too. That is why I brought them. IMO, the patterns woven in kalpana swaras (and in particular their rhythmic patterns) are indeed in melodies on that raga in other krithis.

As an aside, I think I sometimes dare wonder that the whole concept of tala avarthana itself can be viewed as an artificial (math based) skeleton. The internal rhythm melody lines dont 't always tee up to the tala. Many times they do in terms of arudhi etc. but many times they dont. Many times with sangatis, relative stress points shift around. That is why you find it very hard to conclusively and unambiguously prove why a melody fits one and exactly one tala - and it is a perfect fit (as opposed to the most reasonable fit among the available).
If a song in MC is played and you were not told it is MC but told to keep beats for TT as you would normally do for a TT pace of keeping thalam, how will you do it? My guess is, it will follow my alignment rule instintively. Now consider a Viloma Chapu variation on Misra Chapu song with Samam Eduppu. Look in my alignment diagram for where you will start the TT and see if that fits aesthetically.
I dont know but it would depend on the pace. If it slow MC, my instincts tell me that I do not think I will map 2 MC's to TT even with the shift of eDuppu. For slower MCs' it seems to make a whole lot more sense to do a 1 <=> 1 mapping. Now I agree this makes the tala pace snappier and 'seems abnormal' - but that is based on conditioning. The exact same conditioning which would prevent my instincts to move to an eDuppu before samam - for me atleast an eDuppu prior to samam is counter-intuitive. Although I cannot say for sure, my mind just wont gravitate to it.

But in general, the equiv of TT to MC does seem more about mathematical than aesthetics (and I feel that way about talas in almost all aspects after a certain point :) ) . But I think it is also because of some conditioning. But one cannot ignore the notations of MD's krithis. This is the one composer who has concentrated a lot on TT. If many of his krithis imply a 1-1 mapping between TT and MC, then how meaningful is it to say "but that makes the tala pace faster than what is normal" - it isnt natural. Who told us this isnt natural?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 18 Mar 2008, 01:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, is that song in Bhairavi or Ananda Bhairavi. I looked for it quickly in MOI and found one in Ananda Bhairavi that matches those lyrics and marked as Misra Chapu. Confirm this and I will listen and get back.

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Post by arunk »

You are right - it is Anandabhairavi. I typed in wrong. RRI's book shows it as TT.

But I think now this may be a huge red-herring which has misled me (and which in turn I have used to mislead others :) ).

I have to confirm but it looks like he (RRI) has gone with the term "tripuTa" for krithis whose tala-layout is how we are used to w.r.t MC, and he has used "tisra tripuTa" for ones where the layout is unlike MC and more like what one would expect for TT i.e. in line with Adi etc. (i.e. like bR.haspatE in post #22).

So I think he just avoids the term MC and uses tripuTa. But the fact that he uses tripuTa AND tiSra tripuTa, and uses them for different layouts is of significance - i.e. it was treated and named differently I think we need another source than RRI i.e we need to go to "the source" SSP ;)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 18 Mar 2008, 05:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by arunk »

ok - looking at SSP (guruguha.org - thanks vidya!)

Some interesting points.

1. The tanukriti krithi (cidambara naTarAja) is marked as miSra Eka when it is marked in RRI as "tripuTa" :)
2. A sAlanganATa krithi (avyAjakaruNakaTAkshi) is marked "tripuTa" - but I think it is not MC style. There are 2 cycles per pallavi and if you look at # of matras in the pallavi per avathana you have 6 + 4 + 4 for the "default speed". In ciTTswaras you have 12+8+8 - so definitely like how other tripuTas are
3. SrI mahAgaNapati ravatumAm is marked "tripuTa" and the layout is like MC
4. SrI mAtrubhUtam which I think is rendered in MC today, is marked "miSra Eka"
5. bR.haspatE is marked "tripuTa" and of course follows like #2 above i.e. "non-MC" style layout.
6. akshayalinga vibhO is also marked miSra Eka.

