Evolution of the HM/CM 'jugalbandhi'!

Classical Music of North India
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rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »


jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Sorry, these jugalbandhis are just not my cup of tea...even less are the east-west fusion encounters.
Now, a KVN-Semmangudi or MS-Semmangudi recital - that's what I call seventh heaven!
Last edited by jayaram on 17 Nov 2006, 20:11, edited 1 time in total.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

jayaram
You must try to acquire an album of jugalbandis of Vinayak Torvi (hindusthani) and S Shankar (Carnatic) - someone in Bangalore can help you -Titled "Milan"..

It is the most innovative approach , that I have seen, in Jugalbandis.
Simply because both of them sing the same lines -That way one gets to know the difference between the two systems very very clearly.

Next to that , the album of ravikiran and gaurav mazumdar...

jayaram
Posts: 1317
Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Thank you, Coolkarni, I will look for the album. In fact a friend of mine is leaving for Bangalore this week, so I will ask him.

By the way, any progress on the Manakkal front? I recd an email from Sriram yesterday and he hasn't mentioned about it.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

meeting in cyberspace is more easy , compared to meeting in real world.

I have been in touch with sriram , regularly though.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Evolution of the CM-HM Jugalbandi..

I would have loved it,if that could have taken off from the "Thanam" (and of course ragam too before that) aspect of performing.
It is such a fertile ground for both the artists to find something in common and then go on to other experiments.
Have a look at what TNS and Ajoy Chakraborthy do here.
Simply mesmerising !
o http://www.rogepost.com/dn/a82p

In fact in a few spots , I cannot find out who is who !

Little wonder that it took this duo to produce this magical piece --one artist who is arguably the most innovative in CM and another HM artist who at the ripe old age of 60 decided to learn CM !!



This article overlooks the fact that Ravisankar-S Balchander gave major duets in Chennai in the early 70s and late 60s.Even AIR chennai broadcast a series of jugalbandis .But that is all hearsay .That class of music must be lying in forgotten spools in some attic in a house waiting to be pulled down to make way for a flat !
Even Bhatt and Gindes popularity at SGS sabha in the 60s could have something to do with their Dhrupad style of singing.

But alas , Jugalbandis today are more a show of flashy colours.Big names ,tackling a small range of ragas -yaman , malkauns and Sohini .
Duets that turn into duels , at the slightest provocation.
(in fact my Dad used to compare such concerts to a tennis game where two players get onto the lawns to play a doubles match and end up playing singles with each other !!-while standing on the same side of the net-no wonder most serious rasikas loathe them and a large % of the rest wait for the percussionists to add to the confusion .


It is a pity that Chennai sabhas have not given space to the likes of N Rajam who gave some splendid duets with TN Krishnan..

Common ground between CM and HM -----
The work is all ahead of the current generation.
If only they can cast away the baggage of the famous gavthis, yaman's and malkauns's and look into the dharmavathis , shudh Dhanyasis,Brindavana sarangs , Meghs-Madhmath Sarangs....

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Thanks, Kji:
Maybe you can send in your opinion to the paper - maybe as a response in the 'letters to the Editor' section....

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

With apologies to Kipling: "North is North, and South is South, and never the twain shall meet"

HM and CM have parted ways long ago.

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

coolkarni wrote:Evolution of the CM-HM Jugalbandi..

I would have loved it,if that could have taken off from the "Thanam" (and of course ragam too before that) aspect of performing.
It is such a fertile ground for both the artists to find something in common and then go on to other experiments.
Have a look at what TNS and Ajoy Chakraborthy do here.
Simply mesmerising !
o http://www.rogepost.com/dn/a82p

In fact in a few spots , I cannot find out who is who !

Little wonder that it took this duo to produce this magical piece --one artist who is arguably the most innovative in CM and another HM artist who at the ripe old age of 60 decided to learn CM !!
....
Coolkarni,

Whoever wrote that article has never listened to anything as magical as the one you have posted now!
Your remark about not being able to find who is who is right on the spot.
If only they can cast away the baggage of the famous gavthis, yaman's and malkauns's and look into the dharmavathis , shudh Dhanyasis,Brindavana sarangs , Meghs-Madhmath Sarangs....
Few other possibilities are vachaspati, latangi, simhendramadhyama, kIravAni , chArukEshi etc. I have heard a few of these combinations from Nagamani Srinath and Shyamala Bhave,.


-Ramakriya

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

In fact the first ever jugalbandi I Heard was by MS Sheela-Susheela Ullal WAY BACK IN 78 at Davangere Choultry..

here is another gem from TNK with Bale Khan on the Sitar

o http://www.rogepost.com/dn/c8kz

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Kulkarniji- amazing - the TNS-Ajoy clip, every time I hear it - although I have to admit that TNS' in edged out in the alaapana department by Ajoy thanks to HM's more rigorous vocal training.

