Guru Sishya Tree of Mrudangam Artistes

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Sep 2009, 18:30

After many years I have embarked on updating the Guru-Sishya tree of mrudangam artistes
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ ... gists.html

This was first developed in the late 1990s with help of members of the usenet group rec.music.indian.classical (RMIC)

If you want to add an artist to the tree let me know in this thread and I can update it. I'd prefer to limit new additions to performing artistes (lets say who perform regularly in the December Chennai music season)

rajanp · Post by **rajanp** » 29 Sep 2009, 18:36

Aum

Thanks Mohan

I can update some info , can you please mailo me an excel file please
rajanpad@nedbank.co.za

Aum

Rajan
Disciple of Sri M N Kandaswami

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 29 Sep 2009, 18:39

Rajan - please post any updates here so I can consolidate all the updates

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 29 Sep 2009, 19:19

Good effort Mohan

Kodunthirapully Parameswaran is a senior disciple of Dr T K Murthy. A link about the artist is as below.

http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2007/06/15/s ... 660300.htm

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 29 Sep 2009, 22:48

mohan, great work. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but may I suggest that you consider using graph software that can depict this information better, especially as you get more data and more connections?
Graphvizis an open-source tool that is quite good.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Sep 2009, 23:16

Mohan, Could you limit it to practicing/teaching musicians, without limiting it to Chennai?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 30 Sep 2009, 03:29

Yes - Nick that's fine - I just didn't want to include every mrudangam student in the world

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 30 Sep 2009, 03:30

gn - does graphviz save in HTML?

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 30 Sep 2009, 08:41

mohan, I don't believe it does, only as a bitmap or a JPEG. I'll investigate this field a bit and post again - there are probably other tools out there that may be easier to use and/or better.

hindolam · Post by **hindolam** » 30 Sep 2009, 10:12

Isn't R Ramesh a disciple of Kariakudi Mani and not of Umayalpuram Sivaraman?

rajanp · Post by **rajanp** » 30 Sep 2009, 10:51

AUM

Hindolam , yes you are right to the best of my knowledge he is Karaikudi Mani's Disciple

Rajan Padiachi
South Africa

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 30 Sep 2009, 12:03

hindolam - he is listed under both. Are you sure he hasn't had training with UKS, perhaps Sri Erode Nagaraj can clarify

rajanp · Post by **rajanp** » 30 Sep 2009, 12:09

Aum

Mohan he is at AIR chennai, phone him and ass him
he is a very humble kind person.

Aum

Rajan Padiachi
South Africa

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Sep 2009, 15:48

mohan wrote:Yes - Nick that's fine - I just didn't want to include every mrudangam student in the world

Ahh, yes... I see what you mean

.

Please include my Guruji, M Balachandar, under both N Ramaswami and MN Kandaswamy. Even though he has "disappeared" to UK, he is still nothing but a professional mridangist there. Under London Bharatya Vidya Bhavan, he is even teaching degree students and has been accepted as a Fellow of Trinity College (not bad for someone who left school at 15 to be a musician!). He also works ceaselessly at rationalising and codifying the teaching of mridangam, and at the mathematical science of laya. He has professional students here in Chennai, but I think that they only play for dance.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 30 Sep 2009, 17:46

Nick and Cienu I have added the ones you suggested. Nick, I also added Balachandar's brother Dhanamjayan (who plays for dance) under Coimbatore Ramaswamy Pillai. Have also added a few I got on email.

rajanp · Post by **rajanp** » 30 Sep 2009, 18:29

AUM

Dear Mohan, we need a format that we can save and add onto
can you place the latest version on carnatic.com

Aum

Rajan Padiachi
South Africa

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 30 Sep 2009, 18:30

Dear Mohan,

R.Ramesh is Shri KRM's disciple only.

