Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
Enna_Solven
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

Thank you akellaji.

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Ravikiran
Dr.S. Bagyalakshmi in her book' Lakshana granthas in Music' refers to the grantha Naradasiksha authored by Narada ~2000 years ago subsequent to Bharata. The book must be available in libraries or you can contact her at Trivandrum. She also refers to two works Naradeeyam, svararnavam by Narada but suggests that the two Naradas may be different.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear enna solven , thanks for providing me the analyses which has made this topic even more interesting. I think lot of people unwittingly contribute to the already rich compositions of great vaggeyakaras, when it was not called for. Lot of such compositions could be cited eg: Ye mani pogaadudhu in thodi for Shri Thyagaraja Swamy and similar additions for Shri Purandara dasa et al. These have been detected by musicologists and experienced musicians through the analyses of original vaggeyakara's style or rather methodology of writing. May be we should wait for an analyst to indicate in the compositions of Shri OVK both original and those contributed by his fans,( pin pointing the errors in compositions, which could not have been done by original vaggeyakaara ) pupil or anyone , as those in the case of trinities and other great personalities , so that senior pro like Shri MSAkella, Shri Nedanuri , Shri Balamurali or some musicologist of the caliber of Sri Sambashivan or 'Knew all , forget none" Avadhaanis of the caliber Shri Ganesh et al . could decide on this issue on our request

satyabalu
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

CM lover!could you get her contact mail/address ?Is the book a :) vailable for sale in English language? THQ for the information.You are also welcome to share in your own style as to the contents /salient features covered.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Contact:
CBH Publications
Sriganesh, North Amman koil St
Kamarajar Nagar, Vetturnimadom P.O.
Nagercoil 629003
email: cbhpub@gmail.com
Phone: (91) 04652 222813

The book is in English with profuse sanskrit quotes...
very interesting anthology, but not very relevant to the discussions on OVK here...

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

The posts above have proved to be very interesting and informative. However, the last few posts of Mr Shastry have degenerated considerably and his disparaging statements no longer lend credlbility to his apparent objectivity in his first post. It would benefit everyone if Mr Shastry limits himself to coherent responses to issues under the light.

1. Mr Shastry has claimed that Thyagaraja followed Swararnava. He has not mentioned the period of this treatise and nor given a list of ragas that have been listed in this publication., though he has claimed to have read it. I request him to fill this blank.

2. Mr Akella , who claims to be a responsible guru, musician, author has mixed up periods of all the composers he mentioned in this thread. He says Arunagirinathar came after Trinity. But he claims that music degenerated fromSarangadeva! Even Tyagaraja has revered Sarangadeva, Purandara Dasa and the likes. If Mr Akella says progress in laya and tala as dilution, one can only wonder if it is a case of sour grapes. Is he the self-appointed authority on what is proper and improper from Sarangadeva's times?!

3.
He quotes shri semmangudi srinivasa iyer and says OVK is on par with Trinity .But it will not be wise on our part consider that as a basis to compare him with trinity (with all due respect to shri semmangudi ). Some recent composers hold titles like ‘abhinava tyagaraja’ etc which doesn’t mean that they are on par with Shri Tyagaraja.
The above point of Mr Shastry proves most illogical and irreverential to me, being a great fan of the legendary Shri Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer. First of all, Semmangudi is hardly giving himself a self-certificate in this context, as wrongly portrayed by Mr Shastry. When a person with 80 years of performing, teaching and tuning experience like Semmangudi says that OVK is on par with trinity, it is the professional opinion of a seasoned expert, considered to be a legend in Carnatic music. Is Mr Shastry trying to match Semmangudi's musicianship or repertoire (of close to 2000 compositions) to refute a master's judgement and ask others to 'not accept' Semmangudi?

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry:

Why don't you express your regrets for having made such sweeping comments (in post #39) on a respectable fellow member Shri Ponbhairai, who has been making immense contributiton to promote Carnatic Music since 1982.

And why can't you withdraw those comments?

Your outburst only underlines how hastily you arrive at conclusions. With this exposure if we read your posts how much credibility should we give to your writings/claims?

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Hamsaji,Iam not degrading Semmangudi, no body can do.I like his music perhaps than you.He is a musician ,not a musicologist.He himself told once when he wrote a introduction to my book Asesha padmanabha samputa.his judgement will be a emotional one than a realistic historians.we have so many questions about ovks history, his judgement should be cleared there also .we respect elders,but ,for 'pratyaksha'also there should be a' pramaana'.even for 'veda vaakyam,needs pramaana;It applies to all ,including me,you &even semmangudi;If it is a truth we can have a upadesham from(baalaadapi,shukaadapi). our upanishads always says to question first;have a satisfactorial answers. Being a srividya upaasaka, i consider this as my bhagavathi's pooja.......,very shortly i will proove ovk is not on par with trinity.regarding ponbhairvi,I dont have any 'shatrutvam'; all musicians,rasikas are daiva swaroopam only ;my salutations to each &everybody.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry wrote: ... regarding ponbhairvi,I dont have any 'shatrutvam'; all musicians,rasikas are daiva swaroopam only ;my salutations to each &everybody.
Thanks.
srikanthamshastry wrote:... very shortly i will proove ovk is not on par with trinity.
This has no relevance to the heading of the thread.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

