Is there a theory of aesthetics for CM?

[thenpaanan]

I have always wondered if there is a well-developed theory of aesthetics in CM. All Indian classical dance theory claims allegiance to Bharata's navarasa theory of the nine "rasas" or emotions. Is there a similar theory for CM? In some places I have heard musicians also refer to the navarasa theory for music but only in a vague sense. To put the question more concretely, is there a theory that discusses the need or ability to project different kinds of emotions in CM and is such a theory followed in practice? For example, in some old books such as Subba Rao's Raganidhi there is mention of the emotions that certain CM ragas are suited for but I cannot find evidence that composers or performers pay much attention to these suggestions, except for the rare case.

-Then Paanan

[keerthi]

I think you have brought up a very interesting topic, thenpaanan,

There is a need for an organised and well-articulated discourse about aesthetics in carnatic music.

It may help to borrow principles and terminology from the critical theories used in the appraisal and interpretation of classical arts like literature, western classical music, art and architecture.

I believe some material may be found in the Indian treatises that concern themselves with cognition-perception-experience/awareness/aesthetics and memory; like say the pratyabhignya school of kaishmiri shaivism.

People who study music or musicology in Universities abroad, have a very useful course called Music appreciation; which probably covers the principles of music and music analysis/ interpretation.

[Sreeni Rajarao]

Keerthi,

I hope to be able to connect you with one of my friends in Bangalore who has worked on this aspect.

Also, I have attended a lec-dem by Sri. Karaikudi Subramaniam (of Brhadhwani organization) about 2 - 3 years back here in Detroit when he addressed the same topic. Hopefully, I still have some notes from that event. I will let you know.

Sreeni Rajarao

[vasanthakokilam]

Regarding aesthetics of music ( rasa ), film music directors are quite an expert at this when they score the background music for the scenes. The sound that accompanies a scene needs to be an appropriate one. Since the scenes depict a whole variety of human emotions ( an order of magnitude more than what most lyrical classical compositions capture ), we can relate directly to what kind of music ( ragas being a subset of them ) goes with what human emotions and interactions. Granted, a good bunch of them are trite and tripe, but there is so much out there over the period of 70+ years ( even longer if you include movies from the west ) that even a small subset provides a wealth of information.

There is also immense research potential to contrast how different cultures perceive this music to rasa association by looking at that background music of films from various countries. It looks like there are some globally applicable mappings of music to rasa. Most people will relate to sad music or happy music no matter what film they are watching ( Hollywood, Indian, French, Thai....), and then a lot that are very culturally specific. With in India, no matter what language, we probably share a bigger set of such mappings which a westerner may not immediately relate to.

Among modern popular music directors, Ilayaraja in India and John Williams in the west had done a lot to set the bar high for such aesthetics. At subtler levels, Malayalam film background score has a wealth of info that is more rooted in ragas. Ilayaraja's immense contribution is in his folkish and classical combined idioms and come up with some unique musical expressions to correspond to human experiences. Next time you watch a Ilayaraja movie or a good malayalam movie, pay specific attention to the background music.

Also, we should not forget layam. The rhythm carries a bulk load of the rasa. That is an entirely another dimensions to the full rasa picture.

[mohan]

As Keerti has mentioned the ancient Indian treatises articulate aesthetics eg Bharata's Natyasastra.

Rasa theory has carried forward from these into dance and Hindustani music but, whilst prevalent, is not closely observed in Carnatic music. Rasa can be deifined via its culinary origins as taste or flavour and in music, this equates to the flavour or mood that a particular raga generates.

However, as far as aesthetics is concerned, other aspects come into play such as bhakti, bhAvam, sukham, etc. Some of these are very hard to quantify or rate.

Also, the gauge of what is aesthetic is constantly changing as audiences change and indeed the world changes. What was considered as aesthetic 50 years ago may not be the considered so today.

[Sangeet Rasik]

To put the question more concretely, is there a theory that discusses the need or ability to project different kinds of emotions in CM and is such a theory followed in practice?

The essentials of aesthetics in Indian classical music (Hindustani or Carnatic) are the same. Less followed in Carnatic music because of the preoccupation with religious themes, as well as the modern tendency for using a large number of "new ragas" or "rare ragas" of dubious aesthetic value. But the core Carnatic ragas are aesthetically strong. Some practical differences exist - for example, Hindustani ragas tend to be more emotion-specific, whereas core Carnatic ragas tend to express different types of emotions within the same raga. If one is interested in putting Carnatic music on a firmer aesthetic foundation, it is best - in my opinion - to merge naturally with the aesthetics of Hindustani music and create a more unified Indian classical music. In unity there is strength.

SR

[mohan]

modern tendency for using a large number of "new ragas" or "rare ragas" of dubious aesthetic value.

I can't agree with this. Aesthetics are subjective and one's aesthetic sense is built through prior listening and perception. Some people can't appreciate rare or new ragas because they are not familiar with them, not because they do not contain aesthetic value.

[Sangeet Rasik]

I can't agree with this. Aesthetics are subjective and one's aesthetic sense is built through prior listening and perception. Some people can't appreciate rare or new ragas because they are not familiar with them, not because they do not contain aesthetic value.

I was not making a blanket statement on all "new" ragas. Each has to be looked at individually. Agreed shravana-manana-nididhyasana is a must before making statements like "dubious aesthetic value".

Aesthetics is not purely subjective - otherwise an aesthetic framework/theory is not possible. Even in the Sangitaratnakara of Sharangadeva (Chapter 2, Section 2) there is a clear (though elementary) attempt to define ragas not only by "scale" but also by the embellishments/"grammatical rules"/phrases that characterize them. The Sangitaratnakara also states the main rasas conveyed by the raga. Of course, there is no discussion as to *why* a particular raga triggers a particular rasa. That is the subjective part based on continued listening and perception which ultimately results in accepted tradition. These values of the Sangitaratnakara have been developed very intricately in Hindustani music over the centuries, and also exist in the core ragas of Carnatic music.

The Brhaddesi of Matanga is also an important work that perhaps gives a clue as to how old ragas have emerged - through folk music and other similar sources which emphasize creation of music driven by emotions. At other times, ragas have been "created" in a more intellectual way and done very well.

One must take some of the so-called "rare ragas" and look at them in the context of these values - perhaps answers will emerge regarding what value they add with respect to what is already existing. That effort has to be made. In Hindustani music the number of actual ragas in use is much more limited than in Carnatic - the need is not felt to maintain a high "raga-diversity" for its own sake. I am sure musicians and scholars in all of India have been tinkering with "new" ragas for centuries, so there is likely a good reason why "rare" ragas remain rare.

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

I agree that not all 'invented/discovered' ragas need to make the cut. Each has to be looked at individually and the sieve has to be quite small.

so there is likely a good reason why "rare" ragas remain rare.

Implication noted. Consider this possibility, at least for some of them. There is a "long tail" in the histogram for anything when large numbers are considered and some of these rare ragams may belong there. That does not mean they inherently are poor at something, it is just that it appeals to a relatively small number of people. Just as until the past decade, advertising to the long-tail section of the population was not economically feasible until internet advertising came about, a similar dynamic exists for most things that are stuck in that long-tail portion of the curve. There is the usual boot-strapping problem. In CM, compositions of great vaggeyakaras have provided the necessary boot-strap mechanism for some ragas.

[Sangeet Rasik]

Consider this possibility, at least for some of them.

No doubt, this is a valid possibility. I guess what I am saying (and I am not the first to say it by any means) is that there is a rich field of aesthetically refined ragas already existing in India due to the efforts of both our classical music systems - and only a minority of them have been treated in detail in the Carnatic system (and similarly, only few Carnatic ragas have been treated in Hindustani). So it seems that a productive path will result from accessing and incorporating these ragas in both systems. Doing so will also require, and result in, a deeper integration of the two music systems so that it will become unnecessary to differentiate them at a fundamental level. This will perhaps serve a higher purpose than taking the "new/rare ragas" path.

