Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
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mridangamkid
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Post by mridangamkid »

Wow, I could have sworn I posted this a couple weeks ago, in fact I'm positive because I remember analyzing each separate phrase I played. Anyway, I'm very sorry that everyone had to wait for so long, but here are two downloads.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pdfmbz

http://www.sendspace.com/file/nh99br

These two downloads are sent to rupaka thalam, one is me saying the farans mohara and korvai, and one is me playing the exact same thing.

As you can tell, the farans started with a "Dhim, tharikita thaka dhim", however I played "Thankita dhikutharikitathaka jhem kita dhikutharikitathaka" to make it fit in rupaka (the important thing is, though, that it started with the "dhim-, tharikita thaka"

As for the mohara- as you can hear, it starts with the phrase "Dhi- than kita dhikutharikitathaka dhikutharikitahaka". As said earlier, this is the most common way of starting it (I added an extra dhikutharikithaka to keep it into thalam), although it doesn't HAVE to start start like this. What it does HAVE to have is the "Thalango thom dhi thalango thom"or some variation (in this case, it is the Thalangu thom dhi thom- Thalangu thom dhi thom). For the Mohara, you can tell that it is reducing as the lesson progresses, first you have the 2 whole cycles twice (if you are keeping thalam in the tradition 6 beat cycle), then you play 5 beats (starting 1 beat before samam) because you end with just "Thalongu thom". You then play half of this one more time, and then finish it off with the theermanam "Thalongu thom dhi thom, thalongu thom dhi thom, thalongu thom dhi".

Later as you learn more, you will see that you don't necessarily need to play the "Thalongu" patterns, however becuase you are first learning, just be associated with this (because it is most commonly employed).

As for the korvai, just know whatever is being played is being repeated 3 times, so after the third time, the song is picked up (I just played a small bit at the end because no song was being picked up).

I'm sorry I couldn't give a clearer understanding of this, I'm actually on a rush to go somewhere now (I just did this quick because I felt bad it didn't go through last time), but if I didn't make anything clear, I'll be sure to make it clearer later.

Sorry again.

DISCLAIMER: All mess ups from the recorded audio shown above is merely a figment of your imagination ;) :D

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks very much MK. I listened to them once and you sound very well. I will give it a few more listens later on to understand the content well. Thanks.

bilahari
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Post by bilahari »

Thank you, mkid. I will listen next week and get back to you with my doubts, of which I'm sure there'll be plenty!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

MK, Excellent job. I listened to your recordings many times and I think I got it.

Here are the timelines I arrived at based on the guidelines you provided.

Konnakkol:

Mohra starts at 0:49

Final korvai starts at 1:20

First repeat is from 1:20 to 1:28
second repeat is from 1:28 to 1:36
third repeat is from 1:36 to 1:45

And the take off point is 1:45

Mridangam:

Mohra starts at 0:52

final Korvai starts at 1:26

First repeat is from 1:26 1:35
second repeat is from 1:35 to 1:44
third repeat is from 1:44 to 1:53

And the take off point is 1:53

If you and other can, please check out my timeline and provide any corrections. The time may be off by one second, which is OK for our purposes.

Thanks very much mridangamkid. You are now officially a teacher for many of us :)

mridangamkid
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Joined: 03 Sep 2007, 22:11

Post by mridangamkid »

Perfect. I have absolutely nothing planned tomorrow (summer holidays is a beautiful thing), so if you'd like, I can quickly record the Farans Mohara Korvai in Adi, Kanda Chapu, and Mishra Chapu as well, just for some added practice.

In the meantime, if you would like, I suggest watching this youtube video,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJbiILmfuPc

It is of Bhaktavatsalam sir, Harishankar sir, and E.M Subramaniam sir. The whole thani is superb, but in it, it is quite clear and easy to spot where the mohara starts and where the Korvai starts. If you don't want to watch the whole video, start at about 3:00 minutes in, that is where they start to play together. The Farans are a bit ambiguous because 3 instruments are playing together, so it isn't as systematic as my example was, however see if you can spot out where the mohara starts and where the korvai starts, and you will be able to tell when the song starts back up.

vganesh
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Post by vganesh »

VK Sir. Make the heading as "Idiots guide ......" and sticky also :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

vganesh: Good idea. I was thinking of the same thing too. Done.

mridangamkid: Yes, we will all definitely appreciate Farans, Mohara and Korvai in Adi, Kanda Chapu, and Mishra Chapu. If you can, please provide the timeline on when the various units begin and end.

