What does it mean to tune a kriti to a different ragam?

satishsatish · Post by **satishsatish** » 20 Oct 2015, 00:51

Every reference I find to Gopalakrishna Bharati's composition "Tillai Ambalatanai" refers to it as in Suruti ragam.
Sanjay Subramanyan's recording (Charsur label; "Tillai") is in Sahana ragam.

Years ago, Lakshman (who provided the lyrics to the song following my request) said it was possible Sanjay "tuned" it to the Sahana ragam.

My questions:
a) what does it mean to tune a song to a different ragam?
b) what is the motivation that prompts the tuning of a composition to a different ragam?
c) how customary and frequent is the practice of tuning a composition to a different ragam? why is it not done more frequently? what makes it challenging?
My understanding is that singing a song in a ragam different than what it was composed in is simply not kosher. Could I be wrong?
What then can explain why some are tuned and sung to a different ragam?
d) What are other examples of artistes that tuned compositions to a different ragam?

Thank you!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 20 Oct 2015, 01:20

Typically, compositions of Sri purandara dAsaru, annamAcArya, nArAyaNa tIrtha, bhArati are sung/tuned in many different rAgas - i.e., the same song is sung in many different rAgas.
Then, there are kRtis like yArO ivar yArO, or kaNDEn kaNDEn kaNDEn sItayai that are sung in a couple of different rAgas depending on the pAThAntaram.

satishsatish · Post by **satishsatish** » 20 Oct 2015, 02:29

Shankar:

I appreciate your quick and informative response.

Off I go to ferret out kritis--rendered in different ragams--composed by Sri purandara dAsaru, annamAcArya, nArAyaNa tIrtha, bhArati.
And the two other kritis you mentioned as well.

Thank you.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 20 Oct 2015, 05:26

Geetha Govindam (Ashtapadhi), Marathi Abhangs /Surdas poems may be added to post # 2 of rshankar.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Oct 2015, 06:40

When you take compositions of Sri Annamacharya, out of 32,000 songs he had composed about half are available in the inscribed copper plates found in the Tirumala temple. One could say with 99% accuracy that there was no history of continuous singing of these songs through 400 years or of oral transmission from guru to sishya. Thus there is no authentic tune or varna mettu for these songs. In addition, several of the ragas mentioned in the copper plates themselves have been lost. Thus one has no choice but to set them to tune anew. Here of course you have Dr Sripada Pinakapani choosing typical grand Carnatic ragas such as Sankarabharanam, Kalyani, etc. For instance, the song Brahmam Okate was tuned in Sankarabharam by Dr Pinakapani. Sri Nedunuri Krishnamurthy chose a mix of heavy as well as lighter ragas. He himself said in his last lec-dem at the Music Academy that he composed the tune as his imagination moved him. Thus you get the raga Revathi for Naanaati Bhrathuku whereas the copper plates indicate Mukhari as the raga of the song. Sri Voleti Venkateswarlu has been inspired by his intimate knowledge of Hindusthani music so he chose to set some songs in Hindusthani ragas.

As to Purandaradasa compositions, there is a history of continuous oral transmission of them in eighteen traditional ragas. The Mysore disease has struck today's singers from Karnataka who have decided to sing them in Hindusthani ragas, the lighter and filmier the better, at least according to them. This has ensured that these songs are fit only for singing as tukkadas.

Then there is the question of musicians deciding that certain swaras positioned right next to each other does not suit their voice and substitute one of the swaras. It is thus that you get Nagumomu Gana Leni Naa Jolly Thelisi sung to a jolly, lively tune completely different from the composer's intention and at odds with the meaning of the song. If you want Abheri, listen to Veenaabheri of Sri Muthuswami Deekshithar. A similar fate as befallen compositions of the Trinity.

Also, musicians have taken to substituting livelier ragas for somewhat more somber ones. MS as well as Madurai Mani Iyer have rendered Manasuloni with Suddha Dhaivatham and that was the Carnatic raga Hindolam. Malkauns has replaced Hindolam in this song and the original Hindolam has been renamed Varamu. Listen to Papanasam Sivan's Thunai Purindharul and you will hear the original tune of Manasuloni.

On top of that, you have Ilayaraja re-tuning one of Thyagaraja's compositions for the movie Sindhubhairavi.

In short, anything goes!

I hope that answers your question.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 20 Oct 2015, 08:12

Consider the number of vivadi krithis of the Trinity that have been re-tuned, even krithis like Gnyanamosagarada originally in Shadvitamargini. Even Vathapi Ganapatim, incredible as the present melody is, is also a retuning. I believe this whole concept of vivadi dosham has it's origin in many past musicians discomfort at consecutive semitonal notes. I cannot tell you how much we have lost insight into those ragas as a result.

