Compositions that reflect contemporary themes.

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

>It is a sacrilege to sing vedic verses using CM though many do it these days!

I would not doubt there are many vedic pundits who think that way.. but then one theory behind Indian classical music is, it all originated in the sAma vEdic chant..Secondly, if CM is a path to spiritual salvation, would it not be an order of magnitude more effective to combine CM with vEdAs...probably not all ragas but thodi, bhairavi and subhapantuvarali all seem to go with the spiritual mood of the veda.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Yes indeed!
The vedic sanskrit precedes Panini and hence is not bound by his rules. In fact Panini made several exceptions called ArSha pryOgams for the vedic language (which are not permitted in the classic Sanskrit). However poets take liberty and use them for beauty (sometimes as escapism).
You are perfectly correct. Therein lies the rub. Panini was a great grammarian of classical Sanskrit but he had no business dabbling in Vedic grammar in the first place. He does a very cursory job of Vedic grammar. For the same reason, derivations of Vedic words like "maghavAn" as given by Panini and other later classical grammarians and lexicographers (Amarasimha etc) must be taken with a pinch of salt.

My preference for the definition of Monier-Williams is not arbitrary but is due to his greater reliance on the context of the occurrence of "maghavAn". I am more comfortable with the straightforward derivation of the "maghavAn" from "magha". But in the broader context I also sympathize with our Indian suspicion of foreigners muddling up our ancient languages. As a result, such issues can be debated endlessly with no resolution !

That being said, there is no real prohibition on Vedic words (not grammar) being imported into classical Sanskrit. At the same time, Vedic and classical Sanskrit should not be considered separate languages. Rather, the classical Sanskrit should be considered a contraction of the original Vedic. Both are 100% Indian languages and nobody else can claim any ownership over them.
Again since the vedas are considered sacred it ought to be recited (including the accent) in its pristine format and the grammar ought not be corrected!
Let there be no doubt: Vedic Sanskrit along with the Vedas was manufactured by the Almighty and was transmitted readymade to the Indians who were simultaneously manufactured in four castes and received this knowledge. Hence the question of "correcting" it does not arise at all. All other non-Sanskritic languages (which also are of a good quality) are humanly evolved languages and are not divinely manufactured. However this fine forum cannot be used to elaborate such issues and hence I will not attempt to do so.
It is a sacrilege to sing vedic verses using CM though many do it these days!
I don't believe it is "sacrilegious" to do so, however there is no doubt that the real benefit of the Vedas can only be derived through the correct recitation in the correct format. Very few brahmans in India are capable of this. Certain Nambudiris of the west coast are likely the most adept in this practice. One problem is that most (not all, I must emphasize) brahmans these days want to sit in an air-conditioned office or emigrate to the West - thus it is not surprising that such "sacrileges" occur! ;) Nothing wrong with it, of course - but one cannot have one's cake and eat it too! Hopefully the situation will improve due to efforts of people like Ambani, Lalu etc to improve the economy and social balance of India.

Best Wishes,
Sangeet Rasik

PS: The recording of "yadukulatilakam" in kadanakutuhalam has been uploaded.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

What about the Vedic accent (svara)? I dont think it finds a place in Classical Sanskrit, right? Isnt that a major loss?

SR, you say Vedic was transferred by God along with Vedas to the castes he "manufactured" :cheesy:

Have you read the nAsadiya suktam of the Rig Veda?

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

What about the Vedic accent (svara)? I dont think it finds a place in Classical Sanskrit, right? Isnt that a major loss?

SR, you say Vedic was transferred by God along with Vedas to the castes he "manufactured" :cheesy:

Have you read the nAsadiya suktam of the Rig Veda?
Nasadiya sukta only talks about the situation before Creation and the first moments of the Creation, and expresses some uncertainty about what actually happened and whether the Creator Himself knows for sure. However the Veda describes what happened after that in great detail.

