Concept korvai

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chitravina ravikiran
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Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Concept korvai

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Here is a concept for korvais or even simple finishes that I have been working on. I'd like percussionists and rhythm enthusiast rasikas to take a look at an example (for Adi tala) below and give me your feedback. The concept can be employed in kalpana swaras as well as percussion improvs.

ta - tam . - takiTa - takatakiTa - ta dhi . ki . | Ta . tom - ta .. dhi . | . ki . . Ta . . tom || (can be rendered 3 times as well).

MaheshS
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by MaheshS »

For novices like me, can you also include swaras for the above korvai in say Mohanam? It makes it easier to visualise, hopefully this does not distract things. Thanks!

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sri Ravikiran: Very nice. Enjoyed playing a few random bits to that pattern. ( Since Mahesh asked, my first pattern was G P. GRS RSDDP D S. R. G. D P.. G.. R.. S.. R - just as a sample)

One question. A short followed by a long has an implicit eduppu with the beat stress fallingon the beginning of the long which means the beginning short falls in between beats. I see your alignment is on the beat ( sama eduppu ). Is that intentional to create a tension which we normally sense in kOrvais? Will it still work if I shift it so the beginning 'ta' is not on the beat?

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

VK: It is intended to work for any eduppu.

Mahesh: Let me give an example in Hamsadhwani (for say, Vatapi ganapatim):

G - R , - G R S - G R S N P - R S , N , P , G - P , , G , , R , , S , , R || (Vatapi) (It can be rendered 3 times with varying swaras too, before landing on the song.)

My question is: does the pattern come through as sensible and logical? Aesthetically, it can be quite attractive if rendered well.

MV
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by MV »

Much like. Ok to steal?

sureshvv
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by sureshvv »

@VK: Can you play and upload? Pretty please :-) ?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ravikiran, yes it does look logical and sensible to me. Your well written notation was very helpful in comprehending it for an amateur like me.

Suresh: This is dangerous grounds ;) but since you asked here is my attempt: http://soundcloud.com/carnatic-music-up ... k-korvai-1

I really do not know how to play a Korvai. Not sure aesthetically this is what RK had in mind.

SahanaVasud
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by SahanaVasud »

chitravina ravikiran wrote: ta - tam . - takiTa - takatakiTa - ta dhi . ki . | Ta . tom - ta .. dhi . | . ki . . Ta . . tom || (can be rendered 3 times as well).
Ravikiran Sir,
Is this intended to be the Fibonacci sequence?
ta = 1, tam . = 2, takiTa = 3, takatakiTa = 5, ta dhi . ki . Ta . tom = 8, ta .. dhi .. ki .. Ta .. tom = 13
A similar sequence will work for Khanda triputa, tisra nadai 2 kalai = 54 aksharams. In this case, we need to add an extra first term of 1 since 1+2+3+5+8+13+21=53, but this is okay because it does not alter the pattern of the Fibonacci numbers (since some consider the Fibonacci numbers to start with 1, 1, 2, 3, etc. instead of 1, 2, 3, etc.).
In this case, we have the following korvai:
ta - ka - tam . - takiTa - takatakiTa - tadhi.ki.ta.tom - ta..dhi..ki..Ta|..tom - ta...ka...ta|...ki...Ta...thom||
In general, if we consider korvais of consecutive Fibonacci numbers starting from either 1, 2, 3, etc. or 1, 1, 2, 3, etc., then we can use the fact that 1+1+2+...+F_n = F_(n+2) - 1 (where F_n denotes the nth Fibonacci number) to find all the common talams for which we can make a korvai like this. The number of aksharams in the talam must be either some Fibonacci number -1 or some Fibonacci number -2 (for the cases when we start from 1, 1, 2, 3 etc. and 1, 2, 3, etc. respectively). Since all the common talams have a minimum of around 12 aksharams, we only need to consider Fibonacci numbers greater than 12. We can do a case-by-case analysis.
Case 1) 13: 13-1=12, 13-2=11. 11 is prime, so we can disregard this case (since most talams have a composite number of aksharas). For 12 aksharams, we have roopaka talam, so in this case, we get ta - ka - tam. - takiTa - takatakiTa
Case 2) 21: 21-1=20, 21-2=19. Again, 19 is prime. For 20, we have khanda ekam, chatusra nadai (or chatusra ekam, khanda nadai), and the korvai is: ta - ka - tam. - takiTa - takatakiTa - tadhi.ki.Ta.tom
Case 3) 34: 34-1=33, 34-2=32 which is your original korvai. For 33, we have misra jati triputa talam, tisra nadai, and the korvai is: ta - ka - tam. - takiTa - takatakiTa - tadhi.ki.Ta.tom - ta..dhi..ki..Ta..tom (which is your original korvai with an extra 1 aksharam added at the beginning).
Case 4) 55: 55-1=54, which gives the the korvai I wrote in the beginning, 55-2=53 which is prime.
This analysis can be continued for higher Fibonacci numbers.