srikanthamshastry wrote:very shortly i will proove ovk is not on par with trinity.
The discussion in this thread has been fascinating. We all love the works of Trinity and OVK and any such comparison of who is on par with whom is not going to serve any purpose in this thread. It will only distract from the topic. Let us keep it to the topic at hand, namely the period of OVK. Thanks.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Rasikas will recall that I had been candid about my non-expertise about Srividya practices in my earlier posts. But over the last couple of days, I had the opportunity to discuss some of the queries raised here with some experts. I have highlighted below the feedback I received from them, with special relevance to OVK's Navavaranams.

1. Kaadi, Saadi and Haadi practices are indeed distinct in some details.

2. Though debates have raged about the merits and otherwise of each form, many people have had more than one guru and followed more than one school of thought. Therefore several times, practice overlaps are a reality.

3. Though Srividya worship itself has been highly open and liberal in approach (even to the extent of having a guru who was lower caste than the sishya), within each marga, a practitioner is either conservative or liberal. Conservatives (just like in other spheres) have their own opinions about certain things/practices/methods which could be at sharp deviance from others. But this is not treated as the only way.

4. The definition and concept of 'leaking' also could vary from person to person, school to school.

5. Scholars further contend that OVK has not 'leaked' beejaksharas any more than anyone else - say Dikshitar (who has also referenced beejaksharas in krtis like Srikamalambikayam (Sahana) or the beejakshara filled Shree rajarajeshwareem (Madhyamavati).

6. Most importantly, none of us know whether OVK or Dikshitar ever intended these compositions to be rendered in general concerts by artistes. It is more likely that they only conceived of these as part of their personal/family worship. And the songs have later percolated to the concert stage because enthusiastic artistes saw immense melodic/rhythmic value in these compositions.

7. If one were to cite either OVK or Dikshitar for leaking, what would one label Bhaskara Raya himself, who wrote elaborate bhashyas on the subject, which necessarily mentioned the beejaksharas? To sum it up, any opinions about leaking are retrospecive, subjective and speculative.
Regards, Ravikiran

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Sreenadh ji: I am glad you found the references you were looking for even before I responded. I will update all of you if I get fresh information on the subject.

CML sir: Thanks for the reference to Naradashiksha. This was perhaps another book that Prof SRJ was alluding to. Dr Bhagyalakshmi has done steller work in compiling information about such publications. It is of course clear that none of the Naradas who are credited with having authored any of these books are any relation to the celestial sage.

(On a personal note, thank you for your kind sentiments about my Ramayana. As I am still touring, I have asked a disciple to post the lyrics as soon as they are typed and formatted.)

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Even though this is off the topic of this thread I am compelled to write this following rejoinder.

hamsaa,
Even though I have very clearly mentioned that I am not at all worried about the periods but about the dilution made by the scholars in my post dated 06-05-2011 at 13:49 you have posted your comment on 07-05-2011 at 07:12 accusing me of mixing up the periods. Is it nice on your part, dear?

Yes, I, in the name of the Almighty, very proudly claim that I am a responsible Guru, responsible musician and responsible author of all times.

As I sincerely and dutifully feel the responsibility of the Guru, I have given-up the lucrative aritist-field right from the date of my retirement, I have myself brought out my incapacities publicly even through ‘The Hindu (08-01-2010)’, and strived hard in the extensive research of finding a more-reliable, time-bound, result-oriented system in teaching music, unlike any other musician on earth.

As I also feel the responsibility of an elderly-musician I have given-up the lucrative aritist-field right from the date of my retirement, strived hard in the extensive research of finding a more-reliable, time-bound, result-oriented system in teaching music and been propagating it, mostly even without expecting any monetary benefit from the true aspirants, unlike any other musician or music-teacher on earth.

As I also sincerely feel the responsibility of an author, I have spent four decades of my precious life in the extensive research of the un-solved topic, Talaprastara and brought out three books, Talaprastara Ratnakara, Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara-a critical interpretation and Systematisatiion of Prastara details of Deshi Talas and three books, Sangita Svararaga Sudha (along with one mp3 CD), Sangita Vidya Bodhini (along with three mp3 CDs) and Sangita Vidya Lochani (along with two mp3 CDs), in total six books among which each one is of its own kind, unlike any other author of books on music on the globe.

