Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear sureshvv , i think you got me totally wrong in your post # 97, when you said " Sometimes Professors in Physics have to be reminded of Newton's laws" I was referring the other way. It does not bring credit to the person who makes impolite comments on other person irrespective of what the other person is ' let alone a person of stature. "Yes master" attitude will not bring the facts out. on the other hand , one will be giving wrong signal to a person who is thriving hard to prove a point or two !

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Let me hasten to make it clear that my posts are about issues. And I have endeavoured to focus on the issues and clarified every one of them, as best as possible.

The issue in this instance is that anyone who claims erudition enough to 'prove bhangas and doshas' of mahAnubhAvas and misses such a fundamental fact like speeds and tala counts and repeatedly lists it as a mistake of the composer, leaves himself/herself wide open for credentials to be questioned. This is nothing against any individual.

Composers of the stature of Trinity or OVK are oceans of nectar and beauty. They cannot be measured with or by teaspoons in a lifetime - I include myself in the spoon category. We can approach them with humility and get to savour their works and enrich ourselves...

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Sirs, when i read post 90 of a great vidwan trying to remind me the basics when i pointed out the doshas of OVK 's composition, if someone says: "These are the very beauty of our great system " i do not know how to react to say the least ! I am again trying to clarify this for the last time , in the interest of our heritage and music, not to convince someone having obstinate ideas. I am not going to react any further for i am convinced it is futile to explain over and again for the same points . Instead I will try to give the analyses of more OVK's composition , certainly not to defame or insult a musician ( like i was insulted repeatedly for trying to bring out the truth) as often as possible . I furnish the following details again for any fair people to decide as they deem fit and appropriate.

* On odd avartha topic few references are given in post 90 and obviously seconded without a thought in post 91 citing two more kruthis. They are " Mahaganapathim, Vathapi, Saraswathi Manohari etc.,. The three avarthas so practiced is the contribution of musicians after the trinities for which composers are not responsible !. The proper methodology of singing these odd avrthas should be done by singing in madhyama kala once, then the same sahithya should be sung in keeulkaala next. ie, exactly similar to the sarale varase : once in 1st kaala, twice in second kaala and 4 times in 3 rd kaala. The solution so given by sri Purandaradasa in bala pata should be known to musical prodigy , i am sure. { in mahaganapathim , what i mean as correct method is : " Vasista vaama devadi vanditha should first be sung in madhyama kala and same in Keelkala and again in Madhyama kala so that odd avarthas do not occur.) It is the responsibility of the singers and one who scripts sahithya with notation , to ensure this . Whether any significant work has been done to avoid these odd avarthas in OVK's compositions by the prodigy who cites saralevarse for wrong reasons ?

* Since the truth is always bitter, if anyone points out these odd avarthana mistakes committed by famous vidwans, the person indicating these will always be ridiculed for what some people do will become a law by itself even if it is wrong as per paddhathi. The post proudly says that Saraswathi Manohari kruthi was learnt from a legend. Very good. But no one noticed , including child prodigy, the error in method of singing the portion " Saraseehuraakshi in 1st kaala and Murahara Sodari in madhyama kaala thus creating odd avartha , which is a blunder. Agreed that same has been printed in several books , preached and practiced in similar ways including true legends. The actual and correct method of tackling this is : the entire portion from sarasihurakhi to murahara sodari , should either be sung in madhyama kaala ot do the thrikaala of the same as in sarale varse ( for which i thank the poster for reminding me ). The reward i get for mentioning this truth is the polite remarks as in post 90 like
" reading a few books and quoting selectively does not add up to erudition. It is not even knowledge. It is just random pieces of improperly digested information " I wonder who is in need of the same !.

* Thanks for the free advice and teaching liberally. Sorry sirs. i may not accept the same for my ancestors in Chintalapally Parampara, having over 800 years of documented history , is just not a couple of generations . My ancestors learnt from accepted great personalities like " Valajpet VRB, Pallavi Sheshayya, Mysore Sadashiva Rao, Karur Ramaswamappa, Ponniah Pilley, Palghat Anantha rama bhagavatar, Panju Iyyer etc, Many of my earlier ancestors like Sangeetha Raya Thimmanna, even received award from AdilShaw of Bahamani kingdom got award in 1610, OVK was not even born ! My immediate heads of two generations , My great grand father Chintala palli Venkata Rao and my Grand father Chitala palli Ramachandra Rao donned 'aasthana vidwan in several royal courts including Mysore , with whom this writer had the reasonably lengthier period of learning the several traditional finer aspects of music including on how to tackle odd avarthas. I am willing to demonstrate this to anyone on any forum

* At another instance , the same poster says Subbarama Dixitar was unaware of Annamacharya ! This proves that SSP has not been read properly. Because SDixitar has clearly refers "Pedda and Chinna Thirumalacharya and Thalapakkam Composers. Persons who spends more time on latching on somebody's grammatical errors like limpets should at least question the person instead of nodding for everything. OVK was not a Bhaskara raya's pupil at all. when this was proved irrefutably why no one questions the person who stated the otherwise ?

* Regarding dwithiyaakshara Prasa, It is the wonderful innovation and invention of South Indian literature . Valmikhi, Kalidasa, Dandi, Bhasa et al, belong to North India and hence followed NI culture which concentrate more on AnthyaPrasa , Anuprasa etc., BUT almost all our South Indian poets like " Kamba ( Tamil), Nannaya (Telugu) , Pampa and Kumaravyasa (Kannada ) , Eluthachchan ( Malayalam) etc, who were inspired by these great works of NI poets and either created their own poetry or translated, have compulsorily followed dwithiyaakshara prasa in their works. Also 'Kurul and Vennba' in Tamil, Haridasa Sahithya in Kannada, Badrachala Ramadasa and even Trinities in Telugu and Sanskrit have followed this as Sacrosanct . Our time greats like upto Dr BalamuraliKrishna have not violated this rule either , If OVK 's compositions contains these errors, it is there for every one to see where OVK 's order is . Can he be compared with trinities ?. What can one say about people who give examples of North Indian poets as examples for south Indian niceties ? They must study south indian literature right from basics thoroughly or ratherThey should read post 90 and follow what they preach others. Neither the Praasa, nor meaning should be at fault along with appropriate chandas to be a good vaggeyakaaras like trinities. I finally reiterate that OVK's parts of the kruthis do contain some errors , which are found in abundance with modern composers . Therefore these errors keep reflecting the fact that OVK is NOT a pretrinity composer nor possessed the standards of trinity. Hence forth all my reply ( if at all i decide to react ) will only pertain to the topic in the interest of our heritage not as reply to some impertinent or rude questions.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

