western time signatures and various nadais/gathis.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 24 Aug 2010, 16:02

I have a concert recording of MSG and Dr.Narmada playing Bhogindra Shayinam, and guess what...it is hard NOT to keep perfect taala when you listen to it. I am not sure why it is like that with MSG playing. I have listened to other recordings of that song, but MSG and Dr. Narmada playing it is different because you feel that even taalas in which the beats are not equi-distant can be very "natural".

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Aug 2010, 18:40

vk -

Dots was somethig I saw. I have no preference (since I dont plan using this and both are still confusing

. But
if 1/3 <=> "quarter"-note + dot
then 1/6 <=> "eighth"-note + dot
then perhaps 1/12 <=> "sixteenth"-note + dot wouldnt it be?

Again "quarter" "eight" "sixteenth" dont mean what they may

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Aug 2010, 18:41

girish_a : the test would be to ask a "freshman" rasika or a non-carnatic rasika to keep beat as in tap too (not necessarily put tala).

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Aug 2010, 19:32

What is happening about dotted notes?

A dot increases the duration of a note by a half, so a dotted quarter note is is 1/4 + 1/8 = 3/8.

1/3 does not come into it

Girish... there are lots of songs that it is not difficult to put talam too. Many of them have a pronounced rhythmic feel. However, there also songs that are not, varying from those where there is simply not a strong beat to those that are highly syncopated. We split off from the original thread because the conversation turned to how western music treats such things, but it comes down, at basics, to sarvalaghu, easy: konnukku, difficult. For example, a composition which, by definition, might be far more konnukku than sarvalarghu: thillana.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Aug 2010, 19:46

Nick you are still trying to attach 1/4 and 1/8 meaning to the quarter and eight note

! We will never get 1/3 and 1/6 with that.

But you may be right in the sense that dot is used to actually imply a true 4/4 timing for a note that is 3 "matras" (each matra being 1/8) i.e. 3 1/8th notes in duration. Like vk said it is not adopted for other divisions (i.e. 3, 5 etc.) of a note.

The tuplet scheme (with number = 3) ALSO implies 3 eighth-notes grouped together. If one attaches 1/4 and 1/8 meaning we will still arrive at 3/8. However, in this case (because of the beam with the "3" marker in it), it is saying "these 3 notes in the duration of quarter note" and thus "by convention" it implies each note is 1/3 even-though they are represented by eighth-note symbols again - The beam with "3" marker has precedence and overrides the meaning of eighth-note symbol -

.

I guess is wacky until one gets used to it.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Aug 2010, 20:28

I have no idea about fractions that are not based on two! Maybe we have to get to the advanced class before we can work out how to do 1/3 etc.

No, the dot is not used to imply 4/4 timing: it is, simply, used to extend the duration of a note by a half

still trying to attach 1/4 and 1/8 meaning to the quarter and eight note

I'm not trying... because they are!

And yes it is all whacky. Just imagine being able to read all this stuff and play it, like words on a page --- and with chords and maybe both hands, depending on instrument. Utterly whacky!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Aug 2010, 20:44

Arun, I am confused by what you are trying to get at. The dot and double dots increase the duration of the preceding symbol by 50%

>Nick you are still trying to attach 1/4 and 1/8 meaning to the quarter and eight note

In chathusra gathi context, that is still correct, isn't it? 1/8th note is half of a quarter note etc.

The triples and pentuples etc use the eighth note, sixteenth notes symbols to refer to non 1/8th and non 1/16th fractions. But that is only when it is explicitly notated so that the groups are triples and pentuples etc.

So, I am still not sure how the dot notation can be used for properly representing triples and pentuples. ( unless you are saying, if you can attribute a different duration to the 1/16th note in the triplet context, why not to the dot notation... but that is not the convention )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Aug 2010, 21:02

Forget the dots! It was something I thought could be applicable since "quarter-note" + dot <=> 3 "eighths" note in 4/4 time, and since to represent a true triple (i.e. 1/3) one still uses 3 "eighths" note I thought maybe dot applied there as well. I don't think it is.

Yes eights and fourths make sense only in 4/4. But basically since the same symbols are also applied to 1/3, 1/5 etc. (with other indicators) to me their role has become more abstract - like buffalo and sheep note.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Aug 2010, 21:42

>Yes eights and fourths make sense only in 4/4.

You probably meant to say 'it makes sense only where the denominator is a power of 2'. And it is true by definition since that is all the notation system supports.