UKS sir's disciples include

Madurai B.Sundar,
Ammangudi S.Ramnarayan,
Trivandrum N.Hariharan,
R.Charan (Pitsburgh),
Mayavaram S.Siva (Houston),
R.Aravind (forumite),
Mudikondan V.Kaushik,
J.Venkatramanan,
R.Adamya (Banglore),
R.Ramkumar(forumite),
S.Sudharsan,
Swamimalai Girish S.Sundar,
Nellai V. Sreekrishnan,
Madurai V.Vignesh (Boston),
Mannargudi V. Shreyas,
Thalaignayar S.Harish Kumar
R. Akshayram.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 01 Oct 2009, 05:11

Thanks - will update tonight

suneeth.krishnan · Post by **suneeth.krishnan** » 01 Oct 2009, 09:43

The Guru Sishya tree would be incomplete unless Prof. Mavelikara Velukkutty Nair, the senior most Mridangam Maestro from Kerala, is put under Sri. Palghat Mani Iyer. He is infact one of the senior desciples of legend Sri. Palakkad T S Mani Iyer. His peers at "Guru Sannidhi" includes Palakkad Raghu, Umayalpuram K Sivaraman, and V Kamalakar Rao. Prof. Velukkutty Nair was one year Junior to Sri. Palghat Raghu, and was senior to Umayalpuram, and Sri. Kamalakar Rao, while studying under the great guru.

An "A Top" artist, he has retired as Professor & Head, Department of Mridangam, Sri. Swathi Thirunal College of Music, Trivandrum. He is equally good in vocal too. There are many occassions where Umayalpuram played mridangam for Prof. Velukkutty Nair's concert.

His desciples includes:

B. Harikumar
T V Vasan (He had training under his brother T V Gopalakrishnan too)
Parassala B Ravi (K V Prasad's first guru)
Alleppey G Chandrasekharan Nair
Trivandrum V Surendran (He had training under Sri. Palghat T R Rajamani too)
Kadakkavoor G S Rajeshnath
Erickavu N Sunil
Trivandrum R. Vaidyanathan (He had training under Sri. Palghat Raght too)
Kadanad V K Gopi

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Oct 2009, 12:18

mohan wrote:Nick and Cienu I have added the ones you suggested. Nick, I also added Balachandar's brother Dhanamjayan (who plays for dance) under Coimbatore Ramaswamy Pillai. Have also added a few I got on email.

Not sure about that. His brother is much younger, almost a different generation, but I have only met him once and don't know him personally.

While I sometimes feel that dance mridangists get a slightly raw deal in terms of perception, I am also guilty of often not perceiving them at all, because I rarely attend dance performances.

ambika.sundaram · Post by **ambika.sundaram** » 01 Oct 2009, 12:58

@mohan - I would agree with what @suneeth.krishnan has put. Velukkutty Nair Sir is really a legend, a real maestro, and a great man too.

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 01 Oct 2009, 17:05

suneeth.krishnan wrote: Trivandrum V Surendran (He had training under Sri. Palghat T R Rajamani too)

Hi

I am not sure whether Surendran sir studied under Velukutty sir. But, I'm sure he did his advanced training under PMI and not his son Rajamoney sir.

~ Raghav.

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 01 Oct 2009, 17:05

suneeth.krishnan wrote: Trivandrum V Surendran (He had training under Sri. Palghat T R Rajamani too)

Hi

I am not sure whether Surendran sir studied under Velukutty sir. But, I'm sure he did his advanced training under PMI and not under his son Rajamoney sir.

~ Raghav.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Oct 2009, 19:15

The tree is really growing... Good work, Mohan!

ignoramus · Post by **ignoramus** » 01 Oct 2009, 19:41

Raghav

As per the recent book in Malayalam on PMI named "Sogasuga mridanga thalamu", Surendran seems to have spent time with PMI. Maybe in that period, interaction would have happened with TRR

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 01 Oct 2009, 20:27

Dear ignoramus,

That may be possible. However, Surendran sir used to sit beside PMI during concerts and was his student in his later performing years. I was told about this by Sri N. Babu, son of late Sri Neyyatinkara Vasudevan.

~ Raghav

suneeth.krishnan · Post by **suneeth.krishnan** » 01 Oct 2009, 23:16

@raghavt - Trivandrum V Surendran had his initial to advanced training under Velukkutty Sir only. This is a known fact to all. Later Velukkutty sir had sent him to study under PMI. But that time, PMI was too busy, and hence his son Rajamoni Sir was engaged for training Sri. Surendran.

