Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
I believe that in addition to the many fine compositions existing in honor of gods/deities (Shiva, Vishnu, etc) and Puranic kshatriyas raised to divine status (Rama and Krishna), there is a vast field of possibility for karnatak sangeet to explore the greatness of Indian civilization from the post-Puranic "Golden Age" to the modern day. Additionally, serious compositions in honor of great vaishyas, shudras, and brahmans should be created and performed.
- personal information removed -
- personal information removed -
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 30 Jan 2007, 00:47, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
very well done SR!
acArya deVo bhava|
nice way of complimenting and remembering your Teacher!
It is said:
EkAkShara pradAtAraM yO guruM naiva manyatE|
shvAnayOni shataM gatvA caNDAlEShu abhijAyatE||
( He who does not respect the guru who taught the one letter (OmkAra) will be born hundred times as a dog among the caNDALaas)
JK taught you (?106 or what is the number of elements at the latest count ) and it is fitting for you to praise him through CM!
If you are planning to share more such compositions do post them in the vaggeyakara thread! Also post the notation so that our Rasikas can sing them making minor changes.
You have indeed made it lively by including nice tidbits. Also share some interesting episodes!
vyUDhAbhijnAnam would translate as wide (grand) memory...
Also discuss highlights relating to the raga if you have used any special prayogas.
guruprasaadaM siddhirastu|
acArya deVo bhava|
nice way of complimenting and remembering your Teacher!
It is said:
EkAkShara pradAtAraM yO guruM naiva manyatE|
shvAnayOni shataM gatvA caNDAlEShu abhijAyatE||
( He who does not respect the guru who taught the one letter (OmkAra) will be born hundred times as a dog among the caNDALaas)
JK taught you (?106 or what is the number of elements at the latest count ) and it is fitting for you to praise him through CM!
If you are planning to share more such compositions do post them in the vaggeyakara thread! Also post the notation so that our Rasikas can sing them making minor changes.
You have indeed made it lively by including nice tidbits. Also share some interesting episodes!
vyUDhAbhijnAnam would translate as wide (grand) memory...
Also discuss highlights relating to the raga if you have used any special prayogas.
guruprasaadaM siddhirastu|
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
I cannot imagine this being sung to the accompaniment of violin and mridangam in a concert, although it is good, so I am transferring it to technical section.
"Nata" would be a bit misleading title for this thread, since there is too much to digest apart from the raga, so that's another reason why I am moving it.
"Nata" would be a bit misleading title for this thread, since there is too much to digest apart from the raga, so that's another reason why I am moving it.
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Thanks for moving the thread. This should be a better location, and you have named it aptly. I will be posting other compositions on non-Puranic themes.
CMLover,
Thanks for the comments!
Just to clarify, this was not composed as a joke :cheesy:.
Best Wishes,
SR
That depends on who is singing, and who is on the mrdangam and violin! In fact the krti has potential to create melodic as well as rhythmic impact, when sung properly. It also contains prasalankara and svarakshara at the rarely-used shatshruti dhaivata.I cannot imagine this being sung to the accompaniment of violin and mridangam in a concert, although it is good, so I am transferring it to technical section.
CMLover,
Thanks for the comments!
Just to clarify, this was not composed as a joke :cheesy:.
Best Wishes,
SR
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
As Chembai stated
"guham jagadISakumAram" (2006)
nATarAge miSracAputAlena gIyate
pallavI
guham jagadISakumAram cintayAmi jnAnakoSam
anupallavI
prArthitadhanasampradatam analavaramAptacaritam rajatakESam
snigdhachatrapradAnam rasavyAptarasashAstropadesham
caraNam
gUDhadhAtusUtrakAram modasuputrajanakam
ArUDhashikhitulamAruTIm sthitamEdham duritaharaNam
bADhendraprasthanivAsam abhimandravacanam vaishadyam
vyUDhAbhijnAnam sadayam nAyakabrAhmaNAdisuhRdam
I can provide the meanings if there is any interest.
But first SR must post his notations!
I have made minimal changes to the sahityam so that it can be sung as an invocation at any concert!I cannot imagine this being sung to the accompaniment of violin and mridangam in a concert, although it is good, so I am transferring it to technical section.
"guham jagadISakumAram" (2006)
nATarAge miSracAputAlena gIyate
pallavI
guham jagadISakumAram cintayAmi jnAnakoSam
anupallavI
prArthitadhanasampradatam analavaramAptacaritam rajatakESam
snigdhachatrapradAnam rasavyAptarasashAstropadesham
caraNam
gUDhadhAtusUtrakAram modasuputrajanakam
ArUDhashikhitulamAruTIm sthitamEdham duritaharaNam
bADhendraprasthanivAsam abhimandravacanam vaishadyam
vyUDhAbhijnAnam sadayam nAyakabrAhmaNAdisuhRdam
I can provide the meanings if there is any interest.
But first SR must post his notations!
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Here is a composition in honor of the industrialist Dhirubhai Ambani (1932-2002), who established the great Indian business conglomerate, Reliance Industries. I will post the recording as soon as I convert it. [CMLover, notations will also be posted. I have to convert hand-written stuff into electronic form, and also have to transfer tape-recordings to windows media files].
dhIrAmbAnIm smararE (2003)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/aw3mfw
saurAshTra rAgE maThyatAlEna gIyatE
pallavi
dhIrAmbAnIm smararE mahOdyOgapatim ||
anupallavi
saurAshTradESamAnarakshakabhUpatim |
SaurAdivinutamaghamIram SubhakAryam
saumyam dhananjayam dhanadAnam sumatim ||
caraNam
rasAyanapaTTAdyutpAdanipuNam A- |
lasAdibhrashTAcAraharaNam vyApA- ||
rasAravittamam daridrAtsamRddhakaram |
asAdhyavikramam naranAyakam mahanI-
-yasAkshAtkubEram SrIbRhadbhAratim ||
Translation
Remember Dhira (Dhirubhai) Ambani, the great industrialist.
