Similar Ragas

Rāga related discussions
Post Reply
kmk
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jun 2006, 17:27

Post by kmk »

We have Ragas which are almost identical for the listener.
For the Artist, they should be different and the nuances of each should be correctly brought out.
Shall we have a discussion about this interesting subject.
We can mention the ragas and their effect on us and our experiences in
identifying those etc.
I know, already many of the knowledgeable members know this. But just
to make the ball start rolling or revive this topic.
A few similar ragas:
Darbar - Nayaki: Kedaragoula - Surati: HariKambhoji - Khamas:
Madhyamavati - Sri -Mani Rangu:

KMK

srinidhi
Posts: 227
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 08:59

Post by srinidhi »

Bhairavi-Mukhari-Manji

kmk
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jun 2006, 17:27

Post by kmk »

Yes. especially Bhairavi and Manji.
Inspite of the clear audava-arohana, mukhari also
treads Bhairavi path some times.

Arabhi, Devagandhari also come to my mind.
Subhapantuvarali and Bhavapriya, though they are
different melakarta ragas, sometimes are confused.

KMK

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

One thing I want to point out about the bhairavi-mAnji pair...

Expressed as an equation

Diff(bhairavi, Brovavamma mAnji) < Diff ( Brovavamma mAnji, Varugalamo mAnji).

kmk
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jun 2006, 17:27

Post by kmk »

You are correct.
One more addition is Vasanta - Lalita.

srinidhi
Posts: 227
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 08:59

Post by srinidhi »

Also, Shubhapantuvarali and kumudakriya

Vocalist
Posts: 1030
Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53

Post by Vocalist »

I think kedAragoula & suruti are audibly quite different.

kAmboji, harikAmboji & valaji have similarities.

Apparently reetigoula & Anandabhairavi are very similar too?

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Correct me if am wrong ..

Abhogi-Sriranjini

Shudha Saveri - Durga

Sarasangi - Charukesi ...

kmk
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jun 2006, 17:27

Post by kmk »

'The pairs of similar ragas' coming out is heartwarming.

Abhogi and Sri Ranjani have a slight difference. They are of the same Janaka Raga, though.
Sri Ranjani has a Nishada in Arohana and Avarohana, in addition.

Charukesi and Sarasangi have the difference only in Nishada, the last swara of the sampurna scale. Hence as long as the alapana and swaraprasthara are
between the first and sixth note, they may sound similar, even if the sancharas are different.

Durga, more or less, is the hindustani equivalent of Sudha Saveri.
Afew more pairs come to my mind.
Rudrapriya - poorna shadjamam.
Kantamani - Srutiranjani
Sudha Dhanyasi - Udayachandrika.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

CM Dwijavanthi is supposed to have a combination of Yadhukula Kambhoji and sahana. That is until I heard someone mention it that way. Until then dwijavanthi had a unique identity for me.

Same thing with Kedara Gowla and Suratti. I do not confuse the two, even though the differences are mainly in the execution of the same grammar.

HarikAmbhoji - kamAs: I do not confuse these two.. I may not be able to correctly pick out HarikAmbhoji but kamAs has a more distinct personality. In terms of wrong identification, I tend to wrongly tag vAchaspathi as harikAmbhoji ( that is just me ), usually so if I start to listen to the middle of a song that is not already known to me.

That is at one end of the spectrum. Differences between Darbar-nAyaKi, vasantha-lalitha etc. are not significantly different enough for my ears to tell the difference if I heard an unknown song, though more experienced rasikas scoff at people who can't tell the difference ;)

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Folks
Here is lecdem that I found in my vollections by Vid||OST which is most relevant to this thread
http://rapidshare.de/files/22729772/all ... s.mp3.html
Since this is noncommercial feel free to distribute. Listen to this slowly to relish the subtle beauty of the ragas that OST expounds!

Pl discuss each of these combinations too from your experience and other examples and make it lively! Regards

kiransurya
Posts: 781
Joined: 13 Dec 2005, 15:58

Post by kiransurya »

Same thing with Kedara Gowla and Suratti. I do not confuse the two, even though the differences are mainly in the execution of the same grammar

VK!!!
Kedara Gowla can be sung in all the three sthayis. However, Suruti is usually limted to only two. Atleast thats what I feel.

