Have the Violin Trinity Left a Void?

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 03 Mar 2009, 19:56

RKSK-Varadarajan are the TNK-LGJ of today, IMHO. Akkarai Subhalakshmi is very very good too.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 03 Mar 2009, 20:54

who is RKSK

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 03 Mar 2009, 21:31

http://spicmacay.tamu.edu/about_artists/sriramkumar

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Mar 2009, 22:17

mohan wrote:Nick - I guess that some of the senior violinists rightly think they are good enough to be main artistes (in a solo/duet/trio concert) rather than accompanists.

I don't dount that, and, rightly, as you say --- but why should they give up accompaniment?

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 03 Mar 2009, 22:53

coolkarni wrote:The argument will ultimately depend on the INDIVIDUAL STAMP left by the concerned person / artist.
If I were given samples of tracks without an identification-and without information about the main artists or period , I would still be able to identify , only Lalgudi-TNK-MSG-MC-Dwaram and Chowdiah with a 100 % guarantee.

Coolji,

With all your music collections,I expected more from you. Clearly, LGJ. TNK, MSG, Chowdiah, MC, VVS were great no doubt and easily identifiable. Sometimes, our familiarity is based on the number of times we have listened to a particular musician. There were many, many good violinists who somehow did not get much recognition.

Ariyakudi - Papa - Mani Iyer & Mali - Papa - Palghat Mani Iyer was a popular performing team. TNK for was considered a protege of Papa Venkataramiah. Rajamanickam Pillai has performed so many concerts with Viswanatha Iyer, Madurai Mani Iyer and GNB.

There was a violinist Tiruvallore Subramanian who has performed many concerts with ML Vasanthakumari and Madurai Somu - outstanding bowing. In your audio snippet of Neelothpalamba - Kannadagowla recording of Alathur Brothers - the violinist is Marala Kesava Rao.
Alandur Natarajan brother of Prof. S. Ramanathan, Chitoor Gopalakrishnan Guru of Nagai Muralidharan ...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 04 Mar 2009, 06:58

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 04 Mar 2009, 10:23

More interesting points being unearthed here.

i. Matter of individual stamp while demonstrating main artiste's bani
I too can only identify LGJ/TNK/MSG/MC from recordings, and only Mysore brothers from current artistes (because of their MSG-esque playing), but I ascribe this more to the specific playing techniques rather than any musical stamp. I usually distinguish between the yesteryear greats based on the gamakas they produce. Most violinists nowadays seem to use a combination of techniques and that makes it difficult to identify each. On a musical level, there is no doubt that the past violinists were most sensitive to the individual style of each main artiste, but IMHO so too are the current violinists. Another factor to consider is that even vocalists today adopt from various styles and most of them are still evolving their own bani, so it's doubly difficult for a violinist to be expected to capture the essence of the current vocalist's style where that style too is as much an amalgam of others' as the violinist's.

ii. Evolution of concerts
I fully agree that the leisurely format of a 4h concert in the past probably allowed the violinist greater participation and there was probably also no hurry for the violinist to finish his response in an incredibly short time. Wrt current violinists, I do have a complaint that several of them actually underplay and conclude their responses in an unduly short time and as a result don't do themselves [or the raga] maximal justice.

Srikant raises another interesting question: Has the role of the violinist evolved from when LGJ/TNK/MSG/others were in full flow [40s-70s?] to the present?

Nick, I have no answer to your question about why MSG/TNK have stopped accompanying. But they ARE advancing in years, accompaniment IS more tiring than solo concerts (where they most often play with their children), and in looking to maximise they WOULD choose solos where they can best demonstrate the depth of their music. In an interview sometime back, TNK had said that his focus now is on exploring the nuances of ragas and indeed in a lot of his concerts I find him playing phrases I've never heard before and that yet conform to the raga's character... I suppose, for TNK/VVS/MSG (VVS doesn't accompany anymore either, right?), priorities have simply changed, their music continues to evolve and they feel they can best showcase that evolution in solos. But it's certainly an interesting question.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Mar 2009, 14:53

Thanks for that contribution to my question, Bilahari; it makes sense!

Probably I have little else to contribute to this thread --- I'll still be reading with interest

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 04 Mar 2009, 17:02

Interestingly, MSG/LGJ/TNK are of the same age group. As many have expressed in this thread they set new (high) standards in accompanying.