Note that unlike RRI, "tripuTa" is used for both styles by SSP but you have miSra Eka being used. Also looks like the term "miSra cApu" was avoided. There seems to be a pattern/tendency in songs with "MC like rhythm" (i.e. rendered in MC today) to be named "miSra EKa" - although not in all cases (e.g. #3 above).

But I think there is some evidence here that there was a feeling there were 2 different rhythmic components. In general for songs like bR.haspatE the consistency is there (?) - but for others we have MC today vs. tripuTa/miSra-Eka in olden times.

Arun
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Arun for the research into SSP. I need to listen to some songs from the two categories to see if there is any stress based aesthetic differences. As a tangential example, I have listened to a few Khanda Eka songs of MD and I convinced myself that there is something to it to be called Khanda Eka as opposed to other thalas.

One of the familiar songs from your list is 'akshayalinga vibhO'. That has the pace and characteristics of a 2-kalai song. To me, rhythmic feel wise, it will fit in with a 2 Kalai Before-Samam eduppu TT with 'Bho' of vibho falling on the arudhi ( 4th beat). The MC eduppu seems to be on or about the 'Dhi' of ta-ki-ta ta-ka-dhi-mi. My alignment rule needs an extra stipulation that if MC is adhita eduppu, TT also should be Adhita eduppu, meaning align the eduppu with the second avarthana of MC rather than the first avarthana of MC. It sounds a bit ad-hoc, so I will have to think about this further.

One thing I got from the AB song is, it is indeed a slow MC ( wrt the pace of kriyas ). atypical of other misra chapu songs. I will have to make sure that this fits it into my alignment rule with 2-Kalai TT ;)

You wrote before
(however, I will note that I have heard people saying MC is like 3.5 beats, and KC is 2.5 beats and all those imply a mapping like what you suggest. So the above could be just my view)
I always thought that is the way they are characterized and kriyas kept accordingly. The slightly tangential but highly related view is that the stress pattern is

(Beat Stress-Beat Stress-subbeat stress ) (Beat Stress-Sub beat stress) (Beat Stress-subbeat stress) for misra chapu. That is what makes it unique in its feel since two Beat Stresses follow each other which is not usually the case with Suladi Saptha Thala characteristics.

As I wrote before, Misra Chapu is supposed to have folk origins and so I would not be too surprised if it has its own unique rhythmic feel.

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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:One thing I got from the AB song is, it is indeed a slow MC ( wrt the pace of kriyas ). atypical of other misra chapu songs.
I dont find this one as atypical. There are many songs in MC with similar tempo. For example janani ninuvina (ritigowla), nannu viDachi (rg), bhairavi swarajathi. But then it depends on who is singing too :)
arunk wrote:(however, I will note that I have heard people saying MC is like 3.5 beats, and KC is 2.5 beats and all those imply a mapping like what you suggest. So the above could be just my view)
I always thought that is the way they are characterized and kriyas kept accordingly.
Perhaps it is more a result of a mathematical representation of a "mixed gati" i.e. 1 beat in tiSra + two beats in catusra gati. When he 1 beat in tiSra gati is represented in terms of catusra gati, it becomes 1.5. Thus 1+1+1.5 = 3.5. I am not sure I agree that the kriyas are kept accordingly since I think it is not the only way to interpret this.

(Beat Stress-Beat Stress-subbeat stress ) (Beat Stress-Sub beat stress) (Beat Stress-subbeat stress) for misra chapu. That is what makes it unique in its feel since two Beat Stresses follow each other which is not usually the case with Suladi Saptha Thala characteristics.
As you know, the two consecutive beat stresses are simply the way tiSra gati is kept - i.e. a (perhaps natural) convention to "time-keep" a triplet. And it is not the only way - some people will put only one slap for the entire triple, some would put one slap followed by 2 tiny finger counts (thus more like TT). You will find this 2 consecutive beat stresses in Adi tiSra gati songs too - more obvious in the real "simpler" ones (waltzy).