Or that the Diskhitar system of handling ragas in their school is almost an extinct species, that was a serious loss to music as far as ragas go. The Abheri in his school is quite different from the Abheri with shuddha dhavaitam in Thyagaraja's school. The Abheri from Thyagaraja's school has merged with another raga called Karnataka Devagandhari at one point and except for a G2 R2 G2 phrase that crops up -- today there is almost no difference between Bhimplas, Karnataka Devagandhari and what is commonly referred to as Abheri. Can you believe that there are 5 versions of 1 raga out there? Yet how often do you hear a raga alapana sung as per the Dikshitar school?

Kalyanavasantham is another raga where I have heard 3 different styles (it is said that LGJ had researched it to unearth his version, the most popular one, from old manuscripts after he found that D2 had crept into it also, so there must be a 4th version of this raga with D2 as well).

We have also lost some of the original talas in which Shyama Sastri composed his compositions in -- that other day in the rhythm and laya section we were discussing the state of Triloka Maata Nannu and that's when I came to know that there are quite a few of them. Why? Most probably because some musicians couldn't handle it. In fact if you look at the sangeethapriya archives (where there are many renditions by different musicians), I have a doubt in my mind that some of the available recordings of Shyama Sastri compositions over there sound like they have been "lightened up".

And let's not get into a debate over Swati Tirunal compositions ... enough blood has been spilled in the past over it. Still, that was a time when re-tunings were still on the heavy side of things.

So what does it mean to retune a song? At least in the case of the trinity, retuning krithis from what their composers composed, (with some exceptions where efforts have been made to rediscover a lost tradition) has been only a loss for Carnatic music.

With other composers whose tunes have long been lost, there have been several genius moments in re-tuning them in current ragas, no denying. But overall there is a tendency to tune their songs "lighter", which isn't by itself an issue for the composition or the audience, but it also prevents many of them from becoming main items and being given a full manodharma treatment.

@harimau, So that was why Brinda Mukta sang Samaja Vara Gamana in what is now Varamu? And you do mean MS and MMI sang it with Chautshruti Dhaivatam, D2, right? Shuddha Dhaivatam is a D1.

Speaking of Mari Mari Ninne, do hear the Alathur Brothers rendition of it.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 20 Oct 2015, 08:16

Mari Mari Ninne - Alathur Brothers :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI7uXex7BmI

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 20 Oct 2015, 08:34

I have heard Sharanu Siddhi Vinayaka in Sourasthramam as both a bhajan and a heavy weight item by MLV and MS. Speaking of which,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXuBlTDS5-I -- this is what would belong on a filmy bhajan CD.

Then you have the Hamir Kalyani one, which is more of a proper bhajan style : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pPC9ywhm9g

And NOW you have the version of MS and MLV : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD6_iPWx2sg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odEsrCiIDbw

So it's not that they can't be re-tuned heavy (MLV has sung plenty of them as main items), but the trend, especially the modern day trend is to tune the songs so light that for CM's purposes you can't do much with it except singing them as thukkadas. I don't think that first bhajan tune would ever make it to a CM stage, if it did, the tiger trio of the jungles of CM might become man eaters and go on a rampage.

PS : I think this also gives you a good idea of where the line between CM and other genres lies. Strictly speaking, heavy CM is when you can give ample scope for manodharma.

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 20 Oct 2015, 08:40

Satish: Trying to share my limited experience for what it's worth. Take it as an unrefined student's take. I have sat in with my Hindustani Guru and had been fortunate to be an observer of composing magic as it happened when he went about (re)tuning Meera Bhajans during a Navrathri. He was partial to Malkauns, Bhairavi, Charukesi, and, Pilu.

It's really simple from the composer's point of view. They see the sahityam as a overlayer to a melodic Raga vehicle especially if there was no known or generally accepted Raga. For them, when (re)tuning lyrics, the underlying Raga reveals itself in subtle ways as they first set the Chanda layam (meter, space, and Thalam) when you read and not sing the words. This revelation process is different for each talented musician. Re Harimau's Nedunuri garu quote above of "...what moved him." This is precisely what it is. Now this revelation for even the same composer may be in several Ragas...as they play it out in Harmonium, Keyboard, Sitar, Violin, Venu, or, Venu...you get the idea: mostly in an instrument. The expression part during composing seems to be easier through the seamless flow through the fingers rather than vocal. I had thought that the composers connect and bond better through touch and feel. The instrument facilitates screening of different scalar and non scalar combinations very quickly and the most fitting Raga is then self selected. The instrument can switch between the mood or chaya created by a Raga...whereas a vocal mettu may find the transition mildly harder. I have witnessed where my Guru returned to the same sahitya on another day with another equally fitting Raga! The time of the day and my Guru's mood on that day determined that! He could embellish several equally fitting tunes to the same level of perfection by polishing. What I have gotten out of this experiment with choice of a Raga was that the Anuragam and micro and grace notes played a major role in decorating and embellishing the poet's idea. Kalpana sangeetham and improvement by letting the imagination take a free flight without inhibitions is the path...as this is not a cerebral process but an art expressing itself freely through the artist medium.

Except for legends such as the Carnatic Trinity especially Thyagaraja Swami and Muthuswamy Dikshitar who have provided wholesome definition, other Sahityam may be attempted to be (re)tuned for purposes such as Natyam....if they haven't been heard or in vogue under different patanthras.