My point is that the Vedas are directly transmitted to the rishis (seers). In other words the Vedas, the Vedic language, and the humans to whom it was transmitted were all part of one "package". None could exist independently of the others.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

The point is this - If it came from the Creator, how can He Himself convey a message as agnostic as that?

Sorry for the digression folks.

That aside, as far as I know, maghavan in Vedas surely referred to Indra for the riches he could confer. I could be wrong though.

Doesnt this word in other Riks refer exclusively to Indra?

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

The point is this - If it came from the Creator, how can He Himself convey a message as agnostic as that?
Indeed, it is beyond our understanding, as is the origin of the Universe as explained in the Vedas. It is impossible to analyze this logically. It is beyond logic. All we have to do is to understand that they are infallible. This is not science but beyond science. Nobody can understand the Creator and communicate this understanding in words. Who knows (and who *can* know ?) - He may have been playing a small prank on the Indians that he manufactured or maybe He Himself has no way of conveying the message.
Sorry for the digression folks.
Yes I agree, the thread has digressed slightly, maybe we should get back to CM !!
That aside, as far as I know, maghavan in Vedas surely referred to Indra for the riches he could confer. I could be wrong though.
I also believe this correct, but perhaps CMLover has a different interpretation. Monier-Williams defines it in those terms. So does the medieval commentator Sayana.
Doesnt this word in other Riks refer exclusively to Indra?
Yes, as far as I know.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

SR

I don't want to push this ad nauseum. The western scholars use their own logic to derive ancient vedic words which may not be appropriate. For example describing 'shiva' as the ancient medicine man is repugnant to us (worse still is the attempt to associate with the word (shEva =penis).

As you may note in the dhatupATha it is 'maghavan' that is declined. see
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/lesson/fan/ ... un-c36.htm
The word is not derived with the 'vat' pratyayam from 'magh' in which case it should be 'maghavAn' (which it is not; it is 'maghvA' which is obtained using the 'an' pratyayam.
Westerners indiscriminately use maghavat-->maghavAn
Mallinatha however is well versed in vedas too and hence he can be held as an authority! I have not seen sAyana's derivation. But I could not find the word (yet) in the nighaNTu!

Again note that
SubhakArya is a tatpuruSha compound (not bahuvrIhi) = auspicious deed. Since you can use any 'noun' as an adjective in Sanskrit you can use it to qualify 'ambaani' But then
shubhakArya ambaani would mean 'auspicious deed ambaani' which does not make sense even as a karamadhAraya compound (is it ambaani who is an 'auspicious deed'?).

You can compose using non-standard sanskrit and using your own interpretations (even neologisms) but those are unlikely to be appreciated by language scholars!

But this is a Forum primarily concerned with music and an elaborate discussion of linguistic issues is out of place and I will not comment any further!

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

I have some problems with the declension of Panini that you presented and I do believe the modern Vedic scholars (whether Western or not) have a good point here. But OK let us drop the issue maghavan and its declension since this is not the purpose of this fine forum.
Again note that
SubhakArya is a tatpuruSha compound (not bahuvrIhi) = auspicious deed.
If you believe this is a tatpurusha compound, would you elaborate the case relationship between the two parts of the compound ?

Tatpurusa compound: AB in which B is related to A by means of one of the grammatical cases of A. E.g., pATha-SAlA. A = pATha, B = SAlA. The case relationship is genitive, i.e. "house of study", or alternatively dative, i.e. "house for study".

Bahuvrihi compound: AB in which B has the characteristic A, and the entire compound refers to someone/something that is outside the compound itself. In this case the very fact that A = Subha which is an adjective, makes it clear as a bahuvrihi. The word "bahuvrihi" ("much-rice") refers to a person who has much rice (i.e. a rich man).
Since you can use any 'noun' as an adjective in Sanskrit you can use it to qualify 'ambaani' But then
shubhakArya ambaani would mean 'auspicious deed ambaani' which does not make sense even as a karamadhAraya compound (is it ambaani who is an 'auspicious deed'?).
This confusion is arising because you have already assumed it to be a tatpurusa compound, which is grammatically non-standard if you ignore the context. "Subhakarya" is a bahuvrihi compound based on standard Sanskrit grammar and not a tatpurusha. Again, could you mention what is the case relationship that compels you to consider it as a tatpurusha ?