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 02 Oct 2009, 02:37

Oh is that so? I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me and also for the info. BTW cd u please introduce yourself... maybe u can send a message to me raghavendran_t@dell.com

suneeth.krishnan · Post by **suneeth.krishnan** » 02 Oct 2009, 11:48

@raghavt - I am not a musician - just a music lover. Also interested in reading books related to carnatic music and musicians. Am basially from Kollam, Kerala, and now settled in Bangalore. How about you ?

rajanp · Post by **rajanp** » 02 Oct 2009, 12:51

Aum

Mohan

I will need to do my sheet in excel and postt to you in a few days
as i have the full TREE for the Pudukkotai / Palani tradition downwards

Please mail me at rajanpad@nedbank.co.za

Aum

Rajan

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 Oct 2009, 13:10

Rajan - it is in HTML format not Excel - so please post the details here itself.

raghavt · Post by **raghavt** » 02 Oct 2009, 18:29

Hi suneeth.krishnan - I'm also based @ Bangalore. Why don't you send me a message to my email so that we can have an informal introduction. This wil ensure that the subject of the thread remains unaltered.

Rajan Sir - I am waiting for that XCEL sheet. ~ Raghav.

ambika.sundaram · Post by **ambika.sundaram** » 05 Oct 2009, 10:45

I would go with @suneeth.krishnan. Itz true that Surendran Sir was desciple of Velukkutty Sir for many years. Later he was sent to PMI. May be he got classes from PMI, but mainly he was trained by TRR only.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 06 Oct 2009, 03:14

mohan,

I looked at a variety of visualization tools. Here are three representative ones for your consideration:

Network Diagram from Many Eyes is easy to use, and the resulting graph is stored online by Many Eyes, which can be convenient; but the automatically generated graph is poorly formatted and much tweaking is necessary to get the results you might like. (When you add to the data, the tweaking needs to be done over again.)
Cytoscape is a fantastic tool for all kinds of biology visualizations. For a simple social network like this one, it may be overkill, but it's a good program and produces decent graphs automatically. You can also edit the graph in some detail for taste. The output is a variety of graphics formats such as PNG (a tip: enlarge the graph greatly when you export to PNG; the image will then be nicely readable on small monitors).
Graphviz is very good and is specifically meant for this sort of graph. It is a bit harder to use and set up, though.

These are all open source or otherwise free for non-commercial use. There are few commercial tools out there mostly for org charts and so on. I don't see them as particularly good.

So if it were me, which one would I use? I'd probably go with Cytoscape and play with it for a while until I got a view I liked. But the job's not as simple as I hoped it would be, and you might certainly decide not to go there at all.

(Just to be clear: terrific data, wonderful service. Thanks awfully.)

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 06 Oct 2009, 05:49

gn thanks a lot for the research into visualisation tools - I looked at cytoscope and it looks very complicated and graphviz is hard too.

I tried to do it in Visio using the Org chart set up but it is not allowing me to to do mutliple links (where one person has studied under several gurus). I probably have to use the standard flowchart mode.
It is very time intensive to convert the tree so I will leave this project for a while until I have spare time to do it.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 06 Oct 2009, 09:45

mohan, yes, I think the time required is definitely too much for the incremental formatting benefit. (Perhaps someone else on the forum knows a better tool? I'll continue to look into these and if I can find something that's quick and effective, I'll let you know.)

lswaminathan · Post by **lswaminathan** » 11 Oct 2009, 00:05

Mohan:

Please add Dr. P. K. Swaminathan (USA) to Sri Umayalpuram K. Sivaraman's disciples list. Sri UKS came to USA exclusively to teach Swaminathan on several visits of over 2 months each between April 1999 and April 2001. Of course, realizing his young daughter Rajna's potential, took her under his wing as well.

Swaminathan runs Rhythm Fantasies, Inc. (the name chosen by Sri UKS himself) promoting South Indian music to the western audience. Under this, he runs the Sri Umayalpuram K. Sivaraman School of Mrudangam with lessons developed by Sri UKS.

Swaminathan has created a special english notation for the lessons, which is also used by Sri UKS's sishyas in Chennai, especially for Swaminathan's students who go there for intensive training.

Swaminathan performs only in USA.

Thanks

Lalitha Swaminathan

kishore.rajan · Post by **kishore.rajan** » 12 Oct 2009, 18:09

Trikkakkara Y N Santharam (Kanchira Maestro), and Trivandrum Balasubramoniam are desciples of Prof. Mavelikkara Velukkutty Nair.

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 14 Oct 2009, 14:34

Dear Shri Mohan,

Not intentionally, but I forgot to include some names. Please add.

Umayalpuram S.Swaminathan
R.Ragunath [Banglore]
R. Arun [Toronto].

