Sangathis in Krithis.

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Given the fact that sangatis are constructed/sung in a way distort the meaning + the fact that there are so many variations of sangatis for same krithi among practioneers, it is quite safe to guess that many people freely add sangatis.

However, Thyagaraja supposedly did include sangatis in his krithis - and is recognized as a trailblazer in that regard. I don't know the precise historical evidence pointing to that . I guess this would be based on old manuscripts "close to his time" (e.g. Walajapet).

But at this point, i don't know how we can tell which were original and which weren't. People of course do claim many things about authenticity and originality, but their claims conflict.

It would not surprise me that most we hear today are not original but later additions - new ones or modifications. I don't know how CM was 250 years ago, but it is definitely quite interpretive and improvisatory and this I suspect may result in the general morphing over time.

I would suspect that if a modern composer were to hear his/her krithi additionally (but musically) interpreted by a musician with add new sangatis but while not changing mood and meaning, he/she may feel happy (assuming the presentation was good). So in that sense I would think in CM personal interpretation is ok and this perhaps leads to many people not feeling shy to add/change sangatis (?). But I am no composer - so this is just again a guess. Arasi, Drs and SangeetRasik may corroborate or disagree.

The trouble of course is that with this freedom, it ends up being a reinterpretation more often than one may think :( :).

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 11 Aug 2007, 00:16, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Arun,
Reinterpretation to the point of distortion of sAhityA and of messing up original sangatis is a problem. However, I am all for reinterpretation (adding sangatis--within limits--by a capable performer would in my opinion make a song better). This can be achieved when the singer gets to have a grasp of the feeling which is found in the song. After all, we are assuming that with a vAggEyakArA (as oppsosed to a sAhitya kartA), a song and the tune come as one entity, welded together as it were. Other composers will agree with me on it. That is why, however superior the musician who sets the tunes to other sAhitya kartA's songs might be, it isn't that easy for him to 'feel' into the composition. My uncle happened to be a composer too, besides being a vocalist. That was why, as SSI remarked: V V Sadagopan's tuning of Ambujam Krishna's songs (the very first ones in Geetha Mala volume 1) was a difficult act to follow.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

thanks arasi.

Nandy
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Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

Post by Nandy »

Well it's nice that everyone is pouring their feelings "for sangathis introduced into Carnatic krithis".

According to what I read, krithis do not actually come under "Manodharma sangeetham" but under "Kalpita sangeetham". And all our great musicians have a lot of scope to show their talent under manodharma sangeetham like ragam, tanam pallavi, kalpana swarams, ragam singing before a krithi, neraval singing.

Musicians can bring out a lot of their variations in the neraval singing.

Probably 1 or 2 variations by each musician apart from the original version which would "exclusively bring out the meaning of those wonderful words of the Pallavi of any krithi" can be acceptable, that too not for all the krithis.

This is in my opinion to preserve the original works and pay our truest tributes to our great saintly composers. I feel there should be a balance of both Kalpita and Manodharma sangeetham.

V_ANNASAMY
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 13:07

Post by V_ANNASAMY »

Friends,

Even if we assume, Saint tyAgarAja has not created sangitis, one can analyze the various kritis he has composed in particular raagas like DarbAr, HarikAmbOji, KaraharapriyA, PantuvarAli, kEdAram, varAli, kalyANi, ShankarAbharaNam etc., wherein he has applied superb varieties to each kriti, almost with no resemblance of each other. It is not that he just composed and some one else tuned his kritis.

Such has been his imagination and presentation of raags (in the outline itself). If we collectively take down each outline of particular raag kritis (say darbAr), the varieties would itself form various sangitis. He had been improvising bit by bit massively and bringing out the raaga lakshanA beyond comprehension.

Also my point is that He was very much understanding what He was composing (yAga yOga tyAga.. phalmOsangE), that too most of His kritis are in mother tounge. And if one understands about the lyrics coupled with raaga & thala g~nAna, there definitely comes the improvisation which would certainly invite any body to develop further.