"SubhakArya Ambani" is perfectly valid. It means "Ambani of good deeds". Just as "BahuvrIhi Gupta" means "Gupta of Much Rice (i.e. a rich man), and it does mean Gupta is 'much rice'.

Note that "SubhakAryAmbani" itself is a tatpurusha compound (not of the karmadharaya subtype) and the principal (Ambani) appears in the compound itself.
You can compose using non-standard sanskrit and using your own interpretations (even neologisms) but those are unlikely to be appreciated by language scholars!
I don't believe that my Sanskrit is "non-standard". Wherever it is in fact non-standard or uses neologisms, I point it out myself. In the present specific case, it is perfectly standard. Please check again.

Context is a very important consideration for a Sanskrit language scholar. Those who ignore the context will get confused by the grammar.

In other words if one says "dhirAmbanIm smararE SubhakAryam" it is obvious that SubhakAryam is an epithet of Ambani otherwise it makes no sense.
But this is a Forum primarily concerned with music and an elaborate discussion of linguistic issues is out of place and I will not comment any further!
That is probably a good idea! ;)

srkris
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Post by srkris »

CML & SR:

http://rasikas.org/viewforum.php?f=15 might be a better place to continue this discussion on the language aspect.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi#The_Maga_in_India (under Etymology --> Persian)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nasadiya sukta only talks about the situation before Creation and the first moments of the Creation, and expresses some uncertainty about what actually happened and whether the Creator Himself knows for sure.
I find this fascinating. ( Quantum uncertainty? ). Can one of you provide some reliable internet reference for me to read up further?

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

I find this fascinating. ( Quantum uncertainty? ). Can one of you provide some reliable internet reference for me to read up further?
Do a Google, it will throw up numerous links to articles on the subject.

If you are interested in interpretations of the Vedas based on modern physics and cosmology, this book is a great read:

http://www.indiastar.com/closepet5.html

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

In deference to the suggestion by Chembai I have posted the nAsAdIya suktam at
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14140#14140

The ideas and flights of fancy of our vedic forefathers is astounding. If there is an interest that topic can be discussed therein!

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

- personal information removed -
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 30 Jan 2007, 00:48, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

purUruNA
an unusual vedic word (found in M-W dictionary but no citation). I would derive it as
puruH means far and wide and is the root word for pUrva meaning 'east'.
ruNA was a river draining into the (mythical) river sarasvati (referenced in mahabharata). Hence
puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory.
(in reference to your Greek Prof, to be known by you coming from Indraprastha is appropriately purUruNAprasiddha ;) )

you may like to change bhavan to bhavAn (used as a pronoun)!

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Hence puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory. (in reference to your Greek Prof, to be known by you coming from Indraprastha is appropriately purUruNAprasiddha ;) )
Bingo! :P Your derivation is correct, as also the implication in context of the present piece. The entire word is used to mean "far and wide" several times.
you may like to change bhavan to bhavAn (used as a pronoun)!
Why ? The entire composition is in sambodhana. Hence bhavan, not bhavAn which would be used with third-person verbs and would spoil the flow of the piece. E.g., "bhavAn kathamasti ?" (How is Your honor ?) v.s. "bhavan kathamasi" (Your honor! how are you ?). The latter fits better in a "sambodhana" composition.