Irrespective of the original Raga or the (re)imagined (re)tuned Raga, withstanding the duration test of time and acceptance and adaptation by the different schools are the true metrics of what survives.

Having said the above, I frequently have the challenge of waking up with a Raga and a particular sahityam and the rest of the day is spent in singing various sahitya/compositions in the same Raga! I am unable to detach and move on even if I want to!! Thus, sahityam may land in a different mettu purely by accident!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Oct 2015, 09:56

MS singing Manasuloni:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AyE7_VIlH5k

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Oct 2015, 13:19

Satishsatish Sir,

I have posted as Q & A and your feed back, is welcome.

1.What does it mean to tune a song to a different ragam?

It is taking a deviation from the established tune and ragam in the sampradaya to the tune of
Practitioner’s personal choice, for the reasons known to them, experienced and explained.

2. What is the motivation that prompts the tuning of a composition to a different ragam?

2.1. Practitioner’s deep insight of aesthetic, logic and reason in higher expressions and delivery quality.
2.2. Practitioner’s decision to offer surprise or excitement in the different ragam.
2.3. Practitioner’s decision and choice not for conforming to the patantara purity.
2.4. Practitioner’s belief that there is no authentic notated version or bani or sampradaya.
2.5. Practitioner’s belief and decision on the chosen raga for optimum delivery of his style of
rendition and its popular appeal, appreciation.

3. How customary and frequent is the practice of tuning a composition to a different ragam?
Whenever the need is felt for contemporizing but is exceptional and rare.

4. Why is it not done more frequently?
The challenge of securing the other practitioner’s and powerful opinion maker’s acceptance
and also the anxiety of rasikas appreciation and acceptance

5. What makes it challenging?
It is, if the sampradaya is well established and also popular with both the practitioners and rasikas and also if there is no karna Parampara. It is bhava ouchithyam/aptness-sahithya bhavam and raaga bhavam.

6. My understanding is that singing a song in a ragam different than what it was composed in is simply not kosher. Could I be wrong?
If sampradaya and tradition is established either in karna Parampara or written authentic text, it is kosher.

7. What then can explain why some are tuned and sung to a different ragam?
In the modern times, not kosher for extremely popular practitioner(s), popularity and patronage
continuity and remaining unaffected, professionally and personally.

8. What are other examples of artistes that tuned compositions to a different ragam?
Many great maestros and maestros have tuned to a different ragam, some of the very prominent names are Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyyengar, R.K.Srikantan, Dr.M.Balamuralikrishna and Dr.M.L.Vasanthakumari.

munirao2001

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 20 Oct 2015, 15:06

In general, kritis may be re-tuned unless there is a strong evidence that the origin composer (vaggeyakara) tuned the lyric to the particular raga.

Rest assured that there is a method being followed and it is not some "seat-of-the-pants" innovation.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Oct 2015, 18:05

Shankar Vaidyanathan Sir,

this is not a cerebral process

.
No Sir. It is cerebral, intellectual process with lakshya and lakshana knowledge. In exceptional cases, only lakshya knowledge and technique. Every tune smith will have a set of ragas as their favorites. First urge will be to set tune in one of their favorites. The analysis of the original tune occurred with the flow of the sahithya bhavam can result in re considering and trying other ragas. The melodic treatment to be given will determine the choice of the laya and the tala. Very rarely the rhythmic inspiration will result in selecting the raga/scale most suited for the choice of rhythm/laya/tala. Tune smith may also have to meet the demand/request and sets the tune within the scope of such choice of raga/rhythm/tala.
For e.g. Sri Nedanuri Krishnamurthy garu's one of the most favorite raga was 'Khamas' and he set to tune 20 compositions of Annamacharya, with variants and ornamentation.
It is all cerebral/intellectual.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Oct 2015, 18:39

Tuning 'Light' and 'Heavy'?
Tune smiths have to meet two challenges. One, composition in Bhajana/Namasankirtana sampradaya and the second, lyric not in Bhajana/Namasankirtana sampradaya. Tune smith tuning the composition in Bhajana/Namasankirtana will imagine and create based on the melodic treatment conforming to the aesthetic in art form of music, with potential for niraval and svarakalpana, deconstructing. Lyric not in Bhajana/Namasankirtana sampradaya gives the tune smith freedom for higher levels of imagination, discovery and construction.
Tune smith with compulsion to follow the current trend makes the decision to keep it 'light' or 'heavy'. Light and Heavy are also partly technical and partly subjective. For e.g. MLV Amma's and KVN Mama's 'Poga Diralo Ranga'-Sankarabharana-Purandara Dasa. MLV's rendition is 'light' in comparison with KVN's rendition. The current trend favors plain note singing more over kampita and also does not exclude the 'heavy' compositions to meet the requirements of the rasikas. In many renditions, the demarcation between two genres discussed above are very narrow or thin. Slant towards Bhajana/Namasankirtana or film composition receives highest appreciation of the rasikas. Tune smith ideal of pamara ranjakatvam will result in 'light' tunes and his ideal of pandita pamara ranjakatvam will result in 'Light' to Medium 'Heavy' and his ideal of pandita ranjakatvam will result in 'Heavy'.

munirao2001

satishsatish · Post by **satishsatish** » 20 Oct 2015, 19:14

They say: Ask the Universe your question and it would respond to you.
In matters Carnatic and musical that Universe is none other than this rasikas.org. Proof being in the form of questions I've asked in the past, and more recently this current one, that was answered by many and in ways that inform, clarify and, importantly, foster my interest and growth in Carnatic music.

