Similar Ragas
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We have Ragas which are almost identical for the listener.
For the Artist, they should be different and the nuances of each should be correctly brought out.
Shall we have a discussion about this interesting subject.
We can mention the ragas and their effect on us and our experiences in
identifying those etc.
I know, already many of the knowledgeable members know this. But just
to make the ball start rolling or revive this topic.
A few similar ragas:
Darbar - Nayaki: Kedaragoula - Surati: HariKambhoji - Khamas:
Madhyamavati - Sri -Mani Rangu:
KMK
For the Artist, they should be different and the nuances of each should be correctly brought out.
Shall we have a discussion about this interesting subject.
We can mention the ragas and their effect on us and our experiences in
identifying those etc.
I know, already many of the knowledgeable members know this. But just
to make the ball start rolling or revive this topic.
A few similar ragas:
Darbar - Nayaki: Kedaragoula - Surati: HariKambhoji - Khamas:
Madhyamavati - Sri -Mani Rangu:
KMK
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'The pairs of similar ragas' coming out is heartwarming.
Abhogi and Sri Ranjani have a slight difference. They are of the same Janaka Raga, though.
Sri Ranjani has a Nishada in Arohana and Avarohana, in addition.
Charukesi and Sarasangi have the difference only in Nishada, the last swara of the sampurna scale. Hence as long as the alapana and swaraprasthara are
between the first and sixth note, they may sound similar, even if the sancharas are different.
Durga, more or less, is the hindustani equivalent of Sudha Saveri.
Afew more pairs come to my mind.
Rudrapriya - poorna shadjamam.
Kantamani - Srutiranjani
Sudha Dhanyasi - Udayachandrika.
Abhogi and Sri Ranjani have a slight difference. They are of the same Janaka Raga, though.
Sri Ranjani has a Nishada in Arohana and Avarohana, in addition.
Charukesi and Sarasangi have the difference only in Nishada, the last swara of the sampurna scale. Hence as long as the alapana and swaraprasthara are
between the first and sixth note, they may sound similar, even if the sancharas are different.
Durga, more or less, is the hindustani equivalent of Sudha Saveri.
Afew more pairs come to my mind.
Rudrapriya - poorna shadjamam.
Kantamani - Srutiranjani
Sudha Dhanyasi - Udayachandrika.
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CM Dwijavanthi is supposed to have a combination of Yadhukula Kambhoji and sahana. That is until I heard someone mention it that way. Until then dwijavanthi had a unique identity for me.
Same thing with Kedara Gowla and Suratti. I do not confuse the two, even though the differences are mainly in the execution of the same grammar.
HarikAmbhoji - kamAs: I do not confuse these two.. I may not be able to correctly pick out HarikAmbhoji but kamAs has a more distinct personality. In terms of wrong identification, I tend to wrongly tag vAchaspathi as harikAmbhoji ( that is just me ), usually so if I start to listen to the middle of a song that is not already known to me.
That is at one end of the spectrum. Differences between Darbar-nAyaKi, vasantha-lalitha etc. are not significantly different enough for my ears to tell the difference if I heard an unknown song, though more experienced rasikas scoff at people who can't tell the difference
Same thing with Kedara Gowla and Suratti. I do not confuse the two, even though the differences are mainly in the execution of the same grammar.
HarikAmbhoji - kamAs: I do not confuse these two.. I may not be able to correctly pick out HarikAmbhoji but kamAs has a more distinct personality. In terms of wrong identification, I tend to wrongly tag vAchaspathi as harikAmbhoji ( that is just me ), usually so if I start to listen to the middle of a song that is not already known to me.
That is at one end of the spectrum. Differences between Darbar-nAyaKi, vasantha-lalitha etc. are not significantly different enough for my ears to tell the difference if I heard an unknown song, though more experienced rasikas scoff at people who can't tell the difference
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Folks
Here is lecdem that I found in my vollections by Vid||OST which is most relevant to this thread
http://rapidshare.de/files/22729772/all ... s.mp3.html
Since this is noncommercial feel free to distribute. Listen to this slowly to relish the subtle beauty of the ragas that OST expounds!
Pl discuss each of these combinations too from your experience and other examples and make it lively! Regards
Here is lecdem that I found in my vollections by Vid||OST which is most relevant to this thread
http://rapidshare.de/files/22729772/all ... s.mp3.html
Since this is noncommercial feel free to distribute. Listen to this slowly to relish the subtle beauty of the ragas that OST expounds!
Pl discuss each of these combinations too from your experience and other examples and make it lively! Regards
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Same thing with Kedara Gowla and Suratti. I do not confuse the two, even though the differences are mainly in the execution of the same grammar
VK!!!