Often in CM compositions, "bhoh" is used in place of "bhavan" for sambodhana but here I used "bhavan" because it also fits the prasa nicely.

srkris
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Post by srkris »

purUruNA
an unusual vedic word (found in M-W dictionary but no citation). I would derive it as
puruH means far and wide and is the root word for pUrva meaning 'east'.
ruNA was a river draining into the (mythical) river sarasvati (referenced in mahabharata). Hence
puruH +ruNA = purUruNA (by sandhi rules) meaning east of ruNA river which to the advancing Aryan hordes was a far ahead unknown territory.
I presumed this had something to do with the Puru country referenced in the Rig Veda (7.96)...

bṛhadu ghāyiṣe vaco.asuryā nadīnām |
sarasvatīmin mahayāsuvṛktibhiḥ stomairvasiṣṭha rodasī ||
ubhe yat te mahinā śubhre andhasī adhikṣiyanti pūravaḥ |
sā no bodhyavitrī marutsakhā coda rādho maghonām ||

That would explain the ruNA river too? :twisted:

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

That would explain the ruNA river too? :twisted:
As CML mentioned, the word is derived from puruh (east), and itwould seem the Puru tribe of the ancient Indians was based "in the east".

However, CML, I don't think it has anything to do with Aryan invasions etc. I believe the theory of "invading Aryan hordes" etc has been discredited. The Vedas belong to the Indians who were long established in the subcontinent and no outsider has anything to do with the Vedas or Vedic language per se. Of course, it is entirely possible that languages and cultures such as the Greek and Roman evolved out of the Vedic.

Vedic words like purUruNA have a certain "resonance" which cannot be reproduced in any other language. It is impossible (for me) to explain. While contemplating it, enjoy the recording which is now posted !

srkris
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Post by srkris »

Thanks. Yes, the Aryan invasion theory is disintegrating now due to internal contradictions.

Family trees explaining the relation between the Purus and Kurus (Kurus of Mahabharata)

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/ ... e-ext1.jpg
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/images/ ... e-ext2.jpg

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

This is a composition in raga Mohanakalyani on our Honourable Prime Mininster (Dr) Manmohan Singh

Image


Raga: Mohanakalyani. Mela:(65) Mechakalyani
aro: SRGPDS' avaro: S'NDPMGRS

Adi ThaaLam (1/2 eDam)


Pallavi
Mohana kalyANa rUpA- mana
mohana singh nAMa bhUpA pratApA.....(1)

A^NgiLadEsha vidyAdhArI
agaNita prasiddha anvEShaNakArI......(2)

bhArata dEshaththin pradAna manthiri
pAvai kaurin hridaya vihAri...........(3)

sOnia dEvI sE takht uThAyA
binA chunAv sE kAM nibhAyA.............(4)

panjAbil piRannAluM bhAratiyANE
palakAlaM yashassODE vAzhNNIDENE.......(5)


Notes

This is a maNipravALa kriti

(1) compliments the majestic 'Royal' looks of Manmohan Singh. Incidentally the raga mudra is imbedded which draws attention to his affable sweet and auspicious personality

(2) This piece compliments his Intellectual superiority and achievements. Dr Singh had his higher education at the prestigious Oxford University (Nuffield College) from where he obtained his Doctorate in Economics. He has several meritorious publications in the field of Planning and Economics and has been honoured for his scholarship by Universities both in India and abroad.

The above two pieces are in Sanskrit. The following one is in Tamil

(3) Dr. Singh is the 14th Prime minister of India. He is married to a loving wife GursharaN Kaur.

The next piece is in Hindi

(4) Dr. Singh became the Prime Minister by sheer accident. He was never elected to the Lok Sabha by the people(binA chunAv sE kAM nibhAyA.). In 1999 when he contested the seat in South Delhi he was defeated by the BJP candidate. He was appointed to the Finance portfolio by Narasimha Rao (the then Prime Minister) by his membership at the upper house (Rajya sabha). When Sonia Gandhi who was the Leader of the Congress Party refused the priemiership Dr.Singh was a surprise candidate to be chosen amid a deluge of opposition inside the Party. How the 'taKht' landed on his lap is still a mystery filled with speculations.