If you want to know the full details in which way Sharngadeva had diluted and mis-interpretted the Talaprastara you can go through the three books on Talaprastara which are available in the Carnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai. If you can prove that he did not dilute or mis-interpret the topic, Talaprastara, I shall pay you ten-lakhs of rupees but, on the condition that you have to pay me five-lakhs of rupees if you can’t. amsharma

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry wrote:... 'pratyaksha'also there should be a' pramaana ...
Please give the meaning so that everyone can understand what you say.
srikanthamshastry wrote:... baalaadapi,shukaadapi ...
Again, please post the full sloka with its meaning, name of author and the book.
Last edited by Pratyaksham Bala on 07 May 2011, 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

hamsaa
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Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

1. He is a musician ,not a musicologist.He himself told once when he wrote a introduction to my book Asesha padmanabha samputa.his judgement will be a emotional one than a realistic historians.
Mr Shastry, your emotional reply shows that you are jumping to post without analysing what is being said. Music is about experience , rasa anubhava. Not dry theory, grammar and bookish knowledge, which is useful only to some extent. Semmangudi sir's statement 'OVK is on par with trinity', is not just emotional. Everyone knows that he was one of the most intellectual artistes of our times. He was just being polite to you, out of his own humility. But his performing record, experience, repertoire of a wide range of Carnatic music's greatest composers, quality of musicianship, teaching experience, makes him a far better judge of quality of a composer like OVK than all the books anyone can quote.
2. we have so many questions about ovks history
Evidently you have not noticed that Shri Ravikiran has answered almost all questions you raised. It is your turn to answer the questions that others have raised, including me! You have not done that so far.
3. very shortly i will proove ovk is not on par with trinity
This clearly exposes your true agenda behind starting this thread !!

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Let us be objective and rational rather than 'ad hominems' and focussing on personalities.
Our contributions and investigations will be valuable if we add 'facts' as we know or can find out.
Sri Ravikiran as the lead investigator will be able to integrate the facts and sift them out objectively for the benefit of CM History.
This is an important historical topic on CM. Let it not degenerate into personal squabbles.
Thank you...

mannari
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Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear cmlover, i dont think any one is indulged in personal squabbles. On the other hand, one should appreciate the vehement arguments of every music lovers like leading writers on this topic including and upto Hamsa including yourself. The entry of msakella et al is only bonus as his experience is par our imagination. ( I have seen him giving a stupendous demonstration on music teaching methodology at Madras music accademy last year, wherein he was introduced as having over 5 decades of experience as high level pro both in performance and teaching. which i think exceeds the age of both sri Ravikiran and sri Shasthri ). Let us see what Sri Shasthri ( " i have done some research on ovks compositions,& its chandas, shabda prayoga,yathi, prasa, vadi etc..,&same will be shared here in future.thanking you all," Srikantham nagendra shastry) Till such time no one need come to any conclusion like Hamsa ( This clearly exposes your true agenda behind starting this thread !!
hamsaa) as I said earlier any musicologist of proven class and stature may decide after analyzing both the findings. Till such time I wish you all a happy observations . enjoy the debate ! Enna Solven go ?

Enna_Solven
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

mannari wrote: enjoy the debate ! Enna Solven go ?
:grin:

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear mannari, Yes, what you wrote is absolutely true. Our responsible duty is only to bring out or arrive at or to give flawless material to the posterity unlike some of our ancestors but not for personal squabbles at all. Thank you. amsharma

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Hi,

Let me, first of all, make it clear that none of my comments are personal and I never intended to harm anyone's feelings. My fight is and always will be against those ideas which initiated as rumours and got accepted as facts over the course of time without any substantiation. Let me re-assert here that all my comments are backed by proofs which I'm always ready to share with others. Again, I see many posts asking for my reply. I don't think I have left any questions unanswered. And if there is any, I'm sorry to miss those and is ready to answer them if any of you point it out to me.

I don't want to repeat my points but OVK is in no way related to Bhaskara Raya. I challenge all those people who claimed otherwise hitherto to prove me wrong if they can.The lineage of Bhaskara Raya is very well documented. His guru parampara is also well known. And no where, in any of these books, the name of OVK is found. Also, for a srividya upasaka, his guru is everything. It is really astounding and baffling to note that a composer who has penned more than 800 compostions (as many claim) never paid his tribute or even mentioned the name of his guru.

I still stand by my statement that OVK is not at par with the trinities. Here, I'm forced to present the reasons why I said so in the form of analysis of a few kritis. (Ofcourse the work OVK has done to spread carnatic music, if any, can never be compared to that of trinities. Also, his lineage, if present, is no where to that of trinities by any standards.)

Prologue (those who already know these, please excuse me): Sarngadeva in his work sangitaratnakara mentions four types of vaggeyakaras: uthama, madhyama, adhama and kuttikkara. Those who compose both maatu (lyrics) and dhaatu (music) simultaneously are considered as great composers. But even these composers are to follow certain rules. All the great composers from purandara dasa, kanaka dasa, etc. to present day composer Dr. Balamuralikrishna have followed these rules in all their musical and literary works. Some of the must follow rules are given below:

1) Stanzas or padams should not have odd number of lines excluding one, ie, it can have one line, two lines or four lines etc.

