VK,
The net effect of any of the schemes in 2a or 2b is changing the speed of either the song or the thala. I'm not clear on what you mean by built-in rhythm.
Misra Chapu Vs Trisra Triputa
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
bala, you are right. As practised in pratiloma in RTP, the inherent laya ( built-in rhythm ) of the song does not change and it is the kriya speed that changes and in that sense a pratiloma is a change in speed of the thala.
But I am looking at it from a different angle
If you accept my definition of laya strictly as the rhythm that is inherent in the song, then I am interested in exploring laya in that sense What this means is that we should set aside the thala and kriya for now. All we have is the song, its rhythmic structure with its stress points of various magnitudes and kinds occurring in some pattern and the melody that is laid over that structure. One result we can derive is: 2A defines the basic structure of the laya and 2B provides for variations on laya during the actual performance of the song. 2B variations can be built into the song itself as done by MD in his duritha kala passages. I am still thinking about this result, so feel free to shoot holes in this model.
If we look at it this way from a 'back to fundamentals/start from scratch' point of view, Thyagaraja's songs seem to use laya idioms and patterns that are orthogonal to the thala structure. We try to cast that laya on to the thala structure for external standardized representation wherever possible. This results in the common observation that songs in Adi have different laya personalities. ( I think Vijay and Arun will be sympathetic to this way of thinking based on what they had written before ).
A special case in point is the Desadi thala songs. The laya of those songs is a cycle of 4 groups with each group having an alternating major and minor stress points plus the major stress of the second group getting a heavier emphasis. When we cast that into Adi, we get the unusual 1.5 eduppu which is really an unnecessary complication. It could have been easily treated as an atheeta eduppu of this '4 groups of 2' pattern. Another advantage of looking at it from a laya point of view is, eduppus become simpler to deal with. The song starts on the major stress, before the major stress or after the major stress.
But I am looking at it from a different angle
If you accept my definition of laya strictly as the rhythm that is inherent in the song, then I am interested in exploring laya in that sense What this means is that we should set aside the thala and kriya for now. All we have is the song, its rhythmic structure with its stress points of various magnitudes and kinds occurring in some pattern and the melody that is laid over that structure. One result we can derive is: 2A defines the basic structure of the laya and 2B provides for variations on laya during the actual performance of the song. 2B variations can be built into the song itself as done by MD in his duritha kala passages. I am still thinking about this result, so feel free to shoot holes in this model.
If we look at it this way from a 'back to fundamentals/start from scratch' point of view, Thyagaraja's songs seem to use laya idioms and patterns that are orthogonal to the thala structure. We try to cast that laya on to the thala structure for external standardized representation wherever possible. This results in the common observation that songs in Adi have different laya personalities. ( I think Vijay and Arun will be sympathetic to this way of thinking based on what they had written before ).
A special case in point is the Desadi thala songs. The laya of those songs is a cycle of 4 groups with each group having an alternating major and minor stress points plus the major stress of the second group getting a heavier emphasis. When we cast that into Adi, we get the unusual 1.5 eduppu which is really an unnecessary complication. It could have been easily treated as an atheeta eduppu of this '4 groups of 2' pattern. Another advantage of looking at it from a laya point of view is, eduppus become simpler to deal with. The song starts on the major stress, before the major stress or after the major stress.
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srikant1987
- Posts: 2246
- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
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violinravi
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 14:23
If we refer the books, Misra Chapu is mentioned as "Chapu" and Khanda Chapu as "Jampa". Adi - with 1.5 eduppu as "Desadi" (though Desadi was practiced as .5 place atheetha eduppu in olden days). Practically, we can't equate some thalas due to the number differences. For example, Misra chapu in 3rd speed gives us only 14 mAththirais, where as Thisra thripudai gives 28 mAththirais.
Another argument is, Adi (Chathusra Thirupuda) and Khanda Jampa tala have 8 aksharas. But both cant be equated because of the reason that their formations are different. Some Thiruppugagh in Khanda Jampa, if rendered in Adi, will not fit to the Chandam of the song.
1 kalai and 2 kalai krithis certainly gives us a different feel, which cant be substituted by the other. Though in theory, some talas may look equal, may not be equal or acceptable practically.