Erode Nagaraj.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Oct 2009, 16:16

To ls, kr and en - thanks I have updated with the information provided

kishore.rajan · Post by **kishore.rajan** » 16 Oct 2009, 10:38

@mohan - It seems the one I had suggested is not updated yet.

"Trikkakkara Y N Santharam (Kanchira Maestro), and Trivandrum Balasubramoniam are desciples of Prof. Mavelikkara Velukkutty Nair"

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 16 Oct 2009, 10:42

kishore they are there. Try reloading the page - Ctrl-F5 in Internet Explorer.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 27 Oct 2009, 12:39

Trikkakkara Y N Santharam, Maestro ??? --> This brings us to the question of qualities of a maestro .. will u please explain sir ?

Mannarkoil J.Balaji

kishore.rajan · Post by **kishore.rajan** » 29 Oct 2009, 06:38

@mridhangam - let me first understand the criteria you are putting to be required as qualities of a maestro.

There are artists with extra-ordinary knowledge in the domain, but have not that much shined as a performer. Also, there are others who are extra-ordinary performers, who have little knowledge in the subject. You tell me, who among this is a Maestro.

People are having different views.

Santharam is an A grade artist in AIR. Let me understand the reasons you are putting forward to substantiate your view-point of not considering Santharam as a Maestro.

Btb, are you the Mannarkoil Balaji, who plays Mridangam ?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Oct 2009, 16:39

Could this conversation be split off into a separate thread?

I suggest that this is one of those threads best kept to the business of its title.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 29 Oct 2009, 22:52

Mohan
Pl include Lakshman Mahadevan -disciple of TR Rajamani

http://ramanlakshman.com/lakshman.aspx

chandru2008 · Post by **chandru2008** » 30 Oct 2009, 09:56

Dear Shri Mohan

Excellent work ! Please add Bhairav Chandrashekar- Princeton, NJ - to Shri Umayalpuram K Sivaraman Disciple list. Bhairav also happens to be Shri UKS Grand Nephew and plays annually at the Umayalpuram Rama Mandiram - Seetha Rama kalayanam.

Thank you,

chandru2008 · Post by **chandru2008** » 30 Oct 2009, 10:03

Dear Shri Mohan,

Forgot to mention Bhairav Chandrasehkar plays in Chennai during the season.
Thank you,

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 30 Oct 2009, 10:39

kishore.rajan wrote:@mridhangam - let me first understand the criteria you are putting to be required as qualities of a maestro.

Member krishiore.rajan you have only said Shri.Shantaram is a maestro and it is upto you to prove it. The onus is on u to substantiate.

kishore.rajan wrote:Santharam is an A grade artist in AIR.

can we consider all A grade artistes as maestros ?

kishore.rajan wrote: Btb, are you the Mannarkoil Balaji, who plays Mridangam ?

I am Mannarkoil Balaji.

Shri . Kishore Rajan

I am in no way trying to provoke you or anyone through this forum by starting this issue. I am just trying to understand a few things pointed out by you-especially the word maestro. In a public forum like this we have to be very careful with our words when we call someone a great vidwan or bash someone as pedestrian.

Going by your argument if Shri Santaram can be termed a Maestro how will u address Palghat Mani Iyer, Palani Subramania Pillai and a host of other living senior vidwans we have amidst us ? This is specifically why i asked you the criteria for spelling out a person a maestro. More over i have no grudge or no personal displeasure about any artiste in this field including Shri Shantaram. (In fact Shri Shantaram and i have shared stage quite a few times and i have high regard for his music is an entirely different matter). He may be related to you or he may be your guru or he may be none of the above to you and which is immaterial to me. I have highest regards for all the artistes in this field. My only contention is anyone and everyone cannot be termed something and gotten away without being noticed. Some persons write and some just ignore. I just want to put things in place and proper perspective.

Mannarkoil J Balaji

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Oct 2009, 14:47

I agree entirely about the general spattering of words such as "vidwan" and "maestro" --- if applied to all, or even many, then what words do we have left for those at the top of the tree, past and present? For some, however, it is their feeling that it is a way of giving respect, or it is their personal opinion, to which, I suppose, they are entitled.

As to the words themselves; to my mind, maestro implies an extraordinary physical command. It takes a maestro to play something in a dozen different speeds; it takes a maestro to play different things, bowing and plucking, on a violin, both at the same time. The particular musican I have in mind does not, necessarily, woo me with his music, but seldom fails to leave me open-mouthed at his virtuosity.

(I still think we should discuss this in a different thread!)