Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Mar 2008, 07:50

Sarva laghu would refer to accompaniment lessons, whereas your excellent illustration just given refers to classroom practice.

I would add one hint and one further idea:

Hint: Set the basic beat speed to be slow. That way you can reach third speed without straining tongue and brain cells too much.

idea: when you are comfortable with tisra ta ki ta to each beat, maintain the tisra, but say takadimi.

it will come like ||takadi mitaka dimita kadimi|. Keep the stress on 'ta'. Easier to do to a metronome than when putting tala with hands, as the brain wants the stress on the clap.

Mixed nadai, tisra first half, chatusra second half:

|| takadi mitaka dimita kadimi | takadimi takadimi takadimi takadimi ||

But we do move away from the original question here...

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 16 Mar 2008, 09:52

Thank you very much VK & thenpannan

I asked for it to help my son in keeping talam while playing mrudangam

But I have got hooked to it

Thanks again

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 16 Mar 2008, 14:45

VK

I find the challenge is in reciting 'ThaKiTaThaKiTa' in one adi talam cycle . This is the tisram equivalent of your step 2. Packing 3 or 4 or 5 sollus per beat is comparitively easier than reciting 6 or 10 sollus in adi talam cycle (instead of standard 8 of chatusra andai)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Mar 2008, 14:57

rajumds:

Just to make sure my representation is clear, ThaKiTaThaKiTa' is to be fit in one beat of Adi ( since there are no spaces between the sollus )

But what you seem to be attempting is something different. If I understood right, you want to do ' tha ki ta tha ki ta' in the same time it takes to do ' tha ka dhi mi tha ka ju nu' in first speed. You are attempting this over one Adi thala cycle itself and not in one beat. I can see why that is quite challenging. Did I get what you are attempting correctly?

Only consolation is, in practise, in first speed there is really no Nadai difference. Each Sollu ( sub-beat ) takes one full beat. When number of sub-beats per beat is 1, then there is no Nadai to speak of. I am not sure if what you are attempting is something people normally do.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 16 Mar 2008, 15:20

Dear brother-member, nickH, This is the way of rendering Chaturashra-jati in Trisra-gati and, in the same way, I have rendered the Jatis of all Alankaras in Chaturashra-gati and Trisra-gatis consecutively in the Laya-exercise No.6 and furnished the video-clippings in Youtube.com/msakella. Interested aspirants can follow it and practice. amsharma.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 16 Mar 2008, 16:05

Yes ..

In chatusra nadai first speed you have 1 sub beat (sollus) for 1 beat resulting in 8 sub beats (sollus) for 1 cycle of adi talam.

Now for tisram first speed you need 3/4 subeats(sollus) for 1 beat resulting in 6 subbeats(sollus) for 1 cycle of adi talam.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Mar 2008, 18:33

three or five beats in the time of eight is probably most jazz musicians could do.

Otherwise we can do it by calculating the length of the pauses, and I'm sure a mridangist would not find it hard to produce, on stage, instantly.

Adi, tisra nadai:

|| Tha , , , Ki , , , Ta , , , | Tha , , , Ki , , , Ta , , ,

|| Tha ; ; ; , Ki ; ; ; , Ta ; ; ; , || or
|| Tha ; ; ; , Ki ; , | ; ; Ta ; ; ; , ||

One of the "tricks" my teacher would do in classroom demonstration is play different 4 with one hand and five with the other.

Another, which I saw him do once (and another musician present at the time said it was not possible) was to take my simple chatusra/tisra examlpe:

|| takadi mitaka dimita kadimi | takadimi takadimi takadimi takadimi ||

and alternate chatusra, tisra, chatusra, tisra,chatusra, tisra, chatusra. The nadais no longer change on the beats: it requires absolute accuracy of both talam-putting and saying.

Mridangists, and some other musicians, do this stuff. It is a level and depth of laya that leaves the likes of me, who can barely keep talam from one end of a song to another, open-mouthed.

And I have the additional problem that I was never very quick with numbers

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Mar 2008, 23:26

rajumds: You are going somewhere I have never been..

Sub-beats per beat is what is needed for Nadai. You change the sub-beats per beat to change nadai or speed. You are now talking about sub-beats over a tala cycle. Also, terminology wise, in first speed there is no difference between Chathusram, Tisram, Khandam etc. I think what you are attempting has to be called something else.

Just a note about the metronome tool, The BPM number can be confusing. That specifies the number of main beats per minute. The Beats number specifies the number of sub-beats per main beat ( nadai or speed ).