Musically i.e. w.r.t the internal rhythm of the melody, this triplet need not necessarily involve a stress for the first two sub-divisions of the triplet. Again you probably have observed this. Sometimes you have stress at the first only (i.e. a swara that spans 3 matras). Some times you skip the first two and start on the 3rd. Both are common enough and both commonly occur within the same song. However, it is true that a song in MC (or KC) will quite frequently have consecutive syllables fall at the first 2 of the triplet, and this would be absent in other talas which are in catusra gati. But, IMO, what makes this unique in MC (KC), is that the tala obviously is not "tiSra gati" throughout and so you have this mixed bag. So you have some parts which have this consecutive stress/syllables, and some parts which dont giving that unique rhythmic gait (different from a gait that is fully tiSra gait based)

Arun

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Perhaps it is more a result of a mathematical representation of a "mixed gati" i.e. 1 beat in tiSra + two beats in catusra gati. When he 1 beat in tiSra gati is represented in terms of catusra gati, it becomes 1.5. Thus 1+1+1.5 = 3.5.
Right, that is what I had in mind too.

Since you are willing to buy into the "mixed gathi" thing like me, doesn't that naturally rule out the straight foward equivalence of MC = TT.

Because, if you do that for the same song, then jAti and gati are being interchangeably used which are clearly separated out in the construction of suladi saptha thala. My alignment rule makes sure that this is not violated. This is just another way of stating what I had stated before, namely, the beat and sub-beats need to be musically and aesthetically significant and inherent attribute of the song.

If we can take it that far, then we have a more aesthetic way of characterizing if a song is naturally in MC or TT based on the rhythmic structure of the song itself ( my alignment method notwithstanding ).
what makes this unique in MC (KC), is that the tala obviously is not "tiSra gati" throughout and so you have this mixed bag. So you have some parts which have this consecutive stress/syllables, and some parts which dont giving that unique rhythmic gait (different from a gait that is fully tiSra gait based)
Absolutely. In fact, I do not even consider the uniformity as a requirement at all. There has to be enough there in the music to define what the basic rhythmic structure more or less unambigously and then provide variations on that to make the song interesting.

You wrote before about how the stress structures do not align up in various sangathis of songs. That is perfectly fine in my way of reverse engineering the rhythmic structures. Variations are great and highly desirable as long as the 'Basis' on which these variations are built is made clear aesthetically. Sangathis, in that sense, are not just variations on melody but they are also variations on the rhythmic stress structures that can violate the stress pattern of the 'base'. ( obviously the base has to be made clear since vairations on a rhythmic theme does not make sense without first establishing the theme )

I am willing to concede that not all songs of the great composers may fall into a neat fashion so as to follow my own mental 'reverse engineering' model and rules ( inter and intra songs ). But there are enough similarities in structure there to build that rhythmic model from bottom up rather than strictly going by the mathematical definition provided by the 35 thala structure whcih to me is quite devoid of much aesthetic meaning ( not the thala themselves but how it is ususally written in books while introducing CM thala. It almost seems to be there to impress people on how mathematically beautiful they are but they do not go in to the actual musical and aesthetic significance of those structures. I am not sure if anyone really knows the full "traditional" story and if such principles were strictly used by the great composers of the past in their compositions. We can see if such things are there through reverse engineering )

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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Since you are willing to buy into the "mixed gathi" thing like me, doesn't that naturally rule out the straight foward equivalence of MC = TT.
Yes (in fact that is why MC is implemented in my notation software :) ) - and yes from my perspective, musically, a strong equivalence does not exist and it seems to come only if you look at it a bit mathematically However, our "rejection" of this alternate interpretation may be a large part due to our conditioning.
Because, if you do that for the same song, then jAti and gati are being interchangeably used which are clearly separated out in the construction of suladi saptha thala.
My alignment rule makes sure that this is not violated.
Actually your aligment rule seems to mask the triplet because it is geared for what you claim as usual stress pattern for MC. Like I said that triplet can be and is used in different ways.

Basically, IMO the equivalence is maintained (musically) only if you do a 1-1 mapping between tala avarthanas. A MC song's "default" swara duration becomes like a TT song in gItam mode (i.e. 1 swara per akshara for TT). Look at the TT gItams - Dont they have the built in "mixed gati" feel? Do they have a MC feel?