Sahana

sureshvv
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by sureshvv »

VK.. Thanks. Sounded great, Still trying to wrap my brain around this.

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, I am unable to see any logic in your pattern. Even aesthetically I don’t think it is not that much attractive. See the following and tell me how it is.

G R , - G R S , - G R S N , - G R S N | P , - G R S N P G | , - G R S N P G R || Vaataapi Ganapathim Bhaje ||

- amsharma

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear,

You can see this one also:

G R , - G R S , - G R S N , - G R S N | P , - G R S N P G | , - G R S N P G R ||

S R , - S R G , - S R G P , - S R G P | N , - S R G P N S | , - S R G P N S R ||

G R , - G R S , - G R S N , - G R S N | P , - G R S N P G | , - G R S N P G R || Vaataapi ||

- amsharma

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Akella garu,

This is uncanny indeed! The korvai you have given - even in terms of swaras - is exactly what I came up with too and have been playing in my concerts for several years! It is a very interesting one - I had used it as a teaser to many good artistes. It will appear simple and aesthetic at first level, wrong at the next level until further analysis will prove it right.

Sahana: Excellent! You have almost hit the nail on the head and also expanded upon it. Before I give a detailed answer, I will explain my rationale:

Till date, musicians of both CM and HM (and other systems that I have heard so far) have been dealing with simple arithmatic sequences. Even though much of it is 3rd/4th grade math, there is infinite scope in it and even today, it is a very exciting and rewarding area for me. So, I thought it maybe nice to explore and introduce some other sequences and see if they can be presented aesthetically too and came up with this was a sampler.

Suresh: Sorry, I am not savvy about playing it and uploading it! If I were in India, my disciples would help but I am on a concert tour in Brazil now. I am glad that VK has taken the initiative to try it out and also share it!
Is this intended to be the Fibonacci sequence?

It is intended to be similar to it though not limited to it. If it were simple Fibonacci,

(a) we'd be saddled with 1, 1, 2, 3 etc and
(b) no matter what the tala and gati, the sequence would almost be the same.

My concept is as below:

1. It is desirable to keep it to a single 1, if 1 is our starting point. The next numbers are is 2, 3 (2+1), 5 (3+2), 8 (5+3), etc.

2. The korvai can start with any number, say 3. The sequence would then be 3, 4, 7, 11, 18....
If the korvai starts with 4, the sequence is: 4, 5, 9, 14, 23 ......

This approach will give musical variety to the concept. We could perhaps call it Qualified Fibonacci (QF) sequences.

3. Finally, in large korvais with 2 or more parts, the QF sequences can be just the first part of the korvai and the second part can have conventional strong finishes.

Ex 1: Adi (2 kalais): 3, 4, 7, 11, 18 can be the first part and 3 mishrams can be the final part in say Kamalambam bhajare, Kalyani...

G,, - R,,, - G,R,SND - GRSNDPMGRSN - DN,R,, G | M,D,, MD,N,, - G, R, S | ND - R,S,NDP - D,P,MGR ||(Kamalambam)

Ex 2: Khanda Chapu: 4, 5, 9, 14 = first part and 3x6 is final part.

