Age to start learning carnatic music

To teach and learn Indian classical music
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vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

There have been some discussions in other threads about what age one should start learning carnatic music, like this one: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 86#p201786 . I am not copying individual posts from there since it is hard to peel them off out of the context of that thread.

Let us talk about the topic here. The corollary of this is 'how late is too late'. This can get controversial. It is an emotional topic since a lot of people who did not get a chance to learn music at a young age for various reasons believe ( or would like to believe ) that they can acquire reasonable competence and proficiency in carnatic music. Let us discuss this without too much flame.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

I don't know if it ever becomes impossible, so long as we still have our senses. Hearing, which is fairly useful in the pursuit of music, starts to diminish too early in life for some of us. (But of course, there are even profoundly deaf musicians, such as Evelyn Glenny, and many blind ones).

I tried learning mridangam, starting at age 40. Frankly, it was lack of discipline which stood in my way more than age (and I lacked it at 14 too, I'm afraid).

I don't think there is any doubt, though, that the learning is harder as we get older, as is the simple business of moving our fingers quickly and accurately on string or drum.

We should consider how we define "learning music." There may, indeed, be a time when it becomes too late to aim for the professional stage, but for one's own pleasure and interest, it is never too late, and the fact that we may not "ascend the stage" is no reason for not learning.

kkumar29
Posts: 46
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 20:26

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by kkumar29 »

I normally do not post in forums. However this topic is very dear to me.

Some people seem to entertain the idea and subscribe to it very strongly that once you get old, you can not learn CM. In my case my interest developed fairly late while I was in my teens. I went out looking for teachers who would tell me that it is too late for me to learn CM. This continued for many years till I met the versatile artist T V Gopalakrishnan. While chatting with him I expressed my desire to learn music and was lamenting the fact that it was too late for me since I was too old. He asked me a simple question. He said could I talk and I said yes. Then he said you can learn music.

Encouraged by his statement I went out and started looking for teachers who would teach an elderly 50 year old male. There were very few teachers who were willing to teach an old man (their words). I found one, who was 15 years younger than me but was willing to teach. I started learning at 50. What I found was that if I had found my teacher in my teens, I could have easily become a performer. Even at this age she made me get on stage and sing. I got good feedback and some people thought I had been learning since my childhood. She even got me to the stage of singing kalpana swarams. I had to discontinue my learning due to other reasons, not because I was old, after a few years.

So when people start making statements like you can't learn after a certain stage, I only feel they don't know what they are talking about. Elders in my family have always told me that age is no restriction to learning. Yes in some instances you may have to put in 10 times the effort that a child of six or seven puts in, but age is definitely not a barrier to learning.

Music teachers should encourage learning rather than discourage people. Not everyone wants to perform, some want to learn for the sheer joy of learning.

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by mohan »

kkumar29 thanks for sharing your musical journey.
I agree that there is no age limit for learning music. I started learning music only when I was in my late teens, so can't claim to have learnt music from 'a tender age!'

I have also had students who have commenced learning keyboard from me in their 40s and 50s. I read about a senior citizen who performed his mrudangam arangetram at the age of 60+. I think he was a disciple of Sri Umayalpuram Sivaraman.

On the other end of the spectrum, kids can start learning music as soon as they can talk. They may not be up for formal lessons at that age but interest and knowledge in music can be cultivated from a very early stage. Formal lessons in vocal music can probably start when the child is 6 years.
Last edited by mohan on 10 Jul 2011, 17:01, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

kkumar29 wrote:Music teachers should encourage learning rather than discourage people. Not everyone wants to perform, some want to learn for the sheer joy of learning.
Well said!
.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

kkumar29 wrote:Music teachers should encourage learning rather than discourage people. Not everyone wants to perform, some want to learn for the sheer joy of learning.
And another "well said" from me.

That I ever appeared on stage, at any level, was just astonishing to me. It had not been my aim, which was simply to have a little more understanding of that which I loved watching.

It is good to know that TVG encouraged you in the way that he did.

sampoorna
Posts: 49
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 15:28

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by sampoorna »

The original question is "How late is too late to learn music?" To answer this question, we can surely agree that for the average child the younger the better. They will be able to learn anything with much less effort only if they are provided with the right environment. The exception is when the child may be a prodigy or a born natural - then they pick it up from the air. Another exception is one who has absolutely no aptitude - even when provided the right environment they will not learn.

As we grow older it becomes more difficult to learn, mostly because of other preoccupations and preconditions. Irrespective of this one can make progress and learn if they have the will to do so. The success depends on how we define success, e.g., become a performing artist, perform for friends and family, perform for one's own pleasure, become a teacher, become very popular, become rich through what has been learned, look for power through what has been learned, etc. Again the exception here is a prodigy who may have missed the boat when s/he was young. Such a person may just shine even at an old age.

So we cannot ever give a categorical answer to this question. It just depends on the context and personal background. Any claims either way are true in certain contexts.

When I say (not that I am), "It is too late for you to learn music", we should understand it as follows. For the average person, it is much easier to learn music when they are young and are provided with the right environment. If not, it becomes more difficult and I am not able to put in the effort to work with you to bring you up to the success level I think is appropriate. Of course the assumption is that I am categorizing you as an average student (which is most probably true given the bell curve distribution). Just an example.

Narayana,

Sampoorna
www.lightalamp.wordpress.com

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

As we grow older it becomes more difficult to learn...
...but it becomes easier to understand.

This is my mridangam guru's observation.

srikant1987
Posts: 2246
Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by srikant1987 »

Nick, your mridangam guru is truly great. :D

I would like to also add that as we become older, we get a better grip of our own taste in music, and will gravitate towards music and musicians whom we truly like.