Kedara Gowla can be sung in all the three sthayis. However, Suruti is usually limted to only two. Atleast thats what I feel.
I find Dwijawanthi closer to Sahana than to YK
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Thanks CML... OST has covered so many groups of allied ragas. Excellent.
I wrote above that I once mis-id'd a Vachaspathi song as Harikambhoji. After listening to OMT, I realize my confusion is quite shameful There was that only that one occasion, I will have recall which song it is and lisen to it again and sort out the source of the confusion...
I am still not clear between chakravaham and Ahir Bhairav. OST says Ahir Bhairav is a lighter version of Chakravaham. I do not have a good mental identity for AB but when I listen to AB it does not take me close to chakravaham.
His Arabhi-Devagandhari demo is excellent. I am not sure too many people confuse the two since they have distinct personalities but it is nice to have it recapped succinctly.
Minor complaint: In certain parts it is a bit confusing which of the two ragas he is singing since he sometimes labels the raga before and sometimes after. So, consistency of presentation of material would help the listeners.
OST has provided a trasure trove of artitistic content in that one hour.
I wrote above that I once mis-id'd a Vachaspathi song as Harikambhoji. After listening to OMT, I realize my confusion is quite shameful There was that only that one occasion, I will have recall which song it is and lisen to it again and sort out the source of the confusion...
I am still not clear between chakravaham and Ahir Bhairav. OST says Ahir Bhairav is a lighter version of Chakravaham. I do not have a good mental identity for AB but when I listen to AB it does not take me close to chakravaham.
His Arabhi-Devagandhari demo is excellent. I am not sure too many people confuse the two since they have distinct personalities but it is nice to have it recapped succinctly.
Minor complaint: In certain parts it is a bit confusing which of the two ragas he is singing since he sometimes labels the raga before and sometimes after. So, consistency of presentation of material would help the listeners.
OST has provided a trasure trove of artitistic content in that one hour.
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Vk
I have internalized AB as HM and cakravaham as distinctly CM.
I agree OST is too casual in mentioning what raga he is referring to. But if you know the raga you know what it is
I guess this is a casual lecdem and he iis quite relaxed...
Again everybody whenever we mention similar raga talk about darbar/nayaki ad nauseum and OST does not focus on that and his discussion is meaningful!
Shall we add ADANA/aTANA to the list once SR gets to prove it
I have internalized AB as HM and cakravaham as distinctly CM.
I agree OST is too casual in mentioning what raga he is referring to. But if you know the raga you know what it is
I guess this is a casual lecdem and he iis quite relaxed...
Again everybody whenever we mention similar raga talk about darbar/nayaki ad nauseum and OST does not focus on that and his discussion is meaningful!
Shall we add ADANA/aTANA to the list once SR gets to prove it
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Even OST does not show how one raga 'morphs' into the the other. That kind of a demo will be fascinating to watch. For example we can morph sankarabharanam to kalyani two ways. One is just changing the madyamam to prati madhyamam and the other is by doing srutibhedam on madhyamam. In both cases we will not get kalyani unless the gamakams too are changed. But in the case of nayaki/darbar or arabhi/devagandhari one can slip from one to the other seamlessly just by controlling the length of the notes! There is a fascinating scope for raga-research through these subtle manipulations.
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Quite correct. Morphing sankarabaranam into kalyani or vice versa is not even ponderable since they are not morphable even with madhyama substitution and gamaka changes. ( as we know the characteristic phrases are different ).
As you said, Arabhi-devagandari example can be a prototype for some new ragas ( not sure about darbar-nayaki example in this context ). If someone can find a new melodic personality by changing the nyasa swaras of a raga and some good new prayogams that are not found in the parent raga, that will indeed be interesting. If challenged, we can bring Arabhi-DG as a precedent. May the the low hanging fruits are ragas that are sung briskly. For such a raga, impose a different nyasa swara with different prayogams and mandate that this new raga has to be sung at a slower gait. Another idea....since the inventor has all the cards, he/she can also mandate that it should be sung only in Thisra or Kanda nadai to further establish the uniqueness and new identity.
In reality, these allied ragas may have had an organic evolution over the centuries rather than one yesteryear vidwan in his spare time inventing such ragas. But that does not mean we can not do that.
