identifying 1-kalai or 2-kalai from notation

[vignesh]

hi... i would like to know how one can identify if a talam ex. chatustra triputa or roopakam is in 1-kalai or 2-kalai from a notation...
if it is mentioned explicitly along with the talam's kind, then it is not an issue... but how does one identify when there is no mention of whether the composition is in 1-kalai or 2-kalai...

[keerthi]

there is no way to identify a krti as being one kalai or tewokalai choukam.

This has led to pathAntara-s of several songs in either version -

1. Inta saukhyamani - kApi.
2. RakSa bettare - bhairavi
3. mitri bhAgyamE - kharaharapriya
4. Adenamma haruDu - paraz [all adi tAlam]

5. nIlAyatAksi - paras - triputa

each of these songs exists in both one and tewo kalai versions.

As most compositions have an even number of tAla Avarta-s in the pallavi, anupallavi and charanam (s), most compositions will fit into both tala types.

if one tried singing a krti with say three or five tAla cycles to each khandika of the song, clearly it would fit into only one version.

[cmlover]

Keerthi
Could you pl explain your last line?
Actually any song can be sung in 1 or 2 kaLai by prolonging the maatras though it may start looking artificial. Is it not?

[Nick H]

Odd, or even, we can double the number of beats and make 1-kalai into two, but if odd, we cannot halve it and make 2-kalai into one, at least not without taking more than one line before coming to samum at the start of a line.

[vasanthakokilam]

there is no way to identify a krti as being one kalai or two kalai choukam.

This has led to pathAntara-s of several songs in either version -

1. Inta saukhyamani - kApi.
2. RakSa bettare - bhairavi
3. mitri bhAgyamE - kharaharapriya
4. Adenamma haruDu - paraz [all adi tAlam]

5. nIlAyatAksi - paras - triputa

each of these songs exists in both one and tewo kalai versions.

As most compositions have an even number of tAla Avarta-s in the pallavi, anupallavi and charanam (s), most compositions will fit into both tala types.

if one tried singing a krti with say three or five tAla cycles to each khandika of the song, clearly it would fit into only one version.

Keerthi: With such unwinding of 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai, if the song has a significant stress in the arudhi point, then there is a significant change. At least as per convention, the 'above normal' stress and a kArvai happens at around the middle of the thala cycle. Such a 2 kaLai song, when kept in 1 kaLai, will move that stress point to the beginning of the thala cycle. Do any of those 5 songs have a arudhi like heavy stress?

[mridangamkid]

1 kalai and 2 kalai are the exact same thing from my understanding. It's asking what the difference between 2 and 4- they are the same thing- it is just how one counts it.

When the pallavi anupallavi or charanam restarts, is where the the thalam starts. Now one can count this in a 1 kalai motion, however for main songs or slower songs, it would be much more difficult to do this because the intervals between each beat would be longer. If we sing a 2 kalai song usuing 1 kalai adi thalam, then each beat would have 8 mathras between them correct? We will be counting in half time (so to say) and would count 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 (each bold being a beat). Now instead, for 2 kalai we just divide each beat into half, counting each beat twice, and counting each matra in double the speed. 1234 1234 1234 1234.

I feel the first thing to understand is that 1 kalai adi thalam and 2 kalai adi thalam are the same, just different speeds of counting matras. Now to tell whether the song is in 1 kalai or 2, just see where the pallavi begins. Take for example O'Rangasayee. Sing that song using normal 1 kalai (do not change the mathras, count as if you are doing it in 2 kalai but just do each beat once rather than twice). If you'd notice it goes back to O'Rangasayee after 2 repetitions of the cycle. Now if you take something such as Manavyalakim, and do it in 2 kalai- if you notice it will repeat back into the pallavi ever half cycle. Will it work? Of course, because again these are the same thing, but the pallavi should always come back to samam.

Again this is just my understanding. Hopefully I'm correct with this assumption.

[Nick H]

Would I be wrong then in saying that 1-kalai adi has 8 beats, but 2-kalai adi has 16?

I mean in the sense that if you have a song in which one line fits 1-kalai talam, then 2-kalai talam will now cover two lines in one cycle.

[vasanthakokilam]

There is mechanics and then there is aesthetic rhythmic structure of the song. What mridangamkid wrote is correct from a tala keeping mechanics perspective. What Nick wrote is also correct and again more in the mechanics of it.

But from the musical content point of view, there is a difference, or at least I tend to believe there has to be a difference. But there may not be an uniform acceptance of that.