G,,, - R,,,, - G || , R, S, N, D - R, || ,S,,N,,D,, || P, - GR,SND - RS || ,NDP - DP,MGR||
S,,, - R,,,, - S || , R, G, M, P - R, || ,G,,M,,P,, || D, - SR,GMP - RG || ,MPD - PD,NSR||
G,,, - R,,,, - G || , R, S, N, D - R, || ,S,,N,,D,, || P, - GR,SND - RS || ,NDP - GM,PDN|| (Guruleka)

This concept opens up a whole new world of possibilities in the music world. But only practical singing/playing can show individual korvai's concert-worthiness/limitations.

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, Except in the ending muktayis of them I don’t find any aesthetic in the concept you have furnished. amsharma

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Ah, that's where the musician's skill and application come in, Akella garu. Someone of your caliber can definitely make it aesthetic. I have given just a couple of rudimentary examples. There are endless possibilities which can be explored. As I said, only practical renditions will enable one to hone in on the most aesthetic ones. At the end of the day, individual listening preferences also plays a major role.

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, In my younger age I did so many things like this and, now, at this age I would like to conserve all my energies only to find ways and means in enlightening our kids in all respects as, in general, this has never been done by any music-teacher in the past. In this process, I feel it as my duty that some of the things of our music must be standardized possibly to make them easier to our kids. For this purpose only I have given up even my lucrative artistic career as professional-violinist and also as money swindling music-teacher right from the date of my retirement. amsharma

erode14
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by erode14 »

Great and reminds UKS Sir's mOrA :)

thakita, thakadhina, thadhikiNathom, thadhi,kiNathom, tha,dhi,kiNathom, thakita thadhikiNathom, tha,dhi,ki,NA,thom
thaLan,gu dhintha thom,,,
thaLan,gu dhintha thom,,,

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

I join sureshvv in requesting Raviji to upload a sample!

SahanaVasud
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by SahanaVasud »

Ravikiran sir: Thanks for the details.

We can try to incorporate other integer sequences also. The natural extension from arithmetic progressions would be geometric progressions (which I, in my limited experience, have not seen used as often as arithmetic progressions), but the problem is they blow up too quickly (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc, 1, 3, 9, 27, etc, and 3, 6, 12, 24 are probably the one of the only ones that are usable (even 2, 6, 18, etc. blows up quickly)). So there is less variety than arithmetic sequences. However, we can consider other additive recursive sequences (i.e. anything of the form F_n = (some linear combination (ex. F_n = aF_(n-1)+bF_(n-2)+cF_(n-3) where a, b, c are arbitrary integers) of previous terms) too, a slight generalization of Ravikiran sir's original intent. The difference between these sequences and arithmetic progressions is that the structural symmetry is much more obvious in the latter, which can lead to a perception that the former is unaesthetic.
G,, - R,,, - G,R,SND - GRSNDPMGRSN - DN,R,, G | M,D,, MD,N,, - G, R, S | ND - R,S,NDP - D,P,MGR ||
Also, here is my attempt at the Kalyani korvai above (repeated 3 times): http://snd.sc/ySuoHV.

Sahana

sureshvv
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by sureshvv »

This thread is so cool :-) !!

mahavishnu
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by mahavishnu »

Sahana, excellent korvai. I found it very aesthetically appealing as well.
also liked your inspired brigha at the end :)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sahana, very good. It is great to follow the notation along with your excellent singing.
The progression 3, 4, 7 and 11 produces good aesthetics. The ending 3 misrams provide the necessary familiarity which acts as a good resolution to the tension the ever increasing pUrvAngA produces.

I have a question about that middle. You have taken the 18 and split it into 3 sixes. That worked out great. I wonder how it will sound if you had sung the 18 straight, like how did the 11.

sureshvv
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by sureshvv »

G,, - R,,, - G,R,SND - GRSNDPMGRSN - DN,R,, G | M,D,, MD,N,, - G, R, S | ND - R,S,NDP - D,P,MGR ||
OK.. Here goes my stupid question for the day:

How are the '-'s in the above perceived when singing/playing? Do they correspond
to the tala? Would be logical but doesn't appear to be so, at least to my hearing.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Ranganayaki »

Phrasing marks, I believe, Suresh. They do not correspond to any length of time. It would be just a quick break to start a new phrase.