I find Dwijawanthi closer to Sahana than to YK

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks CML... OST has covered so many groups of allied ragas. Excellent.

I wrote above that I once mis-id'd a Vachaspathi song as Harikambhoji. After listening to OMT, I realize my confusion is quite shameful ;) There was that only that one occasion, I will have recall which song it is and lisen to it again and sort out the source of the confusion...

I am still not clear between chakravaham and Ahir Bhairav. OST says Ahir Bhairav is a lighter version of Chakravaham. I do not have a good mental identity for AB but when I listen to AB it does not take me close to chakravaham.

His Arabhi-Devagandhari demo is excellent. I am not sure too many people confuse the two since they have distinct personalities but it is nice to have it recapped succinctly.

Minor complaint: In certain parts it is a bit confusing which of the two ragas he is singing since he sometimes labels the raga before and sometimes after. So, consistency of presentation of material would help the listeners.

OST has provided a trasure trove of artitistic content in that one hour.

meena
Posts: 3326
Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

this maybe of some interest:
DELETED
Last edited by meena on 07 May 2008, 01:36, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Vk

I have internalized AB as HM and cakravaham as distinctly CM.
I agree OST is too casual in mentioning what raga he is referring to. But if you know the raga you know what it is ;)
I guess this is a casual lecdem and he iis quite relaxed...
Again everybody whenever we mention similar raga talk about darbar/nayaki ad nauseum and OST does not focus on that and his discussion is meaningful!

Shall we add ADANA/aTANA to the list once SR gets to prove it ;)

kiransurya
Posts: 781
Joined: 13 Dec 2005, 15:58

Post by kiransurya »

CML
May be we should add them too if he does prove..

Thanks for that lecdem. Very informative..

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

OST talks about groups of allied rAgAs, even if those rAgAs have distinct personalities. In CM circles, aTTANa is not normally considered to be allied with kAnaDa and OST did not talk about them together either.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Even OST does not show how one raga 'morphs' into the the other. That kind of a demo will be fascinating to watch. For example we can morph sankarabharanam to kalyani two ways. One is just changing the madyamam to prati madhyamam and the other is by doing srutibhedam on madhyamam. In both cases we will not get kalyani unless the gamakams too are changed. But in the case of nayaki/darbar or arabhi/devagandhari one can slip from one to the other seamlessly just by controlling the length of the notes! There is a fascinating scope for raga-research through these subtle manipulations.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Quite correct. Morphing sankarabaranam into kalyani or vice versa is not even ponderable since they are not morphable even with madhyama substitution and gamaka changes. ( as we know the characteristic phrases are different ).

As you said, Arabhi-devagandari example can be a prototype for some new ragas ( not sure about darbar-nayaki example in this context ). If someone can find a new melodic personality by changing the nyasa swaras of a raga and some good new prayogams that are not found in the parent raga, that will indeed be interesting. If challenged, we can bring Arabhi-DG as a precedent. May the the low hanging fruits are ragas that are sung briskly. For such a raga, impose a different nyasa swara with different prayogams and mandate that this new raga has to be sung at a slower gait. Another idea....since the inventor has all the cards, he/she can also mandate that it should be sung only in Thisra or Kanda nadai to further establish the uniqueness and new identity.

In reality, these allied ragas may have had an organic evolution over the centuries rather than one yesteryear vidwan in his spare time inventing such ragas. But that does not mean we can not do that.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

After Listening to Srirangam Iyengars Rishabhapriya , I am now inclined to add another combination
Rishabhapriya - Lathangi-- are they related too??
.Somehow i never got this feeling listening to MLV's version :?

venkatpv
Posts: 373
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:23

Post by venkatpv »

Rishabhapriya is the 62nd and Lathangi is the 63rd melakarta... they are pretty damn close scale-wise...

