Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by uday_shankar »

vk...my intention of stating your "law" is to actually agree with you. I still don't see the point of hard consonants being "karvaiyable". Even in the hostage situation, true kaarvai comes to life only when the vowel gets added, as at the point when the gag breaks free and the hostage yells at the captors..."bbbbbbaaaast**d" or "ggggggodddddaaaamit" :).

While srikanth is at it, I'd also like to hear the kaarvai of the aspirated consonants :)...like "bh", "th", etc...

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

uday_shankar wrote: the Vasanthakokilam law of kaarvais as follows: when there's no sound heard ,it is meaningless to call it a kaarvai.
Not for a mridangist, it isn't :)

srikant1987
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by srikant1987 »

Uday,

No, aspirated consonants aren't kArvaiable, because the aspiration itself is voiceless. And I have agreed that the series k-c-T-RT-t-p is unkArvaiable.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

So what do you guys call a pause, a silence?

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by rshankar »

Nick H wrote:So what do you guys call a pause, a silence?
A pregnant one (pause), perhaps? :)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Uday: Got it.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by vasanthakokilam »

As a case in point about syncopation in desAdi thala songs...
I was listening to Raghuvamsasudha... by MS yesterday. There is a palpable syncopation on the 'dha'. It is stressed in the song and it falls between the 5th and 6th beats. Chembai's version is similar. I checked out other versions, some extend the 'su' a bit more so 'dha' falls on the beat without any syncopation. Maharajapuram Santhanam's version is an example of this.

And in all the versions, syncopation is there to a slightly lesser extent on the 'va', but the 'va' gets a relatively lower stress than the following 'm' or 'am' which is on the beat.

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by mahavishnu »

of course, the chittasvaram in raghuvamsudha offers enormous scope for syncopation...

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I was listening to MSS's 'dina maNi vaMSa tilaka lAvaNya dIna SaraNya', link provided by cienu (http://www.mediafire.com/?5qmqkmaxhtmhha4)
and noticed this 'stop consonant kArvai'(SCK) in abundance in the pallavi at the highlighted consonants: dina maNi vaMSa tilaka lAvaNya dIna SaraNya

Not that this is news to many or uncommon but I thought I will post this as an illustration of Thyagaraja's use of SCK, given our discussion above on related topics.

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by mahavishnu »

VK, very interesting. And the stop consonant drags on for almost half an avartanam!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by vgovindan »

There should be a perceptible gap (space) between 'dina maNi vaMSa tilaka' and 'lAvANya'. Many people think, it is 'tilaka lAvaNya'. It is not. 'lAvaNya' is a separate epithet.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by arunk »

I think nasals (na, ma, n# ~n etc.) are still voiced and so are not exactly the same as others. A good area to explore stretchability of consonants may be is to look at varnams.

Arun

Sundar Krishnan
Posts: 496
Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Sundar Krishnan »

When I first read the words "Brain Rhythm" and "scientific basis" in the Title of this thread, for a moment, I initially thought that this is probably something about Music's effect on Brain Waves etc.

Then, as I read through some postings, I realised that it is more to do with kAlapramANam, which word too, yes, appears in the Title.
(Also, there is a comma between Brain and Rhythm.)

However, it may still be good if we can have some disc on which of the CM Ragams are more beneficial during convalescence, in improving memory, etc.

For eg, personally, I have found Maharajapuram Santanam's songs very soothing - be it Mohanam, or ShanmukhaPriya, or Sahana (Giri Pai), or Shuddha Dhanyasi, or practically any Ragam. There is something so special in his voice and in his effortless singing, that soothes us.
More so, when he is accompanied by Shri Vellore Ramabhadran's soft supporting Mridangam.

I would like to know if any serious scientific study has been conducted wrt CM Music's effect on Brain Waves like Alpha Waves, Theta Waves, Delta Waves etc. Shri Santanam's songs would probably rate in the forefront in such studies.

I have found the foll links on Brain Waves useful :

http://www.web-us.com/primitivebeats.htm

http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/a/a_11/ ... p_cyc.html - this relates these Brain waves to diff stages of Sleep.

...

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

However, it may still be good if we can have some disc on which of the CM Ragams are more beneficial during convalescence, in improving memory, etc.
I think you'll find that there are threads.

This one is really about rhythm, and it hinges around that which has been scientifically observed, or is being scientifically researched.

I absolutely do not suggest that we should be restricted, in our love of music, appreciation of music, observation of its effects on ourselves --- by science. But I do suggest that this thread should be kept to rhythm and science.

We can discuss anything; somewhere else :)

hema
Posts: 124
Joined: 20 Dec 2010, 23:28

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by hema »

These posts are really interesting. Need to read up to understand better.

-hema

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by mahavishnu »

Hema: with your authoritative knowledge of signal processing, I am sure you will have a lot to say about matters related to phase and period of a rhythm.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

I had an interesting "brain-counting" experience recently.

Sitting on a metro train, in Singapore, listening to the announcements and the beebeebeebeebeebeep sound when the doors close, I suddenly realised that I knew how many beeps there were! Not in the sense that I could have given the number directly, but my brain knew that there were six groups of four plus two. Inside my head, this comes across as a semi-visual symbolic representation: I see six squares, etc...