Whether you call it God's gift, spantaneousness was a very well known factor to the Saint. When offered wordly wealth, there came the nidhi chAla sukhamA.. when He re - found the deities he was worshipping, His joy was bound less and He composed kanugontini - fittingly in bilahari. These are just samples and known to us.

This also makes us comtemplate that a Person with such applications and brillance, who could exhibit any raags even with only one sangati (out line - can we sum up), His mind set up would have definitely allowed/made him to swim through further and further with emotive and knowing well the contents, is there any doubt that He would have not have tried improvements and beautified the segments (pallavi, anu pallavi..). Plus kaVeri theeram, well tuned tanpurA and born for a certain noble cause..

At times, we artists get lost in singing His kritis and unknowingly get acquainted to some new outlines. That be case to us, His degrees of exploration - one can just visualize.

My sincere praNAms to Saint TyAgarAja.

-va-
Last edited by V_ANNASAMY on 18 Aug 2007, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.

108talas
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Post by 108talas »

Our professional artists (members) can throw some light on this topic. Already it is good going indeed.

sindhu
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006, 15:07

Post by sindhu »

VA

Good way of expression and to the point. The performing stalwarts' opinions from NSG, SP, GV are awaited.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

From a composer's point of view, I have this to say. Yes, a song can have added sangatis. Of course, the neraval line gets its share, and even if the musician heaps it with sangatis, since we are conditioned to listening to neravals, it does not seem to matter much (yet, the purpose of neraval singing is to heighten the emotional impact!). The question is, has the artiste chosen the right line? When it comes to the Trinity and old composers, we mostly hear them sing the well-established neraval lines. What if they choose a line which is appealing to them musically and isn't a vital line in the song? Our forum's vidwan-vidUshi members are sensitive to sAhityam, for sure. However, even among stalwarts, there were (and are) those who do not mesh with the sAhityam. When it comes to neraval and one's own sangatis, however impressive the sangatis, unless the content of the line yields to it, it may not work well. That is, a musically superior sangati cannot wing it without the words coming alive with it. Padac chEdam aside, picking words of no emotional content or emphasizing those words in a kriti purely on the basis of the notes cluster which seem to appeal to the performer to elaborate on, falls flat. The modern day composers have that to be concerned about. Other than that, with a bhAvA minded musician who is sensitive to the composition, the song gains stature...
Last edited by arasi on 14 Aug 2007, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

arasi wrote:When it comes to neraval and one's own sangatis, however impressive the sangatis, unless the content of the line yields to it, it may not work well. That is, a musically superior sangati cannot wing it without the words coming alive with it.
A very important point, especially from my perspective. The ultimate objective of music is to convey emotional meanings, not dry intellectual ones. In CM, the overwhelming "emotion" has been the bhakti aspect though other emotions can be worked up leading into the bhakti aspect. As a "modern" composer (in the sense of the themes considered), one of my objectives is to accentuate non-"bhakti" themes as independent and equally (if not more, in the current age) valid facets of human experience. This is rather exciting and non-trivial to do, since over the centuries classical CM has evolved itself into an "organism" that is very well adapted to conveying "godly" themes. Careful consideration of details of ragas and their relation to the sahitya is of importance for handling "non-religious" themes.

That being said, almost every composer has her/his "quirks". For example, when dealing with subjects related to the western part of India (Gujarat/Maharashtra) etc, I only use ragas like Surati and Saurashtra which originate from those regions. My compositions such as "dhirambanim" (Saurashtra), "vallabham" (Surati), and "bhimarajena" (Saurashtra) are examples. In such cases, the subject had better be somewhat attuned to the mood/spirit of these ragas!

As a prime example of "superior sangati" that is not supported by the underlying sahitya, I would quote the "spurious" sangatis added to MD's composition "vatapi ganapatim".

SR

Nandy
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Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

Post by Nandy »

Dear rasikas,

As far as Sri Thyagaraja and sangathis are concerned, as far as I know, all of these great saints created great krithis spontaneously.