The final piece is in Malayalam

(5) Dr. Singh was born at Gah in Punjab which is now part of Pakistan. He is a staunch nationalist and never wavered in his loyalty to the country. He is the first Sikh to be chosen for the Prime ministership. His economic policies are far reaching and have opened the doors for India to become an Asian Economic Tiger. The coming Years will indeed prove whether his vision of India is indeed a miracle or a mirage!

The song concludes with the invocation that he should live long with fame as an architect of Nava BhArat! Jai Hind!!

Here is my attempt at rendering in my aging voice. But if any of you want to try I will be honoured!

http://rapidshare.de/files/24094041/Man ... h.mp3.html

Now I am all ears for the lyrica and rendering by SR in Mohanam. My request is that we focus on 'folks' we all know, recognize and honour than on obscure 'AcAryAs'

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Maybe I could invite attention to
Singh Sings the Singh Song.
that was reported in the Hindu on Dr Singh's visit to Tanjore the CM Capital

http://www.hindu.com/2004/09/28/stories ... 901100.htm

Perhaps coming Sept 26th one of our CM vidvaan/vidhShi will
sing Singh a CM song
I am sure there won't be a lack of compositions ;)

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

This is a composition in raga Mohanakalyani on our Honourable Prime Mininster (Dr) Manmohan Singh
You beat me to it....

Nicely done! The pallavi begins attractively and the rest of the composition keeps up the initial promise.
Now I am all ears for the lyrica and rendering by SR in Mohanam.
Indeed I will share my composition "manamohanena rakshitoham" soon.
My request is that we focus on 'folks' we all know, recognize and honour than on obscure 'AcAryAs'
The compositions presented cover aspects of life and personalities important to the composer (yours truly). Occasionally compositions will be presented on persons not well known to this forum but who hold great personal importance to me. Also, the "acarya" is not "obscure" at all and is a "star" in his field. Without him, I would likely not be here presenting compositions in my spare time! :) In such cases, enjoy the music and treat the sahitya as an add-on!

SR

mnsriram
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Post by mnsriram »

Dear CML, very nice. Please post the swaras.

mnsriram
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Post by mnsriram »

But if any of you want to try I will be honoured!
Dear CML, here is my humble attempt of this song. I do not know any krithis in mOhanakaLyANi so I am not sure if I've manged to stick to the rAgA all through. Sorry if I have deviated. Also, I couldn't catch the swarAs, so I've omitted them.

http://rapidshare.de/files/24217167/mOh ... m.mp3.html

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

WOW!
Thanks MNS! That is a reverbarating MK!

Here is the ciTTa swaram:

S N D S R G,
R G R G P M G- P P S',
P D P D- G P G
G' G' R' S',- N P N
D N S' R', - N N D
G D P G, - P M G
S' N D P M G R

I am truly honoured!
(We must hear more from you!)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Cml,
Very nice composition!!

Now sriram will lend his voice to your compositions.
Sriram, you have rendered very well. I can already feel my hand moving over a virtual violin playing this song.

When I hear all the compositions posted by SR it still has the bhakti feeling that CM offers. May be it is the language -Sanskrit.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Good work CML.
May be it is the language -Sanskrit.
To a large extent, I think, Yes. SR's songs sound like MD songs to me. Just speaking for myself, I am conditioned to strongly associate Sanskrit with Manthra, Poojas and things related to religious matters. This is more so since I do not understand Sanskrit so all of this get put in the same 'mental bucket'..

I just read in wikipedia that "...Sanskrit is claimed to be spoken natively by the population in Mattur, a village in central Karnataka. Inhabitants of all castes learn Sanskrit starting in childhood and converse in the language. Even the local Muslims speak and converse in Sanskrit..."