Your comments have provided me directions to explore, composers and compositions and artistes to focus on...
MLV Amma's and KVN Mama's 'Poga Diralo Ranga'-Sankarabharana-Purandara Dasa
Sharanu Siddhi Vinayaka in Sourasthramam as both a bhajan and a heavy weight item by MLV and MS
Hamir Kalyani one, in bhajan style and then the versions of MS and MLV
Mari Mari Ninne - Alathur Brothers
MS, MMI renditions of Manasuloni with Suddha Dhaivatham and in Hindolam, Malkauns rendition in Varamu, Papanasam Sivan's Thunai Purindharul for the original tune of Manasuloni
compositions of Sri purandara dAsaru, annamAcArya, nArAyaNa tIrtha, bhArati in different ragas
yArO ivar yArO, or kaNDEn kaNDEn kaNDEn sItayai in different rAgas
Geetha Govindam, Abhangs...

I'm sure I missed some of the other responses but no worries, I've filed away your responses to chip away at them in time and will through all of the references! I can't wait to get started.

With gratitude and appreciation, thank you all!

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 20 Oct 2015, 19:59

Vaggeyakaaras' kritis normally are not tampered with. The 'free for all' comes in for compositions without any prescription of raga & taala as in the case of ashtapadi, abhang etc. Pitamaha Semmangudi pleaded that even in such cases the person who first gave a varnamettu must be honoured by NOT tampering with it. He saw with dismay the Sadaasiva Brahmendra kritis tuned by him superbly in carnatic ragas hijacked to various genres to such extent his tunes were largely forgotten or sidelined. Vaaggeyakaaras who 'ruled their times' like Muthiah bhagavatar could not be 'touched' - their kritis got well 'cemented'.
There was /is nobody to listen to what Semmangudi 'talked'! And we claim to respect the greats!

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 20 Oct 2015, 20:25

Sri Munirao: What I meant by "...not cerebral process..." was that the musical genius transcends the intellectual plane. Of course all the greats were well trained and well learned their art but composing goes much beyond that.

Re melodic expression finding Laya/Tall, yes, I agree as well, but, I have seen this reversed is what I want to say. As you say, may be for heavier treatment the melodic first and lighter fare Laya/Tall first...I am perfectly aware that we can explore music without the bounds of rhythm. But the Sur, Laya, and Tall are all there and self evident to the seeker.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Oct 2015, 20:55

The one thing we can gather from all the above illuminating posts is that it's wise not to change the rAgAs which are specified by the composers--even what there is a mere mention of the rAgA.

Bharathi did indicate in some of his songs his choice, but they have not been adhered to always.

On a personal note--the mood of the song goes with the rAgA in which it was first sung, the way it flowed out of the composer. So, even if one may think another rAgA will be better (may be true too), the composer has had the say. There may be incidents when he himself, on revisiting the song changed the rAgA

priyaram78 · Post by **priyaram78** » 21 Oct 2015, 10:53

" Bharathi did indicate in some of his songs his choice, but they have not been adhered to always."

Yes. This is my personal opinion. Some songs are meant to be in a particular Raagam only. That Raagam does full justice to the lyrics as well as the sublime divine mood of the composer. If that same song is sung in some other Raagam the whole solemnity of the song gets sullied. There are songs of Mahakavi which seem perfect in a particular raagam. I love Yadhumagi Nindrai KAli in Pantuvarali and it has been sung so well by a Carnatic musician who has sung it with so much depth and solemnity that it captures the emotions and mood of the Mahakavi completely. But when I heard another musician sing it in a different happy version, I did not know whether to listen to it fully or just shut down the laptop. I don't know if all feel the same, but some songs seem perfect in one particular raagam only. So it is better there is a consensus which Raagam suits the song. Even Kaakai Chiraginile Nandalaalaa has been sung in so many different raagams, some which may not do full justice to the song at all ! Infact musicians, sing so differently, even a song of a particular raagam decided by the composer. for eg. Aadaadhu Asangaadhu Vaa Kanna of Sri Venkatakavi in Madhyamavathi is usually sung in a particular way. But one musician sang it so fast and differently ( Pardon my ignorance of the technical terms) that the beauty of the song was completely lost. If I am not wrong, musicians come from different schools with different styles of singing but I feel many a times a different way of singing a kriti just cannot be enjoyed. Rasikas, especially are left wondering whether to be happy that the song has been chosen or to feel disappointed with the manner it was sung. No two musicians have the same voice, so having a long pause, stretching a phrase or singing a song differently just to look different can be avoided. Rasikas I am sure would love to listen to a song sung in the same way by different musicians in their unique voice.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 21 Oct 2015, 15:42

My understanding is that singing a song in a ragam different than what it was composed in is simply not kosher. Could I be wrong?