It is not as if these "rare" ragas will be somehow "erased". They are still out there and available for development - and as you said, if someone successfully bootstraps some of them, then all the better. The "theory of aesthetics" inquired after by the original poster can provide the guidelines for doing this, and is more strongly developed in HM. But after 3 millenia of development of Indian classical music, the window is rather narrow. I believe the most important things we can do at this time are: (1) increase the thematic scope of CM beyond the religious, and (2) better integrate the "two" music systems. There is much creative potential in these avenues.

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks SR. Understood.

Back to the rasa theory itself, can we take an attempt to slice and dice it to the following?

Let us consider the four quadrants. Low Pa - Sa, Sa - Ma, Pa -Sa` and Sa` to high Pa. Let us restrict ourselves for now to the second and third quadrant and also restrict ourselves to phrases that stay within those quadrants.

Now, I think most of us feel that M1 and M2 evoke quite a different set of feelings. M1 providing neutral to more upbeat emotions and M2 proving for a more sedate mood.

In the second quadrant, we have four swaras ( R1, R2, G2, G3 ) and four non-vivadhi combinations: R1-G2, R1-G3, R2-G2 and R2-G3
In the third quadrant, we have four swaras ( D1, D2, N2, N3 ) and these four non-vivadhi combinations: D1-N2, D1-N3, D2-N2 and D2-N3

First a subjective question:

Can we all pitch in regarding what rasas those 8 swaras and 8 combinations invoke for you all? If you do not not want to think about swaras directly first, think about ragas and the emotions they invoke and then look up what swaras they use. Consider many ragas that create same and different emotions for you and then try to map it to the swaras. We can take bits and pieces of such subjective opinion as well. It does not have to be comprehensive or exhaustive. Personally for me, G2 and G3 definitely provide different moods. Same with R1 and R2. I would say R1 and G2 are more on the reflective and sedate side where as the moods that R2 and G3 creates belong to more upbeat ones. A gamaka laden G2 also produce more sensuous and romantic sounds. Though I say this, ragas like Sahana are exceptions where its gamakas transform the overall mood so much.

Now, questions to ponder:

1) Can types of rasas be assigned to these 8 individual swaras and 8 combinations?
2) Are the second quadrant and third quadrant combinations symmetrical? i.e Is the rasa of R1-G2 and D1-N2 pretty much the same except for the higher frequency the third quadrant occupies.
3) On top of these base rasa assignment, do different kinds of gamakas while executing the combination provides for rasa enhancement?
4) Is item 3 a rasa enhancement or what we get out of item 3 is the primary rasa determinant?
5) Do we need a minimum of two notes to define a rasa or just one note by itself or one note with or without a gamaka can evoke a rasa?
6) What is the effect of the duration of a note on the rasa?

7) Does Sangitaratnakara take a similar approach in its methodology? Can the concepts there be roped in to understand all this?
8 ) Do we really need to go strictly by classical texts? Are there modern methods available to understand this better to the extent a non-subjective analysis is possible?

I am listing the above just to get things started. I realize that higher level combinations can produce different rasas but I am limiting it to these 8 so we can chew on this without overwhelming ourselves.

Also, I may be reinventing the wheel here, either what is covered in classical texts or what has been developed in CM/HM. Even if so, most of our discussions are of that type anyway so do not hold that against me At the minimum, our own subjective evaluations of rasas will give us an opportunity to compare notes.

[Sangeet Rasik]

VK,

1) Can types of rasas be assigned to these 8 individual swaras and 8 combinations?

No. Firstly, individual svaras have no meaning in Indian classical music (ICM) unless the base svara (say "shadja") is defined. Hence, the basic unit is two, never one. A fundamental aesthetic principle of ICM is that two svaras on their own are insufficient to portray any type of "refined" rasa. One needs larger "molecules" in order to effectively convey rasa in the "classical" sense. Overall, a coherent, "higher" rasa experience cannot be obtained with fewer than four or five swaras.

2) Are the second quadrant and third quadrant combinations symmetrical? i.e Is the rasa of R1-G2 and D1-N2 pretty much the same except for the higher frequency the third quadrant occupies.

Irrelevant, see answer to #1.

3) On top of these base rasa assignment, do different kinds of gamakas while executing the combination provides for rasa enhancement?

Yes, but gamaka is irrelevant without raga. Simply singing R-G or D-N with different kinds of gamakas creates no aesthetic experience greater than that of the animal kingdom. Even birds and monkeys have "gamakas" in their sound production. One does not need Indian classical music to produce that level of rasa.

4) Is item 3 a rasa enhancement or what we get out of item 3 is the primary rasa determinant?

Neither by itself. Several requirements must be met before aesthetic coherence in ICM can be achieved. It is the overall picture of the raga that creates enjoyment in its parts, as much as the individual parts make up the raga . This is another basic principle of ICM. The G-R gamaka in Shahana or Dvijavanti has by itself little value without the overall cognition of the raga. This principle is embodied in such constructs as raga-ragini, or the development of iconography accompanying each raga.

5) Do we need a minimum of two notes to define a rasa or just one note by itself or one note with or without a gamaka can evoke a rasa?

One needs more. See above.

6) What is the effect of the duration of a note on the rasa?

Too general a question. Depends on all the other factors. They cannot be decomposed to the extent that you suggest. The basic aesthetically coherent unit is a 4 or 5-svara "scale" which is a minimal raga. Folk tunes and music of relatively primitive cultures (e.g., China, Japan, East Asia, Africa) rarely go beyond this minimalism. The high refinement of "rasa" is present only in Indian classical music and European classical music.

7) Does Sangitaratnakara take a similar approach in its methodology? Can the concepts there be roped in to understand all this?

Sangitaratnakara is a late work in the overall development of ICM. Most of the earlier works are lost. By Sharangadeva's time, it was very well known that the raga is the basic aesthetic form. He simply states the aesthetic traditions, and does not derive them.

8 ) Do we really need to go strictly by classical texts? Are there modern methods available to understand this better to the extent a non-subjective analysis is possible?

Depends on what you are trying to analyze. If you are trying to get at the relationship between certain swara-combinations and emotions, then I am afraid this may prove a waste of time. It is subjective and essentially reflects the ancient Indian mind and its evolution under a myriad of influences. The thing worth doing is to preserve these subjective traditions. Deconstructing them further is futile - a purely academic endeavor without tangible benefit or hope of enlightenment. On the other hand if you are trying to understand the creation of new ragas and emotional experiences by combinations, recombinations, and alterations of existing ragas, then there is plenty of interesting lines to trace in the development of both HM and CM.

SR

[keerthi]

regarding your first question, I have a vague memory of reading some highly dubious account of the nature/traits of each swara, using terminology from human behaviour,('r1 is of serious ponderous nature; while G2 expresses a range of several moods - flighty, sensuous or melancholy'... something to that effect).

i don't feel that individual notes can invoke any rasa/ emotion; and even our interpretation of certain note patterns as being associated with certain feelings, (I think)is a conditioned response.
This is open for verification/ falsification through experiment.


could it be that rasa-niSpatti - the emergence of rasa is due to the interaction of the various sruti(swara)sequences, the laya cyclic that is discernable; and at another remote nonetheless extant level due to the lyric..?

I gathered some very astute observations from Sri Akella-garu, about the difference between note-based handling of a rAga and phrase-based handling.

his illustration of note-based singing is not the scampering-up-and-down-the-scale unimaginative singing that we sometimes encounter.. it was a highly creative exposition, which employed jAru-s effectively and eschewed too much of the kampita-AndOlita. Also his singing was totally free of any of the stock/ standard/ cliched phrases of the rAga he sang (- suddha dhanyAsi in this case); and truly exemplified the spirit of Indian classical music.

it was chaste Suddha DhanyAsi, but had almost none of the commonly heard movements. even if they were sung, they were sung differently. I think he came close to the ideal that SR aspires for us to attain - singing that almost but not quite transcends idiom.

i have seen similar treatment in the hands of Voleti Venkateswarulu.


#6. gamakas, can be used to good effect by varying the following parameters -

frequency - Repetition of the same gamaka.
Magnitude i.e. degree of oscillation or slide depending on whether it is a jAru or kampita.
Amplitude - using volume modulation, to effect variety.
duration - this arises out of one's cultivated sense of proportion(pramAna) and suitability (aucitya) and even incongruously drawn out gamakas have been made aesthetic, by dint of the performers craft and aesthetic vision.

the trouble is that all the above, more or less, apply for all elements of raga singing - like swara-s or sancara-s (motifs). Variations of swara-s or sancAra-s or gamaka-s vis-a-vis the above parameters all make for good music.