It will sound to us the most bhakthi oriented village in the whole world.. If Mattur tourism board ( ;) ) wants some ideas, I am brimming with those. We can put Mattur on the Hindu pilgrimage map ;) :cheesy:

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I need a crash course in spoken Sanskrit!

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

I just read in wikipedia that "...Sanskrit is claimed to be spoken natively by the population in Mattur, a village in central Karnataka. Inhabitants of all castes learn Sanskrit starting in childhood and converse in the language. Even the local Muslims speak and converse in Sanskrit..."

It will sound to us the most bhakthi oriented village in the whole world.. If Mattur tourism board ( ;) ) wants some ideas, I am brimming with those. We can put Mattur on the Hindu pilgrimage map ;) :cheesy:
haha VK :cheesy:
mattUru in Shimoga Dist, Karnataka is a sankEti village. It is not on any tourist map/circuit although it is very scenic as most villages are in the malenADu belt of Karnataka. mattUru and hosahaLLi are two sankEti villages on either side of the River TungA. I have been to hosahaLLI when just a boy ages ago. I remember the trip distinctly as I was playing pranks with my cousin and fell into a dung heap(Stored for Gobar gas I guess) and screamed for someone to "save me" :twisted:

srkris
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Post by srkris »

This is getting to be pretty exciting. Thanks to all the contributors - SR, CML as well as Sriram. Keep it coming! ;)

Suji,

I guess you would have heard of the Samskrita Bharati?

India - http://www.samskrita-bharati.org/newsite/index.php
USA - http://www.samskritabharati.org/

DRS,

Sanketi (language) resembles Tamil quite a bit, no?

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Thanks skris for the link. Now I can get in touch with people in my area to learn Sanskrit.

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

DRS,

Sanketi (language) resembles Tamil quite a bit, no?
Yes and no(depending on how you look at it). :P Yes in terms of core vocabulary but no interms of grammar. I didnt mean to make this more compllicated. This is the simples I could come up with (although Iam not satisfied myself). I will ahve to write abook to satisfy myself. I hope to do it one day, and when I do, I will pass on the details andyou can buy that book :cheesy:

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I need a crash course in spoken Sanskrit!
I took one year of Sanskrit long time back in college and that was almost totally useless from a spoken sanskrit point of view and it was not long enough to learn to understand sanskrit. It did help in bringing some familiarity to Sanskirt, that is all. The focus of that course was on memorizing the shabdams for various noun roots etc....

How about CML, DRS, SR and srkris start a thread in the Language section to teach us spoken sanskrit. They can upload some spoken common sentences every day along with the meaning. Just a thought...

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

I need a crash course in spoken Sanskrit!
How about CML, DRS, SR and srkris start a thread in the Language section to teach us spoken sanskrit. They can upload some spoken common sentences every day along with the meaning. Just a thought...
I was thinking (hoping) the same... :cheesy:

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

We can break those common sentences to the following groups..

1) Sentences from talking with family members ("What is for dinner" ;) )
2) Talking with friends ( anything goes here )
3) Talking with strangers("It is so hot today" )
4) Talking with work colleagues on work matters("I am just returning your call..you wanted to talk about that project")
5) Talking to oneself ( "Oh, I wish I did that differently" )

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Now I wish to continue our experiments. I believe the magic is in CM and not in the language. We of course have to coddle the language (and the accents) to get the right laya and melody. Even Western music takes liberty with the accents of the language and hence I am not apologizing! Here is a bold attempt..

I wish to pay Tribute to our unforgettable MLV the Queen of CM. I have to thank Meena for sparking this effusion!
Image

Ragam Shanmugapriya ThaaLam Adi

ThokayaRA (viruttaM/sonnet)

Melody was the motivating force
Hence that was the very first letter,
Laya was the captivating source
Hence that became her second letter
Vinyasa was naturally her voice
MLV is thus the name of choice...

Pallavi

Melody Laya Vinyasa MLV
My Lady you are the Queen of these..