On odd avartha topic - The three avarthas so practiced is the contribution of musicians after the trinities for which composers are not responsible
If so, how is it a dOSha of only OVK?!!
The proper methodology of singing these odd avrthas should be done by singing in madhyama kala once, then the same sahithya should be sung in keeulkaala next. ie, exactly similar to the sarale varase : once in 1st kaala, twice in second kaala and 4 times in 3 rd kaala.
This argument is absolutely with no authority. It is contrary to all practices of our great system. The proof of the flaw of this statement is obvious - not even the trinities' disciples have followed this, going by the well known fact that their versions have been handed down faithfully till date. Can the poster show a single disciple who has rendered in the way the poster prescribes above? Can the poster show a single treatise which says Madhyamakalas should be rendered thus?
The solution so given by sri Purandaradasa in bala pata should be known to musical prodigy
Indeed, yes! And it was not given for songs with Madhyamakalas! It was for varishais. Songs with odd avartanas are just that. And I repeat, they are not dOShas - whether it is MD, OVK or Tyagaraja.
" Saraseehuraakshi in 1st kaala and Murahara Sodari in madhyama kaala thus creating odd avartha"
The poster has omitted the examples of Shree Manini and Evarichira of Tyagaraja with 3 avartanas, which are not in Madhyamakala!!!.
Regarding dwithiyaakshara Prasa
I have addressed OVK's brilliant command of not only South Indian but also North Indian prAsa rules in the other thread. I refer the poster to kindly go over those.
If OVK 's compositions contains these errors, it is there for every one to see where OVK 's order is . Can he be compared with trinities ?.
We have to be consistent and take our pick. Examples have been given to prove that both OVK and Trinity have done this. Either
(a) everyone is breaking rules now and then (b) everyone has shown they know the rules but have chosen expanded the system.

Readers can make their own conclusions...

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear sirs, with post # 102 , sri Ravikiran is back with what is needed. More of subject and politeness. But sri Shastry appears to vent out all that he has unjustly taken, with so many details, it will take quite a bit of time for a commoner or simple music lovers to know and come in terms of the complicity involved. I feel sri Shastry could have been more diplomatic and polite in narration. In the next post Sri Ravikiran 's analyses to furious and harsh comments on OVK hurled, is to the point and polite. This is the hall mark of all learned ones and liked by all. Now that it is squared and a tie, in next T20 arguements can we expect more precise and healthy debate ?. My conclusion is USA has erred in not appointing these two analysts. They would have easily traced Osama much earlier with all the details with comparisions with their skill and knowledge alone !

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Sampath ji
If you are not willing to take any of these and discuss, please back off.. this is not the place for you. You can contact Ravikiran sir later and ask what conclusion they have arrived at!!!
Till I last checked, I was not aware that you had been freshly appointed as the moderator of this forum !!! If you are scared, learn to face them, dear Sir!! ;)
If you have great respect for Ravikiran sir, its good! Absolutely fine. But showing disrespect to another musician is shameful. You try to decide what shastry sir knows and what he does not know in your post. Let me remind you, this discussion is about OVK and not about how much Shastry sir or Ravikiran sir knows.
I would like to remind the same to you too. This discusssion is not about Mr Shastry's achievements, knowledge or vidvat nor about his lineage. It is about OVK. So lets focus on all the counter-points given by Shri Ravikiran that clearly answers and clarifies all the questions raised by Mr Shastry, including post no 104.

Enna_Solven
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Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

[edit] deleted comments.
Last edited by Enna_Solven on 11 May 2011, 08:25, edited 1 time in total.

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Mr Shastry,
On odd avartha topic few references are given in post 90 and obviously seconded without a thought in post 91 citing two more kruthis. They are " Mahaganapathim, Vathapi, Saraswathi Manohari etc.,.
In post 91, I had mentioned ‘amba neelayatakshi’ too that has 3 avartanams and does not have a madhyama kalam. So would be offering a weird solution for this too?!!
The proper methodology of singing these odd avrthas should be done by singing in madhyama kala once, then the same sahithya should be sung in keeulkaala next. ie, exactly similar to the sarale varase : once in 1st kaala, twice in second kaala and 4 times in 3 rd kaala. The solution so given by sri Purandaradasa in bala pata should be known to musical prodigy , i am sure. { in mahaganapathim , what i mean as correct method is : " Vasista vaama devadi vanditha should first be sung in madhyama kala and same in Keelkala and again in Madhyama kala so that odd avarthas do not occur.)
I am not even a prodigy but even I know that we repeat Sarali varishai only if it finishes in half avartanam. Shastry has again conclusively proved further ignorance about Sarali varishai !!! :grin: :grin:
Agreed that same has been printed in several books , preached and practiced in similar ways including true legends. The actual and correct method of tackling this is : the entire portion from sarasihurakhi to murahara sodari , should either be sung in madhyama kaala ot do the thrikaala of the same as in sarale varse


Any book of Dikshitar and other composers will underline sections in Madhyamakala which means that they should be sung only in double speed !!!!
Rendering a madhyakala section in slow speed as Shastry says is equivalent to murdering the composer’s work. This means that Shastry cannot read notation !!
Agreed that same has been printed in several books , preached and practiced in similar ways including true legends.


Do you mean to say that says all the legends who have been rendering this way and all the books published are wrong !!!??
Regarding dwithiyaakshara Prasa, It is the wonderful innovation and invention of South Indian literature . Valmikhi, Kalidasa, Dandi, Bhasa et al, belong to North India and hence followed NI culture which concentrate more on AnthyaPrasa , Anuprasa etc.,
Is there any stated rule in any book that stops a South Indian composer from using North Indian prAsa rules?
Also 'Kurul and Vennba' in Tamil, Haridasa Sahithya in Kannada, Badrachala Ramadasa and even Trinities in Telugu and Sanskrit have followed this as Sacrosanct .
This clearly shows that you have not followed post # 90 of Shri Ravikiran where 'Maha ganapatim' has been quoted as an example where the dwiteeyakshara prasa has been broken in the pallavi itself.

Yet another ghost-post from Shastry !

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry wrote: ... Hence forth all my reply ( if at all i decide to react ) will only pertain to the topic ...
Thanks.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

People: Why don't we let Sri. Ravikiran and Sri. Sasthri debate this in the manner they choose? These two are adults who can take care of themselves without defense from others. There have been rough patches but otherwise it has been quite informative. All these side commentaries with the personal putdowns and ridicule are getting to be annoying. Yes, one side would say they are reacting to the other side's ridicule. There is no end to it. Just stop that please. Of course, everyone can pitch in about points raised in the debate, ask further questions, provide a summary etc. but do that without bringing down the debaters.