The arudhi issue I had asked Keerthi is one dimension of musical/rhythmic content inherent in the song that lies separate from how someone keeps thala to it.

The other dimension lies in the difference among the various types of beats in a song: sub-beats, kaLai beats and main beats. If the stresses are different for these, then they definitely have musical significance. Every one of these may not have identical stresses through out the song but there is an overall pattern that distinguishes these different types of beats in a song.

In chathusra gathi, things may be interchangeable and we may not sense the significance. But consider chathusra eka, thisra gathi and consider 1 kaLai and 2 kaLai. There are two distinctive ways of composing a song to that rhythmic structure.

1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3

or

1 2 1 2 1 2 | 12 12 12 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 12 12 12

The first one in 2 Kalai can be unwound to 1 kalai and still retain the thisra gathi feel of the song.

But if you try that with a song with the second rhythmic structure, it would not work. It is in 2 Kalai alright but it has to be in 2 kaLai to maintain the thisra gathi feel.

Thisra gathi 2 kaLai is rare. But I use that to illustrate the underlying musical significance of 1 kaLai and 2 kaLai. You can translate that to the normal chathusra gathi as well.

Again, this is my personal idea and there is a good chance it does not jive with the popular notions.. I am willing or rather waiting to be corrected.

[Nick H]

Could the layman's translation of that amount to, "it feels right"? In which case I could not disagree?

Would I be anywhere near right (I don't understand the words I am hearing) that, as a generalisation, one line of a song takes one or two cycles of the talam in which it is set, or possibly four if it is rupaka?

[arunk]

vk - 12 12 12 | 12 12 12 is not tisra gati - it is simply catusra gati (tisra eka) - assuming there is emphasis on the 1s. Your example would break down in tisra gati as 123 123 | 123 123 ... (2-kalai) or 123 | 123 | 123 | 123 for 1-kalai. But in general kalai is somewhat arbitrary.

[mridangamkid]

arunk,

Could you explain why 12 12 12 would not be a thisra gati?

From my understanding it is. It would be a chathurasra pattern in thisra gathi, much like if one played a pattern of 4.

Rather than playing a pattern of 3, 4 times (such as 123 123 123 123), we would simply play a pattern of 4 (or 2), 3 times (such as 12 12 12 | 12 12 12)

Is this not correct?

Edit:
@Nick H

That is my understanding. In a 1 kalai - system for Adi thalam, if the pallavi takes 1 avarthanams, then it is simply a 1 kalai song- if it takes 2 avarthanams to get back to the pallavi, it would be a 2 kalai song.

Therefor if you try putting the thalam in 2 kalai adi thalam for a 1 kalai song, the pallavi will repeat every have avarthanam correct? Which does not make sense. This does not mean however, that putting a 2 kalai thalam for a one kalai song or vice versa is 'incorrect', meaning it would not fit thalam, it would perfectly fit thalam, it is just not proper because the pallavi won't always come back to samam. Is that correct/ does that make sense?

[vasanthakokilam]

Arun, welcome back... My blather made you come out of hibernation..ha..ha..

I think my diagram above was not complete for chathusra eka. This is what I intended. See if this changes anything..

||1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 || 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 ||

||1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 || 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 ||

My point is ( speculative of course ) each of the sub beat groups need to have a stress difference in the song ( like 1 of the first pattern is stressed differently than 2 & 3 and 1 of the second pattern is stressed differently than 2 ) and the major beats ( 4 of them here ) have a different stress and the arudhi beat ( if any ) has a different stress.

This may be due to the 'observation bias' but when I listen to two kaLai songs, I sense an up and down pulse for each of the kaLai beats. So the main beat of the thala has two pulses. The first pulse is stressed differently from the second pulse. The arudhi of course has a different stress.

If those do not exist in reality, then I agree kaLai is arbitrary.

I heard someone say that in Andhra CM circles/thinking, kaLai has a distinct meaning. This is a very vague recollection. Can someone comment on that?

[keerthi]

Keerthi: With such unwinding of 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai, if the song has a significant stress in the arudhi point, then there is a significant change. At least as per convention, the 'above normal' stress and a kArvai happens at around the middle of the thala cycle. Such a 2 kaLai song, when kept in 1 kaLai, will move that stress point to the beginning of the thala cycle. Do any of those 5 songs have a arudhi like heavy stress?