Another argument is, Adi (Chathusra Thirupuda) and Khanda Jampa tala have 8 aksharas. But both cant be equated because of the reason that their formations are different. Some Thiruppugagh in Khanda Jampa, if rendered in Adi, will not fit to the Chandam of the song.
1 kalai and 2 kalai krithis certainly gives us a different feel, which cant be substituted by the other. Though in theory, some talas may look equal, may not be equal or acceptable practically.
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
A (admittedly) controversial take on this on my latest blog entry: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2008/11/07/ ... bout-tala/
Main point is that internal structure of the tala is largely immaterial from a strict laya standpoint to the concept of rhythm of a song (although tala may have helped the composer. It is an aid to laya, but laya exists on its own). Thus MC and TT are fully equivalent. I think some points may have been echoed by vk.
Arun
PS: obviously just my personal opinion and I state so at the top of the post itself. So no chance of this being mistaken as anything more significant
Main point is that internal structure of the tala is largely immaterial from a strict laya standpoint to the concept of rhythm of a song (although tala may have helped the composer. It is an aid to laya, but laya exists on its own). Thus MC and TT are fully equivalent. I think some points may have been echoed by vk.
Arun
PS: obviously just my personal opinion and I state so at the top of the post itself. So no chance of this being mistaken as anything more significant
Last edited by arunk on 08 Nov 2008, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
following suggestions from vijay, I would like post this request.
Can laya experts, mridangam and other percussive instrument professionals/practioneers chime in and help us (vk, vijay, myself and vidya) in the discussion we are having related to the thread's subject, and my above blog post - in my blog? In particular relating to equivalence (or lack of it) between a song in Tisra Nadai Adi vs. rUpaka? Please look at http://sunson.wordpress.com/a-bit-about ... madri-sute . Please leave your input as comments there. When you post, it asks for email - you dont necessarly have to provide a valid email address. Also it only sends reveals it to me, and I dont do spamming So don't be shy to post a comment because of that.
Thanks
Arun
Can laya experts, mridangam and other percussive instrument professionals/practioneers chime in and help us (vk, vijay, myself and vidya) in the discussion we are having related to the thread's subject, and my above blog post - in my blog? In particular relating to equivalence (or lack of it) between a song in Tisra Nadai Adi vs. rUpaka? Please look at http://sunson.wordpress.com/a-bit-about ... madri-sute . Please leave your input as comments there. When you post, it asks for email - you dont necessarly have to provide a valid email address. Also it only sends reveals it to me, and I dont do spamming
So don't be shy to post a comment because of that.Thanks
Arun
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iamkirinlemon
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 21:09
I've added a post to the end of the blog thread. I am not sure how many it will help, but it is there to look at. As far as tisra nadai adi vs. rupakam is concerned, the effect of each talam is different. Rupakam (the shorthand way of putting it) will be 12 12 12. Tisra nadai adi (1 kalai) is 123 123 123 123 123 123 123 123. Yes, 1 cycle of rupakam fits into 2 beats of tisra nadai adi, but it's important to take note of:
1) Total talam length: You can have krithi sections, korvais, etc that take up 6 or 12 cycles of rupakam, for example. They will not fit into tisra nadai adi because it's not a multiple of 4. Furthermore, the laghu / dhrutham structure of adi talam is not out the window just because it's tisra nadai. Tisra nadai shows up in other talams too, especially in RTP, and it will not be the same as tisra nadai in adi, even though they can all fit into rupakam as well.
2) Stress points: 121212 feels different from 123123. Both are 6 beats, but interpreted differently. Not just in our music; the 123 count is, for example, what lends a waltz its characteristic feel. The downbeat (1) is what gets more stress, and where there is a greater expectation of change. Tisra adi is similar. 121212, on the other hand, is a different pattern with 3 equally distributed stress points every 6, instead of 2 every 6.
I realize these points have been raised already in the discussion. I just want to echo this because it's a fundamental characteristic of the tala that you either feel or you don't feel. Just as some people have difficulty detecting sruthi alignment, some people may have difficulty detecting the 'groove' of a particular tala.
1) Total talam length: You can have krithi sections, korvais, etc that take up 6 or 12 cycles of rupakam, for example. They will not fit into tisra nadai adi because it's not a multiple of 4. Furthermore, the laghu / dhrutham structure of adi talam is not out the window just because it's tisra nadai. Tisra nadai shows up in other talams too, especially in RTP, and it will not be the same as tisra nadai in adi, even though they can all fit into rupakam as well.