As you said, Arabhi-devagandari example can be a prototype for some new ragas ( not sure about darbar-nayaki example in this context ). If someone can find a new melodic personality by changing the nyasa swaras of a raga and some good new prayogams that are not found in the parent raga, that will indeed be interesting. If challenged, we can bring Arabhi-DG as a precedent. May the the low hanging fruits are ragas that are sung briskly. For such a raga, impose a different nyasa swara with different prayogams and mandate that this new raga has to be sung at a slower gait. Another idea....since the inventor has all the cards, he/she can also mandate that it should be sung only in Thisra or Kanda nadai to further establish the uniqueness and new identity.
In reality, these allied ragas may have had an organic evolution over the centuries rather than one yesteryear vidwan in his spare time inventing such ragas. But that does not mean we can not do that.
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coolkarni sir, yes indeed
riShabhapriyA (62) is very close to lathAngi. it is lathAngi in the lower half (pUrvAnga), and cArukEsi in the upper (uttarAnga). in other words, it is the 'prati-madhyama' equivalent of cArukEsi (26)
jayamanohari is another teaser - it is abhOgi on the ascent and srIranjani in the descent
regards
riShabhapriyA (62) is very close to lathAngi. it is lathAngi in the lower half (pUrvAnga), and cArukEsi in the upper (uttarAnga). in other words, it is the 'prati-madhyama' equivalent of cArukEsi (26)
jayamanohari is another teaser - it is abhOgi on the ascent and srIranjani in the descent
regards
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sujirAm
shaNmukhapriyA with higher niShAdam (touching the higher Sa) is SM.
shaNmukhapriyA with sudha madhyamam is naTabhairavi. this is one of the reasons naTabhairavi is seldom heard on stage. very easy to slip and fall into the shaNmukhapriyA trap - because of latter's immense popularity.
SM with suddha madhyamam is kIravANi
regards
shaNmukhapriyA with higher niShAdam (touching the higher Sa) is SM.
shaNmukhapriyA with sudha madhyamam is naTabhairavi. this is one of the reasons naTabhairavi is seldom heard on stage. very easy to slip and fall into the shaNmukhapriyA trap - because of latter's immense popularity.
SM with suddha madhyamam is kIravANi
regards
kmk .
must really thank you for this thread.
is developing into the right kind of benchmark tool for me !!
descriptions like
BTW can I see traces of sahana in kedaragowla too .. I get this feeling in some places whenever i listen to the Oduvars singing at Kapaleeswar Temple. Only a trace though before kedargowla makes it impact
must really thank you for this thread.
is developing into the right kind of benchmark tool for me !!
descriptions like
are just the right stuff for mejayamanohari is another teaser - it is abhOgi on the ascent and srIranjani in the descent
BTW can I see traces of sahana in kedaragowla too .. I get this feeling in some places whenever i listen to the Oduvars singing at Kapaleeswar Temple. Only a trace though before kedargowla makes it impact
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in this context, it would be great help to have dr.s.rAmanAthan's lecdem on allied rAgAs aswell. it used to be at sangeethapriya.org. unfortunately iam unable to get to my copy now. anyone has access to that lec-demo?
kmk sir, u can add dEsh to complete the structurally similar trio - k.gowLai, suruTTi, and dEsh.
regards
kmk sir, u can add dEsh to complete the structurally similar trio - k.gowLai, suruTTi, and dEsh.
regards
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http://rapidshare.de/files/22645134/SRa ... shaNas.zip
this was posted in sangeeta vidhyalayam thread
this was posted in sangeeta vidhyalayam thread
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For my untrained ears, even Ramapriya can be confusing at the first hear.
It begins like pantuvarali, and I sit back happy that I got it right, then as the alapana reaches into the higher notes, I find myself humming "paraatpara" ...Omigosh was it Vaachaspati all along? Finally when the artist begins "Maatangi" or "Sandehamu"... then it dawns on me- It is Ramapriya, yippee :cheesy:
It begins like pantuvarali, and I sit back happy that I got it right, then as the alapana reaches into the higher notes, I find myself humming "paraatpara" ...Omigosh was it Vaachaspati all along? Finally when the artist begins "Maatangi" or "Sandehamu"... then it dawns on me- It is Ramapriya, yippee :cheesy:
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Yes I agree. Desh has got a part resemblence to Kedaragoula and Surati.
Also, Jaya Manohari is a perfect example of 'bringing out something different'
eventhough it is not far different from Abhogi and Sriranjani.
These thoughts can be extended to even practitioners singing some ragas keeping some already popuiular ragas in mind and then replacing one of
its swaras.
As an ex. Sudha Madhyama is replaced by Prati Madhyama in Thodi,
to carve out a difficult but evocative Bhavapriya (Bhavani for Deekshitar
students).
More light is welcome.