2) Prasa: There are so many prasas which are used commonly to add beauty to the kavya. But there is one prasa which is a must in literary works, dwitiyakshara prasa. In this, the second letter of the first word in every should be the same. The composers' brilliance is evident by his usage of totally different words having different meanings but with the second letter repeating in every line. All the great composers (musicians and poets) have followed this rule. It is clear from a first look into all the compositions(eeshwara kavi says in kavijivha bandhanam as a composition without dvithiyakshara prasam is equivalent to a body without life). The dwitiyaksharaprasam is maintained in pallavi-anu pallavi and then in charanam a different letter can be used for the prasam. Even this was a relatively modern practice approx. from the period of trinity. Before that, the whole prabandham was to follow a single aksharam for dwitiyakshara prasam. Eg: Veena Padmanabhayya's Saakethadhipam Bhavaye in shudha velavali.Only some of the post trinity composers did the odd avarthanams, prasabhangam. So, this also indicates that OVK is a post trinity composer.

Analysis of OVK's ganesha dhyanam in shanmukhapriya:
The lyrics of OVK navavaranams are available at http://carnatica.net/lyrics/ooth9.pdf

In the pallavi itself the dwitiyakshara prasam is broken. The first words in pallavi are sriganesha and srividyopasana... But in anupallavi it is again maintained for sriganesha by the words yagayoga and ragarahita but in the madhyamakala sahityam it is again lost. In charanam, it is maintained upto the first line of madhyamakalam from where a totally different akshara takes the second place.
Compare it with dikshitar's composition saraswati manohari (http://sahityam.net/wiki/Sarasvati_Manohari) which is also having a madhyamakala in pallavi. But the dwitiyakshara prasa is beautifully maintained by dikshitar by the words sarasvati, sarasiruhakshi, and murahara and in charanam it is maintained by akara, prakasa, prakalpita and vikalpa...

Moving on to the language part, sandhi is taken for granted at some places but for the sake of music it is sometimes used as a single word and some times as a two different words.
Eg: varada+abhaya = varadabhaya
analasala+antargata = analasalantargata
Using the same word for prasam (except for yamaka alankaram where the same word is used for a different meaning) is considered poor in the literature field. The word nayaka, sundara etc. has been used for the sake of prasam repeatedly in this kriti without any different sense to it.

OVK gives the adjectives srividyopasana bodhakara (in pallavi) and panchayatnaprapooja nayaka (in anupallavi) to ganesha which is not true. First of all, Ganesha is no where mentioned as srividyopasana bodhakara (i.e one wo preaches srividya). It is either hayagreeva/dakshinamurti/agasthya/lopamudra/manmatha/indra etc. depending on the srividya margam. For the second adjective, I have to explain what a panchayatana is. In a panchayatana, the main deity is kept in the middle where the diagonals of a square intersect and four other devatas are kept on four corners of the square. In srividya, ganesha is placed on a corner not in the center, i.e ganesha is not the nayaka(main deity) of the panchayatana. In charanam, ganesha has been praised as brindaraka sena nayaka (sena nayaka of the devas). Ganesha is the nayaka of ganas( gananayaka) never of brindarakas (devas). It is shaanmukha, he is the deva sena nayaka.

Also, note that the number of lines is 3 in pallavi which is odd both mathematically and literally. It is avartha bhangam. In other words, a stanza is not allowed to have odd number of lines. The same trend is followed in anu-pallavi and charanam by having 6 avartanams and 12 avartanams instead of 4 and 8 or 16.

There a few other bhangams also in this kriti which I'm not mentioning here ( this is already a lengthy post).

Quoting Valmiki here,
"Paada badhoksharah samaha,
tantri layasamanvitaha"

OVK who has saluted valmiki has not followed his words for sure.

Also, in the next posts, a complete analysis of the sahithya and sangeetha of inidvidual compositions of OVK would be given. This is just to understand and analyse OVK and his compositions but in no way to insult him.

sampath
Posts: 3
Joined: 08 May 2011, 10:47

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sampath »

It is a fantastic post about OVK which has posted by shrikantham shastry sir. It would be great if the same kind of explanation about the chandhas and vyakarana of various compositions by various composers is discussed in this forum. This would help us understand and learn lot of information and get facts about great composers instead of blindly accepting some statements/rumours spread by a few.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry wrote:Let me begin by restating the question of interest here: Is OVK a pre-trinity composer? I'm repeating the topic because most of the discussions going on was regarding the quality and quantity of work by OVK except for some prompt replies. If it is about the contribution of OVK to the karnataka music fraternity, no doubt, it is great ...
Read your own post!
Please follow your own direction! Stick to the topic.