It's not a stupid question. Do you ask one each day :D?
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 23 Jan 2012, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.

SahanaVasud
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by SahanaVasud »

Thanks all for your kind words.

VK: If the 18 were sung straight, like the 11, then one cannot differentiate between the two (it would sound like 11+18=29).

sureshvv: As Ranganayaki mentioned, the - are meant to separate the korvai into parts where one can easily see the sequence.

Sahana

sureshvv
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by sureshvv »

SahanaVasud wrote:
VK: If the 18 were sung straight, like the 11, then one cannot differentiate between the two (it would sound like 11+18=29).
Not sure I agree. You can still delineate the 18 from the 11.

But I think your dividing as 3x6 is really what makes the whole thing work(sound great). So all the arithmetic is moot :-)

In fact, I hear only 7, 11, 6, 6, 6 - so the whole fibonacci thing seems retrofitted. But if that was the inspiration behind this, I think you did well to camouflage the infrastructure :-)

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, sureshvv, Yes, this thread is so cool as I, already stamped as a controversial person, did not intend to continue my dialogue by questioning the authentic-serial-number of any of these rhythmical forms as, presently, I am engaged in the process of enlightening our kids in respect of the rhythmical forms which could be understood, remembered and utilised very easily and efficiently by them in their Svarakalpana.

In fact, while a rhythmical form is brought out its pattern along with its authentic-serial-number must be furnished to prove its authenticity as per the Prastara-prana of Taladashapranas. But, most fortunately, right from Nisshanka Sharngadeva the Great all the authors of the treatises saved all of us by helping this topic vanish even from our music literature itself. That is why, presently, except very few who have learnt this topic from me, no other musician has the knowledge of obtaining this authentic-serial-number of any rhythmical form and even if I question people may take me as a mentally retarded person. That is why I did not continue my dialogue and this thread is so cool. amsharma

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Sahana,

You are quite correct about GP numbers getting unwieldly very quickly, which is why I did not include it for the initial part of our discussions at least. Small sequences can be used very selectively but we can get to it down the line. However, I will give a quick example of a korvai in 2 parts for Adi 2 kalai which I tried and found to have musical potential:

Part I is: 8, 12, 18, 27 (the 18 and 27 have to be split aesthetically)
Part II is: 36, 18, 9 (which can be rendered as sankeernam in 3 speeds)

I also heard your demo audio of the Kalyani korvai swaras I had given as an example. As nice as it is, I am sure that you may also find it fascinating to come up with different ways to render the same korvai (esp. the 18 and final 7x3).

Sivaramakrishnan,

Now that I'm back home, I'll see if I can upload some examples.

Akella garu,

This formula/approach may not necessarily complement/counter prastara. It is based on a different method of number sequences, as I am sure you would have realised.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

In fact, while a rhythmical form is brought out its pattern along with its authentic-serial-number must be furnished to prove its authenticity as per the Prastara-prana of Taladashapranas.
Ravikiran: Noted that the mathematical basis for your thinking is orthogonal to prasthara ( neither complement it nor counter it as you wrote ), but I do have a question for Akellaji on this matter.

Akellaji:

I thought ( probably mistakenly ) that the serial-number you talk about is for the talas and not for the composed rhythmical forms like a Korvai. Are there serials numbers in the prasthara for any kOrvai? If so, are there serial numbers for the two example kOrvais that you furnished earlier in this thread?

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, sureshvv, Yes, this thread is so cool as I, already stamped as a controversial person, did not intend to continue my dialogue by questioning the significant-serial number of any of these rhythmical forms as, presently, I am engaged in the process of enlightening our kids in respect of the rhythmical forms which could be understood, remembered and utilised very easily and efficiently by them in their Svarakalpana.