In a recent concert review speech, mridangam vidwan Sri BK Chandramouli remarked that our first guru is so very important, when we are asked who our guru is, we should name them first, and so on. While this is true, it is our recent (current) gurus who reflect our current values in music and our musical taste.

musicloverrr
Posts: 16
Joined: 13 May 2010, 02:50

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by musicloverrr »

kkumar29, inspiring and touching post.
Nick H wrote: ...but it becomes easier to understand.
Yes, i second that.

I don't think age is a bar for learning music. I do not mean to generalize but lot of kids learn carnatic music not out of their own interest but because of parental compulsion, they don't realize the value of it at that age most of them drop out after some time. Also i think as you grow old you develop/learn with true interest. The only disadvantage is adults are super sensitive and can get discouraged easily. But I was sensitive even as a kid :grin:

Irrespective of the age i feel learning should be fun and you should enjoy it. But for adults it is like work or at least you are slowly made to feel that way. Some teachers just terrorize you by making you learn things knowing well that it will not come to the student at that stage. I believe learning is a step by step process. Just because you are an adult doesn't make things any different. It is my personal experience in vocal.

If you have true interest and ready to work hard and able to find a good and understanding teacher i believe you can learn music at any age.

vainika
Posts: 433
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:32

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by vainika »

I have been learning music for 30 years, of which about 20 was directly from my gurus and the rest from recordings of their music.

The obvious decline over time is in my ability to retain what I've learned. I vividly recall the kritis I studied as a 14-year old, but have to go back to my notes to jog my memory when in comes to kritis I learned in my 30s.

On the other hand, I feel my ability to appreciate complexities and nuances of music has gone up over time. Ironically, this sometimes slows down learning ability - as one is tempted to dwell on each line/segment instead of just mugging it up and moving along.

mahesh3
Posts: 584
Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 21:32

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by mahesh3 »

vainika, nice points. philosophically, i agree that learning should be encouraged at all ages, if the interest is there.

My gripe is with stage performance...mediocre, crappy and even worse performances have become common today on the carnatic stage under the guise of "opportunity". Even a random search for any krithi on youtube throws up umpteen renditions by shady performers who want praise, but lack the intellectual honesty to realise they r ruining this great artform. In carnatic music festivals/competition... by most music organizations...it is shocking...the level of mediocrity that is accepted on stage. The problem with this is that the capabilities of the truly deserving ones get sidelined....prizes mostly are meaningless in today's cavalier society.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Hi, all. What Mahesh3 wrote is the absolute truth. But, truth is always bitter and, nowadays, many do not like truthfulness but hypocrisy. That is why even after the lapse of a month nobody responded to his post as most of them are either music-teachers who never want to respond to such harmful discussions or music-aspirants who do not have sufficient knowledge to discuss. Of course, very few people are aware that, in general, controversial views only bring out the truth and the logic behind and I am writing this for them only.
As per the saying learning is a process from cradle to grave and, to tell the fact, not only for music but to learn any thing on earth, there is no bar of age in which way any person irrespective of his/her age is eligible to marry another person, if at all the other party agrees.

Roger Sperry who won a Nobel Prize in 1981 (search Google for details), basing upon some experiments, found that one among the four parts of the kid’s brain positively responds to music, dance, poetry, acting, singing, painting, art & craft and the kids could very well be exposed to any of them even before the age of 6 yrs. As Music is a part of Saamaveda which has to be learnt from the early years of age and at the early hours of the day the music should also be learnt in the same manner. More over, among all, this is the only invisible art on the globe requiring very high level of concentration and regular practice which are abundantly available only in the kids. Unfortunately, no kids before the age of 10 years are allowed into any of the Govt. Music-institutions or the Music Departments of the Universities on the globe. Thus, much of the true talent of many of these kids is being wasted.

Our traditional Karnataka music is a system of its own kind on the globe having some special features. According to the ancient Shloka, in music, while Shruti is of the first preference of mother and the rhythm is of the second preference of father, naturally, mother is more important to the kid to survive. But, in our music, Shruti is given the second place and most of our musicians sing in off-shruti but eagerly expect to receive great honours, awards and titles like Sangita Kalanidhi, Padmashri, Padma Bhooshan, Padma Vibhooshan etc., etc. In the same manner, while the pure note has the true musical effect on the human mind and great value in any music, in our music, the pure note has the least value and, mostly, all our musicians prefer to shake all the notes including even the natural notes, Shadja and Panchama. In the same manner, it is not that easy to manage with a minimum number of items, say four or five items only, in a 3-hour concert and it is very easy to manage with 20 or 30 items in such a concert with a little or no Ragalapana and Svarakalpana. But, in our music, the person who sings 20 to 30 items or even more in a 3-hour concert will only be honoured as a legend and praised. In the same manner, even in respect of teaching, all the music-teachers prefer to teach as many number of items as they can, like one-dozen Saralee-svaras, one-dozen Janta-svaras, half-a-dozen Daatu-svaras, half-a-dozen Hetchu-sthayi-svaras, half-a-dozen Taggu-sthayi-svaras, 35 Alankaras, half-a-dozen Svara-pallavis, half-a-dozen Svara-jatis, half-a-gross (72) Varnas and more than one full gross (144) Kritis excluding other compositions, according to the established traditional quantitative method of teaching, which increases only the abilities of memorising the items but not the true ability to manage with different Gatis or Nadais. In which way we feed our kids with hygienic and energetic food to keep them always healthy, in the same manner, even in respect of our music, we must strive hard to give unambiguous knowledge having relevancy with the practical music to our kids. But, most unfortunately, since many centuries, our stalwarts have very conveniently ignored to standardise some very important aspects like Shrutis, Gamakas, Talas, Pedagogy etc. To make our music more inspirational and soothing and to attract more aspirants it should be made more ‘Sangeeta(Naada)-pradhaana’ than ‘Sangati-pradhaana’.