Also, Jaya Manohari is a perfect example of 'bringing out something different'
eventhough it is not far different from Abhogi and Sriranjani.
These thoughts can be extended to even practitioners singing some ragas keeping some already popuiular ragas in mind and then replacing one of
its swaras.
As an ex. Sudha Madhyama is replaced by Prati Madhyama in Thodi,
to carve out a difficult but evocative Bhavapriya (Bhavani for Deekshitar
students).
More light is welcome.
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A few more similar sounding ragas:
- Asaveri and Dhanyasi
- Narayanagowla and Dvijavanti
- Shuddhasaveri and Devamanohari
- Pantuvarali and Purvikalyani
- Saraswati and Vijayanagari
- Abheri and Shuddhadhanyasi
- Revagupti and Bhoopalam
- Kalyani and Hamsadhwani (occasionally yes!)
Can someone re-post the OST lecdem please! (preferably on a non-rapidshare site like rogepost.com)
- Asaveri and Dhanyasi
- Narayanagowla and Dvijavanti
- Shuddhasaveri and Devamanohari
- Pantuvarali and Purvikalyani
- Saraswati and Vijayanagari
- Abheri and Shuddhadhanyasi
- Revagupti and Bhoopalam
- Kalyani and Hamsadhwani (occasionally yes!)
Can someone re-post the OST lecdem please! (preferably on a non-rapidshare site like rogepost.com)
Last edited by jayaram on 27 Nov 2006, 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
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arabi and devagandhari
shanmugapria and simmendra madyamam
thodi and dhanyasi
mohanam and mohanakalyani
saranga and yamuna kalyani?
anandha bhairavi and reethi gowla?
nadanamakria, mayamalava gowla and co
dharbar and nayaki
and many more.......
aberi and karnataka devagandhari are one and the same?
shanmugapria and simmendra madyamam
thodi and dhanyasi
mohanam and mohanakalyani
saranga and yamuna kalyani?
anandha bhairavi and reethi gowla?
nadanamakria, mayamalava gowla and co
dharbar and nayaki
and many more.......
aberi and karnataka devagandhari are one and the same?
Last edited by chalanata on 28 Nov 2006, 13:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Now that we have a fairly long list of allied ragas, perhaps someone can comment on how to differentiate between them - for example, using distinguishing prayogas/phrases.
I am told BMK has done an elaborate alapana of Todi, where he goes on for a long time without touching any of the characteristic phrases, thus teasing the poor listeners into tears! Wonder if someone has that or similar recordings of Murali-garu.
As a contrast, someone like MDR would bring out the raga rupa within the first few notes itself.
I am told BMK has done an elaborate alapana of Todi, where he goes on for a long time without touching any of the characteristic phrases, thus teasing the poor listeners into tears! Wonder if someone has that or similar recordings of Murali-garu.
As a contrast, someone like MDR would bring out the raga rupa within the first few notes itself.
Last edited by jayaram on 29 Nov 2006, 21:56, edited 1 time in total.
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There is a very nice lecdem of Sri TM Krishna (held at Shivamogga) on sangeethapriya. Check it out if you haven't.jayaram wrote:Now that we have a fairly long list of allied ragas, perhaps someone can comment on how to differentiate between them - for example, using distinguishing prayogas/phrases.
Darbar/Nayaki, Bhairavi/Manji/Mukhari/Huseni, Sri/Madhyamavati/Manirangu/Brindavani are discussed in this.
-Ram
Last edited by ramakriya on 30 Nov 2006, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
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"jyothsnacan i get the lec dem again. the rapid share link and other link are not opening
as u know, on this forum we use audio clips to understand the topic of discussions. Requesting for reuploads or clips one missed will be an never ending assignments don't u think?"
<<am just repeating the admonition from an Admin here >>
Last edited by jayaram on 30 Nov 2006, 04:55, edited 1 time in total.
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On Tuesdays, G Ravikiran (our forum member) hosts a special show on Shruti-Worldspace focussing on allied ragas. Each show delas with a few ragas which sound similar yet retain an identity of their own.
So far he has covered (1) Sri-Madhyamavati-Manirangu (2) Bhairavi-Mukhari-Manji-Huseni (3) Yaduklakambhoji-Dwijavanti (4) Anandabhairavi-Reetigowlai- Abheri.
The program repeats on Fridays 9PM.
So far he has covered (1) Sri-Madhyamavati-Manirangu (2) Bhairavi-Mukhari-Manji-Huseni (3) Yaduklakambhoji-Dwijavanti (4) Anandabhairavi-Reetigowlai- Abheri.
The program repeats on Fridays 9PM.