Note 2: The tool does not keep up to the BPM number as you increase the number of beats ( i.e sub-beats ). Upto 5, it is OK, 7 is reasonably OK but at 9 there is a very noticable slow down.

puru00047 · Post by **puru00047** » 17 Mar 2008, 18:01

mates i found beatcraft on the net.
it is fascinating. as my bro is a mridangam player he knew all the settings of the software and all the time signatures. it was quite wonderful how he handled all the complex western percussion notations to make them work for more complex talas like misra chapu and sankeerna chapu..

beatcraft also has a tabla preset..but it is a bit boring.

but still i would prefer a live player like my bro rather than a computer dictating terms while i am on guitar.....

prasanna fan
puru

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 18 Mar 2008, 00:03

I was pleased to see renewed activity on this thread. But I sense that the discussion is moving away from the original question, as Nick has pointed out. May I suggest that we make a course-correction?

So here is my question (questions, actually) again in a more conversational style:

Question 1:
Assume that you are a flutist and are playing a Kriti. There is no one keeping the taala for you and there is no one playing the Mridangam - you are all alone, so you can't glance around. The taala is rather complex, and you need to keep the taala. How do you do it? A vocalist uses his hand and fingers for counting the beats, but you are playing the flute - your hands are busy and you need to use your feet. What is it that you do with your feet corresponding to the claps, waves of the hand and finger counts that the vocalist has the luxury of using? Now I know from experience that it is difficult to use the fingers on your feet to count, so there must be some other way to do that. What is that other way?

Question 2:
In the midst of the song, you notice that you have suddenly lost track of the Taala (woe!). You are still tapping your feet and the laya is fine, but you dont know where in the Taala you are and you need to get back on track. How do you do that? How do you know where in the taala you are if you stop counting and want to get back on track?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2008, 02:37

Oh dear, that's a bit like me asking the raga people if they wouldn't mind not using sa ri ga ma --- because just as that is the language of melody, so is takadimi the language of rhythm , but then so is laghu and drutham and so on...

One violinist I've watched quite a lot uses one foot for a clap, and the other for a wave.

I've seen musicians who, when they want to emphasise the tala to their fellows, or to someone in the audience keeping tala for them (which is, of course, an answer in itself), use the knees in this fashion, but only for a cycle or so, until the signal is picked up and acted upon.

It is quite easy to count to three or four without thinking about it, and in simpler pieces, one just feels it in the shape of the music. That takes care of the finger counts. Extrapolating from my own elementary accomplishment, how many more must an accomplished carnatic instrumentalist, whose schooling has been in numbers as much as melody, be able to count to?

I'm not at all sure that there are many stage performers who do get lost in the talam, at least during singing compositions, but, if they did, does it really matter? I'm going to stick my neck out and say no!!! They know what they are playing, and only have to continue to the end of that line, at worst, to pick up the count of the tala again. As long as they keep the tempo even, who would notice?

But, as they have learnt the tala from the first attempt and then practice of the song, probably it is unlikely.

Even in performing swaras, where some artists seem more reliant than others on some subtle indication from a colleague, who knows from a glance when to give it, if track of the tala is lost, as long as the calculation is not forgotten it can be completed! Of course, if the starting point is lost, that is a different matter.

I conjecture, and I hope you don't feel that I waste your time, but what I'm working myself towards is the thought that, outside of the practice room, the putting of talam is complimentary to, rather than in any way necessary to, the performing artist.

I look forward to hearing how right or wrong I am!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 18 Mar 2008, 18:49

Oh dear, that's a bit like me asking the raga people if they wouldn't mind not using sa ri ga ma --- because just as that is the language of melody, so is takadimi the language of rhythm , but then so is laghu and drutham and so on...

I removed that note from my post. Thanks for the feedack.

I'm not at all sure that there are many stage performers who do get lost in the talam, at least during singing compositions, but, if they did, does it really matter? I'm going to stick my neck out and say no!!! They know what they are playing, and only have to continue to the end of that line, at worst, to pick up the count of the tala again. As long as they keep the tempo even, who would notice?

It does matter. They do know what they are playing, as far as the song is concerned, but what about the Muktaaya at the end of the Pallavi or Anupallavi when you progress from there to the next part of the Kriti? You need to start the Anupallavi and Charanam at the right beat, so you do need to know where you are in the Taala.

Even in performing swaras, where some artists seem more reliant than others on some subtle indication from a colleague, who knows from a glance when to give it, if track of the tala is lost, as long as the calculation is not forgotten it can be completed! Of course, if the starting point is lost, that is a different matter.

So how do you ensure you don't forget the calculation? Isn't that why the musician has to keep the Taala? So if you are not keeping it, or you don't know where you are, doesn't it mean that the calculation has gone awry?

I conjecture, and I hope you don't feel that I waste your time, but what I'm working myself towards is the thought that, outside of the practice room, the putting of talam is complimentary to, rather than in any way necessary to, the performing artist.