An all time great was Dwaram. He used to regularly accompany SSI and MSI before he took to solo concerts. His music (specially with Dwaram Narasinga Rao and Marella Kesava Rao) was for the gods.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Mar 2009, 18:43

Bilahari,

Most of the younger accompanists these days use the same gamakas as their gurus.

So RKSK uses VVS/TNK style, and Padma, Vittal et al use LGJ style.

So I can usually make out whether it's "Padma-Vittal-Vijayalakshmi" or "RKSK-BUG", but find it hard to tell which of the groups is the one.

I feel this is because when accompanying, they need to introduce the main artist's style, and so they get only space for the bani (guru) and the main artist's style, leaving little for themselves. In solos, they can put forth a little more of themselves. But trouble is people don't seem to attend these people's solos.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 04 Mar 2009, 21:33

"Wrt current violinists, I do have a complaint that several of them actually underplay and conclude their responses in an unduly short time and as a result don't do themselves [or the raga] maximal justice."

Is there any time pressure from the main vocalist? We don't know.

Also, an important factor to be noted is competition. I would say LGJ/TNK/MSG combined had less competition than the current group of RKSK/Varadarajan/Nagai......the list goes on. In addition, not many present day artists are focussing on building teams,so there is no healthy collaboration. So it is possible that the violinists are not investing in understanding the personality of the main musician and express that reflection in the music. Exceptions are Sanjay-Nagai where they enjoy a healthy win-win relationship. In other words, they accompany the music not the musician!!!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 05 Mar 2009, 02:38

Kadambam, you're right- we don't know if there's pressure from the vocalist. I think it has more to do with the inherent limitations of the shorter concert format, as Srikant pointed out.

Also, your point that meaningful long-term collaborations are not being formed is in complete contrast to Coolji's complaint (post 49) that current violinists do not accompany as many vocalists as the trinity did!

visaalam · Post by **visaalam** » 05 Mar 2009, 14:10

viswam wrote:As a lover of instrumental music especially flute and violin ,I think its very limiting to just mention only three veterans ..
it could be a bit more lengthy .
TNK-LGJ-MSG -VVS-MC-KV
ie.tnkrishnan,msgopalakrishnan,lalgudijayaraman,vvsubramaniam,mchandrasekharan,kunnukudivaidyanathan...

adding MC,VVS is fine. But odd man out is KV

his style was a mockery. His performances were comedy shows. There was no technique in what he played. No doubt he was a crowd puller, but his crowd was looking for some cheap entertainment such as facial expressions, using violin as a mimicry tool etc. Common men such as rikshaw pullers and auto drivers loved his concerts. Serious rasikas avoided him as they would not have learnt or heard anything new in that concert.

If we have to substitute KV with someone else, it will be Dr L Subramaniam

He has both vidwat and techniques. Just that his focus is not in carnatic music 100%

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 05 Mar 2009, 14:29

How about A Kanyakumari?

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 05 Mar 2009, 14:59

visaalam wrote:
viswam wrote:As a lover of instrumental music especially flute and violin ,I think its very limiting to just mention only three veterans ..
it could be a bit more lengthy .
TNK-LGJ-MSG -VVS-MC-KV
ie.tnkrishnan,msgopalakrishnan,lalgudijayaraman,vvsubramaniam,mchandrasekharan,kunnukudivaidyanathan...
adding MC,VVS is fine. But odd man out is KV

his style was a mockery. His performances were comedy shows. There was no technique in what he played. No doubt he was a crowd puller, but his crowd was looking for some cheap entertainment such as facial expressions, using violin as a mimicry tool etc. Common men such as rikshaw pullers and auto drivers loved his concerts. Serious rasikas avoided him as they would not have learnt or heard anything new in that concert.

If we have to substitute KV with someone else, it will be Dr L Subramaniam

He has both vidwat and techniques. Just that his focus is not in carnatic music 100%

very true . but I was bery hesitant to say this or I miight have been pelted with stones by fellow rasikas. Going through the massive glorification he enjoyed by our rasikas after his demise I thought I rather be mum.

But this always happens in fine arts where there is no parameter to measure one's standard the popularity goes mostly by influence and in his case lady luck did not smile but was rolling and laughing. He enjoyed great popularity amongst the musicaly ignorant masses mostly.

Few other light musicians s tried to copy his style but lady luck did not slightly ever smile. he had a insipid style . mostly mockery. he avoided playing gana raagas. I have heard many people terming him as harmonium petti for the lack of gamakas.