But to map out specific motifs and the corresponding rasa - is as challenging as the Human genome project, where a one-to-one correlation between genes, and the protein they/ produces/ function was made.

[vasanthakokilam]

Fantastic SR and Keerthi. A lot of good gyan to reflect on... Just a couple of points for now.. I realize this is not a short term topic and hopefully we can continue this very productively...Hope the direction this will take agrees with what the OP thenpaanan intended.

On the other hand if you are trying to understand the creation of new ragas and emotional experiences by combinations, recombinations, and alterations of existing ragas, then there is plenty of interesting lines to trace in the development of both HM and CM.

But to map out specific motifs and the corresponding rasa - is as challenging as the Human genome project, where a one-to-one correlation between genes, and the protein they/ produces/ function was made.

These two points clarify what I was thinking. You have stated them much more concretely.

By Sharangadeva's time, it was very well known that the raga is the basic aesthetic form.

Is it at the raga level or the ragAnga level? My idea was at the latter level hence my stipulation of quadrants. The second and third quadrant are basically the pUrvAngA and uttarAngA. I realize that there is useful stuff when the quadrants are combined/overlapped. But to start with, are there ragas whose rasas are ( more or less predominantly ) determined by characteristics of each of the two quadrants. If so, then I can at least theoretically see where the two note combinations and their gamakas are the prime determinant of the rasa of that anga. ( Assuming S and M provide the anchors, though that may be faulty thinking ). If two note ones are too small as SR says, may be we can just go to the 4 notes by bringing in both S and M1 for purvanga and P and S for uttaranga. But it does not explode the number of combinations. I thought HM analysis of raga families are based on such rasa assignments to angas with a restriction that the rasas of the two angas of a raga should not be very dissimilar ( whereas CM allows that thereby producing multiple rasas for a single raga ).

We can definitely find exceptions to the above way of bottom up thinking but I am curious if there are at least some classes of ragas that lend itself to such restrictive rasa analysis within the angAs.

[thenpaanan]

...

I gathered some very astute observations from Sri Akella-garu, about the difference between note-based handling of a rAga and phrase-based handling.

his illustration of note-based singing is not the scampering-up-and-down-the-scale unimaginative singing that we sometimes encounter.. it was a highly creative exposition, which employed jAru-s effectively and eschewed too much of the kampita-AndOlita. Also his singing was totally free of any of the stock/ standard/ cliched phrases of the rAga he sang (- suddha dhanyAsi in this case); and truly exemplified the spirit of Indian classical music.

it was chaste Suddha DhanyAsi, but had almost none of the commonly heard movements. even if they were sung, they were sung differently. I think he came close to the ideal that SR aspires for us to attain - singing that almost but not quite transcends idiom.
...
.

Independent of the question of aesthetic theory, I am convinced that the ability to sing a raga alapana well without using cliches is a true sign of "vidwat" (loosely, scholarship). And in my listening experience, only some of our well-known artists seem to have held on to this notion of vidwat in performance, notably, GNB, Ramnad Krishnan, SKR, etc. (This is not to say that the other big artists had less vidwat, they hewed to different concepts of good scholarship/performance, which is a good thing, IMHO. Let a thousand flowers bloom, as they say.)

Now I am completely beset with curiosity. Keerthi, is this demonstration by Sharmagaru available online somewhere? I am very impressed in general with those who can achieve freedom from cliches, but to do this with Suddha Dhanyasi, a raga that has been quite scale-driven in my imagination, is quite something.

-Then Paanan

[Sangeet Rasik]

Thenpaanan and Keerthi,

Independent of the question of aesthetic theory, I am convinced that the ability to sing a raga alapana well without using cliches is a true sign of "vidwat" (loosely, scholarship).

Yes to a good extent. Kumar Gandharva is an excellent example in HM. In CM, KJ Yesudas is excellent in this regard - the ability to present well-known ragas in a new light in a small amount of time (e.g. the arabhi alapana prefacing "pahi parvatanandini" or the mohanam alapana prefacing "karunakari" are pure genius in my opinion). He brought out these "old" ragas very well with no "cliches" and with a far superior voice culture to anything we have seen in CM. Unfortunately this "vidwat" has been squandered by him.

SR

[thenpaanan]

Thenpaanan and Keerthi,

Yes to a good extent. Kumar Gandharva is an excellent example in HM. In CM, KJ Yesudas is excellent in this regard - the ability to present well-known ragas in a new light in a small amount of time (e.g. the arabhi alapana prefacing "pahi parvatanandini" or the mohanam alapana prefacing "karunakari" are pure genius in my opinion). He brought out these "old" ragas very well with no "cliches" and with a far superior voice culture to anything we have seen in CM. Unfortunately this "vidwat" has been squandered by him.

SR

In what way would you say that KJY has squandered his vidwat?

-Then Paanan

[VK RAMAN]

Comments - "Unfortunately this "vidwat" has been squandered by him" - needs more supporting data

[Sangeet Rasik]

In what way would you say that KJY has squandered his vidwat

Singing the "same old" limited set of compositions all the time, and getting too scattered in different types of genres. No doubt that his foray into Hindi and Malayalam playback singing produced some excellent work (which I listen to much more often than I do Carnatic music), but the depth of classical singing started to erode. Became more confined to singing relatively uninteresting kritis in a medium-fast tempo. Consistently fails to do a good job with Dikshitar kritis these days, whereas "back in the day" he handled scholarly kritis like "vatapiganapatim" and "siddhivinayakam" outstandingly. The other day I listened to his singing of "shrisatyanarayanam upasmahe" - absolutely disappointing. Not that he is incapable of slower, raga-rich, and meaningful renditions...I also recently listened to his interpretation of Andal's "ambarame" in Kanada in a vilamba kala format, indeed a brilliant rendition that is more aesthetically pleasing than the Kalyani version followed by the Ariyakudi adherents.

I hope nobody reading this gets the wrong impression - I count myself as one of KJY's most avid connoisseurs in general. A class act overall. Apart from all his other outstanding musical qualities, one especially good thing is his complete avoidance of gesticulations, odd on-stage habits, and horrendous facial contortions that we see in CM almost universally these days.

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

Independent of the question of aesthetic theory, I am convinced that the ability to sing a raga alapana well without using cliches is a true sign of "vidwat" (loosely, scholarship). And in my listening experience, only some of our well-known artists seem to have held on to this notion of vidwat in performance, notably, GNB, Ramnad Krishnan, SKR, etc.

Is it the method of singing and the voice timbre that gives us this non-cliche alapana or some unique phrases and pidi or something else? Also, would such an artist keep creating such non-cliche alapanas or there will be a lot of overlap among the various concerts. May be it is not amenable to such analytical understanding but if any of you have some ideas around it, that will be useful.

[keerthi]

Is it the method of singing and the voice timbre that gives us this non-cliche alapana or some unique phrases and pidi or something else? Also, would such an artist keep creating such non-cliche alapanas or there will be a lot of overlap among the various concerts. May be it is not amenable to such analytical understanding but if any of you have some ideas around it, that will be useful.

As you rightly say, the phenomenon doesn't lend itself too well to analysis; but it is possible to understand it by taking case studies -

VoleTi's usp lay in singing long phrases that went back and forth in a tantalising sleight-of-larynx act. Also, he sang the swara-s of a rAga, not just with the gamaka-s normally associated with that note in that rAga, but by investing jaru-s and orikkai/ odukkal-s that normally aren't used so much..

As a result, one heard phrases in his singing, that in swara notation would look commonplace, but in gamaka notation would probably seem novel.

Like a good piece of writing, can be good because of a clever plot, good penmanship, some intelligent play of words or an interesting combination of all these, in varying proportions; a good rAga treatment could arise out of creative pidis, multi-speed passages (depending on vocal felicity) or even a new approach to the rAga each time - based on nyAsa notes etc.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks keerthi. Your analogy to writing is quite relatable. It is quite amazing how musicians have the ability to translate their thoughts and feelings into such elaborations within that raga motif. Even if the space allowed is as narrow as a balance beam, some musicians can do a lot of things within that space without falling off the beam.