In fact, while a rhythmical form is brought out its pattern along with its significant-serial-number must be furnished to prove its authenticity as per the Prastara-prana of Taladashapranas. But, most fortunately, right from Nisshanka Sharngadeva the Great all the authors of the treatises saved all of us by helping this topic vanish even from our music literature itself. That is why, presently, except very few who have learnt this topic from me, no other musician has the knowledge of obtaining this ssignificant-serial-number of any rhythmical form and even if I question people may take me as a mentally retarded person. That is why I did not continue my dialogue and this thread is so cool. amsharma

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, Just like in respect of any particular figure i.e., 128 or 30987 or 97867564534231 there will be only one such figure in the universe and won’t be another 128 or 30987 or 97867564534231. That is the precision of mathematics and the same applies even to each and every rhythmical form of the universe. Unless you go deep into the Prastara-prana of Taladashapranas you can’t realise this but you think I didn’t realise. It is but natural.

Chi. Vasanthakokilam dear, Today, just now, when I have opened our website I didn’t find my post and thinking it is, somehow, missing I have posted it again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

There is no rhythmical form beyond Prastara (combinatorics) and each and every rhythmical form has very authentic and significant-serial-number of its own in the universe. But, people are not at all aware of it as the technique to get this singnificant-serial-number has been lost long long ago and has never been furnished even by the handful of knowledgeable experts for the posterity. Now, if I talk about it people may think it Greek or Latin. If you give me any rhythmical form I am ready to furnish its authentic and significant-serial-number even though you do not have the knowledge to check and cross check it. amsharma

mri_fan
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by mri_fan »

Why is Sri Ravikiran being refered to as Chi. Ravikiran on this thread? Isn't he a married + old enough to be called a Sri? I understand that the senior violinist, Sri MA Sakella has seniority on Sri Ravikiran, is there something I'm missing???

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

It is always a blessing to be called as Chi by a senior artiste such as Akella garu.

That said, Akella garu, I'd like to reiterate my stance:

Formulas that I have spoken about are not in contravention to any lakshana or prastara krama. Nor will they come up with any unauthentic number for any tala. The korvais and concepts I have expounded upon are based on highly precise mathematical principles and quite distinct from certain lakshya-based 'mano-laya' concepts (which I am also familiar with). The only distinction is that since, this territory has not so far been explored before, it may not be mentioned in any dasha-prana chapters written so far.

However, I request you to kindly furnish the serial numbers you have mentioned for the korvai structures I have given.

rshankar
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by rshankar »

mri_fan wrote:Why is Sri Ravikiran being refered to as Chi. Ravikiran on this thread? Isn't he a married + old enough to be called a Sri? I understand that the senior violinist, Sri MA Sakella has seniority on Sri Ravikiran, is there something I'm missing???
As I understand it, Chi. refers to ciraMjIvi or someone who lives forever, and is applicable to boys and men, and women too. Sri. refers to SrImAn, someone who is endowed with 16 different kinds of wealth (of the padinArum peTRu fame) - and since that is typically assumed to occur when a saubhAgyavati complements a man's life, it is traditional to refer to married men as SrImAn. I have seen men referred to as 'Chi. Sri' and women as 'Chi. Sow'.
Last edited by rshankar on 24 Jan 2012, 23:01, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, What you wrote is absolutely true. You are doing a very nice job. There is nothing to find fault with you in the job you are doing. I sincerely appreciate you.

Even though you are not aware of it what you have been doing is also available in Prastara. Now you are only discovering it and I am extremely happy of that. Please continue that.

In respect of your korvais if they pertain to Adi-tala-slow-tempo consisting of 64-units in each Avarta I have to deal with the 19 digits figure ‘92233720368547755808’ of 64-units and find the significant-serial-numbers of all of your korvais. If you furnish them serially with all the consisting units in terms of figures I shall do it.

At this age I conserve all my energies to serve the cause of music which helps our kids enormously and only by the grace of the Almighty I have been doing it. I do nothing else. But, I shall certainly do it for you if you promise me to learn this topic and sincerely do the needful for the propagation of this topic and for the posterity. I am interested only in that. amsharma

Ranganayaki
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Ranganayaki »

I agree with Ravi (rshankar), I don't think Chiranjeevi is demeaning in any way, though "Ravikiran dear" - well - ... :D. --- May be that is ok too and is not meant to be patronizing.