Now back to the debate.

sureshvv
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sureshvv »

@hamsaa: You make great points and these may stand out even better if you omit the mild ribbing which seems to distract Shastry ji from making his points clearly without anger.

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

deciding the period of a composer from some "doshas " is full of pitfalls. Hundreds of Rasikas who are watching this thread have an arduous job.I wish to put them on guards by citing an example of false syllogism which i read somewhere.I would put it this way:
" there are prasa doshas in OVKs compositions
similar doshas are found in modern composers
So O V K is a modern composer."
compare this with the following:
Socrates is mortal
any cat is mortal
So Socrates is a cat.
Shri Ravikiran has given many examples showing such doshas exist in Thyagaraja , MD , etc...
So these composers are also modern and POST TRINITY.!!

satyabalu
Posts: 915
Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

Shri Ravikiran has given many examples showing such doshas exist in Thyagaraja , MD , etc...
can we say" kritis attributed to Thiagaraja,MD .". in lieu of what is quoted above?

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Of course!

doyoucare
Posts: 46
Joined: 07 Jan 2009, 23:11

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by doyoucare »

vasanthakokilam wrote:People: Why don't we let Sri. Ravikiran and Sri. Sasthri debate this in the manner they choose? These two are adults who can take care of themselves without defense from others. There have been rough patches but otherwise it has been quite informative. All these side commentaries with the personal putdowns and ridicule are getting to be annoying. Yes, one side would say they are reacting to the other side's ridicule. There is no end to it. Just stop that please. Of course, everyone can pitch in about points raised in the debate, ask further questions, provide a summary etc. but do that without bringing down the debaters.

Now back to the debate.
VK - Amen to that :D I would probably put the word 'annoying' in bold!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

There does not seem to be any doubt about the authenticity of the krtis under discussion like Evarichira, Mahaganapatim, Amba neelayatakshi and others

As far as I can see from the above posts, Shri Ravikiran’s contention seems to be that these are not even doshas, but developments which have made our system one of the most popular in the world.

I feel that over reliance on books, however authentic, will imprison Carnatic Music to the confines of libraries.

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs again more noise is heard which are beyond topic. A comment like this will not bring to anybody when hamsa says "I am not even a prodigy but even I know that we repeat Sarali varishai only if it finishes in half avartanam. Shastry has again conclusively proved further ignorance about Sarali varishai !!! '' Obviously it is the beyond the capacity of hamsa to understand what sri Ravikiran or Sri Shasthry are saying on " odd avarthas " . A comment like that only proves one point.: The age old saying " yathaa raaja thathaa prajaa "

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs please read in my above post "A comment like this will not bring CREDIT to anybody" instead of "A comment like this will not bring to anybody"

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs I totally agree with post no #115 - doyoucare , what he says. It is high time we should leave the two learned ones alone for obviously they have their lot of their good time and put in a very very hard work to achieve such degree of knowledge. Sri OVK was unheard by many except by vidhwans of the caliber, before sri RK conducted workshops and demonstrations of his kruthis in aradhanas etc., Similarly what Sri Shasthry or sri MSA saying or their input is too good. Let us not give cold splash to anyone so as to drive one to disgust about the whole topic, who's main switch is MUSIC !!

satyabalu
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Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by satyabalu »

"Sri OVK was unheard by many except by vidhwans of the caliber, before sri RK conducted workshops and demonstrations of his kruthis in aradhanas etc., "!!!

* AS far back as 1960-64 ,NKB used to stay in Madurai months together &conduct kathakalakshebam in Thallakulam temple ,Madurai..
*We used to go &learn during his leisure @the place of his stay -I remember for a moderate fees of Rs.10/-per song including" Bhajanamruta -Nattai-One of the Suptaretnas" &one in Jayanthsri (NERADASAMA NEELAKRISHANA)-The raga I first came to know of through that Kriti.
*Ramnad Sri. Sankara Sivam permitted OVK songs to be rendered even during Thiagaraja Aradhana (of course at a later part of the prog).
*I have also heard doyens like TNS used to clarify with one elderly professor woman in Trivandrum those days on rare ones of OVK.She still has a lot of rare thillanas to teach I am told.
*I also understand that Sri. Tiruvengadu Jayaraman knew all the Saptaretnas.*Popular songs like Thaye yeshoda(MMI famous neraval in Kalinil silambu-those days this neraval used to be imitated by even uninitiated in places like Virudunager near madurai&,Alaipayude were doing the rounds in dance circles.

punnagavrali1024
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by punnagavrali1024 »

To be quite honest, the empirical evidence set aside, it is highly improbable that OVK was a post trinity composer. Considering that Sri Tyagaraja himself lived past the eras of both sri Dikshitar and sri Syama Syastri (approx. until 1847) and to think that a composer would compose almost 400 or so KNOWN krithis (each a diamond to be admired) and most of them be lost and then later discovered post Thyagaraja seems to be a tale of a stubborn skeptic. OVK's style of sanskrit in his compositions, as well as tributes/references to composers such as in Padmavati Ramanam and Bhajanamruta suggest a much earlier life span. Furthermore, it would be pure common sense to think that if OVK lived after the time of the trinity, there would be more reference/popularity/knowing of him in the music circle by a wide variety of scholars and musicians (considering the wide variety of masterpieces he composed), however we see the opposite when in fact most of the knowledge of him in the 20th century was confined to a select group of people.

Furthermore dealing with the odd number of avarthanams, in Sri Dikshitar's Ahiri Navavarnam, in the pallavi, specifically the line "sripura bindu madhyasta..." the avarthanam count for rupakam comes out to be 7. I think such "inconsistencies" can be attributed to the greatness of these respective composers and the artistic licences they can take in order to bring out the true essence of the ragam or portray bhavam.

It is a subjective argument to try and prove that OVK is not on par with the trinity. It is highly opinionated and cannot be proven with fact. In my opinion it is the higher route for all musicians to respect the great musicians, vageyakkaras, and composers of the past without belittling their achievements over petty arguments about the _____, ______, and _______ being better. Ravikiran sir said it perfectly when he stated how composers should be evaluated in terms of quality and substance. We should not be biased against non trinity composers because of insecure beliefs that no one before the trinity could be on par with them in terms of scholarship, complexity, or accomplishments. Carnatic Music was not spontaneous and I would strongly argue that the trinity did not see themselves as the patron saints of our great music. Our music has evolved over time. If this is true then why is it hard for anyone to conceive the possibility that OVK achieve the greatest of accomplishments attributed to the trinity, before the trinity?