Just for my own use, I have broken up your konnakkol and mridangam recording into Farans, Mohra, and Korvai into separate files and then for the Korvai, the three repeats separately and finally, the ending triple pattern of the 3rd repeat just before take back. This way, each piece can be listened to individually to get familiar with those pattern. If you do not mind and if others want it, I can upload it to esnips.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks for that youtube link mk. Yes, after your lesson, I can now spot the mohra beginning time, korvai beginning time and when MLV was going to pick the song back up. Quite nice. And what an explosive thani it is.

mridangamkid
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Joined: 03 Sep 2007, 22:11

Post by mridangamkid »

I just finished the three thalams.

I played a bit before the farans just to show how one may lead up to it, and I tried to keep the Farans short because I know the main concern is Mohara. Just keep in mind I didn't do the traditional "Dhi- thankita", patterns, in all three thalams I started it off a bit different, meaning if you can tell where they start, you really understand it.

Here's Kanda Chapu
http://www.sendspace.com/file/gvn8ua

Mishra
http://rapidshare.com/files/237641505/misrah.wav.html

and Adi

http://www.sendspace.com/file/sam452

If there are any concerns or problems please tell.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Excellent. Thanks MK. Very good playing.

I listened to the three once. I will have to spend some more time with it.

Now, in khanda chapu, I think I got the three segments: farans, mohra and korvai.

The other two, I have to listen again, it is a bit fuzzy still to get comfortable in recognizing the patterns.

But one thing you taught us which stuck well for me is the Mohra finishing sequence, namely, the three 'THALONGU THOM DHI THOM' sequence. I can recognize them in all your playing. That is my light house. You hide that or fuzzify it, I am in big trouble ;)

Now, having gotten that, my difficulty is in the korvai, in getting the boundaries/demarcation of the three repeats. I am going to rely on the feature from your rupaka korvai where each of the repeats themselves had a three part ending sequence. That acted as a nice marker for each repeat. Can I depend on having that for yours as well as other thani avarthanams in general?

This way, I do not have to keep the thalam to figure out exactly where it is going to end, just that pattern is good enough. Let me know if that kind of a marker for each repeat always exists.

Thanks.

mridangamkid
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Joined: 03 Sep 2007, 22:11

Post by mridangamkid »

Yeah as I said the "Thalongu Thom Dhi Thalongu Thom", really helps, however again keep in mind, it doesn't HAVE to be that, it just usually is.

Here is a tough example from Pazhani sir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c9j_Eu9YRw

I'd be surprised if you are able to find the placement of the Mohara (hint, it is in Thisra Nadai), however, this is an example of a 'difficult' mohara. This is one reason why one shouldn't just rely on the "thalongu Thom dhi Thalongu thom", all of the time, though it may work for 80%, and why one should put thalam with a long with the thani.

If you see here,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsDxH8gYGZU

Narayan sir started the Mohara at around the 3:10 mark, and (although it is hard to make out), he doesn't play the traditional "Thalongu Thom Dhi Thalongu Thom", from what I hear, he is play "Dhi Thalongu thom - Thalongu Thom", but the structure of the mohara stays the same in that it winds down to the final "Thalongu Thom dhi Thom, thalongu Thom dhi Thom, Thalongu Thom dhi Thom", or whatever it may be. THAT, is what one has to learn, the structure of the mohara, the Thalongu Thom dhi is a nice cue, however it won't work one hundred percent of the time.

There is actually an equation that relates to the mohara and how to form one, however I think that, that is a little too much for now. I"m not even sure if I'm explaining it well in the first place (and if not, please tell).

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Mkid: Your training is paying off. Even without keeping thalam I managed to detect the re-take point in a couple of thanis, including one by PMI.

Here is where I am:

1) Get wrong signals before farans due to the abundance of 3-peat patterns.
2) Sort of know when the farans are going on due to the fast strokes
3) Still do not know how to detect the beginning of Mohra
4) If they do the 3-peat thalongu, then I sort of know when Korvai begins.
5) I can then sense the 3-peat of the overall pattern each of which has two sub-patterns, each of those two sub-patterns have a 3-peat pattern.

Most of the time I sense step 2 and step 5. I know step 5 is going on most definitely but occasionally fail to detect the re-take point.