Him, the earth-lord who upholds the pride of Saurashtra (Gujarat),
Him, who is praised by daring/heroic ones, and who is most powerful,
Him, who makes good undertakings, who is excellent,
Him, who is the winner of wealth, (as well as) the donor of wealth, who is benevolent.
Him, who is adept in the manufacture of chemicals, textiles, etc.,
Him, who removes laziness and other corrupt characteristics,
Him, who is the best of those who know the essence of business,
Him, who makes prosperous men out of impoverished ones,
Him, of unsurpassed courage, leader of men,
Him, who is verily Kubera in illustrious bodily form,
Him, who is a mighty Indian.
dhIrAmbAnIm smararE (2003)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/aw3mfw
saurAshTra rAgE maThyatAlEna gIyatE
pallavi
dhIrAmbAnIm smararE mahOdyOgapatim ||
anupallavi
saurAshTradESamAnarakshakabhUpatim |
SaurAdivinutamaghamIram SubhakAryam
saumyam dhananjayam dhanadAnam sumatim ||
caraNam
rasAyanapaTTAdyutpAdanipuNam A- |
lasAdibhrashTAcAraharaNam vyApA- ||
rasAravittamam daridrAtsamRddhakaram |
asAdhyavikramam naranAyakam mahanI-
-yasAkshAtkubEram SrIbRhadbhAratim ||
Translation
Remember Dhira (Dhirubhai) Ambani, the great industrialist.
Him, the earth-lord who upholds the pride of Saurashtra (Gujarat),
Him, who is praised by daring/heroic ones, and who is most powerful,
Him, who makes good undertakings, who is excellent,
Him, who is the winner of wealth, (as well as) the donor of wealth, who is benevolent.
Him, who is adept in the manufacture of chemicals, textiles, etc.,
Him, who removes laziness and other corrupt characteristics,
Him, who is the best of those who know the essence of business,
Him, who makes prosperous men out of impoverished ones,
Him, of unsurpassed courage, leader of men,
Him, who is verily Kubera in illustrious bodily form,
Him, who is a mighty Indian.
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 20 Dec 2007, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Saura = heroic/courageous (person), interchangeable with SUraSR
SaurAdivinutamaghamIram
Could you explain the word formation. The construction is not clear!
Thanks!
Adi = etc, "and others"
vinuta = praised, respected
maghamIra = literally "ocean of strength";
magha = in Vedic Sanskrit it means power/strength/wealth/benevolence (e.g., maghavAn = Indra)
mIra = ocean/sea
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
The next composition is in honor of Lalu Prasad Yadav, the foremost leader of the modern Yadavas.
Lalu has had a colorful career:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laloo_Prasad_Yadav
Although perpetually controversial, Lalu is essentially a nationalist and a patriot. At last check, he seems to be doing extremely well as Union Railway Minister: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... aloo&sid=1. He attributes his success to his no-nonsense approach:
yadukulatilakam (2006)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/rc8qjj
kadanakutUhalarAgE AditAlEna gIyatE
pallavi
yadukulatilakam lAlUm vandE ||
samashticaraNam
vidUshakam vihAranivAsam |
vidum rabarIvaram vicitram ||
dadhipriyam varNabhEdavairim |
udaravantam gOpanAyakam ||
ciTTasvaram
g,p, Sndp mgrs r,m, d,n, GRSn dpR, MGRS
nndd ppmg rrmm ddnn RMGR S,mg rs,m dngp
Translation
I salute Lalu, the mark of the Yadu clan.
Him, who is a humorous character/jester, who is a resident of Vihara (Bihar),
Him, who is intelligent, husband of RabarI, who is an unusual chap,
Him, who is a lover of dairy products, who is an enemy of caste divisions,
Him, who has a large belly, who is a leader of cowherds.
Lalu has had a colorful career:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laloo_Prasad_Yadav
Although perpetually controversial, Lalu is essentially a nationalist and a patriot. At last check, he seems to be doing extremely well as Union Railway Minister: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... aloo&sid=1. He attributes his success to his no-nonsense approach:
I hope you enjoy this short composition!"My mother always told me not to handle a buffalo by its tail, but always take it by its horns. And I have used that lesson in everything in my life, including the railway ministry."
yadukulatilakam (2006)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/rc8qjj
kadanakutUhalarAgE AditAlEna gIyatE
pallavi
yadukulatilakam lAlUm vandE ||
samashticaraNam
vidUshakam vihAranivAsam |
vidum rabarIvaram vicitram ||
dadhipriyam varNabhEdavairim |
udaravantam gOpanAyakam ||
ciTTasvaram
g,p, Sndp mgrs r,m, d,n, GRSn dpR, MGRS
nndd ppmg rrmm ddnn RMGR S,mg rs,m dngp
Translation
I salute Lalu, the mark of the Yadu clan.
Him, who is a humorous character/jester, who is a resident of Vihara (Bihar),
Him, who is intelligent, husband of RabarI, who is an unusual chap,
Him, who is a lover of dairy products, who is an enemy of caste divisions,
Him, who has a large belly, who is a leader of cowherds.