Whether Sri AMSharma or any of us see beauty in this korvai is immaterial, as artistic tastes are subjective. We do not need to convince each other of the beauty or the lack of it (it is just nice that Ravikiran is asking for our views).

But will Sri AMSharma or anyone else explain what we are discussing her for others like me who have no idea? Is this a mystical number he is talking about which is not referred to in any traditional reference works on CM? That is what it sounds like to me, otherwise, I imagine Ravikiran, as a researcher, would have access to the information himself.

Whatever it is, since Sri msakella has mentioned this in front of everyone else, he should tell us what this serial number is and how he arrived at it without conditions imposed on Ravikiran. After all, Ravikiran has taken the trouble to compose something that came out of his head and share it with us.

If he chooses not to share it because it is not worth his while without the promise, then I don't know why someone like Ravikiran, who does not have access to this information and MAY not feel interested in it yet , should (promise a priori and)feel it is worth his while to "learn the topic" and take precious time from his other research, learning and practice for "sincerely doing the needful" to propagate this topic.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Ponbhairavi »

a small side stepping which does not have anything to do with korvais.
In many wedding invitations the abbreviations of chi and sow are commonly found.both are wrong in English format.sow followedby a full stop means a female pig.( What a bad way of welcoming a would be daughter-in-law!!).Better not to shorten sowbhagyavathi. Ch is not the beginning letters of Siranjeevi.careful it is not siramseevi which means one who cuts the head. it should be siranjeevi. In tamil script சிரஞ்சீவி is wrong.it should beசிர ஞ்ஜீவி( jeevan, jeevithal ,jeevitham which means life.)

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

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Last edited by Pratyaksham Bala on 25 Jan 2012, 10:18, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ranganayaki: The serial numbers that akellaji refers to have been talked about in other threads in this forum under talaprasthara, combinatorics etc. It is a big topic in itself on which Sri. Akellaji has written the only authoritative book.
The material is not a secret by any means, in fact what we hear in Akellaji's writing is his heavy sigh ('angalAippu') that few take interest in this topic which he has spent decades researching, understanding and clarifying. A lot of errors and confusions have crept in over the centuries and Akellaji has brought the material back to good standing. That is a monumental achievement indeed.

We have probably diversified away from what Ravikiran originally intended in this thread, as it often happens in many interesting threads. We will have to sort it out later on, if the divergence de-focusses the main topic.

The theoretical question for me now is: is the combinatorial mathematics ( and the resulting sequences ) of tala prasthara include the sequences that Fibonocii produces. May be one can show mathematically if they are or not. Mathematicians typically like these kinds of problems as a pastime!!

cmlover
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by cmlover »

VK
However our sarmaji should explain how he arrived at that 19 digit number using combinatorics which some of us may understand..

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML: I agree.

In addition, it looks like Akellaji would like more people to learn and propagate this knowledge. So he is trying to encourage Ravikiran towards that for very good reasons. Others should join too. Are you ready to join?

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Concept korvai

Post by cmlover »

I think in the interest of knowledge we should all join and cooperate..

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Yes, I agree. It will be interesting to learn that as a group, so there is synergy and reinforced motivation.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Ranganayaki: The serial numbers that akellaji refers to have been talked about in other threads in this forum under talaprasthara, combinatorics etc. It is a big topic in itself on which Sri. Akellaji has written the only authoritative book.
The material is not a secret by any means, in fact what we hear in Akellaji's writing is his heavy sigh ('angalAippu') that few take interest in this topic which he has spent decades researching, understanding and clarifying. A lot of errors and confusions have crept in over the centuries and Akellaji has brought the material back to good standing. That is a monumental achievement indeed.
VK, I heard the lament, and the sigh, and I felt for Sri Akella. I have sensed the respect you and some others hold him in, and did educate myself on his contributions. My question does not undermine the value of any of that. I just thought it was not too fair to Ravikiran to extract a promise ahead of time and make a condition of it in exchange for the information.

I tried to find out what talaprasthara is, but there is very little information and nowhere did I find an introduction to the topic. Where Mr. Akella speaks, he delves right into some complexities (I looked at the rasikas conversation on it, and it does not enlighten either...