Every great composer is a god given gift meant to keep our music refreshed and ever evolving. To stubbornly argue that one composer is lesser than others, without providing objective and accurate facts seems to be counterproductive.

musicfan_4201
Posts: 199
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:34

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by musicfan_4201 »

Scratching History beyond a point/limit is akin to velai illatha ambattan poonai mudiyai sarachan :) What difference does it make if OVK lived in the 1st century or the 22nd century!
Let us enjoy the beauty of the compositions be it OVK, Trinity, ST, or others and carry on >>......

Ravikiran has done a wonderful job on this and the efforts on popularising OVK kritis is indeed laudable. So does Srikantham Sastry who has vast knowledge. Lets take out the best and move on ....

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

you said it musicfan ! i second it. the observation on " what difference.... " is bothering me also. Hope we will have more informative and healthy discussion !

chitravina ravikiran
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Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

I completely agree with many of you. In absolute terms, the value of OVK, Trinity, PD, Annamacharya, Kshetragna and several other greats are beyond time-space contexts. Being primarily a student of beauty and quality, I have focussed over 90% of my energies on sharing only those with respect to OVK, over the last 20-25 years - be it concerts/lectures/courses/books/articles.

However, in the context of this thread, we can definitely say that the primary evidence - which is luckily available to us in the form of the descendants of OVK's brother's family as well as OVK's own works, assumes significance. Family records - in a country like India - can be accurate only to a certain extent but they cannot be off by more than a few decades. Even though Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar arrived at 1680s as the possible birth period OVK, my studies so far have not been able to take this conclusion at par.

Weighing all the available facts and corraborations I have shared in this thread as well as evidence from his prolific works, we can unhesitatingly conclude that

(a) the period of OVK's birth could be anywhere in the earlier part of the 18th cent.
(b) he was not and could never have been a recent or modern composer.

I will update rasikas as and when I unearth any more pertinent information. Meantime, I will share further examples to illustrate his multi-dimensional genius, which will enable all of us appreciate not only his distinct style but also the magnitude of his definitive contributions.

anoopnm007
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Dear sirs,

it is indeed a ground breaking discussion going on here. As a keen music student, i found that certain points were left in between due to some distractions...

A major one is that Mr. Shastry conclusively tells that OVK is not a disciple of bhaskara raya. Assuming tht is true, since nobody proved otherwise, then whose disciple was OVK, or was he a srividya upasaka at all? if not, then what is the significance of his navavaranas?

Another interesting point is about attributing the number 9 to sankirna which was also lost midway. When was no. 9 given to sankirna and where is it mentioned? We know that trinities have composed in all 7 suladi talas which has everything except sankirnam. That again leaves room for confusion, i feel...

The third unconcluded point was regarding ragas like jayanthasri etc. for which we, common people, think the lakshya and lakshana were given by tyagaraja. But compositions like neeradasama again remains as an irony in which case is it possible that someone retuned the compositions like what is done for purandara dasa or annamacharya compositions...

In my humble opinion, I feel that the discussion would be incomplete without attending to these points...

Regards
Anoop.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Anoop, I do not have a clue about any "resolution" of the 'disciple of bhaskara raya' issue and whether it is pertinent at all to the topic.

On the other two issues which are indeed pertinent to the issue at hand..

post #74 in this thread ( http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 42#p196942 ), Sri. Ravikiran sheds some light on the Sankeernam issue.

On the Jayanthasri class of issues, what you suggest is possible but my take is, if that is so Sri. Ravi Kiran would have stated it - that they have been re-tuned - it is a much simpler explanation. But the point made by Sri. Ravikiran is, if one does not bring in the mythology associated with Narada and Tyagaraja as the primary evidence, then it is entirely possible that the same information was available a hundred years earlier, either the same treatise or through another one or that those ragas were prevalent then whether one can trace it to a specific treatise or not. The idea is treatises typically do not contain 'inventions or discoveries' , only descriptions and codifications of what is prevalent at that time and by extension a century or so before that time. We can readily see that in the SSP and the great lengths the author goes to disclaim that he is simply writing down what had been passed on down to him over hundreds of years.

mannari
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear sirs, we have two extra-ordinary prodigies, one sat on the lap of great Sri Shemmangudi identifying ragas at very young age, and other sat on the laps of two aasthana vidwans, at equally tender age and improvising what they sang ! . It is high time that more and more niceties of music are brought out on this blog, rather than arguing on only one aspect, sharing their expertise with us, so that empty pots may some what fill at some time !

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

reg post122.
Scratching History beyond a point/limit is akin to velai illatha ambattan poonai mudiyai sarachan :) What difference does it make if OVK lived in the 1st century or the 22nd century"
The popular saying quoted in post122 and promptly seconded in the next one is not pertinent to the present discussion. the saying is meant to discourage laymen from indulging in futile PHYSICAL activity in which the outcome is not going to be of any use to anybody.It does not apply to inquisitive INTELLECTUAL pursuits which are the basis of any research. Obviously it does not advocate throwing History, Archeology, Anthropology,Paleontology etc..( which are essentially concerned with dating )to the dustbin.
Neither the initiator of this thread nor the dozen contributors including the authors of the posts 122 and 123 neither the moderators nor the 2700 viewers can be called "Velayatha ----" Similarly the study of this genius tamil composer and one of the greatest of all times like the trinity cannot be compared to the job of shaving off a cat.

anoopnm007
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Respected rasikas,

I feel the bhaskara raya issue is a real serious one coz if its false we should stop associating these names asap. Then the remaining questions still prevail with close association with the topic of interest as Vid. Ravikiran himself have said Bhaskaraya Raya is the only option considering OVK's period. Doesn't that question OVK's period?

Regarding sankirna, even in the post mentioned there are only back questions instead of an exact answer on the treatise or period. The question assumes significance when we note that none among trinity or their predecessors have mentioned this.

The motivation for my third point was the comment by Vid. Ravikiran in which he says that almost all the compositions are passed down thru oral tradition and for many compositions only the lyrics are available. Hence it is highly plausible that some of the compositions lost its actual tune, lyrics or even the talam. Dhoshas could've crept in, especially when handled by non musicians/performers (ref. vid. Ravikiran's post).

Regards
Anoop.