As for the questions unanswered by you, please go through the posts. You will find several of them. Finding them may not be a difficult task.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear sirs, first of all I am honored by msakella's reply (#69 - msakella
Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer? » 08 May 2011 06:53

Dear mannari, Yes, what you wrote is absolutely true ...) Thats like getting Brahmarshi award from sage Vasishta !. coming in order, thanks for enna solven"s bright smile. A breaf gesture like that enlivens the things. I am aghast at Pratyaksham Bala's remarks on Sri Shasthri. I dont think Sri Shasthri has , at any stage, deviated from the topic. Instead he has got erratic reply from many for his simple question ( p s first 6 posts on this topic ). I am amazed again by his knowledge and analytical skills. I think sri Ravi kiran will be compelled to think if some of the krithis of OVK has been unwittingly written by some half=baked pots , ( atleast i am convinced earlier itself as in the case of spurious inclusions of krithis as that of great composers) out of sheer fanatic obsession over sri OVK. OR if sri OVK himself has written those, then it is obvious he is not at all on par with trinities or nowhere near air tight grammatical or lilting compositions of great composers . One can understand what Sri shasthri is saying on prasas if one glance at Sri MDikshithar's " maDHU muDHA moDHItha hruDHAye saDhAye ...... as in madhyama kaala sahithya of legendry Meenakshi Memudham in Poovi Kalyani or Sri Jayadeva's " LALIthaLAvngaLAthaaparisheeLAnakomaLAmaLAyasameere...or aLIkuLAsankuLA kuSUmaSamoohaniraakuLAbakuLAkaLAApe.. and karathaLAthaaLAtaraLAvaLAyaavaLIkaLIthakaLA..( a sample glimse of Geetha Govinda's- prathama sarga' ashtapadi 2 and 3).. Even our time greats like sri DVG gives classics like ' yuGA yuGadindaLI, jaGAke ninnoLAvina sobaGAni soosuthe naGutha nindiheyaa ? muGudanaaGI nolpanim sobaGIna keshavam muGIya dee sarasavu baGEvaradaare.. ( charana of sri DVG's VeenaPaani in Anthahpura Geethe. MS Subbulakshmi was aghast at his skill and even sang a song in Yedukulakamboji, which is on record )... ball is now set rolling !!!

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

This post will deal with Sankeernam. It was stated that the jati was not mentioned till recent times.

However, a look at Poluri Govinda Kavi's Tala Dasha Prana Pradeepika (reputed to have been in late 1600s-early 1700s) work proves otherwise.

He mentions Sankeernam as 9, along with the other jatis.

This, coupled with the song mentioned in the Saraswati Mahal Library publication - clearly counters the original contention that this was a recent concept.

I have conclusively and point-wise answered all fresh queries raised in the post - sankeernam, navavarana schools included.

I have also addressed a few other questions, even though they are outdated, since answers have already been given to them in detail in my book and several subsequent articles.

I think we can all safely conclude that given the evidence we have - (a) family records, (b) external corraborations and (c) the brilliant works of Venkata Kavi himself, his accepted period cannot be off by more than a few decades, at the most.

Sincerely, Ravikiran

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

chitravina ravikiran:
Thanks a lot.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Rasikas,

I am starting a new thread devoted to value-assessment of OVK's works, since this thread is not appropriate for such a huge subject.

Ravikiran

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

MODS:
You may consider locking this thread.

vidya
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vidya »

Just wanted to place this on the record here.

1.Prof.SRJ said he was aware of manuscripts ending with the name "ArNava" such as RAgArNava etc in the Saraswati Mahal library. He says he has not perused the
contents of this particular Kannada work, "svarArNava". He says he has seen some references to these in Dr.V.Raghavan's, "Later Sangita Literature"
He however feels that the Narada-Tyagaraja legend is mythology.

2.He is also of the opinion that the Sangraha cUdAmani cannot be earlier than 1750 based on its musical contents.

As for the period of Oothukkadu Venkatakavi he has not opined either way :)
Last edited by vidya on 09 May 2011, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.

musicfan_4201
Posts: 199
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:34

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by musicfan_4201 »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: Read your own post!
Please follow your own direction! Stick to the topic.

As for the questions unanswered by you, please go through the posts. You will find several of them. Finding them may not be a difficult task.

Very unusal of your normal tone.
Perhaps gratuating to become a mod here :)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

musicfan_4201, carrying a grudge long term, as evidenced by your being a pest about it in unrelated threads, in not good for your health :)

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Mr Shastry,

1. Again I would recommend that you read Shri Ravikiran's book "Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi - Life and Contributions". It will give you answers for all the points you have posted in post no. 70

2. One striking point that I wanted to clarify immediately was at how you have jumped at making shallow points even without analysing and understanding the words used by the composer and instead presumed the meaning yourself.

You have clearly gotten confused between the words 'bodha' and 'bodhana' and given the wrong meaning for the phrase 'shreevidyOpAsana bOdhakara' in Shree Ganeshwara

bOdha is not the same as bOdhana.