BTW, almost every die-hard HM fan I have met tends to berate Ajoy's music...can't help wondering why this is the case....

Vijay

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Ajoy's music may look simple and juicy (the nearest equivalent in CM I can think of , is Santhanam) , but he is a trend setter in his own right-like Santhanam.
Conservative fans dont acknowledge his Patiala tag but then they also do not account for the fact with so many cross winds blowing ,The Concept of Gharana itself is in danger of becoming extinct..

But to his credit he still looks an inspired man on stage.

How many star musicians start a Music school exclusively for Kids -and that too hundreds of them.How many of them have opted to learn Carnatic Music at the age of 60.

There is also the politics of some groups calling themselves ,the true heirs of Bade Ghulam Ali Khans Music.
Try getting hold of the albums of all his concerts in Pakistan-they have a different story to tell.

You will now see an artist who bemoans the fact that dadras and thumris are sung only in a few ragas though many have existed in ragas like malkauns darbari etc and sings them too.

and in contrast he even sings a full length khayal in bhairavi ...

All this from a man who was a refugee , selling mats ,from door to door , ... His is a remarkable story.
Did you hear the short track of his tracing the origins of Bhairavi from Iran , through the western world , right into India ?I had put this up earlier here.

There is no better proof that he is a Thinking Musician.
No matter what those die hard fans say...

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

From the little I have heard Ajoy does come across as a rebel - in last year's performance at Bharath Sangeetotsav (featuring a very nice Ramkali) he said something to the effect that the time theory of ragas is devoid of any logical foundation...his layakari is also probably a result of CM training. It is said that he wants to give a full-fledged CM concert. I am eagerly waiting for the day!

So if I understand this correctly, his music is considered impure becuase it is not true to his moorings in the Patiala Gharana...isn't that also true of Rashid Khan (whose music is considered chaste) who claims to be influenced more by Bhimsen than his own Rampur school?

Anyway, I think this discussion more rightly belongs to the HM forum...my apologies!

Vijay

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

vijay

shall move this thread to HM sec. Pl. continue discussing :)

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Ok Meena. I am polishing up the reply a bit more.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Here is a Bhairavi piece by Ajoy Chakraborthy.

There were hardly 30 members in the audience by the time Ajoy took the consent of the harmonium artist and started playing it himself.

Sitting in my dimly lit corner , I was transported and carried through many early experiences.

If it was my younger days in the WM Class in an American Convent In Jamshedpur one moment , It was the Plaintive calls of the Mullah at the Mosque in my native place , the next .
( I would have spent all night watching some of greatest Carrom stars of the day battle it out for high stakes , in a smokefilled room in the complex of the mosque) and dozed off in a corner only to be woken up by the Mullahs call at 5 AM)

This is a great piece of Music - something which convinces me - that the Ajoy has taken upon himself ,the task of interpreting a glorious past , instead of blindly imitating it.

Bade Ghulam Alis rendering will always be the benchmark . no doubt , but spare a thought for Ajoy who sets up the mood for the song so beautifully-

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/y1bl

This is a track that will always remain in my top 100 .....

kalgada78
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005, 22:01

Post by kalgada78 »

Kulkarni Sir,
What a recording!! i wonder,if anyone can sing like him!!
who is the other voice?he sounds young,but very promising too.
Thanks much!
Sarma.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

sripathi
I plucked this out for you especially - a rare noncommercial charukesi.

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/6n3e

Ajoy goes on to
**compare and contrast Amir Khans method and bade Ghulam Alis method,
**Pay tribute to Chennai as a centre of musical excellence and despairs that Music is something he can never MASTER (while negotiating a few delicate angles of Charukesi)
**Show the Mukhda of the composition ...

an eventful track

Sarma- The accompanying singer is his disciple No 1.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Doesn't that third set of swarams in the Bhairavi piece, between 20:50 - 21:20 sound very much CMish? Nicely done.

kalgada78
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005, 22:01

Post by kalgada78 »

aahaa..again an extordinary charukesi!!This man appears to have mastered the notes.
If he sings Sa,it is Sa,Pa is Pa,Dha is Dha.And iam simply surprised by his humility
endaro Mahanubhavulu..andariki vandanamulu.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Sarma
Now Why dont you sing Bhayyan Na Dharo for us , here !

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

I second that request!

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Excellent, Charukeshi is a revelation - not much to do with its carnatic counterpart except for the scale. There is much to learn for carnatic musicians, irrespective of what purists might have to say...