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 29 Apr 2008, 09:53, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
SR
note that 'maghavan' meaning Indra is not derived from the vedic word 'magha' meaning wealth/gift/...
mah pUjAyAM + kanin (UNAdi 1.156) (i.e., one who is highly respected)
Again it is non standard to use vedic vocabulary in compounds. In this case one would take a standard meaning of your expression
'SaurAdivinutamaghamIram'
which will be dissolved as
SaurAdivinutaM + aghamIraM
No problem with the first part; but the second part is
agha (sin) + mIra (ocean) = an ocean of sin (see how ridiculos it gets unless you are planning on vya^Ngya
Note that SubhakAryam normally means 'an auspicious deed' and when you want to use it as a vishEShaNa you use 'SubhakAryakAraM' etc., You are not wrong but it is nonstandard use of the language!
In the same vein your latest on lallu where you call him 'vidUshakam' would normally translate as 'buffoon' which is perhaps appropriate but perhaps not your intention
I am enjoying the Fun! Keep going....
note that 'maghavan' meaning Indra is not derived from the vedic word 'magha' meaning wealth/gift/...
mah pUjAyAM + kanin (UNAdi 1.156) (i.e., one who is highly respected)
Again it is non standard to use vedic vocabulary in compounds. In this case one would take a standard meaning of your expression
'SaurAdivinutamaghamIram'
which will be dissolved as
SaurAdivinutaM + aghamIraM
No problem with the first part; but the second part is
agha (sin) + mIra (ocean) = an ocean of sin (see how ridiculos it gets unless you are planning on vya^Ngya
Note that SubhakAryam normally means 'an auspicious deed' and when you want to use it as a vishEShaNa you use 'SubhakAryakAraM' etc., You are not wrong but it is nonstandard use of the language!
In the same vein your latest on lallu where you call him 'vidUshakam' would normally translate as 'buffoon' which is perhaps appropriate but perhaps not your intention
I am enjoying the Fun! Keep going....
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
I believe that most scholars of the rig-veda derive maghavat from "magha" (wealth/bounty). In most Vedic verses Indra is portrayed as being bountiful in something (e.g., rains, cows, etc). Monier-Williams dictionary defines the word as such.SR
note that 'maghavan' meaning Indra is not derived from the vedic word 'magha' meaning wealth/gift/...
mah pUjAyAM + kanin (UNAdi 1.156) (i.e., one who is highly respected)
I would call it unusual but not unheard of. I like inserting Vedic vocabulary occasionally as it lends an "exotic" touch. Svati Tirunal has also used Vedic voculabulary in compounds, e.g. "dayArNavah". His diction is quite distinct from the east-coast composers.Again it is non standard to use vedic vocabulary in compounds. In this case one would take a standard meaning of your expression
Not at all. I meant maghamIram.agha (sin) + mIra (ocean) = an ocean of sin (see how ridiculos it gets unless you are planning on vya^Ngya
"subhakArya" is a simple bahuvrIhi compound, which is understood from the context. I am labeling a person "subhakArya" i.e. who possesses good actions.Note that SubhakAryam normally means 'an auspicious deed' and when you want to use it as a vishEShaNa you use 'SubhakAryakAraM' etc., You are not wrong but it is nonstandard use of the language!
E.g. Bhagavadgita: "sthitaprajNyah" means "steady intellect" but it is used as to describe a person, viz. "sthitaprajNyasya kA bhAsha ?"
In this case, it is indeed my intention, as noted in the translation. "Vidushaka" indeed means buffoon/joker/jester and Lalu Yadav revels in being one!!In the same vein your latest on lallu where you call him 'vidUshakam' would normally translate as 'buffoon' which is perhaps appropriate but perhaps not your intention
I will post the recording soon.
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
-
- Posts: 373
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:23
though my knowledge of sanskrit and music is not great, i seriously wonder if Dhirubhai and Lalu are deserving enough to be praised by composing kritis!!!
Dhirubhai, successful man that he was, was quite well known to bend rules to suit his company's needs.. and he is being praised as "bhrashTAcAraharaNam" ...
and lalu, well.. the less said the better....
anyways, who am i to say who to compose on and who not to...
Dhirubhai, successful man that he was, was quite well known to bend rules to suit his company's needs.. and he is being praised as "bhrashTAcAraharaNam" ...
and lalu, well.. the less said the better....
anyways, who am i to say who to compose on and who not to...
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
The compositions presented are not always in "praising" mode. They try to cover realistic situations and themes that have an impact. This is a secular form of composition and does not have a religious base.though my knowledge of sanskrit and music is not great, i seriously wonder if Dhirubhai and Lalu are deserving enough to be praised by composing kritis!!!
While I have no gripe against religion-based compositions of CM (like all CM students, I grew up learning them), the current approach is different. For example, X deity of Y kshetra may be little-known (or even of little interest) to someone outside a limited geographical area, but people like Ambani, Lalu etc are household names everywhere. This does not mean that one should composre kritis on any random politician. Only those with unique characteristics should be chosen if the widest impact is desired.
He may have bent the rules when dealing with corrupt bureaucrats and politicians of the "license raj" era but he built his organization to be of excellent quality. If you compare to the PSUs of India "Alasadibhrashtacaraharanam" is quite appropriate in my opinion. Anyhow, the gods who are subjects of traditional CM compositions were not always paragons of virtue eitherDhirubhai, successful man that he was, was quite well known to bend rules to suit his company's needs.. and he is being praised as "bhrashTAcAraharaNam" ...