I am not sure I understand. The change in 'kalai' doesn't mean a change in the correspondence of the positions of the sahitya syllables and the beats. It only means a change in kAlapramAna, and the way tAla is reckoned.

So, the pallavi if in one kalai encompasses two Avarta-s of the tAla, in two kAlai, it will still use two Avarta-s and not one Avarta.


As an aside, do the pallavis of all songs have an arudi?? I have heard and read that there were old pallavi-s (the kind sung in RTP-s) that were bereft of the arudi.

listen to the pallavi of nIdu mUrtini - nAtakuranji, [available at sangeetapriya, MDR and brinda-muktha versions] i feel that this krti, from 'pallavi 'gopAlayyar, exemplifies an older compositional stlye, with no arudi in the pallavi.
Similarly durusuga, of Shyama shAstri in savErI, doesn't seem to have a mid-pallavi arudi.

[arunk]

mridangamkid - I meant from a simple sarvalaghu standpoint i.e. for discerning the gati readily, and thus using the tern as a direct indicator of gait - rather than the use of complex patterns within the framework of gati as employed by percussionists.

So if the pattern is 1 2 1 2 1 2 implying a regular emphasis on just the 1s (or just the 2s), then I believe this will only feel like catusra gati from the above standpoint. That you could do this within a tisra gati song is IMO irrelevant from that angle.

Also, if you take the simple varaveena geetham in rupakam, the swaras are divided as 1 2 1 2 1 2 || 1 2 1 2 1 2 ( GG P- P- || ...).This is standard catusra gati, and certainly feels like it. And that is because, at the basic level you have groupings of 2, and not of 3 as it would be for a straightforward tisra gati feel.

@vk - Regarding
||1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 || 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 1 2 3 ||
vs
||1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 || 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 | 1 2 1 2 1 2 ||

If the first one is tisra gati because there is uniform emphasis on the 1s (i presume that is your thinking? it certainly is mine), then the second one would be catusra gati because of the same uniform emphasis on 1. Here, the outer grouping if 6 is less relevant as the inner grouping by 2 - just like in the first case the outer grouping of 6 is less relevant compared to the inner grouping by 3.

If there is no inner grouping at all then you have just groups of 6 (ta-ka-ta-ri-ki-Ta) which would be tisra gati pattern. If instead the grouping was 2+4 (ta-ka ta-ka-di-mi), that I believe would also be catusra gati feel.

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

I am not sure I understand. The change in 'kalai' doesn't mean a change in the correspondence of the positions of the sahitya syllables and the beats. It only means a change in kAlapramAna, and the way tAla is reckoned.

So, the pallavi if in one kalai encompasses two Avarta-s of the tAla, in two kAlai, it will still use two Avarta-s and not one Avarta.

Right. I agree that if we do not consider external thala keeping, the song itself will be sung the same way. And I would not even call it a change in kAlapramANa since the (constant) tempo itself is defined by the beats irrespective of the kaLai.

My point is, the arudi is supposed to provide a fulcrum/balancing point with respect to the line of the pallavi and the thala avartha. And that fulcrum point indirectly decides the eduppu which has implications for constructing kOrvai, theermAnams etc. I realize when one keeps the thala in 1 kaLai the fulcrum point moves to the beginning of the thala avartha. It may not be too odd for Adi. But if you take ata thala where there can be two arudhis, such implications are further more serious. And the beauty of the balance wrt to the pallavi line and thala avartha is minimized. ( I will listen to your examples of pallavis with no discernible arudhis )

Interestingly, if you a flatten a 3 kaLai Adi ( let us assume that is an OK terminology to use ) to a 1 kaLai thala reckoning, it moves the arudhi to the mid point of the avartha alright but at every other avartha. Actually, I do find that interesting ( as a personal hobby, I try different rhythmic forms on existing songs )

Arun, you are right that my second representation is not equivalent to the first one. But I misspoke and it is not illustrative of the point I was trying to convey. The second representation is really a 3-kaLai chathusra gathi. Whether one gets a thisra feel for that or not is a different thing. I probably need to think of other portrayals of my thoughts on this.

I am still trying to hold on to the notion that kaLai is a musically significant thing and not just a thala reckoning mechanism.
That is, kaLai is inherent in the song, at least with respect to CM idioms on compositional techniques. I do grant that it is flimsy given the significant number of exceptions.