[thenpaanan]

Singing the "same old" limited set of compositions all the time, and getting too scattered in different types of genres. No doubt that his foray into Hindi and Malayalam playback singing produced some excellent work (which I listen to much more often than I do Carnatic music), but the depth of classical singing started to erode. Became more confined to singing relatively uninteresting kritis in a medium-fast tempo. Consistently fails to do a good job with Dikshitar kritis these days, whereas "back in the day" he handled scholarly kritis like "vatapiganapatim" and "siddhivinayakam" outstandingly. The other day I listened to his singing of "shrisatyanarayanam upasmahe" - absolutely disappointing. Not that he is incapable of slower, raga-rich, and meaningful renditions...I also recently listened to his interpretation of Andal's "ambarame" in Kanada in a vilamba kala format, indeed a brilliant rendition that is more aesthetically pleasing than the Kalyani version followed by the Ariyakudi adherents.

I hope nobody reading this gets the wrong impression - I count myself as one of KJY's most avid connoisseurs in general. A class act overall. Apart from all his other outstanding musical qualities, one especially good thing is his complete avoidance of gesticulations, odd on-stage habits, and horrendous facial contortions that we see in CM almost universally these days.

SR

I have not listened to Yesudas in a long time now but his early work in CM was quite promising. I have never actually listened to him dwell on a vilamba kala kriti, all the stuff that I have heard from him has been fast or medium tempo. Even his ksheerasAgara shayana started sedately but picked up speed as he inserted brigas everywhere he could. The problem with having a strong yet nimble voice (as younger artists like Sriram Gangadhar are no doubt discovering) is that there is a thin line between brilliant and wild. But considering everything, one could do worse than have this problem.

As for KJY spreading himself across genres, I would like to think that it is both good and bad. The good part of being a film singer (I hope!) is that you learn to hold a steady voice that does not waver from the sruti, which seems to be a often found problem in CM. Indeed I have wondered how film singers manage to stay in sruti in live performances without a tambura even when there does not seem to be enough support sruti-wise (or too much din) from the accompanying instruments.

But vidwat is part talent and part attitude. I suspect that KJY was not looking to be an avant garde Carnatic musician and push the boundaries, his being a regular concert artist of CM alone was avant garde enough in the given social context. So he perhaps was content to deliver what would be considered his standard fare, which by all accounts was and is still popular. If what you say about his recent singing is true on a regular basis, it would indeed be a waste of a significant talent. Perhaps it is age or perhaps it is simply that he does not need to prove anything any more so the eagerness to excel may be off a little bit.

But then the truism about vidwat (as articulated so well by the late PNK in a different thread) is that vidwat is uncommon.

-Then Paanan

[thenpaanan]

Fantastic SR and Keerthi. A lot of good gyan to reflect on... Just a couple of points for now.. I realize this is not a short term topic and hopefully we can continue this very productively...Hope the direction this will take agrees with what the OP thenpaanan intended.

When I posted the question originally I was thinking of something other than what was in the responses. But, so what?

Regardless, I am enjoying the conversation hugely (which seems to have died down a bit now).

-Then Paanan

[thenpaanan]

When I posted the question originally I was thinking of something other than what was in the responses. But, so what?

Regardless, I am enjoying the conversation hugely (which seems to have died down a bit now).

-Then Paanan

To revive the very interesting discussion here let me propose a set of questions that are related to the topic but take it in a different direction.

1. I know there are many composers on this forum, some known and some hidden. To them I have this question: if you were composing a new song do you try to match the melody to the meaning of the lyric and if so what are your guidelines?

2. To the many rasikas out there: do you feel that, in CM, the melody always matches the lyrical content? If you think yes, then can you point out the pattern (i.e. what sort of tune matches what sort of lyrical content) and provide examples of two or more different songs where that pattern is observable?

3. Finally, here is some food for thought. In the famous Swati Tirunal piece, "bhAvayAmi raghurAmam" in the charanam that is sung in mohanam today

patagavarajaTaayunootam | panchavaTeevihitaavaasam ||
atighOraSoorppaNakhaavaSan- | aagatakaraadiharam ||

the first of the two lines above describes an idyllic scene of Rama, Sita, Lakshmana in 'panchavati" and the second describes the "exceedingly horrific" shUrpanakhA among other things. Do you feel that the melody actually portrays this 180 degree turn in emotion in the lyrics? Alternately do you think that anyone who actually sings it today portrays it accurately to you?

-Then Paanan

P.S. I had trouble selecting the right word -- I use "lyrical content" above as a placeholder for "lyrical emotion" or "rasa" -- substitute with whatever term suitably expresses that aspect of aesthetics -- namely the binding together of all dimensions of performance of a given art form.

[Sangeet Rasik]

To revive the very interesting discussion here let me propose a set of questions that are related to the topic but take it in a different direction.

Sorry for the break in the conversation - yes, it has become quite interesting. To continue -

1. I know there are many composers on this forum, some known and some hidden. To them I have this question: if you were composing a new song do you try to match the melody to the meaning of the lyric and if so what are your guidelines?

You are asking for "trade secrets" here! All that I will say - speaking only for myself - is that the product should be an "integrated whole". The rest is all "maya" or "indrajalam". But we can discuss the opposite kind of composition, i.e. the "nEti nEti" aspects. The art of building "integrated compositions" in CM pretty much rose and died with M. Dikshitar. Reviving it in the present day will take time and patience.

2. To the many rasikas out there: do you feel that, in CM, the melody always matches the lyrical content? If you think yes, then can you point out the pattern (i.e. what sort of tune matches what sort of lyrical content) and provide examples of two or more different songs where that pattern is observable?

Well, I am not sure there is really enough data to answer this question. CM in some ways lacks the maturity to provide the answers. The overwhelming number of compositions are "bhakti-based", so there is a certain "sameness" about the vast majority of compositions. Pretty much any raga can eventually be extrapolated to create a "devotional" atmosphere which overrides the other rasas.

patagavarajaTaayunootam | panchavaTeevihitaavaasam ||
atighOraSoorppaNakhaavaSan- | aagatakaraadiharam ||

the first of the two lines above describes an idyllic scene of Rama, Sita, Lakshmana in 'panchavati" and the second describes the "exceedingly horrific" shUrpanakhA among other things. Do you feel that the melody actually portrays this 180 degree turn in emotion in the lyrics? Alternately do you think that anyone who actually sings it today portrays it accurately to you?

I find it very interesting that you chose this example, which I have thought about in the past as well. Unfortunately, I think this is a rather poorly tuned (from the aesthetic point of view) composition, although the music by itself is good. Mohanam was not a wise choice for this charanam.

Only the composer can do justice to his/her own composition in all respects, which arise from "deep within" and are influenced by their mindset, cultural background, upbringing, age, experiences, way of life, etc. In this case there is a mismatch between the tuner and the lyricist.

While these views may not seem "progressive" to some, for me the best way to enjoy "bhavayami raghuramam" is to either appreciate the poetry or the music. The two do not go well together. But compare "shri vishwanatham bhajeham" by MD - every raga and charanam are fully integrated into a coherent experience. I will never forget the time when I first stepped on Himalayan territory and smelled the pine forests - "citsabheshvaram sharangadharam darukavanatapodhanakalpitasharangadharam" was resonating in my mind at the time - not just the words but the music, all together.

SR

[sureshvv]

Well, I am not sure there is really enough data to answer this question. CM in some ways lacks the maturity to provide the answers. The overwhelming number of compositions are "bhakti-based", so there is a certain "sameness" about the vast majority of compositions. Pretty much any raga can eventually be extrapolated to create a "devotional" atmosphere which overrides the other rasas.

Emphatically disagree. While "God" may overtly be the object of majority of the compositions, the moods that are involved are quite varied - "bhakthi" not always at the forefront; sometimes describing God as disloyal friend or other times as enticing lover.

[Sangeet Rasik]

Emphatically disagree. While "God" may overtly be the object of majority of the compositions, the moods that are involved are quite varied - "bhakthi" not always at the forefront; sometimes describing God as disloyal friend or other times as enticing lover.