Lalu, in my opinion, is quite an interesting character and merited a short composition in my scheme of thinking. Again, the compositions presented are secular and therefore tend to use "modern" standards of what is interesting material/subject. They are 100% serious (i.e. not done for a joke) but have to be seen in a different light than religious compositions.and lalu, well.. the less said the better....
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Venkat
bhraShTAcAraharaNam = one who rids of bad behaviour
bhraShTAcAracaraNam = one is devoted to bad beahviour
You get the lattter from the former by changing 'ha' to 'ca' and that is summarized in my pseudo sUtra
hakArasya cashca AdEshaH||
Disclaimer
I am not that familiar with the present crop of 'Indians' to pass any value judgements on them
bhraShTAcAraharaNam = one who rids of bad behaviour
bhraShTAcAracaraNam = one is devoted to bad beahviour
You get the lattter from the former by changing 'ha' to 'ca' and that is summarized in my pseudo sUtra
hakArasya cashca AdEshaH||
Disclaimer
I am not that familiar with the present crop of 'Indians' to pass any value judgements on them
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Aha! :cheesy: I happen to have composed already on these two fine individuals, and will be posting these compositions soon:i dont have anything against "secular" compositions at all... my thoughts were just with the persons chosen... i would imagine a Manmohan Singh or Dr.Kalam to be better choices... anyways, to each man... or woman his own!!! vaazhga jananayagam!!!
"Manamohanena" (in raga mohanam)
"Sri kalamam" (in raga kamavardhani)
CMLover, we can debate "maghavA" (as derived by Panini and Monier-Williams) elsewhere, but the composition "Manamohanena" also contains a non-standard meaning of "pAkashAsana" which only becomes clear within the context .
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Yes indeed!
The vedic sanskrit precedes Panini and hence is not bound by his rules. In fact Panini made several exceptions called ArSha pryOgams for the vedic language (which are not permitted in the classic Sanskrit). However poets take liberty and use them for beauty (sometimes as escapism).
Again since the vedas are considered sacred it ought to be recited (including the accent) in its pristine format and the grammar ought not be corrected!
It is a sacrilege to sing vedic verses using CM though many do it these days!
The vedic sanskrit precedes Panini and hence is not bound by his rules. In fact Panini made several exceptions called ArSha pryOgams for the vedic language (which are not permitted in the classic Sanskrit). However poets take liberty and use them for beauty (sometimes as escapism).
Again since the vedas are considered sacred it ought to be recited (including the accent) in its pristine format and the grammar ought not be corrected!
It is a sacrilege to sing vedic verses using CM though many do it these days!
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
>It is a sacrilege to sing vedic verses using CM though many do it these days!
I would not doubt there are many vedic pundits who think that way.. but then one theory behind Indian classical music is, it all originated in the sAma vEdic chant..Secondly, if CM is a path to spiritual salvation, would it not be an order of magnitude more effective to combine CM with vEdAs...probably not all ragas but thodi, bhairavi and subhapantuvarali all seem to go with the spiritual mood of the veda.
I would not doubt there are many vedic pundits who think that way.. but then one theory behind Indian classical music is, it all originated in the sAma vEdic chant..Secondly, if CM is a path to spiritual salvation, would it not be an order of magnitude more effective to combine CM with vEdAs...probably not all ragas but thodi, bhairavi and subhapantuvarali all seem to go with the spiritual mood of the veda.
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
You are perfectly correct. Therein lies the rub. Panini was a great grammarian of classical Sanskrit but he had no business dabbling in Vedic grammar in the first place. He does a very cursory job of Vedic grammar. For the same reason, derivations of Vedic words like "maghavAn" as given by Panini and other later classical grammarians and lexicographers (Amarasimha etc) must be taken with a pinch of salt.Yes indeed!
The vedic sanskrit precedes Panini and hence is not bound by his rules. In fact Panini made several exceptions called ArSha pryOgams for the vedic language (which are not permitted in the classic Sanskrit). However poets take liberty and use them for beauty (sometimes as escapism).
My preference for the definition of Monier-Williams is not arbitrary but is due to his greater reliance on the context of the occurrence of "maghavAn". I am more comfortable with the straightforward derivation of the "maghavAn" from "magha". But in the broader context I also sympathize with our Indian suspicion of foreigners muddling up our ancient languages. As a result, such issues can be debated endlessly with no resolution !
That being said, there is no real prohibition on Vedic words (not grammar) being imported into classical Sanskrit. At the same time, Vedic and classical Sanskrit should not be considered separate languages. Rather, the classical Sanskrit should be considered a contraction of the original Vedic. Both are 100% Indian languages and nobody else can claim any ownership over them.
Let there be no doubt: Vedic Sanskrit along with the Vedas was manufactured by the Almighty and was transmitted readymade to the Indians who were simultaneously manufactured in four castes and received this knowledge. Hence the question of "correcting" it does not arise at all. All other non-Sanskritic languages (which also are of a good quality) are humanly evolved languages and are not divinely manufactured. However this fine forum cannot be used to elaborate such issues and hence I will not attempt to do so.Again since the vedas are considered sacred it ought to be recited (including the accent) in its pristine format and the grammar ought not be corrected!