In general, no candidate is allowed to study the professional courses like medicine and engineering beyond 20 years of age and even the individuals after settling themselves in a job or business do not prefer to later study medicine or engineering. But, it is entirely different with music and it is very difficult to find even a single person on the globe who is not interested in learning music. In any University while all the students are younger ones, surprisingly, only in the Department of Music, we can certainly find more elderly students than youngsters. In many of these music-institutions while the elders are very regular but learn very slowly and leisurely in a snails pace the youngsters are not that regular but certainly very fast than the elders. In many of these music-institutions many of these elders are even becoming jealous of the quick progress of the youngsters and are used even to complain against the respective teacher that he/she is teaching the youngsters properly but not the elders. To avoid such complaints even the teachers are maintaining only the low standards in teaching which suit the elders and many are not aware that only the youngsters are put in loss by these low standards of teaching. Every individual, irrespective of his/her age or occupation, desires to learn music (but not dance fortunately) and even the respective music-teachers will never discourage the inefficient aspirants as their main aim is to earn more money as much as they can. Mostly the elders are well settled in their life and try to acquire some thing else in their leisure time for their enjoyment. Most of them want to learn music and some of them even try to learn instruments but will be compelled to become stranded at one point or the other due to their inabilities. At the first instance, they tell that they want to learn it only for their enjoyment but later they gradually resort to perform and even to teach others thinking themselves extremely well both in performing and teaching. Even some of the already employed elders, at a later period, even try to acquire a Degree in Music and switch over to the teaching job having higher salary. While the performer only performs what he can the teacher needs abundant and all-round ability in teaching which influences an entire generation itself. But, in our country, where most of the people are eager about their rights and demands only but not the duties and responsibilities and also in the absence of any authorized training as a music-teacher many of the elders are resorting to teaching music increasing the impotents in music in our country. More over, nowadays, nobody tries to criticize the elders openly of their inefficiencies and become controversial like me. The elders can even donate or pay heavy amounts to the organizers or the media or the like even to pressurize them to arrange and publicize their concerts irrespective of their standards. Getting the pecuniary advantages even the teachers will also co-operate with the elders in any manner they desire.

But, it is entirely different with kids. Having no other avocation, they can concentrate far more efficiently than adults and learn music very fast and efficiently, of course, basing upon the efficiency of the teacher. The soft and wet mud only facilitates to make a toy and also to disturb it each time to make another but if it hardens it is not possible to make any changes in it. In the same manner the kids could very easily be shaped in whatever manner the efficient teacher desires. Even though they are physically and mentally able to do the needful they are solely dependents on their parents or teachers for anything. They are ready to learn or study or practice efficiently what is taught. Particularly, in respect of music, they do not know what they do not know and how to question. Like the elders they do not have the tactics of asking or even pressurizing anybody to arrange their concert even if they are up to the mark.

As kids are used to simply follow the instructions of the elders in doing things and do the needful but cannot have the understanding capacity, they should only be entrusted things to practice heavily and regularly but without defining the things. And, in general, starting from their 8th year, as the kids gradually get the ability to understand, the things must gradually be defined from their 8th year only. More over, kids above the age of 12 years are not at all allowed to learn the complex mathematical system, Abacus and in the same manner it is preferable to start learning music also between 6th & 8th year of age by which the aspirant could conclude most of the learning of the relevant technicalities of music successfully even before his/her 12th year of age. However, even before the 6th year of age, trials should be made to find out whether the kids are responding to music and if the results are favorable they could be put under the care of an efficient, honest and reliable teacher only but not a mere singer. If the training of kids in the novel qualitative method in teaching music is taken on campaign by all the Sabhas of Chennai it produces an entirely different set of kids who will become the torch bearers of our society.

As usual an old person of even above 40 or 50 years of age desires to learn music at that age, finds a teacher who makes him/her sing even a mini-concert with little Ragalapana and Svarakalpana. But, no heavy rhythmical intricacies are taught or learnt. By this, on one side, the teacher becomes satisfied that he/she did the best by making the aspirant sing a mini-concert even at his/her old age and, on the other, the aspirant also becomes satisfied that he/she, even at his/her old age, was able to sing a mini-concert irrespective of the standards of the concert. In fact, there has been a great facility in our music having no yard-stick either to assess the level of knowledge of the teacher or the quality of the lesson being imparted by the teacher or the quality attained by the aspirant in course of learning and this facility is availed to the full extent by each and every music-teacher on the globe.

Having recently listened to the successful-mini-music-concert of one of my disciple-kids, a gent at his age of 40 approached me to teach her daughter of 11 years age, who has been learning Gitas only since last three years, and I agreed. But, in the meantime, he himself became enthusiastic of giving a music-concert like my disciple-kid by learning music from me even before his daughter. But, when I have refused to teach him, he stopped even his daughter to learn from me. Poor fellow, he doesn’t realize that his daughter herself is the looser.

Having listened to one of my Lec-dems, recently, another gent, who appeared and passed the entrance test for B.A.Music Examination (Madras University) of Distance Education, approached me online and requested me to teach him Svarakalpana on Skype. But, when I have asked him to render the Ata-tala-alankara both in Chaturashra and Trisra-gatis consecutively he could not even sing it in Chaturashra-gati @ 4-units per beat properly and accordingly I refused to teach him. I could not understand how he passed even the preliminary qualifying test. Even some of the candidates who had recently passed M.A Music are unable to render even little mathematical Svarakalpana efficiently. This is the very sad state of affairs of even the Universities, Colleges and Institutions brought out by some reputed organizations imparting music to the aspirants. Adding fuel to the fire, recently many universities have started this distance education only to earn money but not to maintain the standards by which the aspirants receive certificates and become the Degree-holders in music without the required expertise but resort to teaching successfully increasing the number of impotents and God alone knows the fate of such aspirants. amsharma

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Hi, all. What Mahesh3 wrote is the absolute truth. But, truth is always bitter and, nowadays, many do not like truthfulness but hypocrisy. That is why even after the lapse of a month nobody responded to his post as most of them are either music-teachers who never want to respond to such harmful discussions or music-aspirants who do not have sufficient knowledge to discuss. Of course, very few people are aware that, in general, controversial views only bring out the truth and the logic behind and I am writing this for them only.
As per the saying learning is a process from cradle to grave and, to tell the fact, not only for music but to learn any thing on earth, there is no bar of age in which way any person irrespective of his/her age is eligible to marry another person, if at all the other party agrees.