I believe you are speaking from a Mridangist's perspective, but I feel that for other instrumentalists and vocalists, the putting of the talam is necessary, rather than complimentary. I have observed that Mridangists don't so much as even glance at those who are putting the talam (by which I imply that the inherent characteristic of Mridangam-playing automatically guides the Mridangist through the taala), but it is not so for others. The main artist may not put the taala , but I think they do need some kind of a compass to guide them (for example, he or she may have learned to listen to the Mridangam and use its beats as a guide).

Of course, I may be wrong, and I look forward to hearing any refutations.

puru00047 · Post by **puru00047** » 18 Mar 2008, 21:18

for generations talas have been a mental practice for instrumentalists.
and CM is a traditional art. no matter what technical enhancements one may think of practicing instruments with a mental tala is recomended.
i am a guitar player and o have a very poor voice and shruti maintenece.
my method is to practise the song's sahitya with a mental tala by merely singing first. then i work the tala.. and then i play the guitar with my sister singing...my bro's havin exams and i cant disturb him to play mridangam...so i have made it a mental practice

try try till u succeed

prasanna fan
puru

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:44

girish_a wrote:
... ... ... so is takadimi the language of rhythm , but then so is laghu and drutham and so on...
I removed that note from my post. Thanks for the feedack.

Not at all! We seem to be doing very well so far without recourse to solukattu. Much as I'm enjoying the conversation so far, I'm sure you too wish that more experienced musicians would join in to tell us how it really is

I'm not at all sure that there are many stage performers who do get lost in the talam ... ... . As long as they keep the tempo even, who would notice?
It does matter. They do know what they are playing, as far as the song is concerned, but what about the Muktaaya at the end of the Pallavi or Anupallavi when you progress from there to the next part of the Kriti? You need to start the Anupallavi and Charanam at the right beat, so you do need to know where you are in the Taala.

That muktaaya, or thiermanum is, in itself, a great sign pointing to the beginning of the line. In my frequent audience experience of being lost in the talam in a piece of music I do not know, that three line pattern tells me surely I can restart my talam counting; one.... two.... NOW! So long, of course as I have managed to capture the edipu. The artist on the stage won't have been in my ignorant situation anyhow.

Even in performing swaras, ... ... ... as long as the calculation is not forgotten it can be completed!
So how do you ensure you don't forget the calculation? Isn't that why the musician has to keep the Taala? So if you are not keeping it, or you don't know where you are, doesn't it mean that the calculation has gone awry?

The 'calculation' is a composition in itself. I'm not saying that they never get composed on the spot, but mostly they will be picked from the repertoire. My guess is that artists that do not have a really good grip on laya and talam do not even attempt nadai changes --- or RTP. Yes, if confusion comes in the calculation then all is lost.

I believe you are speaking from a Mridangist's perspective, but I feel that for other instrumentalists and vocalists, the putting of the talam is necessary, rather than complimentary. I have observed that Mridangists don't so much as even glance at those who are putting the talam (by which I imply that the inherent characteristic of Mridangam-playing automatically guides the Mridangist through the taala), but it is not so for others. The main artist may not put the taala , but I think they do need some kind of a compass to guide them (for example, he or she may have learned to listen to the Mridangam and use its beats as a guide).

I really wish I could speak from the mridangist's perpective! The fact that I have attended some classes does not mean that I have developed that wonderful laya sense that is vital for every mridangist, and not so uncommon to other pro artists. It is true that I gained what insight I have from a mridangist, but, truly, my perspective is that of a simple audience member who has always had a wish to understand more of what happens on stage, which is why I went to class in the first place, rather than having any ambition to perform. The process of making music fascinates me, and I.m guessing that it does you too, as questions like this tend to be taken for granted by most, and go unasked and unanswered.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Mar 2008, 22:59

This conversation has been great. I hope instrumental artists who can relate to Girish's question can pitch in with actual concert experience. No offense to anyone, we seem to be talking around the basic question that Girish is getting at. Do musicians ( vocalists and instrumentalists but instrumentalists especially ) really need someone else to keep the thala or is it all mental or is it a combination. We can all agree that the composition itself provides enough built-in mile markers for the musician to rely on without needing any external manifestations of the cycle position. But I think Girish is asking about other 'free form' phases of the concert. It looks to me that we do not have to conclude 'it is all mental' for instrumentalists since they have some ways of counting. May be they compartmentalize it using other counting methods. Those are the things will be interesting to know.

Also, it will be good if we talk about the musicians with normal and adequate skills in laya which represents the 95% of professionals and not the 5% extrememely gifted ones.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 18 Mar 2008, 23:39

But I think Girish is asking about other 'free form' phases of the concert.

Exactly. You worded it very well.

I posted a message in the general discussions section a couple of weeks ago inviting experienced persons to this thread, but it doesn't appear to have caught the attention of many. And that post has now got lost under the masses. If I went back and posted another invitation to here, well, that would probably be spam.