>But basically since the same symbols are also applied to 1/3, 1/5 etc. (with other indicators) to me their role has become more abstract - like buffalo and sheep note.

Exactly.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Aug 2010, 21:50

The "denominator" indicates the kind of note to be taken as one beat. Whilst I imagine Western musicians won't be as baffled, we can't even work out how to write a "fifth" or a "third" note! Why would it happen?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Aug 2010, 22:02

Nick I am confused. Per what vk posted (the image) with the tuplet notation one can indeed notate 1/3 and 1/5 (?)

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Aug 2010, 22:14

I'm confused, too Arun, mainly because I never actually learnt this stuff, my music classes having begun with Tha Dhi Thom Nam!

With the tuplet-type grouping, we can say "play three in the time of one". That means we can a group of three notes, each one of which (assuming our time of one is one beat) are one third of what ever that single beat is. We can't (???) use this kind of notation to indicate just one one-third note.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Aug 2010, 22:28

That I believe would be correct unless there is some other mechanism for that. Of course one should ask what is a "sub-note" doing by itself without knowing "which whole it is a part of". You dont notate partial measures (if a section ends half-way, you fill remaining with "rests" - atleast that is what I think).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Aug 2010, 23:28

>With the tuplet-type grouping, we can say "play three in the time of one". That means we can a group of three notes,
>each one of which (assuming our time of one is one beat) are one third of what ever that single beat is.
>We can't (???) use this kind of notation to indicate just one one-third note.

Correct.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 25 Aug 2010, 00:26

arunk wrote:That I believe would be correct unless there is some other mechanism for that. Of course one should ask what is a "sub-note" doing by itself without knowing "which whole it is a part of". You dont notate partial measures (if a section ends half-way, you fill remaining with "rests" - atleast that is what I think).

Arun

Yes, I think so too.

Mind you... Western music has its edepu shifts too, and I think that when this happens, the "last line" has to fill in the "missing bit" from the "first line". Much the same way as Carnatic music does.

Western music also has the "pause" which is a symbol which means "carry this not as long as you feel like"! For that note, all relative-value bets are off

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Sep 2010, 01:42

Watch and listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82bBMxNF9AE

Is this thisra eka or adi, thisra nadai? In the western context, the same question, what is the time signature? 4/4 ish with triplets or 3/4 ( or 3/8 )

The dance looks to be Waltz.

This polish folk tune incidentally is the basis for the famous hindi film song Dil Tadap Tadap Ke ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te0ZdZ1ndyw )

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Sep 2010, 02:43

I'll go with 3/4, and I'll equate it to rupakam --- or to tisra eka.

I won't go for 2/4 or 4/4 in triplets, because of the consistent ONE two three rather than takita takita takita takita.

I'm also ruling out 6/8 (which is tempting because of the speed) because it doesn't go ONE two three FOUR five six

Just my interpretation

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Sep 2010, 04:45

>I'm also ruling out 6/8 (which is tempting because of the speed) because it doesn't go ONE two three FOUR five six

For you to feel that, the stress on ONE and the stress of FOUR have to be different, right?

>because of the consistent ONE two three rather than takita takita takita takita.

takita takita takita takita also is TAkita TAkita TAkita TAkita . In what way that is different from ONE two three ONE two three ONE two three ONE two three?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Sep 2010, 13:51

I don't think there is a fixed answer to that! I wish I could get some more memories of, eg, Irish folk, out of my head, but the the tiny piece in there at the moment doesn't have much stress on the first note of triplet.

Yes, I'd say it is marked in 3/4, and particularly emphasised in waltz music. 6/8 is a bit like two groups of three, but the stress on 4 is less than that on 1. Of course, even in 4/4 we can have a lesser stress on 3 too.

Freely admit I'm struggling, as I'm trying to remember stuff I listened to decades ago and I never studied any Western music. Still... it's interesting to try

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Sep 2010, 21:14

Nick, I am interested in what you feel and how that maps to a 4/4 triplet, 3/4 or 6/8.

From that point of view, if there is not much stress on the first note of a triplet in that song in your head, where is the stress?

May be, we need to find a song that is in triplet 4/4 and compare the feel.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Sep 2010, 21:36

Yes, although we probably need to find several, and I'm sure we'll find inconsistency!

One of the reasons we might find different interpretations would be exploring pieces from different periods and different cultures.

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 02 Oct 2010, 08:43

Tempted to post a response, though i am pretty week at Talam myself.