Sri Thyagaraja definitely would have sung variations(sangathis) in the particular lines of the krithi to convey the mood and the words he meant to God and again which came out spontaneously.

Those original sangathis probably are lost to most extent.

Nandy

srikant1987
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Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Post by srikant1987 »

Even if we assume, Saint tyAgarAja has not created sangitis, one can analyze the various kritis he has composed in particular raagas like DarbAr, HarikAmbOji, KaraharipriyA, PantuvarAli, kEdAram, varAli, kalyANi, ShankarAbharaNam etc., wherein he has applied superb varieties to each kriti, almost with no resemblance of each other.

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... elara1.htm

On just 16th, I went to one vocal concert. It started off with a Varnam (in a ragam I couldn't recognise), a Sanskrit krti on Ganapati set to Nattai, and a two other Sanskrit krtis — in Ananda Bhairavi, Poorvi Kalyani. A request was made, for an aTANA krti, and for a sAramati krti, both taken. Both in Sanskit. I had enjoyed only the aTANA krti until then (and that too not intensely). And then came two Tyagaraja krtis — mAkElarA vicAramu? and tattvameruga taramA?.

But mAkElarA touched my heart the moment the first sangati was rendered. The second sangati heightened the effect, the third sustained it. The fourth diminished the heightened effect. But there was a fifth, and a sixth, maybe a seventh — which finally seemed like just cluster of svarams fitting with the mUrcana, rendered at breakneck speed and zero emotion. Then I got a shrewd hint what the problem really was, what stopped me enjoying the concert.

Then on, I learned to shut my ears to the last few "sangatis". It wasn't much use: what followed tattvameruga taramA with an RTP in Suratti, tishrajAti catushra naDai tripuTa tALam. The violinist included portions from "shrI venkaTa girIshama" and "paarvai onRE pOdumE!" in his rAgam; the audience enjoyed the inclusions rather than frowned on them.

After the RTP was a madhyamAvati krti, also Tyagaraja's, then the mangalam.

srikant1987
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Post by srikant1987 »

The composers of krtis certainly know best about their own krtis, and their own sangatis will have been the most suited to what they meant to sing. But I am not against the artist performing their own sangatis out and out.

If it becomes a common practice for artists to give a brief talk about the meaning of the song they're going to sing, we can expect "manOdharma sangatis" that are between fair and as beautiful as the rest of krti itself.

Also, I wished the melody artists would take their time before they began any new improvisation.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Srikant,
On your point about hurrying, I agree. While certain rAgAs are suited for singing at a fast pace, breakneck speed is not pleasing. It seems to me, the fast ones need more care in handling. 'Faster' might take away the beauty of the rAgA.
Though giving the meaning of each song in a recital may not be practical, it is nice to know you care about sAhityA!

108talas
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Post by 108talas »

Presentation of sangitis would also depend on the pAtAntara. Only some sangitis would be common.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Yes, 108talas. pATAntarA plays an important role too. Imaginative sangatis based on solid pATAntarA make the grade.

Which brings to mind the number of sangatis sung in vAtApi gaNapathim bhajE that Sangeet Rasik mentions in his post as spurious. Depends on how well they are constructed (pATAntaram, again!). I have delighted in hearing any number of sangatis in the opening line by MMI and others. It is the right place for them in the kriti too since the pallavi has just one line. The sangatis do not meddle with the bhAvA of the song. The repetition of the line is like an invocation. Executed the right way, it is like adding colorful flowers to a garland. Not only that. It is enjoyable to sing and to hear those sangatis at the start of the song as if to prepare ourselves to the majesty of the kriti before it unfolds...
Last edited by arasi on 18 Aug 2007, 19:49, edited 1 time in total.

Nandy
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Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

Post by Nandy »

In classical music there is always improvisation. And it is always a delight to hear well constructed sangathis not interfering with the bhava of the line. We then have to include the compositions into Manodharma sangeetham to some extent. We cannot entirely call it Kalpitha sangeetham as mentioned by great people.

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