Here are some interpretations of the word 'bOdha' for your understanding. I hope this will help you understand that OVK has not meant that Ganeshwara is preaching Srividya upasana

(H2) बोध [p= 734,2] [L=145794] mfn. knowing , understanding Asht2a1vS. (cf. g. ज्वला*दि)
(H2B) बोध [L=145795] m. waking , becoming or being awake , consciousness AV. MBh. &c

3. Pls read Shri Ravikiran's informative and point-perfect new thread "Value of OVK's contributions" in which he has answered your points on Shree Ganeshwara

4. I would also like you to answer so many questions about svararnava that were asked in earlier posts. You have not yet answered any of them

I wonder who ghost-wrote your latest post because many of the akshara bhangas(spelling errors) and lakshana bhangas (grammatical errors) that are usually present, seem to be missing !!!!! :grin: :)

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Hamsa,your name is a ultimate one. 'para nindana' should not be there. You are calling whom as ghost? :devil: . it is in you :devil: :devil: don't use such words, which will lead you to the same. 'Yam yam vaapi smaran bhaavam tyajatyam kalevaram/tam tamevaiti kounteya sadaa tad bhaavitah//(one who has good or bad thoughts in his mind,ultimately he will attain the same.)'Iam not an english scholar;I even dont have computer knowledge also.(languages are only the means of communication;I am not writing any compositions here;If there is any grammatical mistake ,kindly rectify &read it. mine may be 'a baala bhaasha' having spelling mistakes;but remember,'Sarva bhaashaamayee Saraswati'.I know that Srividyabhagavathi is with me;she is only inspiring me to do this to unearth the truth.You asked a ragas list in swararnavam;It will be posted soon.For every word several meanings will be there in dictionaries.Bodha is such one;here it is used as I had quoted before. here Panchayatana nayaka is not Ganeshwara.Please keep the sahitya beside you & then you only can observe that, the 'dwiteeyaaksara praasas' are incorrect. May the blessings of Srividya bhagavathi be on you.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear sirs/madams, while thanking all the active participants for their exhaustive debate, I would like to express my following opinions :- 1) While sri Ravikiran has given wide range of works on OVK ( i even attended one of his OVK aaraadhana at BGSamaja couple of years back wherein, a madhyamavathi kruthi dominated the show for the saahithya and its meaning which was also so similar to old mysore veelya jaanapada geethe, sung during daughters' send off to in laws place ) , very little is done towards the detailed analysis of his kruthis, some of which has been exposed by Sri Shasthri, as regards to elementary errors in dwitheeya akshara prasaas, which rises doubt about his actual time. Does OVK composed these after trinity's period or is it the handiwork of someone else ?

2) More and more kruthis of ovk should be analysed in similar manner so that the credit due to his should be in its place and not an iota of doubt about the original compositions should arise. Analysis of several kruthis is the only answer as to time and place ( desha and kaala ) of the poet. I re-iterate Sri Shasthris words that these are and should not be aimed at discrediting the legend or insulting anyone. But to bring out the best learn more truths and realities of OVK. ( I wonder whether OVKs decedents are there now ?)

3) I request dear Hamsa to confine to comments or opinions on the topic or discussion alone, which are good right now. Commenting on the language or grammatical errors of musicologist is in poor taste. Hamsa ksheera nyaaya should be followed!! . we should not try to cold splash anyone on these lines. Only waste knowledge or analytical skills of musicologists should be taken and not the level of expression. It is logical if an english professor from Oxford commits g_errors and not musicologists.

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Now that shri Ravi kiran in his post 74 has summed up the final conclusion and driven the nails firmly and as the initiator of the thread in his latest posting has not added anything pertinent to the point, let us say
May shri OVK's BODY rest in peace in his pre trinity grave away from ghosts.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

I too made some errors , which may give wrong signals . Please read, ... credit due to HIM (instead of HIS) and VAST knowledge instead of WASTE knowledge at appropriate place. Hamsaa, please pardon me for the errors.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

But ghosts are already there with their viththanda vaadas , nails are driven only on coffins and not on truths

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

sri ponbhairavi, if ravikiran summedup&stopped writing without clarifications about ovks mistakes,didnot means that this is the end ;ovk willnot be in pre trinity grave because, he was not born at that time Pl. don't kill ovk before his 'janmam'.

Enna_Solven
Posts: 827
Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

srikanthamshastry wrote:sri ponbhairavi, if ravikiran summedup&stopped writing without clarifications about ovks mistakes,didnot means that this is the end ;ovk willnot be in pre trinity grave because, he was not born at that time Pl. don't kill ovk before his 'janmam'.
1. Your post #1: "Since the very purpose of any inquiry or questioning is to find truth ,I hope these queries lead to a meaningful discussion and if possible to a logical conclusion ."

I say this again: You came in with a conclusion but concealed it with words that sounded as if you had an open mind for discussion. Taking others for granted is not polite.

2. There are two people writing under the id: "srikanthamshastry". I don't know if it is against the forum rules but it is not polite either.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

srikanthamshastry wrote:sri ponbhairavi, if ravikiran summedup&stopped writing without clarifications about ovks mistakes,didnot means that this is the end
I can understand that it is hard to keep all the various lines of the arguments straight. But you have not addressed or accepted or provided counter arguments to many of the clarifications Sri. Ravikiran had already provided. Instead you started a new line of arguments about OVK's lyrical and prAsA mistakes. if we go back to the initial posts, it started with a few well stated points from your side which Sri. Ravikiran had addressed more than once. There was also another link posted which addresses many of the issues you had raised.