I will use caps for quarter notes and numerals for 8th notes.

My understanding of 3/4 is that it is :- 3 quarter notes to a bar. ONE TWO THREE. If the first few bars where composed in 8th notes then each of the ONE TWO and THREE will be subdivided as 1 2 -1 2 -1 2. Hence 3/4 is what we call a simple triple.

6/8 is six 8th notes for a bar :- 1 2 3 4 5 6 , 1 2 3 4 5 6...but if i render this as 1 2 -3 4 - 5 6 ....then we cannot distinguish with 3/4 above. So we render this as 1 2 3-4 5 6. Hence we call this as compound duple.

Now, i can take a guitar and accompany this piece in anyway...either by playing 12-12-12 chords or by playing 1 2 3- 1 2 3 chords. Or a mixture of both. For both the feel would be totally different. I find this part incredible about WCM..how different chords ...or just different rythmic patterns of same chords change the feel of a song.

Nick, i feel I can understand why you went with 3/4. Even I feel that it is a waltz. But can you tell me if it is possible in WCM composition for the vocal part to go 3/4 whereas the Double Bass can be set to play 6/8? Or is this just not allowed in WCM and I am speaking nonsense?

Because that is what i feel is happening here. I can feel that the Double Bass/Cello in the background is playing dotted notes when the vocal starts....or maybe its just my ear playing tricks on me

At least in my understanding is that we cannot do a directly translation with our Talams because here the composer chooses the "GAIT" that he wants the audience to hear .Whereas in our music a mridangam artist may do some "Gati" changes (am i using the correct term?) right in the middle of the song for effect.

VK,

I would be very interested in a piece composed in triplets but with 4/4 rythm. It seems like such a Carnatic kanakku idea to me...would love to hear a Western classical piece composed like this.

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 02 Oct 2010, 13:32

I found one piece in triplets but still using a 4/4 rythym. Later it goes to 6/8

The song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKBmhPIr ... re=related

A more detailed explanation is given below:-

http://www.johnclarkemusic.com/to-live/

And here he explains how to play it. Interesting if you like the guitar!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXTdQ4Ck ... u_in_order

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Oct 2010, 21:24

Thanks Krazy4music. I understand what you saying about simple triple ( 3/4 1 2 -1 2 -1 2 , 3 in a bar feel ) vs complex duple ( 6/8 1 2 3 - 1 2 3 , two in a bar feel ). They are not the same since the stress patterns are different.

That guitar example is great. I get the triplet feel in the A sections and it is very relatable to trisram. The B section is in 6/8 but it is too fast to compare and contrast with the feel of the triplet. But that B section does not sound like trisram.

raguanu · Post by **raguanu** » 07 Feb 2011, 16:43

The feel of meters with perceived strong/weak beats work for popular music and very limited (western) classical music. In Classical music, phrases are constructed and bar-lines are placed where a certain starting or upbeat effect is felt. Yes, that's a stress, but the constructed phrase need not correspond to 1 2 3 4 or 123456 as we assume.

Notice, that the stress patterns in Pop/rock and Reggae are just opposite to each other.

Walter Piston, in his book Counterpoint wrote:In itself, meter has no rhythm. It is simply a means of measuring music, principally for purposes of keeping time....

Many, many compositions, even from baroque era do not conform to weak-beat-strong-beat patterns as we are taught today.

Bach's Bandinerie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eucu7robnm4
score: http://imslp.org/wiki/Orchestral_Suite_ ... bastian%29

Bandinerie is a dance form, hence very rhythmic. This piece is notated as 2/4, but the first tha,thara falls on 2 rather than 1.

Code: Select all

-- tha,thara | tha,thara  tha,thara | thaa

; s gs | p sp g pg | s,

The last note, s, has the downbeat effect. So it has to be notated this way. But if we go by regular 2/4 feel, we might endup emphasising the pa and make the first s gs look like a preparation for that (anacrusis) -- this would be wrong.

; s gs | p sp g pg | s,

Beethoven's 6th Symphony, 2nd movement: Scene by the Brooks (scene am bach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ydwCZBPJ48
It has a very clear 123-123-123-123 rhythm cycle, qualifies for a 4/4 with triplets as in moonlight sonata (Eka thalam Trisra gati). Beethoven chose to notate it as 12/8

Arnold Schoenberg criticised the rhythmic organisation (meter) in western music, and explored the possibilities of alternative notation systems. Composers like Lutoslawski completely abandoned the meter, and avoided writing bar-lines.