Anupallavi

Music is meant for mental peace
Molded by you with poise and grace..

CharaNam

You brought to CM the feminine touch
You got the magic that packs in so much
Ne'er did we realize the beauty and charm
(of) Thyagaraja, Purandara Music so warm

a variety, no satiety, no banality or immorality
witty, gritty, fitting, uplifting (heavenly)
...


(note italics in durita kaalam..
Also the Pallavi first line is structured for neraval and nice kalpana svaram)
Now here is my pilot attempt at rendering

http://rapidshare.de/files/24315040/Mel ... V.mp3.html

I hope to hear it from you MNS and others too as we start expanding the horizons of CM

mnsriram
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:59

Post by mnsriram »

I guess you would have heard of the Samskrita Bharati?

India - http://www.samskrita-bharati.org/newsite/index.php
USA - http://www.samskritabharati.org/
Anything in the UK?

mnsriram
Posts: 418
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:59

Post by mnsriram »

Dear SR and CML, do you have any compositions (preferably Sanskrit) on the Guru? "guru pourNima" is in July and I am looking for a few compositions.

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

CML,
That's a nice experiment.
You are right that it is raga, gamaka, etc which also gets associated with bhakti in CM.
But your earlier one in sanskrit definitely has more bhakti feeling than one in English..just my feeling.

If you composed the same MLV praise in sanskrit....it will be different .

mnsriram
Posts: 418
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:59

Post by mnsriram »

If you composed the same MLV praise in sanskrit....it will be different .
I agree with Suji on this.

Dear CML, why shaNmukhapriya? Just curious as to why you chose this rAgA?

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Suji/MNS

I have to disagree on the issue of bhakti and sanskrit.It is the conditioning that evokes the bhakti response. We are used to the myriads of songs of MD/Svaati/Naryana theertha/.... on divinity in sanskrit that we automatically get into the veneration mood. Let me tell you a funny story.
A certain kavi went to his paramour and started praising her:
'kuyil pOla kuralazhaki' (you the one with melodious voice like cuckoo)
'mayil pOla ezhilazhaki' (you the one beautiful like the peacock)
'kovvai ithazhazhaki' (you with lovely lips like bimba fruit)
'mada yaanai naDai azhaki' (you who walks elegantly like the intoxicated elephant)
She interupted him angrily and said I am not dark like the cuckoo, raucous like the peacock or fat like the elephant.. and if you want to sing my beauty say something like KaLidaasa. Unfortunately she knew no sanskrit and neither did the poet. He went to his friend 'Tenali Rama' and explained his plight. Tenalirama told him to go and sing to her as
'arka shuShka phala kOmaLastanI'. As the poet said it the Lady became mighty happy complimented him for the mellifluous musical words but asked him what it meant. The poet bought some time and went and asked Tenali Rama who explained that it meant 'you the one with breasts like the shrunken fruit kept under the hot Sun'. Of course I don't have to tell you whether the poet ever dared tell her the true meaning!

I chose ShaNmugapriya for the right mood. Several other ragas would have fitted too, but I have been fascinated by MLV's songs and viruttams in this raga.

I will u/l tomorrow part of the self same verse (hopefully) in Sanskrit and you can tell me whether you feel any bhakti at all ;) But in the meantime do give the 'English one' a try!

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

Anything in the UK?
The "Bharatiya vidya bhavan" conducts sanskrit classes regularly in London(West Kensington). You could contact Dr.Nandakumara/anyone else there for further details.

This is their website

http://bhavan.co.uk/index.php

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

CML,
That story made me laugh!
That's exactly my situation.

If you composed making fun of some one in sanskrit or even in Tamil I would be like the lady in your story :cheesy:

Well, I think this thread may change our perception..or will it not?

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

The next composition presented is in honor of Prof. Manmohan Singh (b. 1932), fourteenth Prime Minister of the Indian Union.