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Hi Anoop,
Vid. Ravikiran himself have said Bhaskaraya Raya is the only option considering OVK's period
Where? I merely said he is reputed to have had initiation from BR and shared the corraboration that I had regarding that. I also told that other experts could debate about this, as I was not one. Btw, BR lived for close to 100 years almost till mid 1770s, if I remember right. Does anyone have an exhaustive list of all the students he trained or did not? I spoke to experts and posted several counter-points to whatever had been claimed.

The brillaince of OVK's navavaranams are beyond question, irrespective of which school he came from.
Regarding sankirna, even in the post mentioned there are only back questions
No! Only conclusive answers with references.
almost all the compositions are passed down thru oral tradition and for many compositions only the lyrics are available.
Same for Trinity and almost any major composer of that period. Very few original notations are available for anyone of them. Please refer to the Value of OVK thread.
Hence it is highly plausible that some of the compositions lost its actual tune, lyrics or even the talam.
Again, same holds good for many pieces of T, SS etc. I'd say, much more since those who 'handled' the songs were themselves good composers or musicians with imagination. Sangatis have been added, modified, subtracted or mutilated over centuries. Well known songs with modified tunes include Vasudevayani (Kalyani), Padaliga teera (Reetigowla), Chetulara (now in Bhairavi) etc. Many of SS's Mishra Chapu krtis like Tarunam idamma (Gowlipantu) have now become Adi (1 kalai). We have about 250 krtis of MD which are not even in SSP. How come the same people who are talking about OVK are silent about the same issues with respect to others?!
Dhoshas could've crept in
Typos are a reality in any transcription. I have consulted scholars to get these clarified as and when necessary.

As for other types of 'dosha', I have proved with conclusive examples and counter-examples that similar characteristics are seen in MD, T etc. I have also established that it is absolutely wrong to even label them as doshas. If we start quoting authorities out of context from even the greatest treatise, most developments will be categorised as doshas. That is the surest way to take music backward.

Bottom line: 1. Reading books is commendable. But the interpretation of these must be based on a combo of immense practical knowledge and experience, deep analysis, objectivity and common sense.
2. Before offering opinions about great people, one must spend years in getting acquainted with their works. If one is also a musician, one must learn at least a few dozen works before one can even understand their brilliance.

To this end, I am absolutely open to offering any assistance or even inputs to anyone genuinely interested in conducting objective studies about OVK, including Mr Shastri.

mannari
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear sirs, i feel both sri Anoop007 and sri RK are right in their own views. Its very hard to visualize the actual facts. Eg., Just because we are living in the same period with Dr Balamurali or say Sri MSG, one should not conclude that today's Vidhwan, by his own virtue, should not be analysed or concluded that he is influenced by the above cited greats. At best, in the absence of real proof, may be classified as " Possible" , which again is not conclusive. Anyway, analyst on this knows better than anyone . RK's offer is magnanimous and interesting. Only it is to be accepted.

nadhasudha
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by nadhasudha »

I have been following this thread of discussion and I am an independent observer. I see that Shri Ravikiran has patiently answered all the questions raised by the initiator of this thread and conclusively proved that his assumptions about OVKs period are just that - his own assumptions with no scientific basis. I am yet to see any logical arguments by the initator of this thread for any of the replies given by Shri Ravikiran.

In any debate, if one of the sides is unable to provide any valid counter points raised by the other side, they have to graciously accept that they are wrong and have incorrectly arrived at their conclusions. At least that is the point of a healthy debate. Will the initiator of this thread oblige?

musicfan_4201
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by musicfan_4201 »

Ponbhairavi wrote:reg post122.
Scratching History beyond a point/limit is akin to velai illatha ambattan poonai mudiyai sarachan :) What difference does it make if OVK lived in the 1st century or the 22nd century"
The popular saying quoted in post122 and promptly seconded in the next one is not pertinent to the present discussion. the saying is meant to discourage laymen from indulging in futile PHYSICAL activity in which the outcome is not going to be of any use to anybody.It does not apply to inquisitive INTELLECTUAL ........

Oh, come on. Cant you take things in a lighter vein and read with referenec to the context ??????
The very reason I attached a smiley in that statement !!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Shri RK has given 'conclusive answers with references' to all the questions raised.
As CM rasikas, let us move ahead and continue enjoying the beautiful creations of OVK, post-OVK trinity and many others. :D

mannari
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear sirs, Pratyaksham bala is telling parokshamly confirming about the time of Sri OVK. Somewhere along the lines he forgot to tell us to enjoy the OVK's compositions created by 20th and 21st century vaggeyakaras !

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Now that all the questions have been answered by Shri RK conclusively, let us move ahead.

uday_shankar
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by uday_shankar »

Absolutely no case for a "post-trinity" OVK

The following "analysis" is quite unnecessary given the more erudite and detailed internal evidence cited by Shri Chitravina Ravikiran in various books, lectures and online discussions including this one. Still, for what it is worth, this is a hasty and haphazard attempt to debunk the case for a "post-trinity" OVK purely based on common sense. All of the dates I cite below are from memory (dates are my mental placeholders to place people in historical context) and may have slight errors that are irrelevant to the points made.

Tyagaraja died in 1847, MD in 1835 and SS around the same time.

So let us say the great "post-trinity" musical genius OVK lived between 1820 and 1890. Or choose something similar, say 1830 to 1900. Keep in mind that the later the date, the weaker the case as will be shown hereinunder.

First, think how unlikely that somebody who lived in this highly scrutinized period of extensive intercity travel and communication would go unnoticed. This was the Victorian era when the British empire and civil administration was firmly established in the Madras presidency.

My late father in law's grandfather Shri Sulamangalam Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar lived between 1866 and 1943 and wrote extensively on the musicians and harikatha exponents of his time. Given that the Bhagavathar was a leading Harikatha exponent of his times who conducted an annual Radha-Kalyana Uthsavams, it is absolutely inconceivable that he would not have met or talked about a contemporary who was not only an extraordinary musical genius but also a great Krishna bhakta. That too from an adjoining village which was part of an exclusive group of villages (Melattur, Sulamangalam, Oothukadu, etc..) known for the Bhagavatha mela. In fact, OVK would have been the presiding "chief" guest in the Sulamangalam Radha Kalyanams and the stories would be part of the family folklore. Oh, how I wish it were so!

The fact is, Sulamangalam Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar never mentioned OVK anywhere in his writings. As he did not Annamacharya or Arunagirinathar. Because OVK was not a contemporary or connected in anyway with his contemporaries (as in Tyagaraja was connected by way of his numerous shishyas and shishya parampara who where the Bhagavathar's conemporaries).