Piston wrote: Our musical notation is admittedly inadequate in the indication of rhythm. The use of bar-lines is often misleading as to the distribution of strong beats and as to whether these are up-beats or down-beats. The interpretation of rhythm is nearly always open to differences of opinion.

Does our tala system has the same problems?

ps: sorry if it's off-topic. But I thought the discussion is going this way for quite a while now.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Feb 2011, 17:38

When a young child begins to read Engish poetry, the metre is all, and the meaning is lost.

My heart's in the highlands,
My heart is not here;
My heart's in the highlands
achasing the deer

In fact, it is very difficult, even for a literate adult to read some heavily metered poems without sounding like a machine.

Was it in this very thread that someone linked to a lec-dem of what happens when a youngster starts to learn to play the piano, and why they give up after two or three years? It is rather like what happens with the poetry.

So, with any rhythm structure, certainly including CM and Western, the structure is a guide, not a set of bars.

EDIT: as in prison bars, not musical ones. :$

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2011, 00:32

raguanu, right on! Our discussions in this thread have been about that precisely: Thala vs Laya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2011, 22:23

raguanu,

Regarding your comment on 'Beethoven's 6th Symphony, 2nd movement:', yes that is consistent with what I heard from others. They use the triplet symbol only if the trisram is occasionally used. If the entire song is in trisram, they just do like what Beethaven did and not use the tripet symbol.

i listened to the Bach's Bandinerie and I can keep to the beat from the song and it does not sound syncopated. May be that is not the point you were making but two questions. I know the whole point of your recent post is to point out where these kinds of mappings do not work but at least let me understand it from the Pop music perspective.

a) Does the so called 'downbeat' usually coincide with the vertical bar line? or say in 4/4, there are 2 or 4 downbeats?
b) How are the strong and weak stresses map to the bar? Say in 4/4, the 4 sub-beats get alternating strong and weak beats, typically?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Aug 2011, 06:25

I found a way to record on the iPad the various rhythm settings that we talked about in this thread and more..

The time signature is constant across all these recordings which is 4/4. The tempo is 54 quarter notes per minute.

Given that the time signature is constant, the variations are seen in the staff notation and they exhibit themselves as 'splits' which you can hear. The metronome always beats to the quarter note at the above tempo.

1) Trisram: three speeds. 1/8th triplet ( 3 splits to a quarter note ), 1/16th triplet ( 6 splits to a quarter note ) and the slowest 1/4th triplet ( 3 splits every two quarter note ): http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/trisra ... athi-nadai

2) Chathusram: Four speeds. one split per quarter note, 2 splits per quarter note, 4 splits per quarter note and 8 splits per quarter note.: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/chathu ... eeds-gathi

Now to the dotted notes. These all have one common thing. They feel syncopated and it resolves to the beat boundary on the beginning of the 4th beat where the split and the beat will come together and then diverge. The difference is how many splits it takes every 3 beat duration.

3) 1/4 dotted : http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-fo ... athi-nadai
Each split is 1/4 + 1/8 = 3/8. Two splits take 3 beats to complete.

4) 1/8 dotted: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-ei ... athi-nadai
Each split is 1/8 + 1/16 = 3/16 Four splits take 3 beats to complete.

5) 1/16 dotted: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-si ... tted-gathi
Each split is 1/16 + 1/32 = 3/32 Eight splits take 3 beats to complete.

6) 1/32 dotted: http://soundcloud.com/dabbler125/one-th ... tted-gathi
Each split is 1/32 + 1/64 = 3/64 Sixteen splits take 3 beats to complete.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Aug 2011, 01:13

While playing with the above, another thing occurred to me. We often talk about thala and layam, sometimes to mean different things, sometimes synonymously. I think the above provides a basis for describing the differences.

"Thala is in the time signature and layam is in the staff notation".

So 4/4 is the thala descriptor ( along with some tempo definition to indicate slow, medium or fast tempo indicated by quarter notes per minute )
1/4th note, 1/8th note, etc., 1/4 triplet, 1/8 triplet etc. 1/4th dotted, 1/8th dotted etc. and the symbol for silence etc are layam descriptors.

In CM, the practice is to categorize gathi/naDai ( triplet etc. ) as part of the thala spec but speed ( 1/8, 1/16th ) and note combinations and groupings as part of the composition ( the layam spec ).

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