Arriving at the conscious answer of 26, I could not believe I had done this, nor did I know if the number would be constant anyway, so you can guess how I spent the rest of the trip! I could confirm that every door-closing was accompanied by 26 beeps. I also confirmed, by counting in threes, that there was no actual rhythm in the sound: all beeps were equal. Another day, I was counting in fives, for the exercise. i didn't manage sevens. On another line there were only 13 beeps.

So... the conclusion is that I just might not be as innumerate or laya-challenged as I have often claimed :$. The brain seems to know more than we realise.

By the way... a hint from a fellow mridangam classmate, who was also a western drummer, was, "for fours, think squares, for threes, think triangles." It is a symbolism that works for me.

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by mahavishnu »

A wonderful lecture on some practical aspects of kAlapramANam by Vid. R Vedavalli.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mz6-IpTivI

Seeing the video made me think of this thread almost immediately. Smt RV covers a number of topics relevant to this thread including Ottam, ideal tempo and how timing interacts with melodic/syntactic aspects of compositions. And she presents with such comfort and poise.

P.S: Nick, I wish the Tamil in this video was more penetrable. I think you would have liked this lecture very much. But I guess your appreciation of mami's scholarship goes beyond language and its limited confines

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Mahavishnu. Awesome talk indeed. I agree with what you said about the content. She makes a very good point about how viLamba kAla (slow) songs have less sahitya since the vowels are stretched out to fill more of the tala avarta and duritha kala songs have more dense sahitya with almost a syllable per beat. It makes sense.

In addition, her characteristic little jabs and witty remarks make it quite a bit of fun as well. Too bad it was only for half an hour.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by msakella »

Though much is needed to write in this context I am constrained to write that it would have been very apt had she rightly quoted the reference of the ‘Maatra’ as the Kala-pramana of our music which is almost equal to the duration of one second and which is furnished even in the Taladhyaya of our great Sangita Ratnakara of 12-13 century. amsharma

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

She probably didn't because almost everybody else says Akshara as the unit, divided into Mathras.

It's like two different systems of weights and measures. Neither is wrong, but one may belong to a minority. The older people can cope, just as I can cope with pounds/ounces or kilograms, miles or km. For the young it is a confusion, just as one young child once asked me what a "yard" is.

What people measured distance in back in the twelfth century, I have no idea, but I know that there is no more point in trying to get India to abandon km and return to miles, or in trying to get America or England to abandon miles and take up km.

However many hundreds of years it took to do it, the akshara won the battle.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by msakella »

To an Indian the Sanskrit-word ‘akshara’ means which cannot be destroyed or divided and it carries only one unit. Even mathematically or logically one is not divided at all. There is no difference of opinion in this. Mathra is only divisive. An individual is the part and parcel of the society but the society is not the part and parcel of an individual. In the same manner even logically the un-divisiive akshara is the part and parcel of the Mathra but mathra is not the part and parcel of the akshara. The elders must feed the best food to the kids.

Our Indian music is full of such illogicalities and irrationalities created by these musicians themselves. There is no exaggeration in writing that all these musicians are surviving on these illogicalities and irrationalities only and I can prove this beyond any doubt at any time and place. That is why none of these musicians comes out for any open discussion even for the benefit of the aspirants as all these illogicalities and irrationalities only help them loot the aspirants and their parents as they like. Very sadly, even the reputed institutions turn a deaf ear towards such problems of the aspirants. That is the pity of this country. amsharma

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

That may be, but you will understand that the student follows what the guru has taught, and the guru learnt from the guru, so this once aspirant is not going to change. I don't think the guru is either, and to that Indian, I can assure you that akshara does not mean something that cannot be divided. Nor would it have done to his guru. Nor would it have done to his guru, I suppose, so if all have got it wrong, let us blame Sri PSP and his teachers --- or let us just go on understanding each other *without confusion* regardless of ancient history or etymology.

If you are comfortable with your rods, poles, perches, furlongs and fathoms, you are comfortable, and your students will be comfortable too. The problem will come when they try to talk to other students. In the end, all will be understood, because it is known that some say this, some say that, but it is a stumbling block we do not need.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by sureshvv »

The word "atom" was chosen because at one point it was believed to be indivisible. May be our (CM) "akshara" is like that. No need to drop the word because of its original connotation. If we started doing that, it would be like the street/city renaming madness of our politicians.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, Nick H,

I am a very little educated person having the least familiarity with your mother tongue, English. Like many people I am also very well convenient with my mother-tongue only. However, I try to find suitable words to express my feelings in my posts when, sometimes, I loose the track too. In such case how can I ably make a foreigner properly understand? It is not that easy to me.

As you wrote anybody can confidently remain comfortable with his/her own rods, poles, perches, furlongs and fathoms but the problem will come only when he/she tries to interact with other students. But, if the teacher properly understands that this stumbling block is the only deciding factor of the aspirant’s future he/she certainly takes the proper step then and there to remove this stumbling block. But, unfortunately, many of our music-teachers have become used to get along with such traditional stumbling blocks. By removing such stumbling blocks only I could remove all the illogicalities and irrationalities and bring out a flawless and reliable system of learning our music for the first time in the history.