YES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_XpbmWm0NI

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 21 Oct 2015, 17:21

Sivaramakrishnan wrote:

Pitamaha Semmangudi pleaded that even in such cases the person who first gave a varnamettu must be honoured by NOT tampering with it.

If this is true, why did he change the tune of bhAvayAmi raghurAmam from the original sAvEri to a rAgamAlikA>

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 21 Oct 2015, 17:35

A theory that my wife has is that the first time we hear anything in a given Raga, Padantharam, and renditional style, it leaves such an indelible mark in our sub consciousness that we have ingrained resistance to accept anything non-conforming or deviant!

I seek authentic renditions by Masters to see how they interpreted the sahityam within the same Raga. MDR is a frequent golden standard for me.

I have a follow up for Arasi Madam.

I hear "Chandiran OLiyil" by Bharathi in three different Ragas: Chandrakauns; Keeravani, and Malayamarutham. I don't know whether Bharathi set the tune in a Raga. Yet, when I come upon the Anupallavi "Indiriyangalai Vendru Vitten" and the first Charanam "Payan ENNamal UZhaikka SonnaL"...I end up searching for a fitting Raga and melodic expression. The three Ragas I have heard each have their own strength but not wholly satisfying to my aesthetic sense in trying to do justice to what Bharathi might have imagined. Then comes even a bigger challenge: the second Charanam seems to have been added at a later time (?) and it may be better served by a Ragamalika.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 21 Oct 2015, 17:56

@Sivaramakrishnan, Is the original tune still extant? Or was it around and being sung at that time? A lot of re-tunings have happened because the original tunes have faded into obscurity.

priyaram78 · Post by **priyaram78** » 21 Oct 2015, 18:03

" A theory that my wife has is that the first time we hear anything in a given Raga, Padantharam, and renditional style, it leaves such an indelible mark in our sub consciousness that we have ingrained resistance to accept anything non-conforming or deviant!"

It maybe true to some extent but there have been instances when we find we dont like a song in the first instance but when we find the same song rendered subsequenly in a different Ragam we love it . The lyrics, the emotions, and devotional feelings of the composer towards the deity everything has to be conveyed by that Raagam.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 22 Oct 2015, 06:20

Checkout the the 2-CD album Pramanam by Dr. R. Vedavalli.

You will see a partial list of songs that have been mangled by Carnatic musicians and their original patantaram.

http://www.kalakendra.com/pramanam-rved ... -2208.html

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 22 Oct 2015, 07:23

While the world keeps swwoning at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh1m1VoMoAA

It must have taken creative bursts to retune like this
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/x9hw0bd ... a_Dasa.mp3

Fervour it boils down to.
The Abhang angle will never be understood unless one gives acceptance to , say an instance of a man in religious trance stomping on his own child .
Abhang ..The Road Roller
The kriti ...

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 22 Oct 2015, 07:42

Varsha avare,

Beautiful! I have not heard this before - Thanks for yet another gem from Vidushi Sukanya Prabhakar!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 22 Oct 2015, 07:46

ranjimpa jEseDu rAgambulu
manjuLamagunavatAramuletti
manjIaramu ghallani naTincu
mahima teliyu tyAgarAja nutuDagu (SrIpa priya)

SrIpa priya - rAga aThANa - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... -raga.html

One of the latest (mundane?) examples from FB (sorry for the concept - if it is not to the liking of someone - kindly switch off the audio)

https://www.facebook.com/siva.sjsiva/vi ... 231744998/

Art is a concept - it can be repackaged, no doubt. But it cannot be reproduced in the manner in which the artist originally conceived. I remember the dialogue in the film Sankarabharanam wherein Sankara Sastry explains as to how one word 'ammA' can take different shapes depending on the occasion. The combination of occasion and the word are inseparable.

gaNa nAthu sEya kOra kaDu vAnaruDai tirigE - பிள்ளையார் பிடிக்கக் குரங்கானதே -

evarito nE - mAnavati - http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.in ... lpudu.html

Tuning of 'nAnATi batuku' (annamayya) is an example of understanding the occasion and choosing a swara pattern to suit the occasion.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 22 Oct 2015, 08:27

sreeni
thanks . I picked that track , drowned as I was , in misery , about the state and fate of inferior Karnataka singers

This to my understanding , is a great piece of tuning . Replete with instances of aesthetic contributions that can originate only from an understanding of CM(KM) . Feel free to ask for more . This was of two decades vintage .
Listem to another gem , tuned by Voleti

Sri Voleti Venkateswarlu has been inspired by his intimate knowledge of Hindusthani music so he chose to set some songs in Hindusthani ragas.