For the sake of discussion, can you give us an example each of a kriti in which two different moods are created: 1) God as disloyal friend, and 2) as enticing lover.

SR

[sureshvv]

How about Manamu ledha, Edhuta Nilachithe, Adamodi galadhe etc. where Thyagaraja scolds Rama abundantly?

[Sangeet Rasik]

How about Manamu ledha, Edhuta Nilachithe, Adamodi galadhe etc. where Thyagaraja scolds Rama abundantly?

Sureshvv,

Thank you. I am posting links to the sahityas of all three kritis you mention. I have learned two of them, but never had heard eduta nilachite previously (I listened to the recording available on the site below).

http://www.karnatik.com/c1359.shtml
http://www.karnatik.com/c1802.shtml
http://www.karnatik.com/c2271.shtml

My comments are:

1. Eduta nilicite has only the standard Sankarabharanam lakshanas and phrases strung together in a familiar way, I could not make out a consistent effort to create a "critical-of-the-deity" atmosphere by using the music in addition to the lyrics. Would the impact be different if it was sung in, say, bilahari or simhendramadhyamam ?

2. My comments on Adamodi are exactly the same.

3. Manamu leda: The first words "manamu leda" indeed create that feeling of righteous indignation, but after that it was hard to see that thread running through the music (though again, the words used are clearly those of indignation). In general Hamir Kalyani is a raga that conveys hope, purpose, and romantic love. I could not find a consistent thread of using it for conveying disappointment/indignation in this piece.

4. An overall comment - do you think Tyagaraja is really serious here ? I.e., is he really that upset ? It seems more like mock anger to me. It seems rather "artificial" (if I might use that word) to project anger using puranic imagery. How can Rama, a hero from the puranas, possibly be responsible for Tyagaraja's plight, whatever it may have been at the time ? Contrast with "nidhi chala sukhama" wherein the "situation" seems a genuine philosophical dilemma - i.e., pondering whether "nidhi" or "bhakti" is the right choice. Or the use of ragas like Megh and Malhar to describe the Indian monsoon - which is a real occurrence with so many implications and effects.

Overall, I feel that bhakti is the over-riding theme in the exmaples you mention. Perhaps Tyagaraja wanted to create some interesting "twists" for his own enjoyment, or for those listening to him? It is hard to discern anything else but single-minded preoccupation with Rama in a consistent manner.

I am not saying that Tyagaraja never considered the synergy between the emotions portrayed in the kritis with the ragas he employed. For example, the tuning of "ela ni dayaradu" hits the mark. I am saying there seems no consistent pattern that one can discern, which might indicate the use of an aesthetic framework or theory.

SR

[sureshvv]

I am not saying that Tyagaraja never considered the synergy between the emotions portrayed in the kritis with the ragas he employed. For example, the tuning of "ela ni dayaradu" hits the mark. I am saying there seems no consistent pattern that one can discern, which might indicate the use of an aesthetic framework or theory.

May be the problem is with some of the underlying assumptions. (Or may be because I am entering this discussion late ) Why should an aesthetic framework or theory include a consistent pattern between a raga and the emotions portrayed using it? This does not work well in CM. Many ragas are capable of expressing many different emotions, only loosely related. It is quite possible that certain moods are better expressed using certain ragas, but I do not think there is a strong rigid mapping.

4. An overall comment - do you think Tyagaraja is really serious here ? I.e., is he really that upset ? It seems more like mock anger to me. It seems rather "artificial" (if I might use that word) to project anger using puranic imagery. How can Rama, a hero from the puranas, possibly be responsible for Tyagaraja's plight, whatever it may have been at the time ?
Overall, I feel that bhakti is the over-riding theme in the exmaples you mention. Perhaps Tyagaraja wanted to create some interesting "twists" for his own enjoyment, or for those listening to him? It is hard to discern anything else but single-minded preoccupation with Rama in a consistent manner.

He is dead serious. The plight is with Rama, not the puranic hero but his personal deity, not fulfilling his desire to take him away from the worldly concerns and be with him. There is single-minded preoccupation, but that includes different moods in different contexts, sometimes praising and cajoling and other times damning or shaming. "Bhakthi" is too broad a brush and too big a tent to clump all these different hues of emotion together. In general, I find that God is made the object of many different human emotions, all not necessarily spiritual.

[thenpaanan]

May be the problem is with some of the underlying assumptions. (Or may be because I am entering this discussion late ) Why should an aesthetic framework or theory include a consistent pattern between a raga and the emotions portrayed using it? This does not work well in CM. Many ragas are capable of expressing many different emotions, only loosely related. It is quite possible that certain moods are better expressed using certain ragas, but I do not think there is a strong rigid mapping.

He is dead serious. The plight is with Rama, not the puranic hero but his personal deity, not fulfilling his desire to take him away from the worldly concerns and be with him. There is single-minded preoccupation, but that includes different moods in different contexts, sometimes praising and cajoling and other times damning or shaming. "Bhakthi" is too broad a brush and too big a tent to clump all these different hues of emotion together. In general, I find that God is made the object of many different human emotions, all not necessarily spiritual.

The question is whether there is a theory of aesthetics at all for CM, i.e. is there any basis that is used consistently in the selection of ragas for kritis or raga delineation that is different for different types of situations (categories) but consistently similar within a type of situation, however you define a situation. An aesthetic framework for CM need not be based on emotions but the nearest system (the only one in Indian culture I know of) with a theory of aesthetics is classical Indian dance with Bharata's navarasa theory which can be loosely translated as emotions or feeling or disposition-based. There is the aesthetics of HM based on times of day and ragas and raginis but it does not seem to be well-developed. Again, it need not be a rigid mapping but every pattern that I have thought of I found has been broken strongly or is not consistent across composers.

To your second point, Tyagaraja may have been dead serious about his emotions, but the question is not the sincerity but the reflection of that in his compositions: if, to a listener who is quite familiar with the overall approach of CM, I interchanged the tunes of two unheard kritis with very different moods in the lyrics, would he know that something was amiss? I bet not.

My sense is that emotions are the content of the lyrics alone (though from what we know about Tyagaraja's life it seems impossible that he did not create the lyrics and the melody as an integrated whole).

From what I can gather both from composers in CM as well as composers on this forum, the melody and gait are composed on an independent basis, the only constraint is whether the words fit the "mettu." Thus, perhaps we should only consider the raga component (ignoring the lyrics as secondary) and then the contention that CM aesthetics are not based on emotions is supportable. But then that begs the question: what would be the aesthetics of a purely raga-based theory?

Here is a tough challenge: the Tyagaraja kriti "vinavE O manasA!" in Vivardhini. If you have never heard this song, listen to the audio first (there are many identical versions by different artists on sangeethamshare) and try to guess the content of the lyrics and then go read the meaning. Or read the lyrics and see if you can guess how that song would be tuned. For those who have heard the kriti, see if you can justify the matching of the lyrics to the way the song is sung.

-Then Paanan

[Sangeet Rasik]

May be the problem is with some of the underlying assumptions. (Or may be because I am entering this discussion late ) Why should an aesthetic framework or theory include a consistent pattern between a raga and the emotions portrayed using it?

Indeed, it does not have to include such a pattern (I am not trying to force-fit one either). The hypothesis (introduced by thenpaanan) is that one possible aesthetic framework for CM derives from the well-known theories in ancient Indian music regarding the use of ragas to portray navarasas.

This does not work well in CM. Many ragas are capable of expressing many different emotions, only loosely related.

Yes, indeed as I mentioned earlier in another discussion, many of the core CM ragas are "multipurpose", they can be used to portray different types of emotion. But that seems to not be a fully satisfying explanation, because it still does not preclude the use of the raga for a particular emotion in a kriti, among its several uses. You may still be correct, that the potential is there but not fully used so far.

It is quite possible that certain moods are better expressed using certain ragas, but I do not think there is a strong rigid mapping.

I agree that CM has not established such a strong mapping (unlike HM where it is more developed). In your view then, is there another aesthetic framework at all that can be proposed, based upon another set of principles, if not the raga-rasa mappings ? Considering the number of CM intellectuals in Chennai who are vehement about CM being separate from HM, I would be surprised if they did not develop an explanation of its aesthetic framework and show its clear distinction from that of HM.