I don't believe it is "sacrilegious" to do so, however there is no doubt that the real benefit of the Vedas can only be derived through the correct recitation in the correct format. Very few brahmans in India are capable of this. Certain Nambudiris of the west coast are likely the most adept in this practice. One problem is that most (not all, I must emphasize) brahmans these days want to sit in an air-conditioned office or emigrate to the West - thus it is not surprising that such "sacrileges" occur! Nothing wrong with it, of course - but one cannot have one's cake and eat it too! Hopefully the situation will improve due to efforts of people like Ambani, Lalu etc to improve the economy and social balance of India.It is a sacrilege to sing vedic verses using CM though many do it these days!
Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik
PS: The recording of "yadukulatilakam" in kadanakutuhalam has been uploaded.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Nasadiya sukta only talks about the situation before Creation and the first moments of the Creation, and expresses some uncertainty about what actually happened and whether the Creator Himself knows for sure. However the Veda describes what happened after that in great detail.What about the Vedic accent (svara)? I dont think it finds a place in Classical Sanskrit, right? Isnt that a major loss?
SR, you say Vedic was transferred by God along with Vedas to the castes he "manufactured" :cheesy:
Have you read the nAsadiya suktam of the Rig Veda?
My point is that the Vedas are directly transmitted to the rishis (seers). In other words the Vedas, the Vedic language, and the humans to whom it was transmitted were all part of one "package". None could exist independently of the others.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
The point is this - If it came from the Creator, how can He Himself convey a message as agnostic as that?
Sorry for the digression folks.
That aside, as far as I know, maghavan in Vedas surely referred to Indra for the riches he could confer. I could be wrong though.
Doesnt this word in other Riks refer exclusively to Indra?
Sorry for the digression folks.
That aside, as far as I know, maghavan in Vedas surely referred to Indra for the riches he could confer. I could be wrong though.
Doesnt this word in other Riks refer exclusively to Indra?
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Indeed, it is beyond our understanding, as is the origin of the Universe as explained in the Vedas. It is impossible to analyze this logically. It is beyond logic. All we have to do is to understand that they are infallible. This is not science but beyond science. Nobody can understand the Creator and communicate this understanding in words. Who knows (and who *can* know ?) - He may have been playing a small prank on the Indians that he manufactured or maybe He Himself has no way of conveying the message.The point is this - If it came from the Creator, how can He Himself convey a message as agnostic as that?
Yes I agree, the thread has digressed slightly, maybe we should get back to CM !!Sorry for the digression folks.
I also believe this correct, but perhaps CMLover has a different interpretation. Monier-Williams defines it in those terms. So does the medieval commentator Sayana.That aside, as far as I know, maghavan in Vedas surely referred to Indra for the riches he could confer. I could be wrong though.
Yes, as far as I know.Doesnt this word in other Riks refer exclusively to Indra?
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
SR
I don't want to push this ad nauseum. The western scholars use their own logic to derive ancient vedic words which may not be appropriate. For example describing 'shiva' as the ancient medicine man is repugnant to us (worse still is the attempt to associate with the word (shEva =penis).
As you may note in the dhatupATha it is 'maghavan' that is declined. see
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/lesson/fan/ ... un-c36.htm
The word is not derived with the 'vat' pratyayam from 'magh' in which case it should be 'maghavAn' (which it is not; it is 'maghvA' which is obtained using the 'an' pratyayam.
Westerners indiscriminately use maghavat-->maghavAn
Mallinatha however is well versed in vedas too and hence he can be held as an authority! I have not seen sAyana's derivation. But I could not find the word (yet) in the nighaNTu!
Again note that
SubhakArya is a tatpuruSha compound (not bahuvrIhi) = auspicious deed. Since you can use any 'noun' as an adjective in Sanskrit you can use it to qualify 'ambaani' But then
shubhakArya ambaani would mean 'auspicious deed ambaani' which does not make sense even as a karamadhAraya compound (is it ambaani who is an 'auspicious deed'?).
You can compose using non-standard sanskrit and using your own interpretations (even neologisms) but those are unlikely to be appreciated by language scholars!
But this is a Forum primarily concerned with music and an elaborate discussion of linguistic issues is out of place and I will not comment any further!
I don't want to push this ad nauseum. The western scholars use their own logic to derive ancient vedic words which may not be appropriate. For example describing 'shiva' as the ancient medicine man is repugnant to us (worse still is the attempt to associate with the word (shEva =penis).
As you may note in the dhatupATha it is 'maghavan' that is declined. see
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/lesson/fan/ ... un-c36.htm
The word is not derived with the 'vat' pratyayam from 'magh' in which case it should be 'maghavAn' (which it is not; it is 'maghvA' which is obtained using the 'an' pratyayam.
Westerners indiscriminately use maghavat-->maghavAn
Mallinatha however is well versed in vedas too and hence he can be held as an authority! I have not seen sAyana's derivation. But I could not find the word (yet) in the nighaNTu!
Again note that
SubhakArya is a tatpuruSha compound (not bahuvrIhi) = auspicious deed. Since you can use any 'noun' as an adjective in Sanskrit you can use it to qualify 'ambaani' But then
shubhakArya ambaani would mean 'auspicious deed ambaani' which does not make sense even as a karamadhAraya compound (is it ambaani who is an 'auspicious deed'?).
You can compose using non-standard sanskrit and using your own interpretations (even neologisms) but those are unlikely to be appreciated by language scholars!
But this is a Forum primarily concerned with music and an elaborate discussion of linguistic issues is out of place and I will not comment any further!
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
I have some problems with the declension of Panini that you presented and I do believe the modern Vedic scholars (whether Western or not) have a good point here. But OK let us drop the issue maghavan and its declension since this is not the purpose of this fine forum.