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Jayaram .
If you have not downloaded these last few tracks , please do try this last one.
In a way , this is a fine proof of what we have been wanting to say about jugalbandis.
Jugalbandis are not about addressing the needs of the purists on both sides of the divide (as you would like to put it).
It is more of offering a peek into the joys of the OTHER system.
To the carnatic purist ,( Ensaar hadidde hadthare - hadu marethu hogideya -as one of my kannada friends puts it) it is the possibility of swooning over the image of Lord Siva just by looking at the Moon - as Ajoy keeps singing here in Yaman CHANDRAMA LALAT PAR ...-
Everytrime i listen to this track, the tune sticks for weeks.

To the HM Purist it is the lilt of a BMK Thillana , so wonderfully woven into the proceedings here..

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/85wa

With this, I rest my case.Happy listening.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Shashi,

I can see what you are doing here...trying to convert purists like me into jugalbandi lovers! ;)

Seriously, years ago once I was at the home of a family friend and an ardent CM rasika in Trivandrum. This senior gentleman had his whole room filled with spools and tapes of GNB, Ramnad Krishnan, MDR and the likes. Whenever I used to go to his place, he would play hours and hours of these masters' music (while making copies for me) and I would be in seventh heaven. On this day, he told me he had recd a jugalbandi recording and insisted I listen to it. I was shocked, and asked him if he was serious! He told me he made an exception to just this one. Guess which one it was? Yes, TNS and Ajoy singing Dharmavati!

I must admit I didn't listen to it that carefully, because I was already prejudiced (and still am to an extent!). In any case, shall listen to Ajoy-da again this weekend.

kalgada78
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005, 22:01

Post by kalgada78 »

Sarma
Now Why dont you sing Bhayyan Na Dharo for us , here !
Kulkarni Sir,
Just tried my hand.... I know,iam many hundred miles behind Lataji.please Bear with me again.

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/hlme

Sarma.

mnsriram
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Post by mnsriram »

Dear Sri Sarma, this is superb. Too good.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Sabhaash, Sarma-ji! Loved some of the sangatis you included in your version.
Now you can expect more requests from rasikas on this forum, so be prepared!

mnsriram
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Post by mnsriram »

Dear Sri Sarma, I just couldn't stop listening to your rendition and your voice is totally captivating. I never heard this song before and did a search and listened to Lataji's version online but I liked your version better.

Here is my attempt based on your version. I know it is nowhere near but I am posting it anyway.

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/sh0m

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Sriram, your rendition is also excellent!
By the way, this must be a 'misra' variety of Charukesi, because somehow it doesn't sound exactly like 'our' Charukesi. Am I right??

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Great singing Sarma and Sriram. Your enthusiasm is so infectious that I may try a hand too;) BTW I dont think this is cArukESi at all. It sounds like some miSra rAga with touches of malhAr. ( as there seems to appear a lot of "MRP,".) Of course I could be way off the mark here. Sounds dES-like in the uttarAnga. There are a lot of foreign swaras.

kalgada78
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Post by kalgada78 »

Sarva Sri Jayaram/Sriram/DRS,
Thanks for your nice words :-).Sriram, very nice rendition!!
Yeah,it's not our charukesi.It has a Kakali Nishadam and also Prati madhyamam at many places.May be,Madan Mohan had
tried some misra version of Charukesi.The Charukesi of Sri Ajoy Chakraborthy was alos having many notes,different from
our Charukesi.May be some Hindustani experts can chip in enlighten us on this.

Sarma.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Interesting viewpoint:
http://www.chennaionline.com/music/carn ... /305th.asp

The last sentence in the article says:
Is it any wonder then that I detest jugalbandhis?
ahem, ahem ;)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sarma, sriram: Very nice and excellent renditions. Both were very enjoyable.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Sarma,
That was excellent!
Thank you.
Sriram,
Superb job, considering you'd not heard of the song until now!

Sarma,
Can I request you to sing 'madhuban mein rAdhikA nAchE rE' next?
THANKS...
Ravi

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Sarma Sriram

BRAVO BRAVO.. Keep it up.
Talk of less recognized artists.I am shedding a few tears for Madan Mohan now.
Thank You !!

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

wow !

delight to hear u both. Very nicely rendered. thanku guys :)

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

For those of you whose charukesi is in disarray-thanks to this song-
Here is something to help restore it again-Prof SRJ-1983 Isai Vizha
:D

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/gwge

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Sarma,
Can I request you to sing 'madhuban mein rAdhikA nAchE rE' next?
THANKS...
Ravi
Please start a thread so that we can cover all the known songs (with an association to a raga)-
Listening to these versions without any accompaniment and only the drone , is such a wholesome experience.
Your enthusiasm is so infectious that I may try a hand too;)
DRS ..Looking forward to it ....

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

coolkarni wrote:Sarma Sriram

BRAVO BRAVO.. Keep it up.
Talk of less recognized artists.I am shedding a few tears for Madan Mohan now.
Thank You !!
Sarma, Sriram, Excellent!

