All DeshAdi Taalam ? ; Any Ptn in this RgMalika Sequence ?

[Sundar Krishnan]

29/9/11

In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjOAyJk ... re=related, Ganesh announces a Ragamalika of St Tyagaraja’s compositions, based on deshAdi Taalam.
Based purely on the added subtext info on the sequence of the Songs / Ragams in this UTb link, there are 22 Ragams, of which 13 Ragams have been repeated in the latter part.

Q1 : Even though they announced that ALL these Ragams would be based on dEshAdi Taalam, I found that when the Song / Ragam subtext is compared with the respective links from http://www.karnatik.com/, 5 of these songs are described to based on Plain Adi Taalam, not deshAdi Taalam. ??

These 5 Songs / Ragams are :

1 : ManoRanjani (= Manavati [5 Mela]).................aTu kArAdani..................Adi ?
9 : BahudAri (from 28 – HK)...............................brOva bhAramA...............Adi ?
10 : Hamsa Nadam (from 60 - Neetimati)...............banTu reeti kOlu.............Adi ?
11 : Gambheera VaNi (from 30 – Naga Nandini).......sadAmadin (matim ?) dalatu gadarA...Adi ?
16 : NagaswarALi (nAgaswarAvaLi) (from 28 - HK)....shrIpatE nIpada cintana jIvanamu........Adi ?

Request some clarification on these 5 Ragams.

[http://www.karnatik.com/ctaala.shtml states : The dEshaadi taaLam starts aadi taaLam after 1/2 beat.]

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The sequence of repetition is like this :
After playing 20 Ragams, repeat the foll 3 Ragams :
Ragams 21 (= 12 : NaLina Kanti), 22 (= 11 : Gambheera VaNi) and 23 (= 10 : Hamsa Nadam) are repeated.
Then, Ragam 24 : Saraswati Manohari (from 28 - HK)........enta vEDukondu O rAghava
Then, repeat 25 (= 15 : KaikaVAshi)
Then, Ragam 26 : Kesari (Sindu KannaDA) (from 25 – Mara Ranjani).....nannu kanna talli
Then, for 9 Ragams 27 to 35, repeat Ragams 9 to 1.

Q2 : Could there be any reason, say a pattern ?, for inserting Ragams 24 and 26 in the above manner between 3 Sets of Repetition Ragams ? (one Set comprising 3 Repeat Ragams in reverse order, the 2nd set comprising just one Ragam 15, and the 3rd Set comprising the first 9 Ragams, also in reverse order) ?

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Thanks in Advance (TIA)

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[mohan]

deshAdi is a special variety of Adi tAla where the eduppu is one and a half beats from samam. See http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6287 and http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... di#p204136

[Sundar Krishnan]

30/9/11

Mohan,

Thanks for yr comments on deshAdi Taalam, and the links.

A) Any comments on my specific Queries Q1 and Q2 in Post # 1 ?

Wrt Q1, I would like to know why great artistes like G-K, after explicitly publicly announcing that they would be playing only deshAdi Taalam based songs of T, chose to play these 5 Song / Ragams, whose “original-defined” Taalam is Adi, and not deshAdi.

I am going purely by the added subtext info on the sequence of the Songs / Ragams in the UTb link, and comparing with the Taalam info as given in karnatik.com for these 5 Songs / Ragams.

Similar sentiment is expressed by RaviSri in Post # 18 in the link you sent me :
“Many people including Kanchipuram Naina Pillai have changed dEshAdi to Adi just to suit their percussionists.”
But, he also (correctly) adds : “They have also therefore changed the original bANi of singing the dEshAdi songs.”

I hope Q2 – is there any Pattern – is quite clear.


B) Is there a diff between what you have stated {deshAdi’s eduppu is 1.5 beats from samam } (also Post #3 dt 3/8/08 in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6287) on the one hand, and http://www.karnatik.com/ctaala.shtml on the other, which states that the dEshaadi taaLam starts aadi taaLam after 1/2 beat.
The complete sentence in http://www.karnatik.com/ctaala.shtml is :
“The dEshaadi taaLam starts aadi taaLam after 1/2 beat, and the madhyaadi taaLam starts after 3/4 of a beat, even though these originally were written to be 3 beats and a wave.”

So, the Starting Beat Position of both deshAdi and madhyAdi seem to be at variance in this karnatik.com article vs rasikas...6287 ??


C) In CM (not Movie Songs based on CM, but traditional CM), I would like to know 5 Songs / Ragams, which are played in a defined MadhyAdi Taalam.

TIA

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[vasanthakokilam]

These songs come to my mind as half eduppu songs ( Madhyadi, by definition ).