Tatpurusa compound: AB in which B is related to A by means of one of the grammatical cases of A. E.g., pATha-SAlA. A = pATha, B = SAlA. The case relationship is genitive, i.e. "house of study", or alternatively dative, i.e. "house for study".
Bahuvrihi compound: AB in which B has the characteristic A, and the entire compound refers to someone/something that is outside the compound itself. In this case the very fact that A = Subha which is an adjective, makes it clear as a bahuvrihi. The word "bahuvrihi" ("much-rice") refers to a person who has much rice (i.e. a rich man).
"SubhakArya Ambani" is perfectly valid. It means "Ambani of good deeds". Just as "BahuvrIhi Gupta" means "Gupta of Much Rice (i.e. a rich man), and it does mean Gupta is 'much rice'.
Note that "SubhakAryAmbani" itself is a tatpurusha compound (not of the karmadharaya subtype) and the principal (Ambani) appears in the compound itself.
Context is a very important consideration for a Sanskrit language scholar. Those who ignore the context will get confused by the grammar.
In other words if one says "dhirAmbanIm smararE SubhakAryam" it is obvious that SubhakAryam is an epithet of Ambani otherwise it makes no sense.
If you believe this is a tatpurusha compound, would you elaborate the case relationship between the two parts of the compound ?Again note that
SubhakArya is a tatpuruSha compound (not bahuvrIhi) = auspicious deed.
Tatpurusa compound: AB in which B is related to A by means of one of the grammatical cases of A. E.g., pATha-SAlA. A = pATha, B = SAlA. The case relationship is genitive, i.e. "house of study", or alternatively dative, i.e. "house for study".
Bahuvrihi compound: AB in which B has the characteristic A, and the entire compound refers to someone/something that is outside the compound itself. In this case the very fact that A = Subha which is an adjective, makes it clear as a bahuvrihi. The word "bahuvrihi" ("much-rice") refers to a person who has much rice (i.e. a rich man).
This confusion is arising because you have already assumed it to be a tatpurusa compound, which is grammatically non-standard if you ignore the context. "Subhakarya" is a bahuvrihi compound based on standard Sanskrit grammar and not a tatpurusha. Again, could you mention what is the case relationship that compels you to consider it as a tatpurusha ?Since you can use any 'noun' as an adjective in Sanskrit you can use it to qualify 'ambaani' But then
shubhakArya ambaani would mean 'auspicious deed ambaani' which does not make sense even as a karamadhAraya compound (is it ambaani who is an 'auspicious deed'?).
"SubhakArya Ambani" is perfectly valid. It means "Ambani of good deeds". Just as "BahuvrIhi Gupta" means "Gupta of Much Rice (i.e. a rich man), and it does mean Gupta is 'much rice'.
Note that "SubhakAryAmbani" itself is a tatpurusha compound (not of the karmadharaya subtype) and the principal (Ambani) appears in the compound itself.
I don't believe that my Sanskrit is "non-standard". Wherever it is in fact non-standard or uses neologisms, I point it out myself. In the present specific case, it is perfectly standard. Please check again.You can compose using non-standard sanskrit and using your own interpretations (even neologisms) but those are unlikely to be appreciated by language scholars!
Context is a very important consideration for a Sanskrit language scholar. Those who ignore the context will get confused by the grammar.
In other words if one says "dhirAmbanIm smararE SubhakAryam" it is obvious that SubhakAryam is an epithet of Ambani otherwise it makes no sense.
That is probably a good idea!But this is a Forum primarily concerned with music and an elaborate discussion of linguistic issues is out of place and I will not comment any further!
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
CML & SR:
http://rasikas.org/viewforum.php?f=15 might be a better place to continue this discussion on the language aspect.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi#The_Maga_in_India (under Etymology --> Persian)
http://rasikas.org/viewforum.php?f=15 might be a better place to continue this discussion on the language aspect.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi#The_Maga_in_India (under Etymology --> Persian)
-
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
I find this fascinating. ( Quantum uncertainty? ). Can one of you provide some reliable internet reference for me to read up further?Nasadiya sukta only talks about the situation before Creation and the first moments of the Creation, and expresses some uncertainty about what actually happened and whether the Creator Himself knows for sure.
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Do a Google, it will throw up numerous links to articles on the subject.I find this fascinating. ( Quantum uncertainty? ). Can one of you provide some reliable internet reference for me to read up further?
If you are interested in interpretations of the Vedas based on modern physics and cosmology, this book is a great read:
http://www.indiastar.com/closepet5.html
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
In deference to the suggestion by Chembai I have posted the nAsAdIya suktam at
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14140#14140
The ideas and flights of fancy of our vedic forefathers is astounding. If there is an interest that topic can be discussed therein!
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14140#14140
The ideas and flights of fancy of our vedic forefathers is astounding. If there is an interest that topic can be discussed therein!
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
- personal information removed -
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 30 Jan 2007, 00:48, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
purUruNA
an unusual vedic word (found in M-W dictionary but no citation). I would derive it as
puruH means far and wide and is the root word for pUrva meaning 'east'.
ruNA was a river draining into the (mythical) river sarasvati (referenced in mahabharata). Hence
puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory.
(in reference to your Greek Prof, to be known by you coming from Indraprastha is appropriately purUruNAprasiddha )
you may like to change bhavan to bhavAn (used as a pronoun)!
an unusual vedic word (found in M-W dictionary but no citation). I would derive it as
puruH means far and wide and is the root word for pUrva meaning 'east'.
ruNA was a river draining into the (mythical) river sarasvati (referenced in mahabharata). Hence
puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory.