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

shanmukhapriya-simhendramadhyamam.
Though I can tell shanmukhapriya , SM can be confusing

inconsequential
Posts: 124
Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 00:10

Post by inconsequential »

coolkarni sir, yes indeed

riShabhapriyA (62) is very close to lathAngi. it is lathAngi in the lower half (pUrvAnga), and cArukEsi in the upper (uttarAnga). in other words, it is the 'prati-madhyama' equivalent of cArukEsi (26)

jayamanohari is another teaser - it is abhOgi on the ascent and srIranjani in the descent

regards

inconsequential
Posts: 124
Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 00:10

Post by inconsequential »

sujirAm

shaNmukhapriyA with higher niShAdam (touching the higher Sa) is SM.

shaNmukhapriyA with sudha madhyamam is naTabhairavi. this is one of the reasons naTabhairavi is seldom heard on stage. very easy to slip and fall into the shaNmukhapriyA trap - because of latter's immense popularity.

SM with suddha madhyamam is kIravANi

regards

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

kmk .
must really thank you for this thread.
is developing into the right kind of benchmark tool for me !!
descriptions like
jayamanohari is another teaser - it is abhOgi on the ascent and srIranjani in the descent
are just the right stuff for me ;)

BTW can I see traces of sahana in kedaragowla too .. I get this feeling in some places whenever i listen to the Oduvars singing at Kapaleeswar Temple. Only a trace though before kedargowla makes it impact

inconsequential
Posts: 124
Joined: 22 Mar 2005, 00:10

Post by inconsequential »

in this context, it would be great help to have dr.s.rAmanAthan's lecdem on allied rAgAs aswell. it used to be at sangeethapriya.org. unfortunately iam unable to get to my copy now. anyone has access to that lec-demo?

kmk sir, u can add dEsh to complete the structurally similar trio - k.gowLai, suruTTi, and dEsh.

regards

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

http://rapidshare.de/files/22645134/SRa ... shaNas.zip
this was posted in sangeeta vidhyalayam thread

srinidhi
Posts: 227
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 08:59

Post by srinidhi »

For my untrained ears, even Ramapriya can be confusing at the first hear.
It begins like pantuvarali, and I sit back happy that I got it right, then as the alapana reaches into the higher notes, I find myself humming "paraatpara" ...Omigosh was it Vaachaspati all along? Finally when the artist begins "Maatangi" or "Sandehamu"... then it dawns on me- It is Ramapriya, yippee :cheesy:

kmk
Posts: 5
Joined: 09 Jun 2006, 17:27

Post by kmk »

Yes I agree. Desh has got a part resemblence to Kedaragoula and Surati.
Also, Jaya Manohari is a perfect example of 'bringing out something different'
eventhough it is not far different from Abhogi and Sriranjani.
These thoughts can be extended to even practitioners singing some ragas keeping some already popuiular ragas in mind and then replacing one of
its swaras.
As an ex. Sudha Madhyama is replaced by Prati Madhyama in Thodi,
to carve out a difficult but evocative Bhavapriya (Bhavani for Deekshitar
students).
More light is welcome.

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

A few more similar sounding ragas:
- Asaveri and Dhanyasi
- Narayanagowla and Dvijavanti
- Shuddhasaveri and Devamanohari
- Pantuvarali and Purvikalyani
- Saraswati and Vijayanagari
- Abheri and Shuddhadhanyasi
- Revagupti and Bhoopalam
- Kalyani and Hamsadhwani (occasionally yes!)

Can someone re-post the OST lecdem please! (preferably on a non-rapidshare site like rogepost.com)
Last edited by jayaram on 27 Nov 2006, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.

chalanata
Posts: 603
Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55

Post by chalanata »

arabi and devagandhari
shanmugapria and simmendra madyamam
thodi and dhanyasi
mohanam and mohanakalyani
saranga and yamuna kalyani?
anandha bhairavi and reethi gowla?
nadanamakria, mayamalava gowla and co
dharbar and nayaki
and many more.......
aberi and karnataka devagandhari are one and the same?
Last edited by chalanata on 28 Nov 2006, 13:21, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

- Kalyani and Hamsadhwani (occasionally yes!)
Do you mean occasionally these two ragas sound similar to you or you mean they are in general considered to have occasional similarities? I am not aware of any such similarities.

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

saranga and yamuna kalyani?
You mean, Saranga and Hameer kalyani - right?

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Do you mean occasionally these two ragas sound similar to you or you mean they are in general considered to have occasional similarities? I am not aware of any such similarities.
Until the distinct notes are touched, they could sound quite similar. Some of my rasika friends have told me the same.

chalanata
Posts: 603
Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55

Post by chalanata »

jayaram,

you're right. sorry for the mix up. it is saranga and hameerkalyani.