I too see some tinge of malhAr and kalyAN off and on!
And some sArang too.

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 04 Dec 2006, 07:43, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

coolkarni wrote:For those of you whose charukesi is in disarray-thanks to this song-
Here is something to help restore it again-Prof SRJ-1983 Isai Vizha
:D
http://www.rogepost.com/dn/gwge
Nice. I guess 'vasantha mullai poley vandhu' is modeled after this song. That is one song that was attractive to me at a very young age. Sarma, sriram, can you try that song and post it in the new thread that ravi had created... at your leisure if at all possible.

kalgada78
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Joined: 19 Jun 2005, 22:01

Post by kalgada78 »

Kulkarni Sir/Shankar/Meena/VK Sir/Ramakriya,
Thanks much for your encouraging words!
Shankar,i'll try surely.but Rafi's style is inimitable.I'll end up posting my version :-)
VK Sir,i'll also try the song you have mentioned.

Thanks again!
Sarma.

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

kalgada78 wrote:Sarva Sri Jayaram/Sriram/DRS,

Yeah,it's not our charukesi.It has a Kakali Nishadam and also Prati madhyamam at many places.May be,Madan Mohan had
tried some misra version of Charukesi.The Charukesi of Sri Ajoy Chakraborthy was alos having many notes,different from
our Charukesi.May be some Hindustani experts can chip in enlighten us on this.

Sarma.
It seems to be a misra version of naT Bhairav (parallel to sarasAngi) rather than of charukeshi. There is a the strong tIvra nishAda. (That also explains the yaman chAye with little bit of prati madhyama coming in later on.) Of course, there is lot of 'misra'ization (if I may use that term :D ) as generally happens in film songs!

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 05 Dec 2006, 02:43, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Kulkarni sa'ab,
Were you able to attend this one?
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/12/08/stor ... 701000.htm

On another note: why is that this concert drew 100 rasikas while maNakkAl drew 25? What is the message being given here?

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

unfortunately no.
Though I have been trying to find the common ground between chayanat and janaranjini after reading this review- cannot find it though with my recordings !!

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

On another note: why is that this concert drew 100 rasikas while maNakkAl drew 25? What is the message being given here?
I was going to come up with an analogy to explain this, but decided against it - don't want to offend j-b lovers here!

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

http://www.karnatik.com/kartoons/kartoon001.jpg

A humorous look at jugalbandhis!

munirao2001
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Joined: 28 Feb 2009, 11:35

Post by munirao2001 »

On evolution of the HM/CM 'jugalbandhi'

During DR.Keskar/first Cabinet Minister for Information & Broad casting, DR.Keskar wanted 'Bharatiya Sangeet' to be established by merging both the systems of Indian Classical Music-HM and CM. At the AIR producers conference, his desire and views were discussed threadbare by stalwart musicians cum producers of AIR- Pt.Ravishankar-Pt.Pannalal Ghosh-P.Vyas - GNB-SSRao-Voleti etc.
Producers conference unanimously recommended to the ministry that this idea is not practical and not necessary also, as both the systems of music has evolved,initially on common grounds and branched out, grown, distinct and independent of each other, both serving the cause of Bharatiya Sangeeth.
The conference also recommended that AIR should work and pave the way for appreciation and enjoyment of both the systems Bharatiya Sangeeth, by the rasikas.
AIR started broadcast of National Program of Music with jugalbandhis. Jugalbandhi was of the format , wherein a similar,common and popular raga of both HM and CM are chosen and Ustads/Pandits of HM will perform first and followed by Vidwans/Vidushis will perform second, separately. After few programs, the program was taken off the AIR. The reason was that musicians were not showing adequate interest in participating/performing. When raga Jaijaiwanti and Dwijavanthi was chosen, no CM Maestros were willing to perform. As Chief Producer, GNB mama requested SSRao, Producer to take up the challenge and perform ! SSRao chose and sang Mudduswami Dikshita composition 'Cheta Sri Balakrishnam Bhaja re' and was well received and well appreciated by GNB.
If we stick to the original idea on jugalbandi, offer HM and CM music, as per the tradition,uncompromisingly and present educative concerts, , enlivening the rasikas of both HM and CM, the cause of Indian Music will be well served. I need to mention that the enthusiasm and support given by the Vidwans/Vidushis and rasikas of CM to HM is not at all matched by HM Ustads/Pandits and rasikas of HM. Lec-demo on the raga and the composition being taken up and the jugalbandi concert will definitely enlighten the listeners, will lead to appreciation, enjoyment and support of the rasikas.

munirao2001

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

...
Last edited by coolkarni on 26 Aug 2009, 18:08, edited 1 time in total.

parth
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 14:31

Post by parth »

hi...um i cannot seem to open the link for chandramaa lalat par...i'm really intrigued to listen to it...is there an alternative?

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