Inspite of the popularity there has been no kunnakudi school . no body wants to learn that.

And very true L.Subramanium did not focus on Carnatic but he is great .

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 06 Mar 2009, 15:30

No need to sound so elitist. If you don't like someone or something, feel free to say so without having to make value judgements on the person concerned.

It is after all only music!

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Mar 2009, 16:53

I am not reluctant to talk the merits and demerits on some one who had dared to sit on the arena. if they had not been there I would not be wriitng anythign here now.once they are on the dais they are vulnerable to criticism. they are gauged and analysed. one need not feel hurt by it. I dont go by popular belief. odd is that they do public performance and the public ought to keep keep mum about their styles.

If popular belief is to be espoused I would say kathaazha idupaala izukkaadha nee enna and naakku mukka naakku mooka adra adra naaku mookka stands much better than any trinity music as of now by popular demands and also by popularity.

if music to mass is what one aims for songs like this is suffice.

I am a staunch beleiver of educating the mass rather than diluting for reach. Otherwise kissing goes by favor.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Mar 2009, 16:56

As for as fingering techniques the 5- MSG. LALGUDI, TNK, MC AND VVS had dug out as much as possible there is not much for others to explore. I find many doing cut and past of these styles at apt places and it has its own beauty.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Mar 2009, 17:07

I am sorry that I had been too hypercritical in the earlier post. But a decade back attendace to his cutchery made me to vent out so. He was asking at the audience for their wish list and one of my friends wanted enna thavam in kapi. I had never heard such a enna thavam . a straight mockery. with some funny phrases throughout. Even then , when I was much less knowledged than now I could not stand it.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 06 Mar 2009, 17:40

L.Subramaniam is no way in the same league as Kunnakkudi Vaidyanathan, LS is leagues ahead in Classical Music.

Of course he may not be a mainstream Carnatic violinist today in the same league as LGJ/TNK/MSG but thats not because of any lack of ability, its because since the 70s and 80s, he chose to voluntarily diversify into western classical music and other international genres.

He has accompanied most of the older generation singers with critical acclaim. If someone like Palghat Mani Iyer has accompanied him on numerous occasions, there definitely is a standard to LS (not merely because of PMI's accompaniment, but on his own merits).

There is a very fine line between playing for the masses and playing to the gallery, and this line is what divides LS and Kunnakkudi. LS does not indulge in empty gimmickry.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 06 Mar 2009, 17:47

Skris

you got me wrong. did i compare them both.

though I dont understand western, the remark below stands testimony to his wizardry and stupendous talent.

from wikipedia - L.Subramanium

The renowned violinist Yehudi Menuhin said of Subramaniam:

" I find nothing more inspiring than the music making of my very great colleague Subramaniam. Each time I listen to him, I am carried away in wonderment."

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 06 Mar 2009, 17:49

I just said what I said since somebody seemed to say that it is possible to substitute KV with LS.

We dont know why Yehudi Menuhin commented that - was it in response to LS' carnatic music performances or generally wrt his playing style/abilities?

money · Post by **money** » 19 Mar 2009, 23:21

Many have wondered why MSG TNK etc have given up accompanying.
Apart from their skill and artistry, these great violinists stood out as accompanists due to their sharpness of the ear, keen anticipation and alertness, as they matched wits with the greatest musicians of their time.
Ageing takes its toll even on these maestros.With these faculties less than reliable, they must have chosen to give up, rather than come down from their lofty standards.

money · Post by **money** » 19 Mar 2009, 23:38

KV was never a purists delight. He played to a different gallery.
There are many things which can be held against him if he is put through the sieve of the music academy gallery.
Yet his shruthi suddham and control over the instrument can never be questioned.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 20 Mar 2009, 07:20

It appears that the thread is going off its main subject. It is not only about the technique, but the performance and depth of knowledge. MSG, TNK, LGJ had listened to many all time great musicians from their childhood and all that knowledge stood behind them while they played. They faced situations courageously when facing complicated pallavis specially set up by the vocalist to challenge the violinist and every time they came out with flying colours. LGJ told me that he had not met Mudikondan before accompanying him during his demonstration of Simhanandana Pallavi in the Music Academy. The improved technique was one aspect only. I do not know whether there is anyone who can match them in depth of music as well as technique ? It is not true that there were no competitors. There were plenty of them in those days also. Because they could not rise to the occasion the vocalists had to constrict their exposition.

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 28 Mar 2009, 15:46