Code: Select all

kamala | jA . | da La ||
vimala | suna | ya na ||
We all learned this and other such gItams as TT, but aesthetically you have ta-ki-Ta and ta-ka-dhi-mi. So this is MC, and of course this is TT (in gItam).

So its not like this 1-1 mapping of TT to MC is something entirely new. Its just that in krithis we do not expect a standard tala (i.e. sulaDi) to follow this kind of layout. But why is it such a hard and unusual thing? Is it because some natural rhythmic laws? Or is it because of strong conditioning established by other talas like Adi and Roopaka and others?

Either you can say that TT and MC are not equivalent because per in practice the standard talas dont follow this layout in krithis (or) you rely on aesthetics/internal-rhythms etc. as a bigger trump card than history and tradition. We cannot use aesthetics when it is applicable in one place, and switch over to history of suladi talas when it is applicable elsewhere. I feel like you are doing that :)

Arun

PS: I still feel that MC is aesthetically different to how I would interpret TT . Its just that I can see the equivalence better now because I suspended my belief that "my usual way of interpreting TT (or misra Eka for that matter)" is the only way it can and must be interpreted. I am willing to see the alternate interpretation although it still remains as "a bit unfamiliar" to me. But apparently it is how it was done in some old works (like SSP).

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, Regarding the Gitam speed, there is no distinction between Beats and sub-beats, so I am not surprised that in those cases MC, TT equivalence is quite strong. There jAthi vs Gathi distinction is not there. They come into picture only in higher speeds.. Right?

I do agree with you that aesthetically, those TT githams do give us the 'mixed' gathi feel. Definitely. I never looked at it that way until you pointed it out now. That observation of yours is quite profound. That points to possible evolution of rhythmic structures of higher order. I am 'conditioned' to believe that gathis are sophisticated variations but here is a case where there is reason to believe things might have started with gathi like structures and later they are subsumed into the Beat/sub-beat sophisticated architecture. Another tangential evidence is that in folk songs, non-chathusra gathis are quite common ( or even the norm ? ), so that may point to a naturalness to them. ( the gathi stuff in folk is there in other countries' folk music as well, especially eastern european ).

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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Arun, Regarding the Gitam speed, there is no distinction between Beats and sub-beats, so I am not surprised that in those cases MC, TT equivalence is quite strong. There jAthi vs Gathi distinction is not there. They come into picture only in higher speeds.. Right?
Not sure. Let me repeat something I said before.

Let us say you go to mEl kAlam MC (and this does happen a lot). It would be

ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta | ta-ka-dhi-mi | ta-ka-ju-Nu i.e. 6 | 4 | 4 => you still have 1 tisra-based rhythmic sub-unit + 2 catusra based rhythmic sub-unit

But consider TT in gItam speed and then switch to 2nd speed. What do you have?

ta-ka ta-ri ki-Ta | ta-ka dhi-mi | ta-ka ju-Nu

So even here TT and MC are equivalent, and it is hard to say that first one is more about gati and second about jAti. I think both still become that mixed bag. The big idea behind this interpretation of TT is that the tiSra laghu gets treated as one "rhythmic sub-unit" (say in order to get emphasis at the first dhrutam) and when you do that it naturally becomes a tiSra-gati based unit.

I think our conditioning is such that we don't group the laghu as a whole this way as an atomic unit (in terms of rhythmic aesthetics etc.). We perhaps instead think of it as some higher level grouping that sometimes seem more "academic". In other words, each akshara within a laghu becomes the 1st level grouping under which you have "n" mathrais depending on gati, and then the laghu itself is higher (2nd) grouping, and then you have the tala avarthana as the 3rd. This is now we tend to look at Adi and we apply to TT and then conclude TT and MC are just not the same. But while I think this makes sense for longer laghus, I guess for shorter laghus sometimes the laghu itself can becomes the 1st level grouping (and tala avarthana becomes 2nd).