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

At the first instance, I beg all your pardon, for furnishing a wrong figure of digits of 19 instead of 20 for the figure ‘‘92233720368547755808’ which reminds my old age.

Ranganayaki dear – Yes, as you wrote ‘Chiranjeevi’ is a very affectionate and loving word in addressing a younger person but not a demeaning word at all. I have accompanied Chi. Ravikiran on Violin with love and affection in his concert when he was a kid of 5 or 6 years of age. More over, as I am a very good friend of his father Shri Narasimhan still I see him as a kid even though he is married, grown up, became the father of his kids and a great Vidwan.

I did not mean that there is no beauty at all in his korvais but I feel that they are less aesthetic if they are viewed in respect of small kids learning music.

In respect of the 20 digits figure ‘92233720368547755808’ of 64-units it is not a mystic figure at all and it could very easily be obtained basing on a formula which I am not acquainted being an uneducated person. Even though I was not that much educated like you people, I was compelled to always deal with this kind of figures and many more other complexities of the rarest topic ‘Talaprastara’ in the absence of either calculator or computer as this has absolutely been vanished by all our ancestors due to their innocence or ignorance. Even though I did not find anybody on earth to properly decipher and teach this topic to me I was graciously blessed by the Almighty to bring out all the details of this topic in four decades. I wrote three books of their own kind on this topic and I have already taught the basics of this topic to more than hundred aspirants in our State of Andhra Pradesh and few in the States of Tamil-nadu and Karnataka also. And I have taken this as the mission of my life to share this information with anybody. But, unlike many other professionals, when Chi. Ravikiran openly and inquisitively asked me the serial-numbers of his korvais, just to make him more knowledgeable even in this rare area, I proposed a condition to learn this topic. This condition is only to make him more knowledgeable but not to aggrandise my personal image. Having graciously been blessed by the Almighty with plenty of anything in my life I need not expect anything from any body on earth at this fag end of my life.

Vasanthakokilam dear – Any kind of mathematical sequence includes in Talaprastara (combinatorics) if it abides the general norm of using full figures without any fractions. amsharma

tiruvarur
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by tiruvarur »

With all due respect, does every mention of the word 'tala' warrant a repeated mention of 'talaprasthara' and Sri. A M Sharma's sole possession of this knowledge?

msakella
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, tiruvarur, I already had many bitter experiences with some anonymous members and feel repulsive to respond except with some known gentle-men.

However, I would like to make it clear that this Prastara is not my own topic but our topic which has long ago been lost due to the ignorance of our ancestors. By the grace of the Almighty I have very graciously been blessed with this topic and, now, I declare that I am the only person having full knowledge of this topic on earth.

I would also like to make it clear that Tala has ten elements, Pranas and, naturally, without the element, Prastara, there is no Tala in the universe. amsharma

cmlover
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by cmlover »

Dear Sarmaji
The number still is quite mysterious to us. It must be possible to cast your calculations in mathematical terms. Ideally VK is the smart one among us who can learn it from you and cast it in a simple mathematical language that is accessible to all of us. I urge you to communicate your discovery of the complex laws/methods of Talaprastara for the benefit of enlightening all of us who are eager to learn this ancient methodology to decipher which you have devoted a life-time.

ShrutiLaya
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Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 01:15

Re: Concept korvai

Post by ShrutiLaya »

Sarma garu,

I confess I am curious about this 20 digit number too. Is this like a "fingerprint" of the Korvai, so that you can identify if a given one matches something else (sort of like an SHA-1 key or md5sum)? Or is it actually reversible ie if someone gives you this 20 digit number, can you reconstruct the korvai? If so, this is both too big and too small; 20 digits will generate 10^20 unique korvais! And it should still (theoretically) be possible to generate one that will not fit even if "it abides the general norm of using full figures without any fractions".