As an aside, see the following well-known composition of Tyagaraja (sogasuga mrdangatalamu):

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... gasuga.htm

The composer states that it is his objective to compose kritis that incorporate prosody, musical punctuation, nice melody, comprising the navarasas, and standing firm in faith. He also speaks of the importance of laya and the percussion instrument. Previously I argued that this kriti reveals a conscious effort by Tyagaraja to compose "good quality" songs, that his compositions (as we know them today) are the result of conscious effort and construction. But I got attacked by those who believe that they came out spontaneously in perfect form! Of course, as expected he veils the whole thing under bhakti, i.e. he says that Rama is essentially controlling all of this. Also I suggest we ignore the claim that his objective is also to sing the wisdom of the Vedas (this is completely untrue) - since that is not the subject in this thread.

"Bhakthi" is too broad a brush and too big a tent to clump all these different hues of emotion together. In general, I find that God is made the object of many different human emotions, all not necessarily spiritual.

Well, that is exactly one of the main features of "overriding bhakti" in my opinion - the tendency to project essentially all your emotions into your personal deity. It creates a "closed circuit" of sorts wherein the person is now essentially disconnected from other experiences. Note there is nothing "wrong" with being a bhakta. This tendency is observed with others like Mirabai for example (the hero in this case is Krishna).

But it then becomes difficult to explore/express emotional experiences in the form of art, because "everything ends up at the feet of Rama", so to speak. How does one develop this important component of aesthetics (to my mind) in this framework ?

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

Thenpaanan,

My sense is that emotions are the content of the lyrics alone (though from what we know about Tyagaraja's life it seems impossible that he did not create the lyrics and the melody as an integrated whole).

I don't think that the emotions are the content of the lyrics alone. I believe that the aesthetic framework is very much there (as in HM), and that I think a merger with HM aesthetics (which essentially capture the Indian ethos in its varied hues) is desirable. That doesn't mean the issue is laid to rest, of course. Once there is a proper foundation, one must move forward and evolve taking into account contemporary themes and ideas. What CM contributes to the merger, so to speak, is the more fully developed dimension of integrating the sahitya, which is not that well developed in HM.

From what I can gather both from composers in CM as well as composers on this forum, the melody and gait are composed on an independent basis, the only constraint is whether the words fit the "mettu."

Of course, there may be many composers (past and present) following this approach - as I have "complained" before . However, I do not subscribe to it. The way I see it, one cannot grow the trunk and branches of the tree first and then start on the leaves and flowers and fruits. All aspects (raga, rasa, sahitya, and laya) should develop together into an attractive and solid composition which has a coherent artistic message of some kind. it is not even a "linear" process - one does not necessarily always start at the first line of the composition and linearly complete it.

My study of MD compositions also convinces me that he did not follow the "independent basis" approach either but rather developed an "integrated approach".

Tyagaraja also purports (in his kriti as listed above) to do something similar, but it is admittedly hard to see a consistent thread of this in his kriti corpus.

Thus, perhaps we should only consider the raga component (ignoring the lyrics as secondary) and then the contention that CM aesthetics are not based on emotions is supportable. But then that begs the question: what would be the aesthetics of a purely raga-based theory?

Yes, this would be an oversimplification in terms of what is "more desirable", but I suspect that one will find CM aesthetics (at least in practice) is at present uncomfortably close to what you propose above.

SR

[arasi]

Thenpaanan,
Very interesting thoughts!
Will wait my turn until others have chipped in.

[thenpaanan]

Thenpaanan,

I don't think that the emotions are the content of the lyrics alone. I believe that the aesthetic framework is very much there (as in HM), and that I think a merger with HM aesthetics (which essentially capture the Indian ethos in its varied hues) is desirable. That doesn't mean the issue is laid to rest, of course. Once there is a proper foundation, one must move forward and evolve taking into account contemporary themes and ideas. What CM contributes to the merger, so to speak, is the more fully developed dimension of integrating the sahitya, which is not that well developed in HM.

I believe the aesthetic framework in HM is not based on the sahitya but on other aspects of the music. Indeed, I find that when all of a sudden one finds a matching of lyrics to mood to raga in HM (more often found in film music) such as in "ketaki gulAb jUhi champak ban phUlE" it really comes across as a surprise.

The way I see it, one cannot grow the trunk and branches of the tree first and then start on the leaves and flowers and fruits. All aspects (raga, rasa, sahitya, and laya) should develop together into an attractive and solid composition which has a coherent artistic message of some kind. it is not even a "linear" process - one does not necessarily always start at the first line of the composition and linearly complete it.

That would, of course, make (too much) sense.

My study of MD compositions also convinces me that he did not follow the "independent basis" approach either but rather developed an "integrated approach".

I have heard this before and would love to believe it myself. But I have yet to see it substantiated. MD was a fantastically creative composer but I have yet to see or learn of a pattern or method in his compositions. Each composition is different which is great but does not lend itself to a theory of any kind.

Tyagaraja also purports (in his kriti as listed above) to do something similar, but it is admittedly hard to see a consistent thread of this in his kriti corpus.

I presume you imply here that MD is more consistent than T in this respect. *hint hint*

-Then Paanan

[thenpaanan]

Thenpaanan,
Very interesting thoughts!
Will wait my turn until others have chipped in.

Arasi

As it is, this thread is hanging by a slender thread.

Go ahead and plunge in. Perhaps your thoughts may inspire others to join?

-Then Paanan

[arasi]

Thenpaanan,
Whatever I begin to say is not going to strengthen this thread, I'm afraid!
SR speaks of bhakti-based compositions often. What IS bhakti? I need a definition of bhakti first. Let's say one writes a song about one's mother (it's Mothers Day today!)--of a mother one loves and cherishes. Would that be considered as a song based on bhakti, and a song about a nation? And one about Sai bAba, another one about Nature with which we are awestruck?
Or by bhakti it is implied that T worshipped RAma as an idol and followed rituals and so his songs are bhakti-based? MD's too, for that matter? All songs which have the name of a god?
Personally, I think of myself as a writer first and then as a composer. So, let me start with my writing. With prose (particularly with fiction, I just write when the mood strike me and I start filling the pages. I may take a break and come back to it again. Yet, the conscious part of it comes into focus only when I start editing my work.
With poetry, it just gets written and I have no idea as to what I am writing about, until it stops and I go back to the first line and read it to find out what it's all about. With my songs too, it's the same. The song comes (arrives), I write it down as I hum it until I finish it.
I have not changed the rAgam of any of my songs either. Only once did a song come to me in words alone, and I could not hum it or tune it afterwards. I drew a blank when I came across it a few times in my notebook and still have not done anything with it.
Mind you, this is one composer's experience. Am I alone in this? I don't know. Are all the integral parts already there in them ? I don't know. When it comes to words, I seldom change them. If I do, it is when the tAlam needs an extra syllable or one less or so. Those changes do not alter the intent or intensity of the sense in the line. With prose of course, I have done that.
In my case, if I tried to change lines in my songs, I would be throwing away some of the bhAvam too. So, what happens during the course of many years? I toss out a few of the songs I'm not happy with..
Well, you now know that the birth of my compositions cannot stand the test of deep analysis or any logical approach to them.
All that I know is that they happen, however bad, good, good to very good or excellent--as Rajesh would put it.

[Sangeet Rasik]

I believe the aesthetic framework in HM is not based on the sahitya but on other aspects of the music. Indeed, I find that when all of a sudden one finds a matching of lyrics to mood to raga in HM (more often found in film music) such as in "ketaki gulAb jUhi champak ban phUlE" it really comes across as a surprise.

To clarify, I have not claimed the sahitya is the prime basis of aesthetics in HM. HM aesthetic is not "based" only on the sahitya but it is one of the important components. When the raga and rasa are "matched", the sahitya also matches - otherwise there would be a disruptive effect. I would be very hard-pressed to find a classical bandish with somber lyrics set to Basant or Basant Bahar. The film adaptation follows/derives from its well-known classical status as a "Spring" raga.