We could lie low for some time but if nothing useful is forthcoming, put out another advertisement with a catchy headline, and hope it draws the forum's compassionate attention to the trials of the taala-impaired.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 18 Mar 2008, 23:40

Puru's point

for generations talas have been a mental practice for instrumentalists.

says a lot, but I'd still like to hear from others.

There are many signals that pass, both ways, between instrumentalist and mridangist, and it would be an unfriendly and awkward mridangist (and one not too keen on getting other engagements) who would allow an artist to be openly embarrassed by a slip. His job is to accompany, not to stand as some sort of measure against which the artist's own laya will stand or fail; he will accommodate changes in tempo, he will accommodate mistakes in the tala

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 19 Mar 2008, 11:06

Most instrumentalists manage to keep time using their feet...you can even see artistes like TMK and Vijay Siva using their feet to keep the taalam at times. With adequate practise it is quite comfortable to use your feet to keep time...it is even possible to do it mentally if your rhythm sense is sharp enough...

It is not unheard of for artistes to lose track of taala when they are in the middle of swara kalpana (in a kriti rendition of course this would not happen)...I have seen this happen to a couple of vocalists who are otherwise known for being strong in laya...this is just one of the many pitfalls that a complex art confronts you with! However this happens very rarely with senior artistes..

Nick's observation is right on the ball...a mrudanist needs to gauge the performer's abilities in laya and play accordingly. A good mrudangist will try and cover up the few slip ups that may occur despite his best efforts...However, over time if he feels certain artists are not upto the mark in laya, he can always avoid accompanying such artistes....or, more positively, he can help the artistes to improve their skill in laya...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Mar 2008, 14:27

Accompanied a small girl (actually she was probably as old as the mridangist) once for a piece at a function. Afterwards she praised us (mridangam and morsing) saying, I kept on changing speed; you guys just stayed with me!

We both said, errr. yes, but that's our job!

Only when the 'artist' falters and stutters and looses rhythm altogether is it less embarrassing all round for the rhythm guys to just stop and wait until they get a grip.

Actually, there is a lot to be learnt from being on stage with small people who may be there because of mum and dad rather than their own ability or wishes!

I recall talking to my teacher about how is able to give tala assistance to an artist. Obvious is simply to give the tala with the left hand, but also marking the claps with an emphasised left-hand stroke on the mridangam.

I think there are artists who don't much consider the tala when performing swaras. Perhaps they regard it as raga with rhythm imposed. These people one will notice looking to the mridangist for guidance when they are approaching the end of each section, especially if they are going to finish with a korvais, and they must know where to begin it.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 19 Mar 2008, 15:11

It is not that easy and it is not that tough. but it is always good to practice from day one. but it is going to be tough if you start it lately.

Let me explain for the violinists and flautist for instance.

it is a matter of how your program your brain to do that. when you are practicing.As you practice hours and hours you can succeed it greatly .

Let us start with simple ADI,

When you are playing sarali varisai. remember to tap your leg as you woudl do with your hand when you sing So remember to shake your leg at Sa,Pa and Ni.

When you do it for sometime your mind understands the time interval.

so as you progress to 2nd varisasi SRSRSRGM SRGMPDNS

you can see that you can malke to shake your foot at S r s r S r G m. Caps indicates where you shoudl shake.

You can do this for all the varisai. not a big task.

try this for the second speed also . keeping your taping speed the same.
So what happens here is that you woudl tap it SrsrsrgmSrgmPdns

This is the way you can learn adi talam. Itis like mnemonics. youshoudl first remember which are the notes that you shoudl tap . then gradually your legs would do it without your consioius .

Like wise you can do this for the otherthalas when playing alankarams.

but early start is good. instead of practicing it when you areinto kirthamnams or ragams already.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Mar 2008, 19:44

Neraval, come to think of it, must require very good command of talam, and loosing it anywhere must be disastrous.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 20 Mar 2008, 02:59

Dear b/s-members, In general, only after attaining some age people think of doing such things but cannot think such things at their tender age as they do not have much ideas. There lies the importance of an efficient, experienced, dedicated and sincere teacher to properly guide us in right direction in which way Late Shri Parur Sundaram Iyer shaped his son, Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan as an inimitable Violinist. But, it is that difficult like a lady always expecting a very accommodative husband to marry with and ending with a failure. More over, as our brother-member ganesh_mourthy wrote training the limbs of your body properly, meticulously and regularly from the tender age matters much in getting such required results. amsharma.

anandasangeetham · Post by **anandasangeetham** » 20 Mar 2008, 11:54

If I may add....