Roger Sperry who won a Nobel Prize in 1981 (search Google for details), basing upon some experiments, found that one among the four parts of the kid’s brain positively responds to music, dance, poetry, acting, singing, painting, art & craft and the kids could very well be exposed to any of them even before the age of 6 yrs. As Music is a part of Saamaveda which has to be learnt from the early years of age and at the early hours of the day the music should also be learnt in the same manner. More over, among all, this is the only invisible art on the globe requiring very high level of concentration and regular practice which are abundantly available only in the kids. Unfortunately, no kids before the age of 10 years are allowed into any of the Govt. Music-institutions or the Music Departments of the Universities on the globe. Thus, much of the true talent of many of these kids is being wasted.

Our traditional Karnataka music is a system of its own kind on the globe having some special features. According to the ancient Shloka, in music, while Shruti is of the first preference of mother and the rhythm is of the second preference of father, naturally, mother is more important to the kid to survive. But, in our music, Shruti is given the second place and most of our musicians sing in off-shruti but eagerly expect to receive great honours, awards and titles like Sangita Kalanidhi, Padmashri, Padma Bhooshan, Padma Vibhooshan etc., etc. In the same manner, while the pure note has the true musical effect on the human mind and great value in any music, in our music, the pure note has the least value and, mostly, all our musicians prefer to shake all the notes including even the natural notes, Shadja and Panchama. In the same manner, it is not that easy to manage with a minimum number of items, say four or five items only, in a 3-hour concert and it is very easy to manage with 20 or 30 items in such a concert with a little or no Ragalapana and Svarakalpana. But, in our music, the person who sings 20 to 30 items or even more in a 3-hour concert will only be honoured as a legend and praised. In the same manner, even in respect of teaching, all the music-teachers prefer to teach as many number of items as they can, like one-dozen Saralee-svaras, one-dozen Janta-svaras, half-a-dozen Daatu-svaras, half-a-dozen Hetchu-sthayi-svaras, half-a-dozen Taggu-sthayi-svaras, 35 Alankaras, half-a-dozen Svara-pallavis, half-a-dozen Svara-jatis, half-a-gross (72) Varnas and more than one full gross (144) Kritis excluding other compositions, according to the established traditional quantitative method of teaching, which increases only the abilities of memorising the items but not the true ability to manage with different Gatis or Nadais. In which way we feed our kids with hygienic and energetic food to keep them always healthy, in the same manner, even in respect of our music, we must strive hard to give unambiguous knowledge having relevancy with the practical music to our kids. But, most unfortunately, since many centuries, our stalwarts have very conveniently ignored to standardise some very important aspects like Shrutis, Gamakas, Talas, Pedagogy etc. To make our music more inspirational and soothing and to attract more aspirants it should be made more ‘Sangeeta(Naada)-pradhaana’ than ‘Sangati-pradhaana’.

In general, no candidate is allowed to study the professional courses like medicine and engineering beyond 20 years of age and even the individuals after settling themselves in a job or business do not prefer to later study medicine or engineering. But, it is entirely different with music and it is very difficult to find even a single person on the globe who is not interested in learning music. In any University while all the students are younger ones, surprisingly, only in the Department of Music, we can certainly find more elderly students than youngsters. In many of these music-institutions while the elders are very regular but learn very slowly and leisurely in a snails pace the youngsters are not that regular but certainly very fast than the elders. In many of these music-institutions many of these elders are even becoming jealous of the quick progress of the youngsters and are used even to complain against the respective teacher that he/she is teaching the youngsters properly but not the elders. To avoid such complaints even the teachers are maintaining only the low standards in teaching which suit the elders and many are not aware that only the youngsters are put in loss by these low standards of teaching. Every individual, irrespective of his/her age or occupation, desires to learn music (but not dance fortunately) and even the respective music-teachers will never discourage the inefficient aspirants as their main aim is to earn more money as much as they can. Mostly the elders are well settled in their life and try to acquire some thing else in their leisure time for their enjoyment. Most of them want to learn music and some of them even try to learn instruments but will be compelled to become stranded at one point or the other due to their inabilities. At the first instance, they tell that they want to learn it only for their enjoyment but later they gradually resort to perform and even to teach others thinking themselves extremely well both in performing and teaching. Even some of the already employed elders, at a later period, even try to acquire a Degree in Music and switch over to the teaching job having higher salary. While the performer only performs what he can the teacher needs abundant and all-round ability in teaching which influences an entire generation itself. But, in our country, where most of the people are eager about their rights and demands only but not the duties and responsibilities and also in the absence of any authorized training as a music-teacher many of the elders are resorting to teaching music increasing the impotents in music in our country. More over, nowadays, nobody tries to criticize the elders openly of their inefficiencies and become controversial like me. The elders can even donate or pay heavy amounts to the organizers or the media or the like even to pressurize them to arrange and publicize their concerts irrespective of their standards. Getting the pecuniary advantages even the teachers will also co-operate with the elders in any manner they desire.

But, it is entirely different with kids. Having no other avocation, they can concentrate far more efficiently than adults and learn music very fast and efficiently, of course, basing upon the efficiency of the teacher. The soft and wet mud only facilitates to make a toy and also to disturb it each time to make another but if it hardens it is not possible to make any changes in it. In the same manner the kids could very easily be shaped in whatever manner the efficient teacher desires. Even though they are physically and mentally able to do the needful they are solely dependents on their parents or teachers for anything. They are ready to learn or study or practice efficiently what is taught. Particularly, in respect of music, they do not know what they do not know and how to question. Like the elders they do not have the tactics of asking or even pressurizing anybody to arrange their concert even if they are up to the mark.