I try to do all this with just getting at the pattern without keeping the thala.

mridangamkid
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Post by mridangamkid »

I see, that is why I always find it easiest to identify the mohara. Just because a pattern is fast, doesn't mean that it is part of the Farans. And just because one piece is being played 3 times, doesn't mean its the "final korvai", it is a still a korvai, but that isn't where one would pick up the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OX2TuHm ... -fresh+div

Here is an amazing thani from Sankaran sir, however it is during a concert, so nobody picks up from it. The mohara is very easy to identify here however it does not have the "Thalongu Thom dhi Thalongu thom" at the end, one should still be able to pick it up. (After the "final korvai" is played, sir still plays a little something in the end just to give completion to the Thani, just a little FYI)

And please, if somebody can explain a bit better, or correct me in any of my errors, please do so. I don't want to give false information or even "half-truth" information. All information I am giving is just information I learned from the past and if it is not right, that probably means I didn't learn correctly, so please correct if needed.

cacm
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Post by cacm »

Mridangam kid,
You are correct. One of these days I will persuade my friend PROF.V.Radhakrisshnan - theoretical physicist-Student of MDR, FLUTE RAMANI & T.K.MURTHY to write his UNIVERSAL FORMULA which totally simplifies all thes types of relationships. VKV

vganesh
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Post by vganesh »

Good thread & analysis. I am trying to pick up from the lesson. let me see If I can. But even if it is "Thalongu Thom dhi Thalongu thom", is it not who is playing in which concert?. I feel it is a choice depending on the time availabilyt, audience, the person who is playing etc., For example If it is UKS sir then Thani may be allowed from one korvai to other or one thalam to other thalam and so on. Correct me If I am wrong.

mridangamkid
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Post by mridangamkid »

The 'Thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom" has nothing to do with time availability, irregardless of what one plays, it has to fill in those 12 beats (13th being thom). As you see in Shankaran sir's thani (the link posted above), in the mohara, he plays "Thakadhina Thakadhina Thakadhina Thom". Thakadhina Thakadhina Thakadhina being 12 beats... and thom. The only reason why I said listen for the Thalongu Thom dhi Thalongu Thom is because it seems to be the most commonly played phrase... why? I'm not sure. I have heard that different styles plays different endings but I can't confirm on that, I figure they just change it for the sake change.

As for the overall thani itself. I always felt it was due to the song you are playing the thani for. If the song is only 7 minutes long, you wouldn't want to play a 20 minute thani of course, while if the song was an elaborate 40 minute RTP... a longer thani would be suitable.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

mridangamkid wrote:I see, that is why I always find it easiest to identify the mohara.
Tell me more. May be I missed it when you first taught us this. What clues are there to detect the start of the Mohra?

mridangamkid
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Post by mridangamkid »

Mohara is USUALLY started with a "Dhi- Thankita dhikuthari kitathaka" (as shown in the Sankaran sir korvai above), but doesn't have to (as shown in the Pazhani sir thani and the one I played), and is USUALLY easily recognized with the Thalongu Thom dhi Thalongo thom... but doesn't have to be played that way (as shown in the Sankaran sir thani above).

The reason why I am emphasizing the "thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom" is because it is most commonly played, or at least a variation of that. But once you figure out that the mohara is being played, you KNOW that the next piece will be a korvai, and that korvai will be the "final" korvai no matter what.

Farans can also help, but it also can be very ambiguous, in the sense that just because something is being fast, doesn't mean that the farans are being played. Likewise, just because a korvai is being played (meaning a elaborate piece is being repeated 3), doesn't mean that that is where the artist picks up. However when the mohara is played, one KNOWS that is where the artists picks up.....


and if all else fails... look at the violinist and see if he's getting ready :-p

vganesh
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Post by vganesh »

The 'Thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom" has nothing to do with time availability, irregardless of what one plays,
You got me completely wrong :) . I generally told that an ending does not necessarily with a specific korvai, it is more to do with that days' concert. Thalongu is more common. I also obervered that many a time vidwans play the mohra 'thee thakita thakadom thakita thalang thom thi thalang dhom ......" , then a korvai and close.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

mridangamkid:

> "Dhi- Thankita dhikuthari kitathaka" but doesn't have to .......... Thalongu Thom dhi Thalongo thom... but doesn't have to be played that way

Would either one be there in a recognizable form? If neither one is required we are left with nothing, aren't we?

mridangamkid
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Post by mridangamkid »

Ha, I kinda noticed that after I posted it. Sorry for making this more confusing than this should be.