Let us first wrap those lines of arguments of the debate : either agree or provide your counter points or agree to disagree and move on. Rest of the members here can judge for themselves based on the quality of the arguments presented. Let us do that, if necessary, before we go on in new directions that do not serve any purpose in establishing the time period of OVK.

It will be useful if you also provided your hypothesis/theory about the period of OVK and your well researched reasons for that.

Our members are interested in looking at both sides of the issue. It is normal in a debate involving two sides to talk up their side and point faults in the arguments of the other side. But debaters normally acknowledge any fair points made by the other side. So please acknowledge if any of your points have been adequately addressed by Sri. Ravikiran. We owe him at least that.

P.S. ghost-writing simply means that one is writing on another person's behalf. Stating it here so we do not start a discussion on that distraction. Please refrain from ghost-writing, if that is indeed the case here.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Even though the questions raised in this thread have been completely addressed by me and I have moved on to another thread, I am compelled to address some misinformation that I came across. My interest is to ensure that people are not misled.

1)
Stanzas or padams should not have odd number of lines excluding one, ie, it can have one line, two lines or four lines etc.
These are opinions written as guidelines by theoreticians of various eras based on what they studied and/or believed in. Practical music, which combines melody, rhythm and lyrics in various interesting ways is an infinitely bigger subject. Numerous examples of what have been claimed as doshas can be cited here. These are not doshas at all. These are the very beauty of our great system which is constantly expanded by brilliant minds through processes of evolution or revolution. Tradition, as GNB often said, is not a frozen thing but a constant dynamic process.

1. One of the most well known songs will establish this beyond contest.

Mahaganapatim - Nattai - Muttuswami Dikshitar (MD) - Chaturashra Ekam.

How many cycles of tala does this have in Pallavi? Three.

What is the 2nd syllable in the opening line? hA (mahA) What is the 2nd syllable in the madhyamakala in Pallavi? si. (VasiShTa vAmadEvAdi)

Perhaps, the poster is not familiar with this song?

2. Now, an example from the song the poster has himself mentioned - Saraswati Manohari (which I had the privilege of learning from the inimitable Brindamma).

How many lines does anupallavi have? Three.

3. Another well known song: Vatapi - AP = 3 cycles.

4. Moving on to Tyagaraja, how many lines do Shree manini (Poornashadjam) and Evarichira (Madhyamavati) have? Three again...

I can give hundreds more. But my point is not that. It is more that these are all not doshas if seen in the works of mega composers with proven track record such as Dikshitar, Tyagaraja, SS or OVK level composers. They sought to expand and explore newer frontiers, keeping one thing uppermost in their inspired and scholarly minds - their personal artistic visions. [/i]

However, if composers of lesser merit employ such things, they would no doubt be viewed as flaws.
But there is one prasa which is a must in literary works, dwitiyakshara prasa. In this, the second letter of the first word in every should be the same.
Again, incorrect. The poster would do well to study literature from North India, South India and learn more about this. Does the poster know, for instance that Kalidasa or Valmiki have not employed much of dwitiyakshara prasa? Does the poster know the reason behind use of dwitiyakshara prasa seen in some Sanskrit literature? Since that is not in context here, I will not bore readers with this. Suffice to say that another 'dosha' has been negated.

Also, note that the number of lines is 3 in pallavi which is odd both mathematically and literally. It is avartha bhangam. In other words, a stanza is not allowed to have odd number of lines. The same trend is followed in anu-pallavi and charanam by having 6 avartanams and 12 avartanams instead of 4 and 8 or 16.

The other thread covers this point but let me share a common sense perspective of it here. Cycle count of madhyamakalas are obviously half of what they would be in normal speed, since they are rendered at twice the speed.

2 cycles of normal speed + 1 cycle of double speed = 4 cycles of everything in normal speed.

Any student practising sarali varishais would be aware of this. Yet, the poster does not? Again, at surface level, it seems like a big point but it cannot hold water even with someone at a sarali varishai level.

To sum it up, reading a few books and quoting selectively does not add up to erudition. It is not even knowledge. It is just random pieces of improperly digested information. Music is about observing realities from various sources, listening, learning, contemplating extensively, analysing deeply, gaining vast experience and then evaluating carefully. Sometimes, the process can take years. It needs tons of patience, objectivity and humility. Hasty studies with wrong intent and negative mindsets about great people is not research. It can be dangerous and self-defeating.

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Thank you Ravikiran ji for another point-perfect and informative post!

Mr Shastry,

1. I would like to add 2 more examples to Shri Ravikiran's list of Dikshitar krtis that have odd number of avartanams in the pallavi.

a. Shree guruguha - Devakriya - Roopakam (Pallavi has 5 avartanams)
b. Amba neelAyatAkshi - Neelambari - Adi (Pallavi has 3 avaratanams)

So this proves that you know as little about Dikshitar as you know about OVK

2.
For every word several meanings will be there in dictionaries.Bodha is such one;here it is used as I had quoted before.
I wonder whether OVK himself preached the meaning to you for that phrase, through the invoked blessings of Srividya Bhagavati?