- Sreenadh

Ranganayaki
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Ranganayaki »

msakella wrote:At the first instance, I beg all your pardon, for furnishing a wrong figure of digits of 19 instead of 20 for the figure ‘‘92233720368547755808’ which reminds my old age.
Akella garu, you are forgiven :D. I don't think any of us would have discovered it, nor can we now tell which of those digits has been added! :D
Ranganayaki dear –

I did not mean that there is no beauty at all in his korvais but I feel that they are less aesthetic if they are viewed in respect of small kids learning music.
I think I understand that you feel that a small child cannot perceive the progression (is that a good word?) that is the basis of the korvai? If that is the case, I am left wondering how these children can comprehend these numbers and formulae and 20-digit result involving "64 units" that you want to teach them.. I am completely confused.
In respect of the 20 digits figure ‘92233720368547755808’ of 64-units it is not a mystic figure at all and it could very easily be obtained basing on a formula which I am not acquainted being an uneducated person. Even though I was not that much educated like you people, I was compelled to always deal with this kind of figures and many more other complexities of the rarest topic ‘Talaprastara’ in the absence of either calculator or computer as this has absolutely been vanished by all our ancestors due to their innocence or ignorance
.

Akellagaru, I am unable to understand your words. You say that this number can be obtained using a formula you don't know as you are "uneducated". This means you should not be able to arrive at this figure. Yet you have arrived at it - all by yourself. That is a contradiction that I am unable to unravel. Then again you say that in spite of being less educated than others in the group, you have been able to deal with these complexities without the aid of a calculator or computer. This means that education or the lack of it is completely irrelevant. This too is in contradiction to your statement about what you don't know "being uneducated".

This almost convinces me that these numbers you are referring to are mystical. Only mysticism can tolerate such contradictions. However, I did look at the other thread re. combinatorics, and though I did not understand much of it at first glance, it seems to be rooted in mathematics and logic, going by the responses of others and their extrapolation of what you explained with one example.

If you can explain in a simple way what we are talking about, it would be very helpful to have a meaningful discussion, at least one that has meaning to more than just a couple of us.

If you can make your writings available in English in this website so that we can muddle through it a little at a time, it will be very helpful and you will be doing a GREAT deal to propagate what you wish to propagate. There are many in this group that are very smart with numbers. If you do not have the time or resources to do this for us, I am sure one of the dozens of your aspirants can do it in the interest of propagation. This would be much more helpful than relying on one person to promise to propagate.

I did not think for a second that any of this had anything to do with "aggrandizing your personal image" or any other ulterior motive.



Ponbhairavi wrote:a small side stepping which does not have anything to do with korvais.
In many wedding invitations the abbreviations of chi and sow are commonly found.both are wrong in English format.sow followedby a full stop means a female pig.( What a bad way of welcoming a would be daughter-in-law!!).Better not to shorten sowbhagyavathi. Ch is not the beginning letters of Siranjeevi.careful it is not siramseevi which means one who cuts the head. it should be siranjeevi. In tamil script சிரஞ்சீவி is wrong.it should beசிர ஞ்ஜீவி( jeevan, jeevithal ,jeevitham which means life.)
Ponbhairavi, I don't follow what you say. Are you saying that the TAMIL way of writing Chiranjeevi is wrong? I don't see any problem with abbreviating it to Chi. in English .

Chi. and Sow. were fine in the seventies till suddenly people started saying that Sow. meant a pig and was not acceptable. I think it is just a fault-finding attitude, there are a lot of word-pairs that are homonyms and are not considered as identical words. We could simply consider that the abbreviation of Sowbhagyavathi is like a homonym of "sow", the female pig, but does not mean the same thing. Why can we not simply see the beauty referred to in the word and leave the unkindness it does not refer to alone?

I haven't grasped the problem with "Chi.". "Chiranjeevi" is how I would write the sanskrit word in English (may be with an M instead of an N, sure) and the abbreviation Chi. sounds fine to me. We don't HAVE to use them, though.

Do let me know if I have understood you wrong.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Concept korvai

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ranganayaki wrote:[
I think it is just a fault-finding attitude...
:D Just remembered that I have relatives who would (they still do :D) snap up wedding invitations when they came in and read them through, just to find the English (mainly) or Tamil/Kannada/sampradaya mistakes in them.

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