Again, there is not a 100% guarantee, but there is a certain general consistency. Why would you be "suprised" in the above case ? Raga Basant is well-known to be a "happy" raga affiliated to the Spring season.

I agree it becomes harder for the "mishra ragas", but again many like Basant Bahar continue to follow the same aesthetic vein.

That would, of course, make (too much) sense.

Sometimes the truth makes.....ummm, sense?

I have heard this before and would love to believe it myself. But I have yet to see it substantiated. MD was a fantastically creative composer but I have yet to see or learn of a pattern or method in his compositions. Each composition is different which is great but does not lend itself to a theory of any kind.

Before we discuss this, let me make sure I understand your viewpoint. You believe that MD independently composed the sahitya and then set it to the raga and tala without consideraton for:
(1) the overall emotive quality of the raga and whether it "matches" the mood of the lyrics, as well as
(2) specific "tuning" and "intonation" of syllables/words in the composition

Is that right ? Or are you suggesting something else but not quite an integrated approach ?

I presume you imply here that MD is more consistent than T in this respect. *hint hint*

Yes. What is the "hint" for ? In certain aspects MD is more consistent, whereas Tyaragaja is more consistent in other respects - for example, in "sogasuga mrdangatalamu" he purports to pay full attention to prosodical requirements, and in fact does so more consistently than MD. Now some people believe that any MD composition with prosodical "errors" is probably spurious, but this is not substantiated.

SR

[Sangeet Rasik]

SR speaks of bhakti-based compositions often. What IS bhakti? I need a definition of bhakti first.

When I use the term "bhakti" I mean almost exclusively the religious idea/expression of devotion to a personal god/deity based on the Hindu puranas. Yes, the compositions of MD, SS, ST, and T are all predominantly "bhakti-based" but with different approaches to expression.

As was discussed with another poster in the "Secular themes" thread, I don't consider deshbhakti, pitrbhakti, matrbhakti etc as "bhakti" in the above sense, unless it becomes an all-consuming obsession which then acquires the status of a "religion" in itself. Being awestruck by Nature is not "bhakti", unless all of one's composition's are on the same subject.

Well, you now know that the birth of my compositions cannot stand the test of deep analysis or any logical approach to them.

Yes - it is not possible to "logically analyze" creativity at the deeper levels. One can however draw a rough sketch of a consistent framework of some principles which enhance the quality of compositions.

SR

[arasi]

Thanks SR for making your idea of bhakti clear to me.
Nature is included in 'bhakti paNNudal, seidal' in my case. So, we all have our own approach to Divinity (or whatever else) we sing about.

[vasanthakokilam]

When I use the term "bhakti" I mean almost exclusively the religious idea/expression of devotion to a personal god/deity based on the Hindu puranas. Yes, the compositions of MD, SS, ST, and T are all predominantly "bhakti-based" but with different approaches to expression.

I would like to add a slightly different color and try to express a point of view that Thyagaraja does not restrict himself to "religious idea/expression of devotion to a personal god/deity based on the Hindu puranas". It is true that he does not go to themes like describing how beautiful the flow of river cauvery is or the comfort that a rainfall brings after a hot summer etc. But he crosses over to social themes and on personal conduct and virtues while maintaining the 'rama bhakti' context. In that sense, he is different from MD and SS.

Here is how I would roughly classify his ideas.. ( I plucked these out from Sri Govindan's blog. It is not exhaustive so it is only for illustrative purposes ).

1. bhakti alone - Love towards his Rama and singing his praise.
"nI nAmamandu, nija prEma lEni bratuku Emi?"
Of what avail such livelihood bereft of true love towards Your name?

"santatambu tana antarambuna nI cinta lEni vADu enta?"
Of what significance is he who does not always have Your thought in his mind?

etc.

2. Philosophical

* tAmara Aku nIru vidhamu prapancamu; tatvamu kAdu;
* gajja muNDla mIda tagulukonna baTTa, grakkuna tIya vaSamA?
* accuga, bhavamuna tagulukonna madi vaccunA, nI vaddaku?

* Universe is like a water droplet on lotus leaf; it isn’t reality;
* Is it possible to quickly remove a cloth entangled on Fever Nut thorns?
* Exactly, can a mind entangled in the (ocean of) Worldly Existence come to Your proximity so easily?

3. Bhakti only as a backdrop but launching onto social themes and criticisms of the scenes around him

pAlumAlina pAmarulanu olla, I lOkamulanu, nI lIlagAnu jUcu, guNa SIlula, nA pala kalga jEsi, pAlimpumayya;
Please protect me by creating around me (the company of) high minded people who behold these Worlds as Your sport, so that I may shun the company of lethargic idiots.

pApulu-Aruguru vaSyulu gAka, paNDlu-igilincucu taruNulakai, nija bhaktiyu teliyani, tyAgarAjuniki, orulakaina, nOrEmi ninnADa?
Whether for this tyAgarAja or any one else who, unable to bring under control the six sinners, grinning shamelessly for (soliciting) women, and not knowing what true devotion is, how audacious (of them) to blame You?

"vancana sEyaDu;varulatO bonkaDu;cancala cittuDai saukhyamu viDuvaDu;"

"not deceive anyone; not speak lies with revered ones (or) with others; not abandon the comfort (of self-same nature) by becoming fickle minded;"

"mAmsamu muTTaDu;madhuvunu trAgaDu;para-himsala sEyaDu;erukanu maravaDu;"
"not touch meat;not drink intoxicants;not cause injury to others;not forget what one has learnt;"

1. japa tapamula tA jEsitini ana rAdu;
2. kapaTa AtmuDu manamai palka rAdu;
3. upama tanaku lEka uNDavalenu ani, UrayUra tirugaga rAdu;
4. capala cittuDai Alu sutulapai sAreku bhrama kArAdu;
5. bhava vibhavamu nijamu ani encaga rAdu;
6. Siva - mAdhava bhEdamu jEyaga rAdu;
7. bhuvanamandu, tAnE yOgyuDanu ani bonki, poTTa sAkaga rAdu;
8. pavana Atmaja dhRtamau sItA pati pAdamulanu Emara rAdu;
9. rajasa, tAmasa guNamulu kArAdu;
10. avyAjamunanu rA lEdu ana kArAdu;
11. rAja yOga mArgamu, nI cittamu rA jUcuTa, viDavaga rAdu;
12. rAja SikhA maNiyaina, tyAgarAja sakhuni marava rAdu -


1. one should never boast that “I performed daily prayers and penances”;
2. one should not speak cunningly;
3. one should not roam about from place to place (exhibiting talents) so that he should be unrivalled;
4. one should not, by becoming fickle minded, ever be fascinated by (encumbrances like) wife and children;
5. one should not consider the festivities (as seen in the) Ocean of Worldly Existence to be real;
6. one should not differentiate (between sects) as ‘Lord Siva’ and ‘Lord vishNu’;
7. one should not nourish his stomach by lying that he alone is the most competent in the World;
8. one should not forget the Feet of Lord SrI rAma - Consort of sItA - held by AnjanEya;
9. one should not have (be under the influence of) qualities of passion and inertia;
10. one should not say that (grace of the Lord) did not come of its own (without earning it);
11. one’s mind should not give up till the path of rAja yOga is firmly established; and
12. one should not forget Lord SrI rAma who is the crown jewel of all Kings and who is the companion of this tyAgarAja.

[Sangeet Rasik]

I would like to add a slightly different color and try to express a point of view that Thyagaraja does not restrict himself to "religious idea/expression of devotion to a personal god/deity based on the Hindu puranas".

I agree that T's compositions do not explicitly express devotion to Rama in every line and word, and take different tracks and paths, but I have to disagree on the relative positions of bhakti and philosophy/social criticism. I think it was the other way round - philosophy/social criticism was used as the backdrop for launching the conclusion that Ramabhakti was the reliable solution (at least for himself). I don't think there is much practical difference between T's approach to philosophical statements and social criticsms, and that of MD's. In many compositions MD mentions advaita philosophy principles through its well-known motifs and keywords, and sometimes he gives understated advice on personal conduct and values (mostly to himself, i.e. in the first person) and makes observations about society.