Most music systems recognize two things: Speed and Tempo. We have that also. Sub-beats ( nadai, gathi ) provide for the speed and the main beat provides for the Tempo. I would like to believe that kaLai grouping is good for something and it provides a third rhythmic aesthetic that is inherent in the song.

For my thinking to be relevant, there has to be a hierarchical rhythmic structures inherent in the song consisting of five elements.

• The highest grouping is the number of main beats per line of the song and
• There are one or more (optional) arudhi points which carries a pronounced stress/emphasis, somewhere in the middle area
• The lowest grouping is the sub-beats ( representing the speed ).
• And there is the normalized beat ( which represents the tempo of the song ) which can be thought to be in sync with an external metronome and unchanging.
• They are then grouped into kaLai groups to provide another level of rhythm that is separate from speed and tempo. A super rhythm, if I may, which is musically significant

One such musical relevance for the kaLai group of beats that we can feel is, say in 2 kaLai songs, each of the beats in the kaLai group has its own alternating high and low emphasis and secondly, we can sense instances where the song sometimes comes to a little rest on the first beat of the 2 beats and then takes off on the second. This can happen on any beat of the avartha. In one kaLai songs, such things are typically associated with the eduppu and the middle of the song. It seems to me that, though they are not followed consistently, such things are musically relevant and part and parcel of the song rather than something external.

[vasanthakokilam]

Keerthi wrote: So, the pallavi if in one kalai encompasses two Avarta-s of the tAla, in two kAlai, it will still use two Avarta-s and not one Avarta.

Keerthi: Sorry I did not pay proper attention to the above. So, when you wrote before about the 5 songs that "each of these songs exists in both one and two kalai versions.", are you saying that in these two versions, what is different is simply 1 tap or 2 taps to the 8 beats of adi? ( and, as you wrote, the number of reckoned avartas are the same ). If so, I do not have any issues with it at all. My only question is, that is a minor difference and not material,isn't it?

(My point was about taking a 2 kaLai song and unwinding it to a 1 Kalai reckoning. So in that case, one avartha in 2 Kalai will equal 2 avarthas in 1 kaLai reckoning which I said would not feel right due to stress point misalignment especially the arudhi... )

Nick, you asked above about my use of the word 'would not feel right' and if it is just abstract how you can agree/disagree. Fair point, but the issue is not just subjective.. We can talk about that if there is interest.

[keerthi]

Keerthi: Sorry I did not pay proper attention to the above. So, when you wrote before about the 5 songs that "each of these songs exists in both one and two kalai versions.", are you saying that in these two versions, what is different is simply 1 tap or 2 taps to the 8 beats of adi? ( and, as you wrote, the number of reckoned avartas are the same ). If so, I do not have any issues with it at all. My only question is, that is a minor difference and not material,isn't it?


(My point was about taking a 2 kaLai song and unwinding it to a 1 Kalai reckoning. So in that case, one avartha in 2 Kalai will equal 2 avarthas in 1 kaLai reckoning which I said would not feel right due to stress point misalignment especially the arudhi... )

I am not so sure.. As this thread got buried in the forum, I too lost the 'thread' of thought. Could you look at my recent posts in niyers thread and see if they resolve the doubt.

I haven't encountered any examples of stretching a 1 kali song into 2 kalai..

However,I have learnt the song dAcukOvalena in a khAnDa chApu version, [popular version is a mishra jhampa version] and somehow feel that my version is more natural, and is in keeping with tyAgarAja-s stylistics.

[but then, every song that I learnt from this particular teacher, I feel is the best pAthAntara, there is, probably since it represents a singly family oral parampara, untampered school.]

[the jhampa tAla version has impeccable pedigree, and mine won't stand a fighting chance against the Alathurs' and pattamma's and Brinda's and Muktha's parampara-s]

I haven't thought so much about kalai atall, as much as about kAla pramAna.. If we contemplate, and exegetically practise a song, it kind of reveals very distinct personae in the 1+ optimal kAlapramAna-s.

[vasanthakokilam]

Refer to the nice Hindolam RTP by Shakunthala Narasimhan that mankuthimma posted in the thread http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 67#p170067

This is not a quiz but more an illustrative example of the interesting and fun challenges in retrofitting a thala and kaLai to the pallavi of an RTP. This is related to the theme of this thread.

Do not listen to the very beginning where the thala is announced. Listen to the pallavi and see which thala(s) is a good fit along with the kaLai(s).
Provide your reasons for your thala and kaLai designation.
I will wait to provide my impressions on this ( not that I have any great insights to offer!!)