Another snippet from Sruthi Blog

[shankarank]

Or the apaSruthi blog?

The problem with most of the Carnatic music festivals in the US is that they tend to be replicas of typical Mylapore kutcheris and vizhas, even our own reality shows transplanted abroad. How much of an effort has been made and how difficult it is to attract Westerners to take a serious interest in our music is not something we know, but the overall impact of all these decades of hard work has been one of cultural ghettoisation, to go by the accounts of regular visitors.

I can't believe TMKism has entered into commentary of one of the prestigious music magazines! And these people are the legacy of MSS/Sadasivam family huh?

The Indian musicians have taken lot of efforts to outreach and have taught in universities - we all know. Yet still for whatever reason the metaphysics of Indian music - that sound is of divine origin - is not something that westerners can accept. It is evident that majority of participants ( I would think almost all - but let me give some benefit of doubt there) in various competitions have been initiated at young age when they are close to that divinity - don't think they will entertain the idea of such a music anywhere into their teens for the first time.

Western institutions still classify other genres as ethno-music - so it belongs to an ethnicity - whilst western music is music!

It has only been a decade that an American born to Indian origin parents who worked as a political operative was addressed with a sub-altern pejorative : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaca_(term) . May be the reason we have Trump now - as that Senate candidate who lost because of that remark was a potential presidential material based on commentary in right wing talk radio at that time!

So deep down in the power structures they have a view of the "other" people!

Sruti magazine should mend its own back yard - tending to the wounds caused by the previous gen artistes - now that some young girls are getting up on the side of layam - will they? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AksJWpPxL-U

[Sachi_R]

Shankarank,
good topic pick!

You have partly explained the reason for the "ethno" tag and the Mylaporisation of Carnatic music festivals in US, by saying this line:

Yet still for whatever reason the metaphysics of Indian music - that sound is of divine origin - is not something that westerners can accept.

I have found, among all my friends and relatives living in the USA, a mix of three reasons for pursuing Carnatic music and/or Bharatanatyam:
1. A career option for a well-trained dancer and/or musician who has relocated to USA, to teach and perform and network and earn through their art.
2. A love for the art, born back at home, and accentuated by a sense of deprivation in an alien environment (a cultural/social environment the person finds it difficult or unattractive to adapt to.)
3. A feeling that the person and/or person's children should not miss out on our Indian cultural roots.

All these factors will drive such festivals towards "for Indians, by Indians, of Indians". Let me go further. Most Indians I know have 90% of all their social and cultural activities in the company of fellow-Indians, who are either colleagues, relatives, or friends. And most of their holidays are spent connecting with India or with the same crowd. In other words, the Indian-ness is very strong.

AND surely I don't think it is a bad thing at all! But it perhaps explains why there is no osmosis of whites into Indian festivals and why we see Mylaporisation. Unless even those white people have cultural or economic reasons to hobnob with the Mylapore crowd.

[Nick H]

The problem with most of the Carnatic music festivals in the US is that they tend to be replicas of typical Mylapore kutcheris and vizhas ... ... ...

I can't believe TMKism has entered into commentary of one of the prestigious music magazines! And these people are the legacy of MSS/Sadasivam family huh? ... ... ...

As is often the case, it is hard to get to grips with exactly what you are trying to say.

Do you mean that it isn't a problem? And if so, do you mean to say that it isn't a problem because people are gathering to do their cultural thing, as is their right, and that's fine, or do you mean that it isn't a problem because it doesn't happen?

If the latter... I know London, I don't know USA. I know that I don't exactly see a "mixed" audience in the photos from Cleveland, and I know that BVB in London makes no effort whatsoever, even when it is free, to advertise its concerts and events outside of those who know about it anyway (when I last looked. I'd be surprised if it has changed). Damn: it took me 20 years to discover the place. Does Cleveland? Do the other groups who invite and present Carnatic musicians?

And do they need to? If it is not a problem because people are gathering to do their cultural thing, as is their right... no they don't.

But it is a shame that others don't get invited to the party, because, of course, Carnatic music is a wonderful party.

I can assure you it is nothing to do with any of that Abrahamic nonsense. Go our on your street and, selecting your Abrahamics, ask them if they have heard of, listened, to, enjoyed, Ravi Shankar. Now ask about M S Gopalakrishnan. You've been there long enough: you should know how this survey is going to pan out.

But you may continue to be somewhat confused as to the reasons.


PS... If Abrahamic is a word, how about Mosaic?

[arasi]

With all the genuine music and the 'maDi' that Mylapore generates...
Are all the neighborhood kids congregated in its music music halls
Listening to tODi pallavis and tEvArap paNs? And their parents?
Or, are they busy listening to Beethoven in their own homes?

Come, come!

Now, given CM's nature, it's cultivated taste, even for the locals--
Where else but in North America do you see such zeal for the same?
Still an uphill climb for it to flourish, the fate of all classical music---
Where else, artistes swarm like bees from across the seas? Think!

Here, in part, musical forms of the east and west blend judiciously--
Classical, jazz, knitting with karnATaka sampradAya gAnam, we see--
As for a mix in the audience, here too, a Nick here, a Dominic there!
The kids love their time with CM, but not all, as in Mylapore, true!