As kids are used to simply follow the instructions of the elders in doing things and do the needful but cannot have the understanding capacity, they should only be entrusted things to practice heavily and regularly but without defining the things. And, in general, starting from their 8th year, as the kids gradually get the ability to understand, the things must gradually be defined from their 8th year only. More over, kids above the age of 12 years are not at all allowed to learn the complex mathematical system, Abacus and in the same manner it is preferable to start learning music also between 6th & 8th year of age by which the aspirant could conclude most of the learning of the relevant technicalities of music successfully even before his/her 12th year of age. However, even before the 6th year of age, trials should be made to find out whether the kids are responding to music and if the results are favorable they could be put under the care of an efficient, honest and reliable teacher only but not a mere singer. If the training of kids in the novel qualitative method in teaching music is taken on campaign by all the Sabhas of Chennai it produces an entirely different set of kids who will become the torch bearers of our society.

As usual an old person of even above 40 or 50 years of age desires to learn music at that age, finds a teacher who makes him/her sing even a mini-concert with little Ragalapana and Svarakalpana. But, no heavy rhythmical intricacies are taught or learnt. By this, on one side, the teacher becomes satisfied that he/she did the best by making the aspirant sing a mini-concert even at his/her old age and, on the other, the aspirant also becomes satisfied that he/she, even at his/her old age, was able to sing a mini-concert irrespective of the standards of the concert. In fact, there has been a great facility in our music having no yard-stick either to assess the level of knowledge of the teacher or the quality of the lesson being imparted by the teacher or the quality attained by the aspirant in course of learning and this facility is availed to the full extent by each and every music-teacher on the globe.

Having recently listened to the successful-mini-music-concert of one of my disciple-kids, a gent at his age of 40 approached me to teach her daughter of 11 years age, who has been learning Gitas only since last three years, and I agreed. But, in the meantime, he himself became enthusiastic of giving a music-concert like my disciple-kid by learning music from me even before his daughter. But, when I have refused to teach him, he stopped even his daughter to learn from me. Poor fellow, he doesn’t realize that his daughter herself is the looser.

Having listened to one of my Lec-dems, recently, another gent, who appeared and passed the entrance test for B.A.Music Examination (Madras University) of Distance Education, approached me online and requested me to teach him Svarakalpana on Skype. But, when I have asked him to render the Ata-tala-alankara both in Chaturashra and Trisra-gatis consecutively he could not even sing it in Chaturashra-gati @ 4-units per beat properly and accordingly I refused to teach him. I could not understand how he passed even the preliminary qualifying test. Even some of the candidates who had recently passed M.A Music are unable to render even little mathematical Svarakalpana efficiently. This is the very sad state of affairs of even the Universities, Colleges and Institutions brought out by some reputed organizations imparting music to the aspirants. Adding fuel to the fire, recently many universities have started this distance education only to earn money but not to maintain the standards by which the aspirants receive certificates and become the Degree-holders in music without the required expertise but resort to teaching successfully increasing the number of impotents and God alone knows the fate of such aspirants. amsharma

VK RAMAN
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by VK RAMAN »

msakella - Thank you. All your points are well taken and are very valuable observations, but why the first para in a negative way.

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, VK RAMAN, While thanking you for your kind appreciation I shall be even more thankful for your nice and apt question. I sincerely feel that the answer to your question is more valuable than even my points furnished in my post.

I have already been stamped as a ‘controversial-person’ and, of course, I very happily relish it well. Having already spent 73 years of my past life (of course, here I remember our unparalleled ‘Dudukugala Nanne Dorakoduku Brochuraa-Gaula-Adi of Saint Thyagaraja) starting as a most unreliable, parasitic and highly selfish professional musician, later gradually as an unreliable teacher and successful cheater, later with some realization and introspection as 25% reliable teacher, later as 50% reliable teacher and now as 75% reliable teacher I had umpteen experiences in many walks of my life and, at this fag end of my life, I feel it as my responsibility being a part of our society to properly enlighten our people in properly doing the things of music. The quality of any system must be adjudged by the end-result only and, thus, only by the grace of the Almighty, having found a very highly reliable system of teaching music to the kids and accordingly having also produced some gem-kids of music I have uploaded some of their videos to ‘youtube’ to inspire the aspirants and the music-teachers. Many a time I have also requested the entire teaching community through many of my posts in this forum to sincerely follow this system for the benefit of the aspirants and the music field and also to upload their relevant videos to inspire others. All this I did only for the benefit of our kids but not for any personal aggrandizement at all. But, unfortunately, till now, none had uploaded even a single video. That is their kind of response. Okay. But, some of our members of this forum had even gone to the extent of writing all kinds of rubbish in their posts taking advantage of their anonymity. Funnily none of them is ready to stand for any of my challenges or to make a challenge or to prove the inefficiencies of this novel system or even to come out and criticize. By all this, only to caution the common man of this anonymous persons I am compelled to bring this unhealthy negativity into my post for which I beg all your pardon. amsharma

musicloverrr
Posts: 16
Joined: 13 May 2010, 02:50

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by musicloverrr »

I came across an intresting article about Adult beginners who want to learn violin and thought I would share here.

Are You an Adult Beginner Violin Student?
Have you heard those schlubs who say adults can’t learn to play the violin? You know that weird look you get when you tell friends and family that you’re taking lessons?

They’re all wrong. Adults can learn to play just as well as kids. One of the best ways you can take responsibility for your learning as an adult is to work on the relationship between you and your teacher.

Like any relationship, this one takes time and effort.

If you feel like your teacher is “writing you off” or treats you as if you are an unworthy use of their time because you will never be like X and you’re not a child prodigy, there are a few things you need to consider.

Are you imagining this, due to some possible insecurities you might be feeling?
Is this teacher good enough that you want to salvage the relationship with him/her? If this is a fantastic teacher, then you should probably spend some lesson time just to chat about what you want as a student, how you feel about their attitude toward you, and just work it out as openly and honestly as you can.