(in reference to your Greek Prof, to be known by you coming from Indraprastha is appropriately purUruNAprasiddha )
you may like to change bhavan to bhavAn (used as a pronoun)!
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
Bingo! Your derivation is correct, as also the implication in context of the present piece. The entire word is used to mean "far and wide" several times.Hence puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory. (in reference to your Greek Prof, to be known by you coming from Indraprastha is appropriately purUruNAprasiddha )
Why ? The entire composition is in sambodhana. Hence bhavan, not bhavAn which would be used with third-person verbs and would spoil the flow of the piece. E.g., "bhavAn kathamasti ?" (How is Your honor ?) v.s. "bhavan kathamasi" (Your honor! how are you ?). The latter fits better in a "sambodhana" composition.you may like to change bhavan to bhavAn (used as a pronoun)!
Often in CM compositions, "bhoh" is used in place of "bhavan" for sambodhana but here I used "bhavan" because it also fits the prasa nicely.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
I presumed this had something to do with the Puru country referenced in the Rig Veda (7.96)...purUruNA
an unusual vedic word (found in M-W dictionary but no citation). I would derive it as
puruH means far and wide and is the root word for pUrva meaning 'east'.
ruNA was a river draining into the (mythical) river sarasvati (referenced in mahabharata). Hence
puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory.
bṛhadu ghāyiṣe vaco.asuryā nadīnām |
sarasvatīmin mahayāsuvṛktibhiḥ stomairvasiṣṭha rodasī ||
ubhe yat te mahinā śubhre andhasī adhikṣiyanti pūravaḥ |
sā no bodhyavitrī marutsakhā coda rādho maghonām ||
That would explain the ruNA river too?
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
As CML mentioned, the word is derived from puruh (east), and itwould seem the Puru tribe of the ancient Indians was based "in the east".That would explain the ruNA river too?
However, CML, I don't think it has anything to do with Aryan invasions etc. I believe the theory of "invading Aryan hordes" etc has been discredited. The Vedas belong to the Indians who were long established in the subcontinent and no outsider has anything to do with the Vedas or Vedic language per se. Of course, it is entirely possible that languages and cultures such as the Greek and Roman evolved out of the Vedic.
Vedic words like purUruNA have a certain "resonance" which cannot be reproduced in any other language. It is impossible (for me) to explain. While contemplating it, enjoy the recording which is now posted !
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 3497
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34
Thanks. Yes, the Aryan invasion theory is disintegrating now due to internal contradictions.
Family trees explaining the relation between the Purus and Kurus (Kurus of Mahabharata)
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/ ... e-ext1.jpg
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/ ... e-ext2.jpg
Family trees explaining the relation between the Purus and Kurus (Kurus of Mahabharata)
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/ ... e-ext1.jpg
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/ ... e-ext2.jpg
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
This is a composition in raga Mohanakalyani on our Honourable Prime Mininster (Dr) Manmohan Singh
Raga: Mohanakalyani. Mela:(65) Mechakalyani
aro: SRGPDS' avaro: S'NDPMGRS
Adi ThaaLam (1/2 eDam)
Pallavi
Mohana kalyANa rUpA- mana
mohana singh nAMa bhUpA pratApA.....(1)
A^NgiLadEsha vidyAdhArI
agaNita prasiddha anvEShaNakArI......(2)
bhArata dEshaththin pradAna manthiri
pAvai kaurin hridaya vihAri...........(3)
sOnia dEvI sE takht uThAyA
binA chunAv sE kAM nibhAyA.............(4)
panjAbil piRannAluM bhAratiyANE
palakAlaM yashassODE vAzhNNIDENE.......(5)
Notes
This is a maNipravALa kriti
(1) compliments the majestic 'Royal' looks of Manmohan Singh. Incidentally the raga mudra is imbedded which draws attention to his affable sweet and auspicious personality
(2) This piece compliments his Intellectual superiority and achievements. Dr Singh had his higher education at the prestigious Oxford University (Nuffield College) from where he obtained his Doctorate in Economics. He has several meritorious publications in the field of Planning and Economics and has been honoured for his scholarship by Universities both in India and abroad.
The above two pieces are in Sanskrit. The following one is in Tamil
(3) Dr. Singh is the 14th Prime minister of India. He is married to a loving wife GursharaN Kaur.
The next piece is in Hindi
(4) Dr. Singh became the Prime Minister by sheer accident. He was never elected to the Lok Sabha by the people(binA chunAv sE kAM nibhAyA.). In 1999 when he contested the seat in South Delhi he was defeated by the BJP candidate. He was appointed to the Finance portfolio by Narasimha Rao (the then Prime Minister) by his membership at the upper house (Rajya sabha). When Sonia Gandhi who was the Leader of the Congress Party refused the priemiership Dr.Singh was a surprise candidate to be chosen amid a deluge of opposition inside the Party. How the 'taKht' landed on his lap is still a mystery filled with speculations.
The final piece is in Malayalam
(5) Dr. Singh was born at Gah in Punjab which is now part of Pakistan. He is a staunch nationalist and never wavered in his loyalty to the country. He is the first Sikh to be chosen for the Prime ministership. His economic policies are far reaching and have opened the doors for India to become an Asian Economic Tiger. The coming Years will indeed prove whether his vision of India is indeed a miracle or a mirage!
The song concludes with the invocation that he should live long with fame as an architect of Nava BhArat! Jai Hind!!