Even though I did not learn from anybody I was also a Mridangist in the beginning of my life starting from my 3rd year up to 10th year of age. From my 17th year of age only I have started my Violin. Thus, I am very well acquainted with both these instruments and also Vocal. However, I believe that Mridangam, which could be managed with only one note and along with the respective mathematics, is not that complicated like Violin. For example, even while the Mridangist keeps quiet for much of the time in the concert the Violinist is not allowed to take rest even in the Mridangam-tani. That was the pity of my life.

Besides this, I was also taught by all my Gurus with all these illogicalities and irrationalities and became aware of this only in the serious introspection made only after 5 years after my retirement. Then only I could become aware how much harm I did to my kids all along my service. Now, nobody appreciates me if I write that all this happened due to the sheer negligence of our forefathers only being performers but not teachers at all. In the same manner I had also to spend 40 years of my life only to dig out the Talaprastara being the only unsolved problem of our music. By all these failures, except in respect of Talaprastara, most of my life has become wasteful and harmful too.

Thus, having already lead a mixed life of a parasitical performer and an efficient cheater for more than 40 years, now, I am able to serve our people of my limited locality, at the least, truly and truthfully with honesty and self-satisfaction getting amazing end-results without ending my life as a cheater only. However, interested persons can only follow my well-disciplined and logical methods and others need not. And, at the same time, I am also very much beholden to all our brother and sister-members of this forum for bearing with all my odds all along.

Fortunately, your western music has very well been standardized with a system consisting around 8 grades or so and followed by all the world. But, very sadly, even though there is every scope to properly standardize our music also our lethargic musicians never agree to do so or do anything in this respect even though it helps a lot to one and all. That is why none of them did ever wantonly follow or develop the symbolized notation of Subbarama Dikshitar (1900).

In general education the languages, mathematics and sciences are taught giving the knowledge of the basic ingredients of them in a short time of 5 or 6 years. Later, the aspirant can have his choice among them and proceed further. In this way within a span of one year for vocal and 3 years for Violin I have brought out a logical system of learning music. Later, basing upon the choice of the aspirant he/she can continue the same or shift to any other career. Even after spending 10 or 15 years in learning our music if there is no guarantee of attaining a successful career in music then what is the use of spending this much of time I do not understand. Thus, while the success or failure of the poor aspirant will only be decided after 10 or 15 years in this illogical, conservative and wastefully elongated system of learning I am able to make the aspirant knowledgeable and confident enough hardly within the span of two or three years in learning our music on his/her own. If any other music-teacher does the same even earlier than me I am ready to learn things from him/her and do the needful for the benefit of our aspirants. amsharma

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

Sir,

I am not suggesting that you change. I would have no right whatsoever to do that.

I am suggesting that you accept that the terminology which seems to be accepted by most schools of mridangam playing, and which has had no bad effect whatsoever on the success of the players or other artists that share the same terminology, is used by those people and there is nothing wrong with that.

To criticise them as being illogical, etc etc etc etc is not, err... logical.

My mother tongue has nothing to do with this. Western music has nothing to do with this. I have nothing to do with this. I am just one of those simple people who had to understand that hours may be hours and minutes may be minutes, but some schools of timekeeping call hours minutes.

Really, I have to confess that I have no patience with this: It is a good thing that I'm not a music student any longer.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, Nick H,

Yes, what you wrote is absolutely true, dear.

Your mother-tongue has nothing to do with this. Yes, if I want to properly convey my feelings in your mother-tongue, I must develop my knowledge only.

Western music has nothing to do with this. Yes, by this our musicians must learn how properly we have to standardize our system for the benefit of the poor aspirants and their parents setting aside all other things.

You have nothing to do with this. Yes, I only have to do the needful to properly convey my opinion to people like you. That’s all.

I sincerely feel that we both are sailing in the same boat of impatience, you with some schools of timekeeping calling hours minutes or vice-versa and myself openly bringing out the illogicality of the people.

However, if they prove themselves logical or prove me illogical I shall certainly bow down to them and correct myself. amsharma

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by Nick H »

Sir, you are my senior, in every way, and most especially, you have researched the concepts of methods of laya more than most living people will ever do. Thus, you may well be right and justified.

All I can do is point out how confusing it has been for me, and how confusing I know that it must be for newcomers, if you do not at least mention and acknowledge the differences in terminology and acknowledge their use. It is your intention, I know, to make things clear, but this insistence on a word causes far more lack of clarity. I speak from experience.

As I have said, I am a happy audience member, and no longer make any pretence to study or to perform, but I know for sure that if I go to any mridangam player I know, and say that I need a 37-akshara korvais, they will immediately understand my meaning. If I ask for a 37-mathra korvais, after a moment's doubt, they may realise what I mean. That's just how it is.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Our brain, rhythm and kAlapramANam - scientific basis

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, Nick H,

I fully agree with you, dear. Some schools have even their own traditional terminology which may differ from others. If we want to interact with such people, no doubt, it is better to follow their version. amsharma

Post Reply