I gave the Dhi- Thankita dhikuthari kitathaka because that is the most common way of starting the mohara, so in most thani's you will hear that but don't be too dependent on it because it's not mandatory to play that.

The same goes with the Thalongu Thom dhi.... it is most commonly played but it isn't mandatory.

What IS mandatory, is the fact that one plays a cycle ending with a 12 beat phrase (may it be thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom or thakadhina thakadhina thakadhina thom). You play this twice, then you one cycle but rather than ending with a 12 beat phrase, end with a 4 beat phrase (thalongu thom or thakadhina thom). Play half a cycle ending with the same 4 beat phrase. And finally end it off with a 16 beat ending (thalongu thom dhi thom - thalongu thom dhi thom - thalongu thom dhi thom OR thakadhina thakadhina thom -thakadhina thakadhina thom -thakadhina thakadhina.

The problem with explaining it like this however is without putting thalam, the number I am telling you means nothing, making you even more confused.

So again, at first, forget everything about "it doens't have to be this or that". First look for the Dhi- Thankita....." and the "Thalongu thom dhi thalongu thom" just to get the general feel for the mohara, and after a couple listens, it s houdln't be too tough to pick it up.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I will use that to try to detect that pattern in the mohra. Thx.

Vijayakumar
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Post by Vijayakumar »

@mridangamkid,

Thanks for your wonderful posts. in the post 46, "thalangu thom thi thalangu thom" is said as a 12 beat phrase whereas it is actually an 8 beat phrase when used in a mohra. (same for thakadina thakadina thakadina thom). please let me know if I am right.

By the way, I am about 40 and started learning mridangam about 2 yrs back and continuing. all the information that are presented in this forum are extremely useful for me.
Last edited by Vijayakumar on 03 Aug 2009, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

mridangamkid
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Post by mridangamkid »

You are correct sir, thank you for the correction.

Vijayakumar
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Post by Vijayakumar »

Thanks Mridangamkid. May I know your name please.(and a little bit more too...From the profile out here, i understand that you are based in Detroit, right?)
I never imagined that so many useful information about music and the thala system, particularly mridangam can be discussed over the web forums. Thanks to all those who spare their valuable time to share such useful information.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vijayakumar: You are quite right in your observation. You should also check out the excellent posts on Korvai by member Sri. Balaji . http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... thani.html .

He is a professional mridangam artist and he always spares time for us by answering questions in detail and contributing on matters related to music.

And msakellaji's writings in this forum on matters related to thala and matters related to teaching of music are invaluable.

Vijayakumar
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Post by Vijayakumar »

@Vasanthakokilam
I am going through those material as well and they are indeed quite useful. thanks to R Balaji for his excellent inputs.
Last edited by Vijayakumar on 12 Aug 2009, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.

Yazh
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Post by Yazh »

Anything new?

veeyens3
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by veeyens3 »

Pardon the digression. This anecdote is about an incident in the 50s. The accompanying percussion were endowed luxuriant hair hen they came and sat on the dais in their respective places, their tufts were nicely secured as knots and were hanging like short pendulams from their napes.The concert passed through the usual phases and came to Thani stage.Then a rasika, sitting in front of me on the floor, asked his companion as while their playing appeared to be different, it appeared that they were playing the same e syllables when playing together and how the vocalist and the voilonist know when to join them. What is the chemistry between them and was there any earlier rehearsal.As the subject intrigued me (even now it is no better) I eagerly kept my ears sharp for the clarification from the “expert” He said no problem. You watch the tufts, the moment they unfurl and flay like “virittha chenjadayada” all the four play together.Believe me, this idiot thought that was true.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by vasanthakokilam »

veeyens, that is quite funny.

veeyens3
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by veeyens3 »

Like Rip Van Winkle. I recently came across this thread and could not resist the temptation to throw a spanner into an otherwise calm peaceful excercise