I have heard many Gurus insist on learning vocal music (in case of instrumentalists) compulsorily. This I understand is to get a clarity on the sahitya (so that it is easily portrayed on the instrument) and also to have a good grasp of the tala. Once this is mastered transferring it in to the instrument is not big deal ( I am a nobody but this is my opinion) subject to constant practice to master the intrument....That is why many instrumentalists are also good singers..(you can hear them sing for RT Pallavis) Secondly as far as the percussionists are concerned I have seen many practice the solkattus by mouthing the jathis and keeping the tala by hand. Once they have mastered it they practice it on the instrument....This way (after constant practice ) it forms part of their nature....There was another discussion somewhere here (not in this thread) on the correct learning age for music. The same logic applies here too...without going in to the nuances or the technicalities the young are taught just to copy the Guru and practice. Once they attain mastery then they go about dissecting technically. This way they do not let go of the mastery attained but they also research. If on the other hand if it researched before mastery ..IMHO both will be lost...

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 26 Apr 2008, 21:18

Well, this thread seems to have fallen silent. I'm posting this to revive the discussion, and with the hope that it may yet draw the attention of someone who can teach us a practical solution to the problem being discussed herein.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Apr 2008, 02:16

It seems to me that we have the answer.

Whether toes, nose or even ears are twitched to aid in counting, what really counts is internal.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 30 Apr 2008, 18:41

True. Layam essentially is best brought out when internalised.
Sathej

krishnaprasad · Post by **krishnaprasad** » 02 Mar 2009, 12:34

i think its matter of time with gradual increase in competence at the laya concept.
instrumentalists slowly get in tune with the tala.
though some of them have a strong born laya sense,i believe .N.Ramani for instance is known for his on the spot complicated korvais dazzling the accompanists.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 02 Mar 2009, 20:25

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Mar 2009, 23:23

Now the interesting question is, can someone who does not have it internally train oneself to have great laya skills?

Let us not consider musicians but just interested rasikas.

As you may have observed, it is easy to keep beat to the common film and pop songs. That is laya skill too but the laya of the song matches very
closely with the beats. So the song automatically guides you to be in the beat and also does not distract you from the beats.

With CM, that is not the case. The built-in layam of the song and the beats do not necessarily align on every beat. They do enough number of times alright
but those who are not used to it will get side tracked when they start following the stresses of the song. That will take them away from the beat. You can see that
more in the thani during sections of high syncopation.

To a large extent, that instinct to follow the stresses of the song is very natural. So laya training is to get over that natural inclination and keep to a steady metronomic
beat. I feel one can train oneself to do that and I would like to hear others' experiences and opinions on this.

This difficulty is similar in principle to the natural difficulty most of us have to perform this simple exercise:

Tap your head with one hand and rub your tummy with the other.

With some conscious effort you can fight that natural inclination for both hands to be doing the same movement.

Laya training, in principle is similar to that. ( I am sure the mridangists have to get over that natural left hand - right hand synchrony and make them move independently. )

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 03 Mar 2009, 09:10

One of the things that has intrigued me is that most Mridangists don't have a problem with laya. So if I were to learn to play the Mridangam, will my laya problems go away?

Another helpful tip which I picked up at work, in a training on presentation skills, is that if you watch yourself speak, you get a better perspective of your current abilities as a speaker. They had arranged for participants in that session to be recorded on video, and later played the recording back to the participants. I could easily figure out what I was doing wrong.

I recently did the same thing at home. I had someone record my flute-playing, and when I watched the recording later, I could recognize the places where I faltered with the Taala. That gave me a better perspective on how and where I could go wrong.

Of late, one of the things that I have been trying to do is to mentally dissociate my taala-keeping from the corresponding composition. It is as if your body is acting independently of your mind. It involves consciously working on your motor skills while letting the song flow uninterrupted in your head. My method is to start off on a long swara phrase with a simple raga like Hamsadhwani and an anchor phrase like "Vaatapi Ganapatim". I don't bother much about ending the swara at the right beat - that is for later. I just concentrate on keeping the beats evenly spaced. But the problem with this approach is that you are alone and there is no one to tell you if you kept the beat correctly. I can't go for video recording every time. It is a bit of a hassle.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Mar 2009, 11:32

girish, that disassociation is a good idea and it is along the lines I am thinking of. ( rubbing the tummy while patting oneself on the head requires a level of disassociation ).
I will also try your idea. I am not sure if the following will help. A visual metronome like http://38i.biz/metronome/ or the one Arun developed can help in periodically checking if you are on beat.