The inspiration
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/uadjnxb ... _Bawra.mp3
The result
http://www.mediafire.com/listen/ztt9uuz ... -_Desi.mp3

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 22 Oct 2015, 16:20

Lakshman, to your 'star question' as to why Semmangudi change the tune of bhAvayAmi raghurAmam from the original sAvEri to a rAgamAlikA, I must say that he was more than qualified to bring about certain 'changes' in view of his singular role in 'standardising' many ST kritis. Singing the entire kriti in Saveri cud be monotonous and the Ragamalika package has been quite appropriate. (Nobody seems to have heard the pure Saveri version-I had consulted many seniors too)

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 22 Oct 2015, 19:00

The Bhavayami is entire Ramayanam told in appropriate stanzas in sync with the various Kaandams of the great epic. Semmangudi thought that in future, just like we have the practice of singing only one charanam for many songs, musicians will opt to sing only one charanam of this great song and thereby mutilate the Ramayanam. Hence with his great insight and vidwat he tuned this into a most attractive Ragamalika with the chittaswarams. It remains unparallel to this date.

To my knowledge also, I have never heard anybody singing this in Saveri.
An anecdote I read two decades back. One now popular musician (everybody can guess the musician) remarked that SSI choice of ragams are not appropriate for Bhavayami. It would have been better if it is retuned by Balamurali. To this one old connoisseur remarked. God I do not want to live to hear such abberations.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Oct 2015, 19:10

CRama,
I don't know. sAvEri with all its emotive quality would not have been that effective all through, considering the number of verses in the song. An instance which perhaps says that there are exceptions to the rule. Moreover, here's an inspired piece of tuning on SSI's part, at least as I see it.

Another instance comes to mind of Bharathi's verses. The rAgA he had in mind for 'villinai oththa puruvam' was punnAga varALi. VVSadagopan popularized it by singing it like a kAvaDi chindu. It's very appealing and also captures the spirit of the composition. VVS sang a few other compositions of Bharathi in rAgAs that the poet had specified (suTTum vizhi in chenchuruTTi for instance, but making the rest of the verses into a rAga mAlikA).

thIrthak karaiyinilE, with many verses lent itself to a rAgamAlikA, so he changed it. kaNNan mana nilai too. .

Another reason for the changes was that he gave an all Bharathi concert in the late forties, the first of its kind. True to the concert tradition, the cachEri needed a rAgamAlikA or two

The one condition for a change in rAgAs, it seems too me, is that the tune smith is able to feel the pulse of the emotion of the song and is capable of it to musically craft it as well. VVS's tuning of Ambujam Krishna's first fifty one songs (Geetha Mala Vol:1) is ample evidence to his capabilities in doing that.

Priya,
Yet, like you, I would go with you in not wanting to mess around with the original intent of the composer. But who knows? BhArathi himself might have said 'balE pANDiyA!' to some of the new versions

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 22 Oct 2015, 19:17

arasi wrote:CRama,

Another instance comes to mind of Bharathi's verses. The rAgA he had in mind for 'villinai oththa puruvam' was punnAga varALi. VVSadagopan popularized it by singing it like a kAvaDi chindu. It's very appealing and also captures the spirit of the composition.

Nice that you quoted this instance. Here I will say something further. This song is my ever favourite song. I do not know that Bharathiar indicated Punnagavarali for this. I have heard this Kavadichindu only. But subsequently there is one MS LP record of Bharathiar songs (released in 80s)- which is the only one record I am not happy with and I do not have it. This particular song is retuned in that record to some obscure Hindustani raga which I can never like.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 22 Oct 2015, 22:13

M.S has sung it in paTdIp rAgA. It can be heard here:
http://mio.to/album/MS.+Subbulakshmi/Bharathi+Songs+1

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 22 Oct 2015, 22:46

How will a Kavadichindu fit in Patdeep?

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 22 Oct 2015, 22:51

Another Bharatiyar song endaiyum tAyum was sung in paTdIp by DKP>

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 22 Oct 2015, 23:15

The Mysore disease? Harimau, you could have come with a better word for sure!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Oct 2015, 01:18

Ramakriya,
Though Harimau is up to date with many things, he has not seen (let alone heard) vol: 5 of my compositions sung by Gayathri Girish. She sings a paTdip song in that

Lakshman,
MS's singing villinai otha puruvam in paTdIp is lovely too. It's interesting to note that Bharathi has put down the rAgA as punnAgavarALi for it. VVS chooses verses to jive with a kAvaDi chindu. The feats of murugA described in the lines that are in paTdIp are of a different texture, and it does suit the content, it seems. The master tuner KallaDaikuRichi's work, no doubt.

CRama,
What do you think? If paTdIp is as alien as Harimau makes it out to be, how did behAg, bhAgESri (oh dear!), jOnpuri and Sindhubhairavi somehow get in--while he was on guard duty?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 23 Oct 2015, 01:31

CRama & others: The correct ragam for villinai otha puruvam is vElAvaLi, which is equivalent to gowrimanOhari (gowrivElAvaLi in the Dikshitar sampradayam). The reason for this is because of the motif of the composition being "vElavA".