Arun

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

In other words, each akshara within a laghu becomes the 1st level grouping under which you have "n" mathrais depending on gati, and then the laghu itself is higher (2nd) grouping, and then you have the tala avarthana as the 3rd. This is now we tend to look at Adi and we apply to TT and then conclude TT and MC are just not the same. But while I think this makes sense for longer laghus, I guess for shorter laghus sometimes the laghu itself can becomes the 1st level grouping (and tala avarthana becomes 2nd).
I am quite sympathetic to this view as you know, but what you wrote above is the official definition of Suladi Saptha Thala in CM. ( as official as it gets ). It is not just simple conditioning in that sense. It is uniformly applied to all the laghu jAthis including 3. I have not seen anywhere that Tisra Laghu can be viewed separately. There is also a problem if you start considering the Laghu as one unit for 3 unit jAthi laghu. You will have to find another way to define/incorporate Gathi. Misra chapu, since it has different origins from the Suladi system, can afford to have different structures which can at best be described in terms of Suladi terminology but not be bound by its rules.

On the Mel-Kalam MC, I need to think about it. As real examples, are you referring to the the 'quciker paced' later sections in MD songs like Akshaya Linga Vibho?

At some level, it makes sense to distinguish another level of grouping whether it is officially sanctioned or not. ( this goes to different types of nadai interpretations we discussed at length before ). For real slow speed songs like 2 Kalai and 4 Kalai, ( or even odd number between 1 kalai and 2 kalai ), it makes sense to have gathi variations on the sub-beats. There is a Nadai Pallavi by Manakkal Rangarajan in Sangeethapriaya where he demonstrates something like this. I will find the link and post here.

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Post by arunk »

I meant the laghu *can* be interpreted as an unit in practice, and the evidence for that is the SSP notations (besides the gItams). It does not mean it is THE way for interpreting TT and hence somehow this interpretations must incorporate gatis etc. This interpretation is not necessarily mutually exclusive with the other interpretation. I would like to think it in more practical terms. Basically, the "ta-ki-Ta ta-ka dhi-mi" pattern can be adequately handled by TT with this specific interpretation. The pattern can arise directly from the tala as evidenced by the gItams. I am not sure why the burning need to apply it back to academic stuff like suladi talas etc. (i guess i say that because i know it wont fit ;) - but remember you do have evidence in practice that indicates this and from SSP of all places)
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2008, 07:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Here is the link to Shri. Manakkal Rangarajan's pallavi in many nadais: http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~sripathy ... ration.mp3

This is a fairly big download and we have referred to this link before, so you may already have it.

This illustrates that there multiple levels of Beats and their subdivisions.

The thala is Thisra jAthi Jampa in Khanda Gathi. That gives you 6 * 5 = 30 subdivisions. This is at the outer level. For the purpose of understanding this structure, I consider this in the same league as kaLai. For 2 Kalai you keep two taps per main beat. Here you keep 5 taps per beat. Here the number of taps per beat ( khandam ) has the effect of slowing down the pace of the song, similar to how 2 kaLai does in comparison to 1 kaLai song.

Around minute 25 ( half way ), he does kAlam variations on each of these 30 beats. first speed, tisram, second speed, khandam, thisram second speed, misram. Here you see the speed picking up as he goes up in number of subdivisions at this level.

This is not directly related to the MC, TT discussion but since that involved how you subdivide beats etc. this one provides an illustration of multiple levels of aggregation, one more than the usual.

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Post by arunk »

It is an amazing demo indeed.

And yes this is indeed an additional grouping. You are right in that the outer khaNDam is treated more like kaLai here rather gati. I like to instead look at it like you string 6 khaNDa Ekams together in a tiSra jhampa structure (to give the arudhi), and then you do that "inner" khaNDa ekam in various gatis. A tala within a tala. The "initial structute" is still khaNda gati - an outerbeat divided into 5 sub-units - although it doesnt drive home to us as the spacing is so wide. Also when those sub-units get divvied up into smaller parts that are not 1,2,4 multiples, it morphs w.r.t rhythmic feel to other gatis.