The post trinity period is very very close to ours and many people born in that period come tantalizingly close to our own generation. Patnam Subramania Iyer lived between 1845 and 1902 while Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan between 1844 and 1893. All this overlaps with people who lived within a hair's breadth of our own times, such as Tiger Varadachari (1875-1950), Mysore Vasudevachar (1861-1960), Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavathar (1870-1945). All these people had close contact with the great generation of musicians born between 1890 (ARI) and say 1916 (Alathur Sivasubramania Iyer) in many cases as their gurus. And yet none of that great generation - ARI, Musiri, Maharajapuram, Alathur, SSI, MMI - ever talked about their "gurunathars" meeting thsi great composer OVK. And yet many of them sang OVK's more well-known compositions, certainly the Tamil ones. It is inconceivable that not one of them would have mentioned something about this extraordinary vaggeyakara in some context.

The history of late 19th century and early 20th century Carnatic music is well documented and analyzed. Veena Dhanammal's (1868-1939) musical collaborations with Dharmapuri Subbarayar (mid to late 1800's), Vina Kuppaiyar (mid to late 1800's), Tiruvottiyur Tyagaiyyar (died 1920 I think) and Kanchipuram Naina Pillai (1889*-1938) are well known. What the heck, I've had the privilege of meeting the venerable T Sankaran who served for a time as Tyagaiyyar's willing errand boy. Similarly, I have had the privilege of meeting Shri M D Ramanthan, the star disciple of Tiger Varadachariar (1875 born). Shri S R Janakiraman, the living legend of musicology, was another star disciple of Tiger. If anybody want's to touch the feet of a real person who has touched the feet of Tiger Varadachari who has touched the feet of Patnam Subramania Iyer, lose no time in contriving to seek Shri SRJ's blessings. Like the famed Erdos number, SRJ is the only person living with a "Patnam number" of 2. What a privilege, huh !

Those of us born and raised in Tamil Nadu who have read and followed Carnatic music and its recent history closely have a fairly good idea of the great names associated with it, who might have met who and when and so on. Interesting tidbit: Patnam Subramania Iyer met Swami Vivekananda in 1900 at the behest of Bhaskar Sethupathi in Ramnad.

Given all of this, it is inconceivable that OVK lived anytime in the early to late 19th century.

That leaves OVK either a contemporary of the trinity or more likely...gasp...PRE-TRINITY. Now the naysayers are free to issue a "fatwa" against me for this blasphemy :).

*: It is my opinion that the "official" year of birth ascribed to Naina Pillai, 1889, is wrong. He must have been born at least a decade earlier earlier. I cannot believe that he was only 23 years older than Brindamma and that he was only about 30 years old when Brindamma started her lessons with him. In those days, nobody kept any birth records.

uday_shankar
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by uday_shankar »

Just thought up a few more illustrious contemporaries of a potential post-trinity OVK who somehow completely and magically missed him although they lived in the same region. Again dates are approximate: Ramad (Poochi) Srinivasa Iyengar (1860-1920), Konerirajpuram (Marathurai) Vaidyanatha Iyer (1878-1922), Tirukodikavil Krishna Iyer (1853-1915).

Again, may the curse of the "trinity" be upon me (cbum) to suggest that there was a comparaby great vaggeyakara prior to them. I am sure they are jointly very jealous :).

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

From the posting 131, and the examples cited ,it is not clear to me whether he means that OVK was a contemporary of the trinity or whether he was "influenced " by the trinity or whether Thyagaraja 's pancharatna kritis were inspired by OVK's saptaratna krithis.He has stated that "analyst-( singular)
on this knows better than anyone". This means that he is not an analyst or else he would have simply said that"I know better than anyone " To accept RK's offer ,"one must learn at least a few dozen works before one can even understand (first the meaning in tamil and) its brilliance" vide - Rk,s post no 130) Let us hope for the best.

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

I think I have a handle on the sankirna issue though partly speculation.
Arunagirinathar has extensively used different tala structure which includes the SUlaDi talas as a subset.
CM has not recognized many of the talas used by AN since the Trinity who adopted the SulaDi paradigm dominated the field and also they were not aware of AN's contributions due to the language barrier. They primarily followed and extended the musical structure expounded in Sanskrit/Telugu granthas and laid the foundation of CM as we know today.

On the other hand OVK as a pre trinity was well-versed in both the sanskrit/tamil works on music of the day. He was quite familiar with AN's thiruppugazh chandas which is replete with 'sankirna' prayogams which he handled with felicity. However as a great sanskrit scholar OVK restricted himself to the evolving grammar of CM based on the Venkatamahi system which accounts for his compositions sticking to Carnatic ragas whereas AN never attributed any ragas to his compositions.

Recently Guruji Raghavan who is a renowned laya expert has set scintillating CM ragas to many of the Thiruppugazh compositions preserving the tala structure of AN. This is a brilliant extension of CM which is yet to be popularised and adopted by CM performers in concerts. Most of them still stick to the handful of Thiruppugazh tuned by veterans Alathur/MMI/MS/... Guruji Raghavan has categorized the Thiruppugazh chandas as 'Anga talas'. All of the SUlaDi talas can be found included therein with several examples of the use of sankirna jaati in a variety of complicated structures and the count of nine is obviously present. OVK being bilingual (Tamil/Sanskrit) was able to capture the beauty of the AN structures was quick to incorporate them into his scheme. it is probable that he even coined the term 'sankiirna' himself. Etymologically 'mishra' meaning seven is a mixture of catusra and tisra whence 'sankiirna' meaning comingle/confuse/mix up is a combination of catusra and khaNDa. There is no equivalent term in Tamil!

Perhaps this brief discussion will clarify and stimulate further investigations (from RK and others) and incidentally establish the credentials of OVK as a pre trinity composer....