Doing this will either make or break your relationship. If your teacher has a particularly large or fragile ego, they may react badly, but this isn’t your problem. (Try telling them lots of things you LOVE about their teaching style first….a spoonful of sugar).

If it’s not your imagination, and you’re tried talking to the teacher, regardless of how great the teacher may be, FIRE THEM. You are paying them for their time, the same as anyone else, and you deserve to be given their full effort in your lessons.

You deserve to be given full attention and respect. But make sure you are giving yourself the same respect that you are asking of your teacher. Giving some time and effort to the relationship is a great way to do that.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

Words that could give hope and confidence to many. Well said. Do, please, give the author and source, including link if it was found online.


msakella
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

“Adults can learn to play just as well as kids” - Very nice and very encouraging news item to the adults and mostly the Violin-teachers. These words certainly give hope and confidence to many adults to start leaning Violin. OK. But, if any such able Violin-teacher could answer my questions, I shall be extremely happy to know how much time it takes to such an adult to play all the different oscillations of all the different Ragas, to accompany ably and successfully the main artist reproducing all the ‘Sangathis’ of all the Ragas sung/played by him/her, to reproduce efficiently the Pallavi sung/played by him/her in all the speeds and Gatis and to reproduce efficiently all the mathematical calculations sung/played by him/her. amsharma

Nick H
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

I think this was written in the context of Western music --- although maybe Western music has many complexities, just different ones.

Quite a few years ago, when I knew even less than now, I asked a violinist if they ever found themselves having to accompany ragas they simply didn't know. The answer was, "Yes! We have to learn it there and then," so, perhaps, even among professional musicians it is not unknown for someone not to know "all the different oscillations of all the different Ragas..." As to the effectiveness of accompaniment, it varies anyway.

The task of the violinist as accompanist is one that I am absolutely in awe of. It amazes me that they can do a fraction of the things you mention, let alone all of them as required on the professional stage and that, having mastered such a vast amount of technicality, they can, on top of all that, be creative as well. It is simply stunning. And daunting to anyone setting out to become a professional.

Probably, though, few adults attend classes with the aim of becoming professional musicians. You may be right in querying that adults can play as well as those who learn as children and, as a teaching musician you certainly have the overview and experience --- but let us encourage those who want to learn, even though we may tell them, as they say in English, "don't give up the day job!"

musicloverrr
Posts: 16
Joined: 13 May 2010, 02:50

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by musicloverrr »

Yes I found this article in a western music website. But Teacher and student relationship is something very rarely discussed. I found this article insightful and wished to share it.

On a side note as someone said not everyone learns music with the aim to perform. Even if you equip yourself to become a performer and have great talent, to have a successful career in music you should have lot of luck. Talent alone is not going to take you places. The scope for people who learn this art is very limited. It is the harsh truth. That's the reason why many don't prefer to learn music full time. So why discourage people who come forward with a true interest to learn music or an instrument? Yes the probability that you will become an accomplished musician is less, but at least you can be a knowledgeable listener. Even front ranking accompanists who obviously learned from their childhood fail to reproduce all that is rendered by the vocalists, can quote several such instances. This is not to belittle the accompanists. Music is an ocean and each one cannot be expected to know everything. Every front ranking musician says that one life is not enough to master everything in this art. No one wants to claim he is a master.

Young or old, both the guru and shishya should be equally committed and dedicated for teaching and learning. That makes all the difference.

msakella
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Nick H: I to agree that there are many complexities in both the systems of music. But, unfortunately, in respect of Karnataka-violin, the accompaniment makes it more different.

As to the aspect of different oscillations of different Ragas while it is far easier to sing the familiar oscillations of a known Raga of his/her choice on Vocal being the main artist it is a very difficult task to accompany successfully bringing out the same unknown oscillations of a new Raga by a Violinist. This could only be understood by a critical and professional accompanying Violinist but not by any other person.

As you wrote, as a critical-violin-teacher with umpteen failures at the first instance and later with many amazing results I have my overviews and experiences in this respect unlike many other Violin-teachers. However, bringing out the bare truth always looks like absolute discouragement only.

musicloverr: As you wrote ‘though not everyone learns music with the aim to perform’ basically music is the performing art and most of the learners wish to perform either for themselves or for others also. If it is the case of the former he/she faces his/her own music and nobody bothers about it. But, if it is of the later only the problem arises. Leave alone the luck to become a professional artist but how many are ready enough to go through the hardship of vigorous and regular practice. Even the scope for the people to learn this art is very limited hundreds of people are resorting to learn this art as hobby. However, as you wrote, our teachers are already available everywhere to, somehow, encourage them and not to let them give up their hope.

Thus, as you wrote, the young or old, both the guru and shishya are equally committed and dedicated for teaching and learning in their own way finding the difference only in the end of the show. amsharma

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Nick H »

msakella wrote:As to the aspect of different oscillations of different Ragas while it is far easier to sing the familiar oscillations of a known Raga of his/her choice on Vocal being the main artist it is a very difficult task to accompany successfully bringing out the same unknown oscillations of a new Raga by a Violinist. This could only be understood by a critical and professional accompanying Violinist but not by any other person.
Thank you for the insight.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thus, as you wrote, the young or old, both the guru and shishya are equally committed and dedicated for teaching and learning in their own way finding the difference only in the end of the show. amsharma
:) good one akellaji.

That made me think. There is a whole spectrum of people with different levels of desires on many different tasks ( public speaking, music, learning to draw, teach etc. ). That is what makes us do anything, beyond the bare essentials. This is true even if we know ( or told ) a priori of the rates of failures ( or abysmal results ). That desire is the single most characteristic that drives billions of people. Without that desire life will be unbearably boring. That is what makes the world go around. In the end, we take comfort in the fact that the journey has been enjoyable and worthwhile no matter what the destination happens to be.

msakella
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, At this fag end of my life I have only a single view concentrating all my efforts on enlightening our kids in music-learning and I have been used to look anything and everything with this view only, if you don’t mistake me, dear.