Image


manamOhanEna rakshitOham (2006)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/sfnszc

mOhanarAgE rUpakatAlEna gIyatE

pallavi

manamOhanEna rakshitOham pradhAna- |
mantriNA SirOveshTadharENa simhEna ||

anupallavi

janamAnasanivAsEna pancApabhaumEna |
jaTilakESEna mahAmarikESamAnitEna ||

caraNam

paramANvAyudhEna dAridryanivAraNEna |
paribhAshAdhISEna sampattiSAstrakOvidEna ||
karadhRtakirapANEna turakapAkaSAsanEna |
guruSaraNanAyakEna sikhaSikhAmaNinA varENa ||


Translation

I am protected by Manmohan, the Prime Minister,
By him who wears a turban/head-dress, who is a lion [1].

By him who resides in the mind of the people,
By him who originates from the land of five rivers [2],
By him who has twisted/braided hair,
By him who is respected by the great American leader [3].

By him who wields nuclear weapons, by him who alleviates poverty,
By him who is a master of debate, by him who is an expert in economics,
By him who holds the kirapANa [4], By him who dominates the Turakas and Pakas [5],
By him who is the beloved of GuruSaraNa [6], By him who is the crown-jewel of the Sikhs, By the excellent one.

Notes

[1] Simha = Lion (or Singh, the common name of all Sikhs).
[2] modern Punjab.
[3] Reference to G. W. Bush.
[4] Reference to the 'kirpan' (the ceremonial dagger of the Sikhs).
[5] Reference to the Turakas (Turks/Arabs/Middle-easterners) and Pakas (Pakistanis).
[6] Reference to Gursharan Kaur, wife of Manmohan Singh.
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 20 Dec 2007, 09:56, edited 1 time in total.

mnsriram
Posts: 418
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:59

Post by mnsriram »

The "Bharatiya vidya bhavan" conducts sanskrit classes regularly in London(West Kensington). You could contact Dr.Nandakumara/anyone else there for further details.

This is their website

http://bhavan.co.uk/index.php
Thanks DRS

srkris
Site Admin
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 03:34

Post by srkris »

The "Bharatiya vidya bhavan" conducts sanskrit classes regularly in London
I was about to say the same thing, and I have heard the instructors are really good. No first hand information, though.

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

Incidentally, Dr.Nandakumara is from Mattur.

I should think the standard of teaching must be good.

mnsriram
Posts: 418
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:59

Post by mnsriram »

I actually happened to meet Sri Nandakumara twice, once at Bhavans and the other time at a music programme on Purandaradasa in Basingstoke, where he was the chief guest but I wasn't aware about the sanskrit classes conducted at Bhavan.

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

CML,
That's a nice experiment.
You are right that it is raga, gamaka, etc which also gets associated with bhakti in CM.
But your earlier one in sanskrit definitely has more bhakti feeling than one in English..just my feeling.

If you composed the same MLV praise in sanskrit....it will be different .
SujiRam - I agree totally with you. While the meaning in the lyrics are nice, the English words sung to a raga just make the composition sound comical to me.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

SujiRam - I agree totally with you. While the meaning in the lyrics are nice, the English words sung to a raga just make the composition sound comical to me.
Singing CM with English lyrics is not without precedent - MS Subbulakshmi sang a hymn with English lyrics in her UN concert. The present composition by CML reminded me of that.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Well done SR! Nice composition appropriately done. The use of the word 'pAkashAsana' to indicate the contolling of Pakistani is clever. I noticed again a double entendre here:
'turakapAkaSAsanEna' turaka uccaishrava tasya pati pAkashAsana indra tena
(the Lord of the excellent horse who is Indra (the one ruling from Indraprastha)

I thought the Turks were referred to as turuShka in sanskrit!

let me also hope the invocation 'dAridryanivAraNEna' does become a fact for our folks in the sub continent ;)

Now I wait the mOhanamOhitamOhana raagam!

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