Jyothsna_music
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Sep 2006, 17:29

Post by Jyothsna_music »

Pushpalathika - Manirangu, Nagaswaravali - bahudari are also twins

Rgds
Jyothsna SaiRam

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

now i forget
gowrimanohari was close to some raga too !!

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

coolkarni wrote:now i forget
gowrimanohari was close to some raga too !!
sometimes kIravAni.

Arun

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Now that we have a fairly long list of allied ragas, perhaps someone can comment on how to differentiate between them - for example, using distinguishing prayogas/phrases.

I am told BMK has done an elaborate alapana of Todi, where he goes on for a long time without touching any of the characteristic phrases, thus teasing the poor listeners into tears! Wonder if someone has that or similar recordings of Murali-garu.

As a contrast, someone like MDR would bring out the raga rupa within the first few notes itself.
Last edited by jayaram on 29 Nov 2006, 21:56, edited 1 time in total.

Jyothsna_music
Posts: 36
Joined: 24 Sep 2006, 17:29

Post by Jyothsna_music »

can i get the lec dem again. the rapid share link and other link are not opening


Rgds
Jyothsna SaiRam

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

jayaram wrote:Now that we have a fairly long list of allied ragas, perhaps someone can comment on how to differentiate between them - for example, using distinguishing prayogas/phrases.
There is a very nice lecdem of Sri TM Krishna (held at Shivamogga) on sangeethapriya. Check it out if you haven't.

Darbar/Nayaki, Bhairavi/Manji/Mukhari/Huseni, Sri/Madhyamavati/Manirangu/Brindavani are discussed in this.

-Ram
Last edited by ramakriya on 30 Nov 2006, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

can i get the lec dem again. the rapid share link and other link are not opening
"jyothsna

as u know, on this forum we use audio clips to understand the topic of discussions. Requesting for reuploads or clips one missed will be an never ending assignments don't u think?"

<<am just repeating the admonition from an Admin here :)>>
Last edited by jayaram on 30 Nov 2006, 04:55, edited 1 time in total.

swamirams72
Posts: 6
Joined: 17 Nov 2006, 21:17

Post by swamirams72 »

Madhuvanti and Dharmavati.
Malayamarutham, Valaji and Janasammodhini
Sivaranjani and Vijayanahari
Darbar and Nayaki
Nalinakanthi and Kadanakudhoohalam
Ritigowla and aanandhabhairavi
Hindolam and Suddha hindolam

chalanata
Posts: 603
Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 15:55

Post by chalanata »

saramathi and natabhairavi?
hindolam and chandragownce.

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Post by ragam-talam »

hindolam and chandrakauns are the CM-HM sister ragas.

Perhaps we can pick a pair (or trio) of allied ragas and discuss the differences.
How about we start with darbar-nayaki? The gandharam is treated differently between the two. And nayaki has lots of jaaru gamakas.

kalgada78
Posts: 210
Joined: 19 Jun 2005, 22:01

Post by kalgada78 »

hindolam has a kaisiki nishadam and Chandrakaus has a kakali nishadam...
if you can call them sister ragas ;-)

Sarma

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

That should be hindolam and malkauns perhaps?
Last edited by jayaram on 04 Dec 2006, 05:56, edited 1 time in total.

shripathi_g
Posts: 356
Joined: 30 Mar 2005, 08:25

Post by shripathi_g »

I have found Desh and Nalinakanthi similar sometimes. Saramathi, Margahindolam too.

srinidhi
Posts: 227
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 08:59

Post by srinidhi »

On Tuesdays, G Ravikiran (our forum member) hosts a special show on Shruti-Worldspace focussing on allied ragas. Each show delas with a few ragas which sound similar yet retain an identity of their own.

So far he has covered (1) Sri-Madhyamavati-Manirangu (2) Bhairavi-Mukhari-Manji-Huseni (3) Yaduklakambhoji-Dwijavanti (4) Anandabhairavi-Reetigowlai- Abheri.

The program repeats on Fridays 9PM.

srinivas
Posts: 10
Joined: 05 Dec 2006, 16:15

Post by srinivas »

i joined he forum recently,can me have the mishra hindola raga lnks]
secondly list of raagas in carnatic music

Post Reply