As per my long experience in the teaching field I feel that there is a lot to discuss face to face in this respect than writing umpteen lengthy posts in this thread. But, as such discussion is not possible at this juncture I shall try to write even up to some extent.

What you wrote is the absolute truth. On earth every being has its/his/her own desire and always strives hard to get it fulfilled in one way or the other. As this is natural there is also nothing wrong in doing so if it is not bad. But, in the end, you also wrote that we take comfort in the fact that the journey has been enjoyable and worthwhile no matter what the destination happens to be. If that is so everybody feels happy of his journey as you wrote. But, in respect of many cases, particularly, in learning music, even after learning many years, many aspirants are feeling very bad about their own inabilities in singing music efficiently. But, as it is our great tradition never to blame our teacher (or the husband) at any cost, they are blaming themselves only for their inabilities. Up to some extent it is also true in some of the cases to blame themselves for their inabilities in the grasping of the lessons or to understand them or even to practice them vigorously and regularly. But, if I write that the real culprit in this respect is only the teacher himself/herself many are ready to mistake me but not of the teacher. I myself, having been one among those culprits for many years, very well know this fact and that is why I have always been used to write like this. But the difference is, only by the grace of the Almighty, I am the only person to realise my blunders and, today, I feel very proud to become an efficient, honest and reliable teacher only basing upon the amazing results I have been getting and none of other music-teachers have changed.

The success of any novel system must be adjudged only basing upon the end result and, thus, I have already uploaded many videos of our kids to Youtube bringing out their efficiency in handling very high level rhythmical intricacies as you are also aware. I have even appealed to the teaching community many a time to view these videos, follow these modern methods in teaching music and also to upload the respective videos of their students to the Youtube. But, the fact that no such video has ever been uploaded by any other music-teacher obviously proves that none of the music-teachers is bothered neither to quicken the process of teaching nor to make the aspirants more efficient in the subject even in this modern age having many modern gadgets for our benefit.

Even when I have appealed to many of the musicians to standardise the system of writing notation by properly symbolising it in the high interests of our aspirants and the art nobody responded properly. Even when I have myself initiated the discussion on our ‘Gamakas’ through, mainly, two threads “Gamakas made easy in writing notation & Analysing and Systhesising Gamakas’ in the main thread ‘Technical discussions’ the response was very very poor and this obviously reveals that our people are more enthusiastic in knowing things but not in doing things even for our own kids and our culture. Thus, gradually, I am loosing my interest in participating even in the discussions of our forum and don’t mistake me if, in near future, I absolutely stop to participate (of course, without depending upon any body and without craving for the money or the fame or the honours or the titles, I shall always continue to serve our community in one manner or the other until my last breath). amsharma

mohan
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by mohan »

Here's a short track of my 3 year old son guessing ragas - something he does as a play. Shows how quick a child's brain can work!
http://soundcloud.com/mohanayyar/akshay-guessing-ragas

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, mohan, Your son is able to recognise not only the Ragas but also their Arohana & Avarohana. Very nice. Your son is a prodigy. If he is initiated properly by an efficient, honest and reliable teacher he certainly becomes able to sing a concert of 1 hr. within 3 or 4 years. Wishing him all the best, amsharma

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by rajeshnat »

mohan wrote:Here's a short track of my 3 year old son guessing ragas - something he does as a play. Shows how quick a child's brain can work!
http://soundcloud.com/mohanayyar/akshay-guessing-ragas
Mohan
WOW WOW Akshay :clap: :clap: :clap: , knowing even nagaswarvali and bahudari. This is just too good . few years back there was a snippet of his sister singing reetigowlai that you posted , now akshay is right there. At this rate Akshay can even venture into dwi madhyama scales of s kalyanaraman.

What is the raga that he is guessing between hindolam and saveri?

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Akshay, fantastic. You were teaching me ragas! Amazing.

>At this rate Akshay can even venture into......

writing reviews at rasikas.org :)

mohan
Posts: 2806
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by mohan »

Thanks all, especially Akella-ji for your blessings.

rajeshnat - the 2nd raga was hamsadhwani. Sometimes he was too quick for me to sing it properly even!

The clip is just a short sample - he knows several other ragas too. Rithika at the same age could do the same. I think kids pick up this talent like they pick up words and a language. When we get older the mind/brain is a bit slower I think.

msakella
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

No, I can’t agree with you. Not a bit slower, very horribly slower.

Tamizhisai
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Joined: 06 Jul 2011, 18:31

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Tamizhisai »

Yeah, very true! Tiger Varadachariar, Semmangudi, M.D. Ramanathan, Musiri Subramania Iyer, Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavathar, Prof Sambamurthy et all erred by presiding over institutions that were teaching music to adult beginners. Did they not commit a grave mistake? Most of them are run by state/central govt, wasting tax payer’s money. Its high time Akellaji stops wasting his time in the virtual world. He should start a movement and lead a fast like Anna Hazare, demanding all govts to stop their grants and closure of government-run institutions, as it’s a total waste.

In the lines of Veda Patasalas, taking only kids, private organizations should start exclusive schools for classical music. Govt can encourage them by giving tax exemptions to such schools. A large amount will be saved after closure of Govt & aided music colleges, wasting time and resources on adult learners.

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by rshankar »

Mohan - Akshay is awesome (the mazhalai is very cute, and like many kids here in the US he rolls his 'ri' - sounds more like 'zhi'!) - blessings and best wishes for continued success! I am sure this is not the time to talk about nature versus nurture in such skills, but it is certain that he has divine skills, and you and Sangeetha have the duty (sacred duty even) to nuture this skill, and walk the razor's edge between encouraging & supporting him & getting him to maximize his potential versus being too pushy.