Here is my attempt at rendering in my aging voice. But if any of you want to try I will be honoured!
http://rapidshare.de/files/24094041/Man ... h.mp3.html
Now I am all ears for the lyrica and rendering by SR in Mohanam. My request is that we focus on 'folks' we all know, recognize and honour than on obscure 'AcAryAs'
Raga: Mohanakalyani. Mela:(65) Mechakalyani
aro: SRGPDS' avaro: S'NDPMGRS
Adi ThaaLam (1/2 eDam)
Pallavi
Mohana kalyANa rUpA- mana
mohana singh nAMa bhUpA pratApA.....(1)
A^NgiLadEsha vidyAdhArI
agaNita prasiddha anvEShaNakArI......(2)
bhArata dEshaththin pradAna manthiri
pAvai kaurin hridaya vihAri...........(3)
sOnia dEvI sE takht uThAyA
binA chunAv sE kAM nibhAyA.............(4)
panjAbil piRannAluM bhAratiyANE
palakAlaM yashassODE vAzhNNIDENE.......(5)
Notes
This is a maNipravALa kriti
(1) compliments the majestic 'Royal' looks of Manmohan Singh. Incidentally the raga mudra is imbedded which draws attention to his affable sweet and auspicious personality
(2) This piece compliments his Intellectual superiority and achievements. Dr Singh had his higher education at the prestigious Oxford University (Nuffield College) from where he obtained his Doctorate in Economics. He has several meritorious publications in the field of Planning and Economics and has been honoured for his scholarship by Universities both in India and abroad.
The above two pieces are in Sanskrit. The following one is in Tamil
(3) Dr. Singh is the 14th Prime minister of India. He is married to a loving wife GursharaN Kaur.
The next piece is in Hindi
(4) Dr. Singh became the Prime Minister by sheer accident. He was never elected to the Lok Sabha by the people(binA chunAv sE kAM nibhAyA.). In 1999 when he contested the seat in South Delhi he was defeated by the BJP candidate. He was appointed to the Finance portfolio by Narasimha Rao (the then Prime Minister) by his membership at the upper house (Rajya sabha). When Sonia Gandhi who was the Leader of the Congress Party refused the priemiership Dr.Singh was a surprise candidate to be chosen amid a deluge of opposition inside the Party. How the 'taKht' landed on his lap is still a mystery filled with speculations.
The final piece is in Malayalam
(5) Dr. Singh was born at Gah in Punjab which is now part of Pakistan. He is a staunch nationalist and never wavered in his loyalty to the country. He is the first Sikh to be chosen for the Prime ministership. His economic policies are far reaching and have opened the doors for India to become an Asian Economic Tiger. The coming Years will indeed prove whether his vision of India is indeed a miracle or a mirage!
The song concludes with the invocation that he should live long with fame as an architect of Nava BhArat! Jai Hind!!
Here is my attempt at rendering in my aging voice. But if any of you want to try I will be honoured!
http://rapidshare.de/files/24094041/Man ... h.mp3.html
Now I am all ears for the lyrica and rendering by SR in Mohanam. My request is that we focus on 'folks' we all know, recognize and honour than on obscure 'AcAryAs'
-
- Posts: 11498
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
Maybe I could invite attention to
Singh Sings the Singh Song.
that was reported in the Hindu on Dr Singh's visit to Tanjore the CM Capital
http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/28/stories ... 901100.htm
Perhaps coming Sept 26th one of our CM vidvaan/vidhShi will
sing Singh a CM song
I am sure there won't be a lack of compositions
Singh Sings the Singh Song.
that was reported in the Hindu on Dr Singh's visit to Tanjore the CM Capital
http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/28/stories ... 901100.htm
Perhaps coming Sept 26th one of our CM vidvaan/vidhShi will
sing Singh a CM song
I am sure there won't be a lack of compositions
-
- Posts: 591
- Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19
You beat me to it....This is a composition in raga Mohanakalyani on our Honourable Prime Mininster (Dr) Manmohan Singh
Nicely done! The pallavi begins attractively and the rest of the composition keeps up the initial promise.
Indeed I will share my composition "manamohanena rakshitoham" soon.Now I am all ears for the lyrica and rendering by SR in Mohanam.
The compositions presented cover aspects of life and personalities important to the composer (yours truly). Occasionally compositions will be presented on persons not well known to this forum but who hold great personal importance to me. Also, the "acarya" is not "obscure" at all and is a "star" in his field. Without him, I would likely not be here presenting compositions in my spare time! In such cases, enjoy the music and treat the sahitya as an add-on!My request is that we focus on 'folks' we all know, recognize and honour than on obscure 'AcAryAs'
SR
-
- Posts: 418
- Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:59
Dear CML, here is my humble attempt of this song. I do not know any krithis in mOhanakaLyANi so I am not sure if I've manged to stick to the rAgA all through. Sorry if I have deviated. Also, I couldn't catch the swarAs, so I've omitted them.But if any of you want to try I will be honoured!
http://rapidshare.de/files/24217167/mOh ... m.mp3.html
-
- Posts: 1529
- Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04
Cml,
Very nice composition!!
Now sriram will lend his voice to your compositions.
Sriram, you have rendered very well. I can already feel my hand moving over a virtual violin playing this song.
When I hear all the compositions posted by SR it still has the bhakti feeling that CM offers. May be it is the language -Sanskrit.
Very nice composition!!
Now sriram will lend his voice to your compositions.
Sriram, you have rendered very well. I can already feel my hand moving over a virtual violin playing this song.
When I hear all the compositions posted by SR it still has the bhakti feeling that CM offers. May be it is the language -Sanskrit.