While there is some resemblance to paTdip because of its intrinsic similarities to gowrimanOhari, it would be a stretch to call MSS's version hindustAni (IMHO). And besides the kAvadi chindu gait is very much present in this composition.

I encourage all of you to listen to this tune again with this in mind and all you will hear is an unorthodox yet folksy gowrimanOhari. And to me that captures Bharathi's spirit just as much as VVS's version.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Oct 2015, 01:40

A...h! vELAvaLi it is! I thought a very vaLLi-esque paTdIp it was! Does the cover say vELAvaLi?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Oct 2015, 01:58

Arasi - No one will know if Bharati's description of vaLLi was right, but we can all bear testimony that it certainly applies to Smt. MSS: 'sollinai tEnil kuzhaitturaippAL' whether it be in paTdIp, vElAvali, or anything else!!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 23 Oct 2015, 02:29

arasi wrote:A...h! vELAvaLi it is! I thought a very vaLLi-esque paTdIp it was! Does the cover say vELAvaLi?

The cover doesn't say much. I vividly remember the original LP from the '80s.

Looks like CRama and I had the same opinion about that album from ~three years ago (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19976)
And since then I have keenly listened to the VVS version as well!

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 23 Oct 2015, 08:27

arasi. I am no way equal to Harimau for his knowledge or his attitude. I do not dislike Hindustani ragams nor Patdeep. There was one Malayalam devotional song Krishna Hare Jaya I heard in 1960s sung by P.Leela in Patdeep which is lovely. That was my first exposure to this ragam. Then there is a ST bhajan tuned in Patdeep Krishna Chandra Radha which also is familiar to me. But having very much fascinated by Kavadichindu format in Villinai Otha from 1960s, I cannot enjoy any other tune.

That Bharatiyar Songs Vol 1- is not a success as the other releases of MS. It was announced that there will be three volumes. But after Vol 1, the scheme was shelved- probably to make way for Pancharathnamala- I am not sure about this. I purchased this cassette, felt disappointed and gave it to somebody. Since then I have not heard that cassette or the songs. I distinctly remember Kalamam vanathil- a Kavadichindu in a lilting Anandabhairavi in that cassette. Hence I used the acronym obscure for Patdeep- not any dislike for that ragam.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 23 Oct 2015, 09:49

CRama wrote:
That Bharatiyar Songs Vol 1- is not a success as the other releases of MS. It was announced that there will be three volumes. But after Vol 1, the scheme was shelved- probably to make way for Pancharathnamala- I am not sure about this. I purchased this cassette, felt disappointed and gave it to somebody. Since then I have not heard that cassette or the songs.

Again, this is not true about the history of the recordings. They were made much after the series of Balaji Pancharatnamalas which were made for TTD. This particular recording was made at the request of Dr. SS. Badrinath as a fund raiser for Sankara Netralaya.

I purchased this cassette, felt disappointed and gave it to somebody. Since then I have not heard that cassette or the songs.

Well, I think the loss is yours. The version of kaRpaga vinAyaka and even the version of vande mAtaram is absolutely superb. And incidentally Kalamam vanathil from that album is not in Ananda bhairavi, but in Chenjurutti.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 23 Oct 2015, 10:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC1Vm45zp1E
Ustad Bahauddin Dagar, Raag Patdeep Part 1
CRama . You may like this . If you like this you should also like a 105 mt essay by Nikhil Bannerji , on youtube

priyaram78 · Post by **priyaram78** » 23 Oct 2015, 12:02

arasi wrote:
Priya,
Yet, like you, I would go with you in not wanting to mess around with the original intent of the composer. But who knows? BhArathi himself might have said 'balE pANDiyA!' to some of the new versions

Yes ofcourse Arasi Madam. Mahakavi was a person in love with everything because He saw his Nandalala in everything. Liking a song is based on
Many factors. Personally I have heard some versions of Kaakai Siraginile. All are good. If you get a rendition of this lovely song in kamAs raagam please send me. This Ragam or any related ragam or a ragam with the same feel would make this song a pleasure for me. The Shringara rasa in kamAs is what comes to my mind reading the lyrics. this song kaakai siraginile is so beautiful I am waiting for that perfect Ragam for me to feel bliss !

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 23 Oct 2015, 12:25

Sivaramakrishnan Sir,

this is less about re-tuning to a different raagam, than resetting of some Svati Tirunal kritis...

I have only heard it said once that the Alathur Brothers sang Bhaavayaami very early on in all-Saveri, but dropped it after the Semmangudi retuning started getting popular. No confirmation of this elsewhere. I did however hear the old varnamettu -- opening line only. To my impatient ears back then (late 80s), it did not seem very different from the current version, but the person who sang it also said that he himself was overcome by the stamp of the new version ! It was in Adi tala though, if I remember right.