Tamizhisai - I don't think anyone (including Sri Akella) is saying that adult beginners can't learn music or can't learn it well (like you have done) - what is being said is that it is much easier to teach young kids. Adult-beginners may have to work much harder at learning music, while children just seem to absorb stuff effortlessly, like sponges.

nadhasudha
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by nadhasudha »

If performance is not the goal of learning music, age is not a bar to start anytime. Yes it is difficult to learn new things when you are older, however you enjoy the learning process more. You are able to reflect and appreciate every nuance and every detail and revel in the beauty of the music. I firmly believe that things come to you when you are ready for it and have the intense desire or longing for it.

Tamizhisai
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Joined: 06 Jul 2011, 18:31

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by Tamizhisai »

I fully endorse nadhasudha's views. Hope you got the sarcasm in my earlier post.

mahavishnu
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by mahavishnu »

Mohan: Very impressive :clap:
and cute too! I love the way he says Saveri like Strawberry. Rajesh, I think it was Hamsadwani that he called before that (and from just 3-4 notes in one pidi).

Sutthi podungo!

rajeshnat
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by rajeshnat »

Mohan,
At 02:22 between sankarabharanam and vasanta what does he try to say when he says "saya naya tone????" I am assuming you tried dwijAvanti there

In 03:36 does he say madhyamavati as maddumo or something before correcting as shreerAgam

After bahudari what does he say till 04:40 ?? I think you are giving 2 more ragas after bahudari

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

If a limb of our body is hurt we all possibly try to rectify it but not to remove it. In the same manner, to strengthen our country in every respect, we all must possibly try to rectify the defects of all these institutions run by Central or State Governments in the process of making them all serve the public efficiently, honestly and reliably. I don’t think that closure of these institutions will any way serve our purpose. Intelligents can go anywhere and survive as they like. But what about the inefficients of our land? Irrespective of the hurdles we come across, is it not our collective duty to bring out all the facts, enlighten our people and make them efficient to survive themselves wherever they go? My pen and tongue may be sharper and bitter but that is what I have been able to do even at this fag end of my life. I hope all my brothers and sisters also do this for the sake of our land.

As our brother-member, rshankar, wrote I reiterate that it is easier to kids to learn music very fast and it takes much longer time to adults to learn the same. I did never mean that the adult-beginners should be deprived of learning music. amsharma

mohan
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by mohan »

rajeshnat wrote: At 02:22 between sankarabharanam and vasanta what does he try to say when he says "saya naya tone????" I am assuming you tried dwijAvanti there
Rajesh - again please excuse my singing. He says 'sahana you told me' meaning I sang sahana. I think I tried dwijanvanti later which he got.
In 03:36 does he say madhyamavati as maddumo or something before correcting as shreerAgam
yup he says madyamavati first
After bahudari what does he say till 04:40 ?? I think you are giving 2 more ragas after bahudari
in the end there is the arohana/avarohana of kuntalavarali to which he sings a refrain of Dr Balamuralikrishna's tillana and then says kuntavAli. After that there is kadanakuthuhalam.

nadhasudha
Posts: 381
Joined: 22 May 2006, 06:40

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by nadhasudha »

Mohan - Just listened to Akshay's raga deciphering - Amazing :) - For some ragas he also manages to sing the first few lines of the composition - for Begada - he starts singing Vallabha Nayakasya. He appears to know the scales of ragas such as Shankarabharanam. The Mazhalai is cute to listen too :)

Wishing him many many happy years learning and singing music. God Bless him!

adhira
Posts: 3
Joined: 22 Jun 2012, 16:57

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by adhira »

There is neither an upper nor a lower limit on age to learn, and as far as I know there no particular age to start learning music because as you can see many of our singers started learning music in a very early age.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, adhira, As you wrote there is neither an upper nor a lower limit on age to learn music but, as you also wrote, it is preferable to start learning music at a very early age. amsharma

varsha
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by varsha »

Age to start Learning ?
Annapoorna Devi asked Chaurasia (who had come to learn from her in his thirties ) , as to how he could unlearn all that he had learnt - as a precondition . And he switched over to left handed playing to make sure nothing of his early training came into picture :?:

msakella
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

Post by msakella »

In respect of teaching music there is one very important difference to note. Since many centuries, in the traditional and quantitative method in teaching followed by all the teachers they, very conveniently escaping from the responsibility of inculcating the knowledge of Manodharma Sangita, are used to teach only a number of items starting from Saralee-svaras up to Krits etc., to the aspirants irrespective of their abilities in Laya or Shruti or grasping or understanding or reproducing etc. of the aspirants. Even in this modern age where facilities either to travel fast to other places or to quickly learn the lessons fast basing upon the modern gadgets like Electronic-tamburas or Metronomes or cassettes or CDs or mp3 players etc., etc., most unfortunately, the process of teaching or learning has never been made fast by these music-teachers as they always want to earn as much as they can very quietly from the innocent aspirants and their parents by elongating the process of it.

But, in the modern qualitative method in teaching, unlike in the past, the entire material of the items of the lessons is invariably supplied in the form of audio or video or printed or pdf files to the aspirant even in the beginni9ng itself and the process of teaching has possibly been made ‘time-bound and result-oriented’. Even the teaching is mainly based on the inherent talent of the aspirant and by increasing it by a number of aids always initiating the aspirant to do things on his own to remove the dependency of the aspirant and also to make him self-confident.

By all this, while only less than 20% of the aspirants are able to become professionals on their own accord but not basing upon the efficiency in teaching by learning in the quantitative and traditional method, more than 80% of the kids are able to attain higher standards within a very short time, unlike in the past, by learning in the novel and qualitative method.

Our Indian music, either southern or northern, is mostly based on Manodharma unlike any other system of the remaining world. It is an interesting case to know whether it is possible to mentally forget the music already learnt for many years by merely changing physically to the left hand training? amsharma

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