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Interesting perspective, Uday.
Again, may the curse of the "trinity" be upon me to suggest that there was a comparaby great vaggeyakara prior to them.
I am sure you mean this as humorously. But in a serious vein, none of the true greats got into composing like an Olympic race to be #1 or #2 etc or get approbations from others... It was just a way of life for them to share their divine equations through their works. The exemplary attitude exhibited by the Trinity and OVK to the architects of our music before their times were echoed best by Einstein - "I am no giant but appear tall because I am standing on the shoulders of the giants before me". The reverence that these great composers felt for the contributors before their times is clearly seen in compositions such as Endaro mahanubhavulu, Vidulaku mrokkeda and Guruleka (of Tyagaraja) and Bhajanamrta, Padmavati ramanam, Alavadennalo, Vande valmiki kokilam etc (by OVK). We as musicians and music lovers gain immeasurably when approaching their works with a similar attitude.
sankirna issue
CML: You are very correct about AN's incomparable brilliance and his definite influence on OVK. As I mentioned elsewhere, OVK has himself composed a couple of tiruppugazh-style compositions on Lord Krishna. He also cites him in his piece: singAra vElanukku ennaDi bhAram - darishanam tara illaiyO nEram as below:

iha para sukham tarum tiruppugazh onRinai
eDuttEnaDi manam koDuttEnaDi

But as I wrote earlier, Sankeerna as a jati of 9 units was already mentioned by Shri Govinda Kavi - many decades before OVK. And I also referred to the composition in Sankeerna triputa in that period in a publication by the Saraswati Mahal Library.

mannari
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Sirs , more interesting analyses ! . But if anyone is logical ( or at least let common sense prevail ) it is not difficult to deduce that Sri Thagaraja Swamy , amidst all his compositions and Sri Rama Nama inscriptions (which ran into Crores) would not have time or inclination to study what other composers were doing, except what he was taught by his father or gurus at the his early age. I have visited the residences of trinities and less than a kilometer separates each one of those houses. It is said they hardly met each other although they existed in the same area and era. So it is highly improbable that saptaratna of Sri OVK had any influence on him during the creation of his gana pancharatnas, which , in however, clubbed togather after his demise. Each one of them was spontaneously composed and hence no room for any influence of other greats. The different style of trinities are there for everyone to judge.

anoopnm007
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Dear Rasikas,

I'm quoting Vid. Ravikiran here...
The next is reference to Bhaskara Raya. This was based on my discussions (in San Antonio) with Mr Venkat Subramanian, a descendant of a Minister in the Royal Court of King Serfoji.

"Based on the accounts of my Grand father Late Needamangalam Pattabhirama Iyer, His Grannd father's Grand father Ramaswamy Iyer was the minister with Serfoji Maharaja and big patron of music in the Needamangalam area. Ramaswamy Iyer was very close to OVK and his extenses family. According to my grand father OVK got diksha from the Shaktha tantric swamiji. The only swamiji that lived during that period was Bhaskara Raya. I therefore strongly believe the link between Bhaskara Raya and OVK."

Nevertheless, in all my articles, I have given this information only after qualifying it as OVK 'is believed to have' got his deeksha from Bhaskara Raya. This clearly means that the subject can be pursued further before definite statements are made. What is perhaps more significant is that the above mail proves that there were people of fairly impeccable credentials who were close to OVK during his times.
As it is clear from previous posts, the whole parampara of Bhaskara Raya is well documented and it has no reference to OVK anywhere. Then who is his guru if he was srividya upasaka at all (that surely has got something to do with his period)? Also, there is a system innate to srividya upasaka in which they pay their tribute to their 3 to 5 predecessors (svaguru, paramaguru, parameshtiguru, paratparaguru, paraparaguru) through which we can obtain a clear hierarchical chain of sishya parampara. My doubt is, has OVK anywhere in any of his compositions mentioned any of his gurus or his deeksha namam?

If OVK was not a srividya upasaka, then i feel that his navavaranams are just another set of kritis. Here, I'm not commenting about its musical brilliance. I'm saying it is just like any other kriti of his...

About the oral tradition, for trinities and even for many pre-trinities we have notated copies of their kritis. For eg, the walajpet notations available at madurai saurashtra sabha for tyagaraja kritis. Similarly, the kritis of talappakam composers were preserved in copper plates. Also, the shisyas of trinities and other great vaggeyakaras were also great musicians who popularised their gurus' compositions. But in case of OVK, the only available source is the oral tradition and even that is passed down through relatively less musical people. And what about the kritis for which only sahityam is available? Who has written those down? How are they tuned?

Another point which has been bothering me is regarding sangita sampradaya pradarshini. In SSP's vaggeyakara charitram, the author mentions all great composers or their lineages except OVK. Here, I would like to add that the lineage of annamacharya is also mentioned under the title talappakkam composers. Why is OVK not mentioned in SSP?

Regarding Polur Govindakavi's work, he gives a mathematical possibility of number nine along with many other values for sankirna. But as OVK was not known to any of the vaggeyakaras or musicians of that period, it is safe to assume that he has not come across the work of Polur Govindakavi (coz any acquaintance with any vidwan of that period would've easily made a person like OVK popular). Then how did he fix upon the value of sankirna as nine?

Ravikiran sir, regarding the composition in sankirna triputa, I'm keen to know which is that composition and who is the composer. It may shed some light on this issue in particular and about the music of that period in general.

Regards
Anoop Krishnan

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, cmlover, Somewhere I have read that Arunagirinathar (he was also called ‘Dindimabhattu’ as he was playing ‘Damaru’ while competing others to confuse with its sound and defeat them but Shrinatha Mahakavi broke his ‘Dindima’ and defeated him as per the history I know) used the prosody of Sankrit in Tamil and composed some songs. That is why they all should not be called as ‘Talas’ or even ‘Anga-talas’ but Chando-roopas. Moreover, they are our musicians who fixed the names of ragas or talas of their own fancy like all other 35 or 108 or 120 or 300 or 500 or 1000 Talas and used them in their concerts.

Why they should not be called either as ‘Talas’ or ‘Anga-talas’? Tala is the name of a musical-metre which, in turn, has ten-kinds of disciplines called ‘Tala-dasha-pranas’. Any musical-metre which fits in the terms and conditions of these ten-disciplines can only be called ‘Tala’. In which way the Sharabhanandana-tala of Shyama Shastry also does not fit in these ten-disciplines even the Chando-roopas of Arunagirinathar also do not fit in and thus, they should not be called ‘Talas’ at all. In the same manner, while ‘Anga’ is also part and parcel of these ten-disciplines and any Anga, irrespective of the number of times it occurs in a Tala-cycle, must carry the same units without any change. But, here, in these Chando-roopas of Arunagirinathar, many of the Angas carry different units at different places. In such case how can they be called ‘Anga-talas’? They should not be. In the absence of the proper knowledge of the Ten-elements and the 10th element, Prastara in particular, people are used to do things as they like and this is our great tradition started by the Great Sharngadeva himself right from 12th century and successfully followed by one and all till now except ‘Tacchoor Singaracharya Bros’ (refer my book, Systematisation of Prastara details of Deshi-talas available in Carnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai).

One must know that the rhythm having mathematical base is one and the same for any person of the universe irrespective of his language.