BTW I simply tried to summarize all the details and colors of bhakti into a short "working definition" - there was no attempt to diminish the high-mindedness of any composer.

SR

[thenpaanan]

When the raga and rasa are "matched", the sahitya also matches - otherwise there would be a disruptive effect.

I would say that sahitya matching is not a requirement in CM. Indeed, in CM the sahitya seems to dissolve into the background and besides being the carrier for the melodic and rhythmic aspects, does not play any significant role, at least in performance terms. I cannot say that I have heard (apart from a few performers such as BMK, MDR, Prince Varma, etc), that you can tell that the performer is deferring to the sahitya. It may be that the performer actually knows the meaning (e.g. ARI) and enjoys it but it rarely comes across in the actual rendering of the kriti.

Actually, if performers paid attention to sahitya it would seriously disrupt the singing of kritis in the manner they are sung today. Take, for example, T's composition in harikAmbhOji "rAma nannu". The excellent Shri Govindan has pointed out in this forum that the way that this song is sung namely "rAMa nannu brOva rA" is actually wrong because the last word is "rAvEmakO" and changes the meaning of the line entirely from "rAma, come protect me" to "rAma, why are you not protecting me?". But I have yet to hear a single rendition that is faithful to this meaning and this is because I suspect this would completely disrupt the way it is sung today, which entails singing at least three sangatis on the line 'rAma nannu brOva rA" before proceeding to complete the sentence. In the interest of full disclosure I should admit that I have learned and have been singing it like this (the wrong way) until Shri Govindan pointed this out.

I don't think one can argue that the rasa was gone because the sahitya was mangled -- generations have enjoyed listening to this way of rendering of the kriti. Another less glaring but more evocative example is T's "paluku kanda chakkara" which is typically terminated at "paluku kanda cha" even by top-tier vidwans (with a few exceptions) because it is arrives conveniently on the dhrutam, but for most of us this does not reduce our enjoyment.

I would be very hard-pressed to find a classical bandish with somber lyrics set to Basant or Basant Bahar. The film adaptation follows/derives from its well-known classical status as a "Spring" raga. Again, there is not a 100% guarantee, but there is a certain general consistency. Why would you be "suprised" in the above case ? Raga Basant is well-known to be a "happy" raga affiliated to the Spring season.

What surprised me in this instance is that while I have heard basant elsewhere and have enjoyed the spring-like mood it evokes, the riot of color and flowers in spring evoked by the heaping of floral names and the super-fast gait of the song evoking the urgency of bloom reinforce each other rather uniquely. It is this strong consistency between the effect of the melody, the rhythm, and the words that surprised me.

Before we discuss this, let me make sure I understand your viewpoint. You believe that MD independently composed the sahitya and then set it to the raga and tala without consideraton for:
(1) the overall emotive quality of the raga and whether it "matches" the mood of the lyrics, as well as
(2) specific "tuning" and "intonation" of syllables/words in the composition

Is that right ? Or are you suggesting something else but not quite an integrated approach ?

I believe MD was fantastically creative and his deftness at Sanskrit is simply unmatched. Whether the emotive quality matches the mood of the lyrics is hard to answer in general because the lyrics frequently tend to be rather abstract and complex. Every one of MD's kritis is exquisite and as SRJ says some kritis are concise master classes in that raga.

However, I think MD composed in a manner analogous to what arasi has described. That is, the choice of raga may have been matched to the overall mood of the lyric but the actual composing was done by an instinctive method. In this sense there is no tight integration between a particular turn of lyrical phrase vs melodic phrase (your second choice). For example, it would have been interesting to find that MD used the same kind of plaintive melodic phrase in most places where "dEhI dEhI" (please give) appears or when he uses the third person to point out the goddess as in the kalyANi abhayAMbA kriti.

But it seems MD kritis are much more complex and abstract with melodic gestures (e.g. the last line of the kamalamba kriti in Sahana where he uses the janta prayoga) and lyrical gestures (e.g. the humorous "kEshava kaTAkshaika nEtram" in shri shuka bhagavantham) overlaid independently. But this may be simply because I don't know enough about MD kritis. I am hoping that you (or someone else) can correct me on this and show that there is tight binding of some form.

Yes. What is the "hint" for ?

*hint hint* == please expand. I was trying to persuade you to write more about the topic since you had just the one intriguing sentence comparing MD and T. That's all. I will try to be more clear in the future.

In certain aspects MD is more consistent, whereas Tyaragaja is more consistent in other respects - for example, in "sogasuga mrdangatalamu" he purports to pay full attention to prosodical requirements, and in fact does so more consistently than MD. Now some people believe that any MD composition with prosodical "errors" is probably spurious, but this is not substantiated.

SR

Ok. I thought you were going to say that T was more consistent with his application of raga or melodic phrase to mood. But your point is a good one. Prosody matching is also an important dimension of the lyric-melody aesthetic.

-Then Paanan

[vasanthakokilam]

The following is of some interest to this thread:

In this link: http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2010/05/07/s ... 740300.htm "Kritis in their pristine form " about the efforts by vidushi Smt. Vedavalli..

"‘Seethamma Mayamma' had been oscillating between Lalitha and Vasantha and has finally now settled to Vasantha. The variation between these two ragas hinges on the dhaivatham. Old books have mentioned Lalitha as the raga, which would suit the tenor of the lyric Lalitha (Dhainyam) than Vasantha (Ghambiram). This kriti therefore has been rendered in Lalitha."

"The lyric seeking Gnaanam from Rama would limit itself to a sober Shadvidhamargini than the grand Purvikalyani. Thyagaraja must have opted only for the former."

Not that this proves anything about what T had in mind, but these indicate some thoughts of raga, rasa and lyrics integration which is talked about in this thread.

[arasi]

VK,
Thanks for the clip and for what you have said before. After discussing this ad infinitum, what conclusions can one come to? If TyAgarAja himself were here to speak his mind, what would he say? And MD?
I suppose it gives us a glimpse into the mind of a classical (though modern) composer like SR and a rasikA of many dimensions such as Thenpaanan--and the kOkilam which doubles as a gatherer of relevant material.
As an aside, in the Hindu bit you have posted, our Ram looks as serene as ever. According to our reviewers, his playing is getting better, we hear. Can't wait to listen to him this coming season!

[thenpaanan]

The following is of some interest to this thread:

In this link: http://www.thehindu.com/fr/2010/05/07/s ... 740300.htm "Kritis in their pristine form " about the efforts by vidushi Smt. Vedavalli..

"‘Seethamma Mayamma' had been oscillating between Lalitha and Vasantha and has finally now settled to Vasantha. The variation between these two ragas hinges on the dhaivatham. Old books have mentioned Lalitha as the raga, which would suit the tenor of the lyric Lalitha (Dhainyam) than Vasantha (Ghambiram). This kriti therefore has been rendered in Lalitha."

"The lyric seeking Gnaanam from Rama would limit itself to a sober Shadvidhamargini than the grand Purvikalyani. Thyagaraja must have opted only for the former."

Not that this proves anything about what T had in mind, but these indicate some thoughts of raga, rasa and lyrics integration which is talked about in this thread.

The active choices that a composer makes are a good window into the composer's thinking, keeping in mind not only what the composer chooses to include but also what the composer has obviously rejected by his choice. Shadvidhamargini is an unfamiliar (to me) and rarely used raga -- so the choice of the raga is meaningful (in that it rejects pUrvikalyANi) even if we can only guess at T's intentions in picking this raga. With respect to sItammA mAyamma, a version that is full of Dhainyam seems far away from currently popular versions. Perhaps Smt Vedavalli's CD has such a version?

Speaking of sober and somber moods, I recently learned T's classic "nidhi chAla sukhama?" and I benefited from our savant vgvindan's word by word translation. The lyrics and mood (especially the charanam) are as sober as one gets with T. I don't know that anyone can argue that the way it is sung today one could call it sober, especially if you consider that the neraval that is typically done (at "mamatA bandhanayuta" which ought to be soaked in pain and disgust) is almost always sung at top speed with vigor and muscularity. To complicate matters even at the level of theory, the song is close to T's own "amma rAvamma" in melodic line, but I dont think amma rAvamma in praise of tulasi is considered sober.

-Then Paanan