Rama katha sudha - Madhyamavathi - Thyagaraja
Siva Siva Siva - Pantuvarali - Thyagaraja
Brahma Kadigina Padamu - Mukhari - Annamacharya
Hari Narayana - Kedaram - Purandaradasa
Meru Samana - Mayamalava Gowla - Thyagaraja

[Sundar Krishnan]

3/10/11

Thanks for the 5 Egs.

However, if we compare with karnatik.com links of these songs, we don’t have an exact match for 4 of the 5 songs ?? :

Rama Katha Sudha - Madhyamavati – T : MadhyAdi, so Fine.
http://www.karnatik.com/c2751.shtml

Shiva Shiva Shiva - PantuVarALi – T : Rpkm ??
http://www.karnatik.com/c1443.shtml

Brahma Kadigina PAdamu - MukhAri – AC : Adi ??
http://www.karnatik.com/c1572.shtml

Hari NArayaNa – KedAram ? – PD : Revati ??, Adi ??
http://www.karnatik.com/c1099.shtml
Or, are you referring to any other PD song ?

Meru SamAna - MMG – T : deshAdi ??
http://www.karnatik.com/c2560.shtml

Because of the above mismatches wrt yr Post # 4, pl let me know if the info provided in any of the above karnatik.com links, links of this site, which we often take as Bible-ref, is wrong in it’s exactness of info.

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In Point (B) of Post # 3, I had also requested for an exact definition clarification regarding the confusion :
“So, the Starting Beat Position of both deshAdi and madhyAdi seem to be at variance in this karnatik.com article vs rasikas...6287 ??”
Pl read the full details of the query in Point (B) of Post # 3.

Again, I would like to know if the karnatik.com article needs to be corrected wrt it's definition of deshAdi and madhyAdi, OR ...

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Any comments on Points A – Q1, Q2 ? (pl refer Post # 1 and Post # 3)

TIA

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[vasanthakokilam]

A lot of times, both Desadi and madhyadi are referred to using their generic equivalent "Adi".

The five examples I provided seemed to me to start at half eduppu. I am going by the definition that all 1/2 eduppu songs are Madhyadi. If there is any mistake in what I mentioned, I urge other members to correct. Same with Meru Samana.

By definition, 1 1/2 eduppu songs are Deshadi. If Karnatik.com reversed the definition, then they have to correct it.

Siva siva is not rupakam. It is Adi. Whether it is Madhyadi or not, I will let members here confirm.

I do not know the answers to your other questions.

[mohan]

For your original Q1, all the 5 songs mentioned are in deshAdi (eduppu being 1 1/2 from samam) although many sources may list them as the generic 'adi'.

For Q2 - some of the songs are elaborated with improvisation in more detail. Towards the end they play one line from various songs/ragas and then they sum up with half an avartanam of various ragas.

The definitions on karnatik.com are incorrect with respect to deshadi and madhyadi. vasantakokilam's definitions above are more appropriate.

[Sundar Krishnan]

3/10/11

Thanks to Mohan for confirming that Vasanthakokilam’s definition in the 2 figures of Post #3 dt 3/8/08 in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6287 is the correct definition for deshAdi and madhyAdi etc.

Thanks also for confirming that ALL the 5 songs of Q1 in Post # 1 of this Thread are actually in deshAdi Taalam – so G-K are therefore correct, and ALL their 22 distinct (Songs / Ragams) were in deshAdi Taalam – as they announced.

My query in Q2 in other words is this :
Instead of playing ALL the 22 Songs/Ragams at one stretch, and then playing a few of them in the reverse order (13 in this case), they played 20 Songs/Ragams first, then played 21, 22, 23 in the reverse order of 12, 11, 10, then the 21st Song / Ragam : enta vEDukondu in Saraswati Manohari, then 25 as a repeat of 15, then the 22nd Song / Ragam : nannu kanna in Kesari, and then the last 9 Ragams as a repeat in the reverse order of 9 to 1.

So, I was curious to know the reason behind : why 3 Sets of Repetition Ragams ?

Often in Ragamalikas, like for eg, in a recent one about 3-4 yrs ago, Kanyakumari played so many Ragams, and then played them all in the exact reverse order ; there were no mix-ups like the case here.

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Other open queries in the Thread so far :

Post # 6 : Vasanthakokilam has left it open for others to comment on the flavour of Adi Taalam of Shiva Shiva.

Post # 5 : Is Hari NarayaNa sung commonly in KedAram ? or Revati ?
I assume that she was referring to this song :
http://www.karnatik.com/c1099.shtml

If some member of this Forum may also be associated with karnatik.com, I request them to take up the corrections suggested in this thread – so that people like me, who take the songs’ links in karnatik.com as a “ref”, get the exact correct info.

TIA

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[rshankar]

Here is the link to provide feedback to the team at karnatik.com