All are aware that the trinity had strictly followed the Soolaadi-talas only. But, even in these Soolaadi-talas, even in the basic Alankaras which are taught to the aspirants in the primary lessons, one should not forget that ‘Sankeernam’ has never been used. Among the five basic Jaatis, Trisra (3), Chaturashra (4), Khanda (5), Mishra (7) and Sankeerna (9) the Chaturashra (4) is the only even and all the remaining four-jaatis are odds. Even among these four odds while Sankeerna (9) is the only divisible one (by ‘3’) all others, Trisra (3), Khanda (5) and Mishra (7) are indivisible. That is why this Sankeerna has been omitted even in the basic Alankaras and none in the Trinity did use it anywhere. But, some STALWARTS, having no deep knowledge either to exclude or include anything, very conveniently included this Sankeerna-jaati also even in the basic Alankaras just like the members of Board of Studies in the University included all the useless 35-talas in the sysllabus (as they are not going to write any of these examinations and they, actually, do not know which item should be included or excluded as all are performers but not teachers at all). Just like these STALWARTS, some others are also used to make a show by singing Nada-pallavis rendering different units to the Kriyas of the same cycle of a Tala just to bring out a novel thing and to get easy fame.

And, some others are telling that I must bear with the Sharabhanandana-tala as it has been created by one of the trinity, Great Shyama Shastry. In fact, 4 or 5 years back, in the same manner even Padma Vibhooshan, Sangitakalanidhi, Dr.Shreepaada Pinaakapaani showed me how to render the same Sharabhanandana-tala. When I told it is in-correct to render it he asked me ‘Who are you to find fault with it when I have learned it from Pallavi Chandrappa and this has even been created by the Great Shyama Shastry himself?’ Then, when I have proved its in-correctness, then and there, with solid evidences he was compelled to agree as this has mathematical base. In this manner, mistakes always remain as mistakes only irrespective of the person’s greatness in other areas. But, sometimes, when such people are not ready to agree with us, as, in general, in-efficients are more and efficients are less, we must agree with them just like in the political elections and disperse. amsharma

hamsaa
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Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Looks like Shastry & Co are clutching at straws!! :grin: :D

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Sarmaji
Thanks for that illuminating post. Like ragas the number of possible talas is also infinite. There is a famous quote in Tamil
ThenRal vaDivu SivanAr thiruvaDivu
manRal vaDivu madan thiruvaDivu
kunRAtha vEyinisai vadivum
vEda vaDivum kANil Aya thALam kANalAm
Every prime number of beats can lay a claim. But then for practical purposes and human limitations there need be limitations. I agree sankirna as multiple of 3 is reduntant whereas it has come to stay through tradition. The 'anga taalams' do not belong there which is why they are termed different. Again tradition need not be stagnant. There is scope for extensions always from expert gurus like yourself.

My point in my post is only to clarify the currency of the term sankirna to establiish the time-line of OVK.
Ravikiran has clarified the issue so that the controversy may now be at rest..

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

The 8th charana of OVK's first Saptaratna Bhajanamrta (Nattai), gives a hint of the composer's intimacy with both raga and tala. The piece starts off by paying homage to all the great bhagavatas as follows:

P: bhajanAmrta paramAnanda bhAgavata santa caraNarEnum nirantaram vahAmyaham harinija

In the 8th charana, he says:

krSNa kathAkarNana vrta japa tapa stOtra kvaNitArcana yOga
rAsa mahOtsava vibhava bhAva paramAdbhuta nartana vara nrtya catura
agaNita rAga nava vidha tALa kramalaya gati svara tantri samanvita
AnandAtishaya sukha nimaghna ananta mahAnta caraNAravinda (bhajanamrta)

Initially I wondered which 9 (nava vidha) tala system he was talking about. I then realised that nava here refers to various kinds of talas (nava also means new/novel and here the poet probably pays tribute to all the great tala-kartas of Indian music, clear proof of his awareness of intricate tala and raga system.

In the 7th charanam, he salutes many historic personalities who were architechts of devotional as well as classical music:

shiva hari sharavaNa bhava guha bhajana nirantara mAlAlankrta shObha
vAgIsha shivapAdahrdaya suta manivAcaka sundara DiNDima kavirAja
madhurakavi rAja rAmAnuja kulashEkhara viSNucitta parakAla
purandara tuLasidAsa charaNAravinda dhULi hari shiva guha

He has referred to Arunagirinathar as Dindima kaviraja, aware of his reputation, which ties up with the inclusive but not-limited to reference to nava-vidha tala. Vageesha in this context is Tirunavukkarashar, not Brahma.

The song is a brilliant creation in Sanskrit that salutes both Shiva and Vishnu devotees, a peep into the composer's humility as well as his elevated state of mind devoid of any kind of divide.
Last edited by chitravina ravikiran on 18 May 2011, 07:25, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Hello! Anonymous Hamsa dear, While Shastry & Co., is trying to know all the hurdles and to remove them in the process of bringing out the importance of our great composer OVK, it seems you, looking with a jaundiced eye, are viewing it of clutching at straws, as you are unable to forget straws. amsharma

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Dear Shri Akella Sir

I never included you in Shastry & Co !! Since you have graciously added yourself in this list, I’m forced to reply to your post. :grin:
trying to know all the hurdles and to remove them in the process of bringing out the importance of our great composer OVK,
Where???

All of us are seeing that they are either imagining and/or creating hurdles for others to know the greatness of OVK.
you are unable to forget straws.
You are perfectly correct!! :D The last 2 days I have been thinking of straws because
of OVk’s sublime composition ‘pullai piravi tara venum’ where he asks that he be granted a birth in Brndavanam even if it were as a straw!!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

the whole parampara of Bhaskara Raya is well documented and it has no reference to OVK anywhere.
Anoop ji, could you please enlighten us by posting the entire list of Bhaskararaya's parampara spanning his lifetime of close to 100 years?
If OVK was not a srividya upasaka, then i feel that his navavaranams are just another set of kritis.
11 compositions of the navaravaranam set (including Shree Ganeshwara and the dhyana stuti) eloquently establish OVK as a practising Srividya Upasaka.
It is obvious that those have not been studied yet !!
In SSP's vaggeyakara charitram, the author mentions all great composers or their lineages except OVK. Here, I would like to add that the lineage of annamacharya is also mentioned under the title talappakkam composers.
Do you have the original Telugu version of this book? If so, please quote the exact contents in Telugu along with English translation with page number.

While on the subject I would also like to remind everyone here that Shastry is yet to provide the list of ragas mentioned in Svararnava that Tyagaraja is supposed to have followed.

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