3.
brindaraka sena nayaka (sena nayaka of the devas).
Again, wrong lyrics. Correct one is nAyaka vara brndAraka which means Lord of the devas, not commander of Devas

4. You seem to be so kind to yourself about your bhangas, but so hasty and happy to scavenge for other people's mistakes!

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

..
Last edited by Ponbhairavi on 10 May 2011, 10:27, edited 1 time in total.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs I am saddened by the way this debate is going on. I think most people are possessive and try to stick to their views without giving scant respect to the views of the other. In this manner the very purpose and spirit of the discussion is lost. For the first time i feel Ravikiran has erred in replying politely in his post no.90. Mentioning or citing examples of sarale varse to a musicologist or musician of repute will only discredit one's stature. It will be like spitting on sun. nothing short of it. If on expresses his or her opinion it is individual. who are we to make statement or jump to conclusion on selfless vaggeyakaras on who's creations many are making a living or millions have derived pleasure ? Statement without essence will hardly make difference and there can not be any buyers. Any way I am waiting for Sri Shasthris reply and reaction. I hope for the difference in approach while answering.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, let us avoid off-hand remarks that may belittle the messengers in the debate. For 99% of the debate, it has been kept that way and it is healthy. Let us stick to the main topic. In fact, all of this could have been avoided if the topic of OVK-vs-Trinity and the evaluation of OVK krithis based on lakshana and lakshaya was not brought into the mix. ( the latter aspect has been moved to a different thread )

There is no need to hurry and wrap up this conversation as a few people have indicated. As long as it is civil even when it is contentious, that should be OK.

satyabalu
Posts: 915
Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

*came to know of his composition "Sundara Natarajam" Karaharapriya.(see another thread of Ravikiran.
*Has anyone rendered this -available as link?Ravikiran can provide?
*TVG may help with his enthusiastic downloads in virtual time!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

satyabalu

Here is a vocal rendition of Sundara natarajam by Chitravina Shri Ravikiran from a live recording of an OVK special concert at Carnatica's sahityanubhava fest

Accompanists : R K Sriramkumar - violin
Guruvayoor Dorai - Mrdangam

http://carnatica.net/shopping/product_i ... cts_id/103

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sureshvv »

mannari wrote:Sirs I am saddened by the way this debate is going on <snip> Mentioning or citing examples of sarale varse to a musicologist or musician of repute will only discredit one's stature.
Please don't be saddened. Sometimes Professors in Physics have to be reminded of Newton's laws. This does not diminish their stature in anyway. Just makes them more human.

sampath
Posts: 3
Joined: 08 May 2011, 10:47

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sampath »

I am referring to the post number 90, where Ravikiran sir makes a remark saying that shastry sir does not know saralai varshai!! I feel a musician of his kind should not make a remark about another musician this way. If he feels some point is invalid or not answered, he may point it out, but making such harsh statements insults!! I believe that this is not the intention of the discussion. Only when knowledge is accompanied with politeness and courteousness, it will glitter. I hope such things don't happen repeatedly. It will simply change the direction in which the discussion is heading!!

sampath
Posts: 3
Joined: 08 May 2011, 10:47

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sampath »

Again in post 91, the way hamsaa has replied to shastry sir is ridiculous. If you have great respect for Ravikiran sir, its good! Absolutely fine. But showing disrespect to another musician is shameful. You try to decide what shastry sir knows and what he does not know in your post. Let me remind you, this discussion is about OVK and not about how much Shastry sir or Ravikiran sir knows. Its better if you make not of this. You further make a point that shastry sir is trying to scavenge mistakes. Ofcourse, that is the whole point. One is trying to find the possible mistakes in others and trying to convey the actual meaning, with a good intent and to arrive at an appropriate conclusion. It is not to humiliate others. If you are not willing to take any of these and discuss, please back off.. this is not the place for you. You can contact Ravikiran sir later and ask what conclusion they have arrived at!!!

Singer_USA
Posts: 38
Joined: 21 Jul 2008, 09:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Singer_USA »

Mannari,

People making a big deal out of doshas and bhangas of divine composers should not cry foul when their own doshas and bhangas are pointed out. Shri.Ravikiran has already made it clear that there is nothing personal in it. To be able to compare songs of Trinity and OVK, one must have studied several compositions in both categories carefully. Readers would agree that Mr.Shastri has not demonstrated that. Any one who has learnt singing basic lessons in multiple speeds would be able to figure out that OVK has composed pallavi lines in multiples speeds and it not wrong. If he has clear understanding, Mr.Shastri would not have said that OVK wrongly composed 3 lines in pallavi.

While MD has employed such techniques in the simple but popular composition Mahaganapatim, and Mr.Shastri claims that Trinity has not done such things, what do you understand?

It does not sound like Mr.Shastri has studied compositions of Trinity and OVK well enough to draw comparisons.

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