Out of my frustration with keeping to the beats, I devised a method for myself which I call Eduppu Varisai. This is similar to the various other varisais but its emphasis is that
the 'eduppu's are in between beats and the resting places are also in between beats while smearing over the prior beat. ( like how they do it in varnams ). That kind of stuff is what trips me up, so I decided to focus on such eduppu and slightly syncopated patterns. No progress to report yet

AMS probably has thought through all this and have incorporated that in his teaching methods. I will have to check.

svkashyap · Post by **svkashyap** » 03 Mar 2009, 12:45

I have been using electronic Tala aid (Radel's) since six months. I use it for sarale, janti varsais, alankarams and varnams. However, I don't like the cacophonous sound it produces.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Mar 2009, 14:02

VK...

It is easy to follow a beat, it is not so easy to be 'proactive' in the modern jargon. Still, if you attend some sort of concert where the audience are invited to clap with the music, you will not hear one crisp, accurate combined clap, many people are way off!

It has been said recently that all babies have an inherant sense of rhythm. I can certainly believe this, in fact I'd harldy thini it worth a research project to prove! I have often said that we have rhythm inherant in our bodies. Whatever our age, our heart beats regularly, and if it does not then it can be life-threatening. If we were not able to walk with near-perfect rhythm, then a street full of people would be the stuff of comedy films.

It seems, though, that our layam retreats from consciousness as we get older, and that it takes a great effort to retrain. It requires not only doing different things with each hand, but feels like doing different things with different parts of the brain!

Girish,

If you were to start learning mridangam (if your experience were to be like mine) the problem would not disappear, but you would be tackling it head on! Even at the first lesson, to play Tha , , , Dhi , , , Thom , , , Nam , , , with accurate timing, alone, is harder than one thinks, and my teacher said, yes, it so for everyone, even the youngsters.

But this problem is the same for all music students. An immature vocalist may even alter the speed of the song according to their feeling for the song (apparently some mature ones do this too!) rather than mainting tala strictly. Of course, Western music allows of change of tempo, this may be a cross cultural 'infection'. Vocalists and instrumentalists also have to keep to tala whilst delivering syncopated music, and understand and keep tala through the tani too.

Of late, one of the things that I have been trying to do is to mentally dissociate my taala-keeping from the corresponding composition.

I think the first thing to do is to concentrate on the tala and not listen to the music. This is rather boring for a music lover, but it is a necessary exercise! Let the music be there just to keep a check on one's tala, not for enjoyment. Then perhaps (I say perhaps because I haven't got there) one can attain a state where the body acts as metronome. I have watched my teacher composing, eg, korvais; his hand keeps dependable tala, so if his composition does not work he can see it. Us lesser mortals tend to put the tala beat where we want it to be, or think it should be.

Tangentially, I have often wondered why non-musician rasikas bother with this talam business. There a those syncopated places where there may be some intellectual satisfaction in knowing the beat, but I don't believe that it adds much to the enjoyment of the music. The musical sense feels syncopation anyway, and there is our pleasure. To be honest, if I did not have still some slight semblance of attachment to being a mridangam student, I would not bother --- I find it just a distraction from my emotional pleasure in the music.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:29

VK,
I looked at the visual metronome. It is pretty simple and could prove to be useful too, but I dislike the idea of keeping a laptop in front of me when practicing

My next thought was, why not write such an app for an iPhone, which is less unwieldy than a laptop! But since I don't possess an iPhone, I just let it pass.

I'm thinking of going in for a tala-meter, but I'll first have to ask around. It shouldn't become a prop you can't live without.

I'm curious to know more about your "Eduppu Varasais". It sounds like a very interesting concept. Please share them here. And if AMS has thought through this, what a blessing it will be for us!

Nick,
You make some interesting points about the challenges faced by novice drummers and singers alike. Your point about concentrating on the taala is practical; I've tried it a few times, but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music. Even when I have managed it, my taala has gone awry. But I need more practice, as I said.

I think I'm beginning to see why the Mridangists I've met are so good at taala. I initially thought it might be because of the nature of Mridangam playing, but I think it is more because of the fact that they live with taala day in and day out. It is the practice that has made them perfect

So I think learning the Mridangam is still a good idea. You will be tackling the taala-problem head on, as you said!

Having made that point about Mridangists, though, non-percussionists still have to tackle the other problem of keeping track of their whereabouts in the taala cycle, something for which I haven't found a good enough explanation in this thread.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Mar 2009, 22:36

but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music

Not deaf, but only 25% attention.*

Of some assistance in maintaining regular physical talam, at least in the 35 talas (the chapu talas pose a diiferent problem as their "beats" are not on every beat) ---

--- keep the motion of the hand flowing and regular, like the arm of a metronome, Up, down, up, down. Thus the tala becomes a sort of a dance. This exercise does not detract too much from enjoying at the same time.

--- mentally mutter takadimi to each beat. We have to not only keep our beat, but we have to recognise the pulse within it. The mental recitation helps both. This detracts a great deal from enjoyment; it is excercise time! At home, of course, it doesn't have to be mental.