2) Stress points: 121212 feels different from 123123. Both are 6 beats, but interpreted differently. Not just in our music; the 123 count is, for example, what lends a waltz its characteristic feel. The downbeat (1) is what gets more stress, and where there is a greater expectation of change. Tisra adi is similar. 121212, on the other hand, is a different pattern with 3 equally distributed stress points every 6, instead of 2 every 6.
I realize these points have been raised already in the discussion. I just want to echo this because it's a fundamental characteristic of the tala that you either feel or you don't feel. Just as some people have difficulty detecting sruthi alignment, some people may have difficulty detecting the 'groove' of a particular tala.
Last edited by iamkirinlemon on 12 Jan 2009, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: Misra Chapu Vs Tisra Triputa
30/3/12
The contents of this Thread are somewhat complex - atleast for me.
How do I raise a query on an earlier posting - like in this case Post # 4 by vijay ? Here, they are.
Post # 4 :
a) "Ne - 14 (Arudhi)"
I would like to understand how 14 ??
b) "Then - 4 (Eduppu)"
Is this AnAhata Eduppu = 4 / 56 ? I am not sure, since firstly, I don’t’ understand 14 for Arudhi above.
Is it formed by adding lots of Silence Counts ?
In 9527-kalai-vs-kalam-and-Gati-vs-nadai.html, Post # 2 sates :
"The tools of the trade that composers employ for this are : kArvai = silence, and straight multiplication and division of number of swaras per beat."
c) Further, is it not 3 + 2 + 2 for Tishra Triputa ? Then, how does 4 enter in the scene ?
d) I would like to understand the meaning of “Veechu” ??
IFF it is different from Arudhi, can we mark the Veechu Points also in the Excel Table - Post #29 of http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 6&start=25, the nice Excel Table created by Shriram and VK ?
See PS - 1 below.
e) Wrt Posts 11 & 16 - the suggestion for MC and TT, as given by VK :
Can we separate the Laghu and Dhritam as follows :
111.. 22.. 33....111.. 22.. 33 ( Mishra Chapu )
112.. 23.. 34....455.. 66.. 77 ( Tishra Triputa )
Even if it is Yes to above, I still don't understand the full import, yet.
***********************
PS : It may be preferable to read this Post together with my foll Posts, also sent today in :
- 1006 - Excel Table for Sapta TALams
on the Excel Table for Sapta TALams.
- 9527 - kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai
on kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai.
***********************
Thanks in Advance (TIA).
...
The contents of this Thread are somewhat complex - atleast for me.
How do I raise a query on an earlier posting - like in this case Post # 4 by vijay ? Here, they are.
Post # 4 :
a) "Ne - 14 (Arudhi)"
I would like to understand how 14 ??
b) "Then - 4 (Eduppu)"
Is this AnAhata Eduppu = 4 / 56 ? I am not sure, since firstly, I don’t’ understand 14 for Arudhi above.
Is it formed by adding lots of Silence Counts ?
In 9527-kalai-vs-kalam-and-Gati-vs-nadai.html, Post # 2 sates :
"The tools of the trade that composers employ for this are : kArvai = silence, and straight multiplication and division of number of swaras per beat."
c) Further, is it not 3 + 2 + 2 for Tishra Triputa ? Then, how does 4 enter in the scene ?
d) I would like to understand the meaning of “Veechu” ??
IFF it is different from Arudhi, can we mark the Veechu Points also in the Excel Table - Post #29 of http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 6&start=25, the nice Excel Table created by Shriram and VK ?
See PS - 1 below.
e) Wrt Posts 11 & 16 - the suggestion for MC and TT, as given by VK :
Can we separate the Laghu and Dhritam as follows :
111.. 22.. 33....111.. 22.. 33 ( Mishra Chapu )
112.. 23.. 34....455.. 66.. 77 ( Tishra Triputa )
Even if it is Yes to above, I still don't understand the full import, yet.
***********************
PS : It may be preferable to read this Post together with my foll Posts, also sent today in :
- 1006 - Excel Table for Sapta TALams
on the Excel Table for Sapta TALams.
- 9527 - kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai
on kaLai, kAlam and Gati / nadai.
***********************
Thanks in Advance (TIA).
...