He -- Prof. Y.Sitaraman -- grew up in Trivandrum all along and was a direct witness to all the changes taking place from the 40s through the early 80s -- with the kritis, the changing relationships and the palace official intrigues, the sidelining of Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar, the ascendancy of the Semmangudi-KSN coterie with one of the palace official's (?) son rising later to be a key disciple, and their increasing claims to the guardianship of these kritis. At least that was his view of things.

But strictly on the music side, there were many well-known musicians who he interacted with closely including Prof.S.Ramanathan, Voleti, DKJ, Srikantan, R.Venkataraman (veena), K.S.Gopalakrishnan (Flute) etc and earlier still the great GN himself (when he was doing his Math PhD in Madras in the early 60s) -- some of them picked up certain Svati Tirunal kritis from him and his uncle Narasinganallur Narayana Bhagavatar who was a storehouse of Svati Tirunal and Dikshitar kritis.

[Jayalakshmi Santhanam maami told me on her first trip to the US in the early 90s, that she learnt music from NNB as a young girl in Trivandrum and learnt a lot more Dikshitar/Svati Tirunal kritis first, and Tyagarajaswami kritis only much later.]

NNB was an early direct disciple of Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar, many years senior to Madurai Mani Iyer, but a few years younger than C.S.Sankarasivam. HMB's tamburas were kept in their home in Trivandrum for a long time. He knew first-hand the Maharani's request to HMB to tune a bunch of ST compositions for which even raga markings were absent. This was not like other compositions for which either there were raga/tala markings or some rudimentary notation available or a Mullamoodu Bhagavatar version readily available.

Apparently, HMB pushed back first on tuning this set of kritis, but due to her insistence set them later in ragas of his choosing. Prof.Y.Sitaraman told me that Sri Kumaara Nagaraalaye and several other kritis emerged in this period... I didn't note or record all that he said back then, but apart from these he demonstrated ST's rAsavilAsa, ratnakanchuka dhArinI (HMB) etc. Prof.Y.Sitaraman also demonstrated the original Mullamoodu Bhagavatars' version of Mandara Dhara in Todi and the way it was reset later.

-Srini.

ps; As an aside, it was obvious from reading all the articles on Svati Tirunal in Sruti magazine in the 80s/90s that the Sruti magazine editors were reasonably innocent of many details, with their Madras-centric sources and limited research elsewhere. Plus it had also gotten very political with all kinds of retired Brigadiers, royalists and others entering the fray to battle the feisty Balachander and his views even after he was long gone !

Sitting here in a remote town in Kentucky, USA, was at least as authentic a source as any other who could have shed light on the resetting of many specific kritis !

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 23 Oct 2015, 13:27

Harimau gAru,

just a comment -- Rallapalle Anantakrishna Sarma gAru is primus inter pares when it comes to tuning Annamacharya compositions, in many ways ahead of the Pani school musicians, Balamurali etc.

A great literatteur and careful/scholarly musician (disciple of Bidaram Krishnappa since his teens), RAS was involved from 1937 onwards with Annamacharya's compositions. He picked up on the work of Veturi Prabhakara Sastry which had been entirely literary -- editing/publishing the compositions from copper plates -- and set 87 compositions to music in Vol I of the Tallapaka Annamayya Paatalu published in 1952 -- there is a recent Music Academy Journal where a translation of RAS' Telugu foreword to this volume is published. In his own understated yet firm way, he has articulated the methodology he followed in setting these compositions to music.

The classic "brahma kaDigina pAdamu" (navanItam in Garimella Balakrishna Prasad's voice), "alarulu guriyaga" in Shankarabharanam, "sahaja vaiSNavAcAra" in sAmanta are all his varNameTTus, if I am not mistaken. Not sure if the dEs'ya sULAdi "anagatarE" is also his. When Prof.SRJ was here in the early 90s, he gave a couple of lec-dems on the subject and remarked on the yeoman service rendered first and foremost by Rallapalle gAru to Annamacharya's compositions !

-Srini.

ps: You mention mukhAri wrt "nAnATi bratuku nATakamu" -- I heard Balamurali gAru's version in Mukhari a long while ago... it is very beautiful and has a very rustic/folksy/dry but not dreary ring to it... you could almost imagine a jangama singing it with a ektAra walking through Ralla Seema.

Very different from the beautiful & moving, yet heavy air that Revati imparts to it. I have a feeling that Revati was chosen for its "Bairaagi Bhairav" connotation which too accords with the mood of the song !

CRama · Post by **CRama** » 23 Oct 2015, 17:51

Mahavishnu. You said Kalamam vanathil is in Chenjuruti. I do not dispute. Because I heard it only once - before thirty five years, it has not stayed with me. But the same song MS Amma has sung in Anandabhairavi in a radio concert which is etched in my memory.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 23 Oct 2015, 18:56

I remember to have heard 'kaalamaam vanatthil' from T K Govinda Rao and also from K S Narayanaswamy (Veena) in Misra Chaapu taala.
mahavishnu / CRama to kindly confirm the taala of this kaavadi chindu.