--- watch the feet. They talk about toe-tapping rhythms, and I sometimes observe that when I think I have lost the beat, that my toes have not!

*part of the exercise is that some artists are not machine-like in their talam; we have to adjust to that. There are two things; learning to be a machine, and learning to be an adaptable machine! So the hardest job for a mridangist can be accompanying children singing simple songs, but without accurate talam. Tough, isn't it?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Mar 2009, 00:30

why not write such an app for an iPhone, which is less unwieldy than a laptop!

Actually, first I wanted to mention an iPhone app but then I thought I will stick to the laptop app. I use an iPhone app called 'iTick' which provides both visual and auditory clues with the option to turn off the audio. The convenience of having that anywhere you go is great. It can also be used to bring out the disassociation we talked about even outside the context of playing any instrument.

I will write about the 'eduppu varisai' later. It is not a big thing,you may laugh when you see it and whether it even deserves a special name like that

, it is personalized by me for my problems, we will have to see if it is useful for others.

Nick wrote: It requires not only doing different things with each hand, but feels like doing different things with different parts of the brain!

Great point. Definitely.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Mar 2009, 07:14

I have had a few incidents where even top instrumentalists (and their accompanying mrudangam artistes) request an audience member (who is a musician) to sit in the front row and put talam for them. Having been put in this situation a few times, I find it quite a tense exercise especially when the artistes start complicated mathematical swarams!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Mar 2009, 12:07

I'm curious to know more about your "Eduppu Varasais". It sounds like a very interesting concept. Please share them here

Since you asked, here is a sample. ( Use it at your own risk

)

-----------------
If regular varisai in Adi is the following

Code: Select all

S .  R .   G .   M .  | P .   D . | N .   S . ||
S .  N .   D .   P .  | M .   G . | R .   S . ||

This is transformed to

Eduppu Varisai in Adi

Code: Select all

S .   R .   G .  M . |  . P   D . |  N .   S . ||
. S   N .   D .  P . |  . M   G . |  R .   S . ||

You get the idea. One thing I find is, when I reorganize it like this, it starts to sound a litte bit
like a song due to that tiniest twist in layam.

If you keep repeating the above, it can get boring. The next level can be

Code: Select all

S .  . R   G .  . M | P . . D | N . . S || 
S .  . N   D .  . P | M . . G | R . . S ||

and you can deveop like this to suit your needs.

--------------------
Misra Chapu was/is a problem for me to get a good sense of its flow. I use the following to internalize MC a bit.

If regular varisai in Misra Chapu

Code: Select all

S R G | M P | D N ||
S N D | P M | G R ||

This is transformed to Eduppu Varisai in MC
( modeled after one of the common MC eduppus used by Vaggeyakaras.
Thanks Vijay for cluing me into this common pattern in a different thread a while back )

Code: Select all

- - S | R G | M P ||
D N S | N D | P M ||
G R S

Once this gets boring, move on to

Code: Select all

- - S | R . | G . ||
M P D | N . | S . ||
S N D | P M | G R ||
S . S |

Which leads to

Code: Select all

- - S | R . | G . ||
. . M | P D | N S ||
S N D | P M | . G ||
R S S |

and you can develop beyond this to suit your needs.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Mar 2009, 21:30

i was thinking of converting my prototype to an iphone/ipod-touch app a while ago - but the iphone sdk is available only on leopard and I am not there yet (holding out on forking out $169).

This iTick sounds like a good app.

Arun

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 04 Mar 2009, 22:35

nick H wrote:
but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music
Not deaf, but only 25% attention.

Yes, makes sense.

VK,
Thanks for sharing your Eduppu Varasai. This is certainly a very interesting concept. Never mind if is not exactly in great shape right now; it can always be improved, especially in a forum like this. Maybe you should think of starting a separate thread for Eduppu Varasai. It will definitely catch the attention of the AKSes and Vidyarthis of this forum. And they can help you to fine-tune your ideas.

I shall try out the excercises and give you feedback.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Mar 2009, 23:17

Girish, thanks for your involvement by trying my patterns out. Be aware of my warnings!! I will keep these in this thread for now, sort of a semi-lit place in the remote corner of the house only a few people know and visit!!

Here is another set, a designer-eduppu-varisai, using rshankar's nomenclature, designed to treat my own beginner level laya difficulties with desAdi thala.. So, it may not fit others, or may not satisfy other's fashion sense

I always had trouble with the desAdi thala eduppu. It does not help that my own person pet-peeve is that it is an unnecessarily unnatural way of fixing the eduppu that gives beginners a lot of trouble. It is artificial complexity and not inherent complexity. The laya patterns of the songs themselves are actually quite simple and straightforward. For practising desAdi tala, I use these patterns.