When we normally think of tiSra gati tiSra jhampa, it would be like 3a 3b 3c | 3d | 3e 3f (where a-f = 1, 2, 4 etc. i.e. 1 or multiples of two) .But here when he does tiSra naDai, n becomes 5, and he fits 15 in each outer beat i.e 15 15 15 | 15 | 15 15. It still is of course tiSra naDai gait - i am guessing because that 15 is done as 3+3+3+3+3 perhaps (you know as opposed to say 4+4+4+3 or 4+4+4+2 plus 1 pause). Similarly you had khaNDam (on top of the original khANDam ;) ) becomes 25 25 25 | 25 | 25 25 and miSram becomes 35 35 35 | 35 | 35.

Tangent (and we have been through this a lot :) ): But I also think sometimes demos like this lead us novices to mistakenly think that "khaNDa gati" is *always* faster than tiSra gati etc., and miSra gati will always be super-fast like here. But that is so only if you keep the outer-beat same and compare it with say tisra/catusra gati with the same outer beat spacing. The actual gait component itself (i.e. rhythmic pattern of 3,5, 7) is orthogonal to the internal spacing of the 3,5, 7.

Arun

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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun, good summary. I am on the same wavelength on those points.
The actual gait component itself (i.e. rhythmic pattern of 3,5, 7) is orthogonal to the internal spacing of the 3,5, 7.
RIght.

As you also wrote, the outer Khandam does not readily give the rhythmic feel of a khanda nadai, may be because it was quite spaced out. I tried to imagine it within myself at a faster and still I did not quite get that. It took some focussed listening to get that khandam feel to some extent. Then in kAlam variations, that rhythmic feel dominated so much, the outer beat feel went into hiding, only to reemerge periodically at the end of each kalam change.

His swaraprastharas are just amazing.

Question: Consider a normal 2 kaLai Adi pallavi, if they want to do thisram, would they do thisram on each of the 2 KaLai beats separately ( for a total of 16 triplets ) or divide the entire 2 beat duration together into 3 ( for a total of 8 triplets ). I can not readily find an RTP to check this out myself.

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Post by arunk »

I dont know about RTP but if you look at tiSram in varnam, they do it like here i.e. 33 33 33 33 | 33 33 | 33 33. I would guess RTPs be the same. In fact I would think kOrvais of tanis follow the same. But basically I would think you can also do it as 3 3 3 3 | 3 3 | 3 3.

Take this Bombay sister's varnam example: http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/9Ux ... .As1NMvHdW

Now we have 64 syllables in pallavi (sarasuDa.. to marulukonnadIra) + 64 syllables in anu-pallavi (girini... to samayamu) for a total of 128 syllables. They are rendered here (time index: 04:02) in two avarthanas as a combo of tiSram 1-kalam + tisram mel-kalam. The pallavi part is rendered in tisra 1st kalam and anupallavi part in tisram 2nd kalam. When this happens, the cool part is that he kalam switch ends up falling within an akshara duration, and 5 swaras are rendered in that duration. These are like 1 + 2 + 2 , where the first swara/syllable (which is of course s the very last swara of the pallavi) is in tisram 1st kalam duration, and each of the last 4 is in tisram mel kalam duration. So the akshara duration is split as 1/3 + 2*1/6 2*1/6 = 1. So a five swara fit but not as 5*1/5 or 2*1/5 + 3*1/5 (ta-ka ta-ki-Ta khaNDam) - :cool:

So

Code: Select all

       (24)          (12)    (12)       = (48)
3-3 3-3 3-3 3-3 | 3-3 3-3 | 3-3  3-3 ||
       
       (32)           (24)   (24)       = (80)
3-3 3-3 3-122 6-6 | 6-6 6-6 | 6-6 6-6 ||

48+80 = 128
Now one difference perhaps here with the other RTP example is that # of swaras going to be multiple of 2 (like 3-3, or 5-5, or 7-7), because original gati was catusram. In our earlier RTP example, it was taken like khANDam. But it is still the same methodology.

PS: I tried singing along. I find that once I get the "feel for the tisram speed/tempo" I can just sort of coast along. At least I can join in the middle of that first word sa..rasuDa, and do it. But the minute I think "now how do I fit 3 swaras in that original duration when so far I have been fiitting 2 or 4", and try to start on my own - I am doomed :)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Mar 2008, 22:25, edited 1 time in total.

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