Sense of laya is an inborn instinct and cannot be injected to anybody. You can easily identify if a person has laya in him If he has that gift, he will see a rhythm or pattern even in mundane things You can easily see how most of the people of the carrebians exhibit their gift in the gait they walk. I want to recapture an incident which happened half a century back.In those days broad gauge railway track was laid with 40 ft. rails. To cater for expansion and contraction depending upon the temperature, the rails were joined with a little gap in between them. Resulting in a noise like tick developing every time the carriage wheel passes over them. A coach is mounted over two short wheel based trucks called bogie on either ends, Thus when a coach passes over a section it will produce two quick tick tick sound as one bogie passes over one joint and after an interval two more tick ticks will be producd. Imagine sitting in a compartment on a running train.As the rear bogie of the previous coach passes over a joint, you will hear a faint click, then after a short interval a strong tick tick will be heard, then after a longer interval another strong tick tick will be heard as the rear bogie of your coach passes over the joint followed by a short interval faint tick tick , as the front bogie of the coach next to yours passes over the joint If the train travels at a constant speed-you will hear tick tick -TICK---TICK-tick , be repeated.the For a non laya perrson it is nothing more than monotonous noise, the thavil player of a nathaswaram party travelling in the same compartment saw a regular tala pattern in it and promptly started an impromptu teaching session to the young boy who usually keeps thalaam with cymbals in a concert. As the train passed over joints and crossings, the pattern was disturbed annoying the thavil player. Just as a bhaktha sees divinity in everything, a person blessed with inbuilt layam sees thalam in everything, and bye the bye, he will have no diffculty in anticipating the end of the thani session May Sri Rama bless you all

raghavt
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by raghavt »

A person who has never learnt any Karnatak Percussion Instrument can easily recognize the end of a tani if he has good amount of experience in attending concerts. It can be correlated to some people recognizing rAgam who have not been trained in classical music formally. How? we can say 'KelviGnAnam'. They may not necessarily know the defnition of that rAgam, still they can identify it. Similarly, the long mora patterns can be recognized by a seasoned listner. I think that is the only point where he can expect that yes, after a couple of minutes, the tani is going to end. He may not recognize the end of the mora and starting of the korvai. Thanks

Nick H
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by Nick H »

Yes, I agree --- although I miss it sometimes. The long mohara always follows the same form. Even though I can only recite the adi talam mohara, I can still recognise it in other talams. It is not so hard.

srikant1987
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by srikant1987 »

But I think it's about the exact split-second when the song is to be begun. Otherwise the melodic instrumentalist is always there to guide us (even in veena / gOTTuvAdyam solo / nAdaswaram concerts). ;)

mohan
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by mohan »

As others have mentioned the song will recommence after the mohara (which is generally a standard pattern) and korvai (which is repeated three times). The problem usually is in recognising the korvai. If you are putting talam, the song will recommence at the eddupu, so that will be a guide. Usually each of the three parts of the korvai will finish on the eduppu but at times each may finish a different point in the tala.

srikant1987
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by srikant1987 »

The problem usually is in recognising the korvai. If you are putting talam, the song will recommence at the eddupu,
If you can put talam correctly through the tani, you probably can recognise korvais. ;)

Putting tALam "correctly" through tanis doesn't take as much nuclear-clock precision as it takes an intuitive understanding of the commonly-employed ways to play with rhythm. =)

Nick H
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by Nick H »

... then I never achieved either!

It is very difficult to actually hold onto the beat through complex syncopation. Musicians take it for granted that they can do it; many rasikas have accomplished it either by having been music students to sufficient level or by simple practice.

However, to know that the korvais will always end with some variation of Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom (you can call it 1 2 3 4 5 if you don't feel comfortable with the language, although I am sure most rasikas are) repeated three times, and that the whole korvais will be repeated three times is not so tough. In fact, further explanation would make it seem more complex than it actually is in practice!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>and that the whole korvais will be repeated three times is not so tough.

Right. Most people can use a bit of hand-holding about that cue but not too difficult.

Similar such '3' patterns are employed by the main artist with their own kOrvai during kalpanaswarams. That is easier to relate to and can help in detecting similar patterns in the thani.

Nick H
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by Nick H »

Yes, exactly. If it is employed, the ending of the final swara, at least, will be a korvais.

Sometimes mridangists echo this same pattern in their tani. However, the final tani korvais can be anything from short and simple to long and very complex.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Idiot's Guide to when to pick the song back after the th

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I think this video of the thani with the mridangist uttering the sollus is a good companion material to understanding mridangamkid's detailed description of the ending korvai of the thani. It is great to listen to in general as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-3uxg_FW5s

minisantu
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Re:

Post by minisantu »

[quote="vasanthakokilam"]First level answer is, when the violinist picks up the bow. But then how does the violinist know? The mridangist raises the eyebrows three times to indicate the end ;) Just kidding..

Lol! Loved your humor :)

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