Consider the following simple varisai pattern. It is structured as a 'before the samam' eduppu. Practise the pattern first, it is very natural and orderly, nothing unusual.
In fact, for all practical purposes, you can even ignore the 'pre-samam' N since it will automatically come in when you repeat the pattern. But I put in there since it is
needed for the second step.

- N |
S . | R GM |
P . | . G |
M . | P DN |
S . | . R |
S . | N DP |
M . | . D |
P . | M GR |
S . | . N |

Let us add some artificial complexity with a sleight of hand.

Transpose the notation by 2 beats and make it into an Adi structure. The playing remains exactly the same. Magically, this becomes a desAdi thala pattern.
If you want it to sound a bit more authentic desAdi, play/sing with extra stresses to the 5th beat of each avarthanam ,namely the 'P .' and 'M .'.

- -| - N | S . | R GM | P .| . G | M . | P DN ||

S .| . R | S . | N DP | M .| . D | P . | M GR ||

S .| . N

In going with my practise of having a variation when boredom sets in, a small change to the above can be made. ( you yourself can make many such small changes without affecting the layam )

- -| - N | S R | . GM | P .| . G| M P | . DN ||

S .| . R | S N | . DP | M .| . D| P M | . GR ||

S .| . N

R2 · Post by R2 » 13 Apr 2009, 09:37

Dear friends,
The Talometer made by Radel is the best tool for instrumentalists. It can be set to any of the 35 taalas (7 taalas, 5 jaathis), at any speed, any pitch, and shows you the progression of the tala through a moving display of lamps accompanied by sound (different sounds for Beat and count). It also shows the last laghu in multiple laghu talas, like Dhruva taala, which even a person showing the tala on the hand cannot do!
You can sit and practise with it anywhere. You can mute the sounds for rupaka and chapu taalas, and also set Nadais.
This is actually and invaluable tool for all instrumentalists. I am a vainika myself and cannot do without it.

svkashyap · Post by **svkashyap** » 14 Apr 2009, 11:00

I agree with R2. Radel's talometer is invaluable as any tala in any nadai in speeds ranging from 30 to 200 bpm can be set.

On a lighter note, the following methods can be tried.

1. Use your breath.

For Adi and rupaka tala - Exhale for lagu, inhale for dhrutam or vice versa whichever is comfortable.

For chapu talams - Inhale for the uneven beat and exhale for equal beats (sigh of relief

)

The disadvantage of this method is that after sometime you will be gasping for breath.

The advantage is whether you keep the beat or not, rhythmic breathing is good for health

.

The next method is more suited for the adventurous

2. Use your eyes

This method is straight forward for chapu talams, just blink your eyes on the beats. (not an adventure)

For Adi tala, blink both eyes for laghu and alternate eyes for dhruta. ( PS: Please dont try in public

places )

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Apr 2009, 14:43

rhythmic breathing is good for health

One's breathing is always rhythmic, and, as stated by one swami (I forget who) it is your own lungs that the expert is setting the rhythm!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 14 Apr 2009, 20:52

Lol, svkashyap, that is a true manifestation of the phrase, "living and breathing music"!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Apr 2009, 07:42

Indeed, living and breathing music--add to it Monty Python's (John Cleese, to be precise) funny walk, and what do we have? A quirky comedy show sans music!

akshay.iyer · Post by **akshay.iyer** » 01 May 2009, 09:55

When you listen to a lot of music, the taalam sense comes automatically. The problem is during the swaras.
Apart from that I don't think there is any need to maintain any taalam when you are playing the pallavi. But again putting taalam with the feet is cumbersome but i guess the most widely used method for an instrumentalist. But one should never rely on it and should internally develop the sense of taala.

S.NAGESWARAN · Post by **S.NAGESWARAN** » 12 May 2009, 03:45

I have observed Sri Chandrasekaran, Violinist follows the vocalists rhythm by lightly tapping [without sound coming] the bow on to the string. Of course he plays the swaras by putting the thalam with his legs

S.NAGESWARAN.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 May 2009, 17:04

Did you notice, on Sunday, Smt N Rajam very explicitly, and with sound, communicating tha dhin dhin na to her tabla player?

I noticed once... I'm sure there may have been many such communications I failed to notice.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 May 2009, 20:37

From the very little I know about this, in HM, unlike CM, the thala and thala angas are very closely defined by the tabla sollus/sounds, called Bols. I am told that with some knowledge you can figure out the thala just by listening to the tabla. For example, two thalas with the same count but with different structures will have different Bols and so you can tell them apart by the sequence of sounds the tabla player makes. So what you saw/heard is the artist indicating to the tabla player essentially what Bol structure she wanted.

This probably limits what a tabla player can play while accompanying to a song whereas with CM there is no such correlation between thala/thala angas and what the percussionist needs to show.