Politics spare us not, envy and egos, pray, all universal!
As in human history, we wag our tongues but art goes on,
Uphill, downhill, barely existing or flourishing--like human race--
Cherish or discard as you please--yet life's short and art's forever

[shankarank]

ask them if they have heard of, listened, to, enjoyed, Ravi Shankar. Now ask about M S Gopalakrishnan

Now you cannot take just the numbers as they are. For the sake of discussion lets slightly modify the question - substitute Bhimsen Joshi instead of MSG. If the underlying musical content has appealed to those who would know Ravi Shankar by name - then they must have proceeded to find out more about the music and know few more names there as well. The truth is - on the one hand Ravi Shankar became brand ambassador pushed by the foreign poilcy establishment - on the other side the metallic string has that sound appeal. Bhim Sen may have his own followers - but even 10% of Ravi Shankar will not flow to Bhim Sen.

Same reason as why Ghatam gets an applause and mridangam doesn't in the same concert ( THV himself has admitted to it) - and it has nothing to do with whether the audience appreciated the aesthetics of Rhythm in that particular genre. Ghatam's popularity should have translated into 10% popularity of other instruments - no it is just the one time attraction. And definitely the requirement of knowing Rhythmic CM grammar cannot be the reason!! So many of us don't!

So far we are talking about people in general being reached by Advertisements.

My response ( regarding sound being divine) is to Sruti's question asked in a certain context

how difficult it is to attract Westerners to take a serious interest in our music

- where they don't mean popular appeal - but appeal to certain captive westerners already within reach.

Cleveland when it had it's 4 day festival used to get it's Tie / Suit 3 piece audience on the ticketed Sunday for the dance! Where none of us use to go. Completely different audience. You think they have not heard about the previous 2 days??

So the problems are : The optics is not right. It is the tyAgaraja and the Bhakti theme - which only a certain segment can relate to. Or the cultural Ghetto attitude of CM community. Oh well if we were to really advertize and get some other people into the Audience - we don't package it to their liking! We can go on and on!.

If CM techniques ( properly packaged) and their appeal have to be measured - it is already a success - you can cite Ravi Shankar as example ( why not - if he popularized HM then include CM also - big deal ). Or even in India outside the Mylapore ghettos ( and outside the replica Mylaporicas in the US) CM is very popular in that the techniques are already in Ilayaraja/Rehman/SPB/Yesudas the light version. Yay lets declare victory.

What is the problem then?? I guess Sruti magazine has a Ghetto problem - its definition of CM is very Ghetto!

[uday_shankar]

Yet still for whatever reason the metaphysics of Indian music - that sound is of divine origin - is not something that westerners can accept.

Assuming this is the deep, far reaching thesis that explains why very very few non-ethnic south Indian comes to Carnatic katcheris in North America, it doesn't explain why the situation can be expected to be be pretty much identical for a Carnatic festival held in say...Jalandhar, Jaisalmer, Gorakhpur, Nagpur, Bhilai, Bokaro or Burdwan... Certainly the local folks are dyed in the wool "shastriya sangeet flowed directly from the vedas around the same time that Bhagiratha unlocked the Ganga from Shivji's matted locks" folks.

[Nick H]

Overarching argument covering all "classical," serious, art and music forms: they are a minority interest. It is even the difference between serious rock and pop music.

Truth of Carnatic music audiences in Southern India and, people tell me, Northern America: it is a minority interest of a minority of a minority community. Doesn't look exactly encouraging for the numbers, eh?

And this is the hard reality, bottom line, whenever we look at Carnatic music and bums on seats.

We have talked about what makes Western audiences applaud. That they do so for a quick dose of tabla tikka makes me cringe a bit, but the answer to that is that I'm a culture snob who knows just 1% more than they do . Are their souls immune to the true feeling of carnatic music? Exclude those that plain do not like it and those who do not have the interest and attention span for serious art of any kind, and the answer is a resounding no!

But the ridiculous truth, in these days of World Music is that, by and large, nobody told them about it. Why else does the world (peak tourist season) pass through Chennai, every December, mostly without even knowing there is music season happening? Out of the modest number of non-Indian-origin foreigners passing through that I have taken to concerts, I don't think I have ever had a get-me-out-of-here failure, and I have certainly seen some soul-touched eyes.

But, if it (the NA Carnatic festival thing) is just for ex-mylaporeans who want to feel at home, then we are back to the problem... not being a problem.

[rshankar]

PS... If Abrahamic is a word, how about Mosaic?

Nick, if you meant mosaic, then, isn't that what we are? A mosaic of different ideas, ideologies, tastes etc.?
Now, if you meant Mosic, maybe that is how Music came about - something we all profess to be interested in!

[shankarank]

Yet still for whatever reason the metaphysics of Indian music - that sound is of divine origin - is not something that westerners can accept.

Assuming this is the deep, far reaching thesis that explains why very very few non-ethnic south Indian comes to Carnatic katcheris in North America, it doesn't explain why the situation can be expected to be be pretty much identical for a Carnatic festival held in say...Jalandhar, Jaisalmer, Gorakhpur, Nagpur, Bhilai, Bokaro or Burdwan... Certainly the local folks are dyed in the wool "shastriya sangeet flowed directly from the vedas around the same time that Bhagiratha unlocked the Ganga from Shivji's matted locks" folks.

Good question. Don't know if any raised it before this. But somehow the question about westerners has come up. The answer to this in the SMAG wisdom itself - all of those places are ghettos - I mean not filled with artful / aesthetic connoisseurs as might be in the west. That is why the SMAG blogger editor found it important to raise his question about westerners. Because as people whose remote ancestors made it to all over the world - they are expected to be open to all kinds of appreciation for native cultures. It is just the fault of the ghettoers that these people of taste never turn up for what is billed to be aesthetically rich art. Yeah I am not sure how many "kars" make it to Shanmugananda hall either - nobody did a "kar" count. It was all from the Matunga ghetto! That is my rhetorical answer to your rhetorical question.

Now the real answer : each of those ghettos which may not turn up to CM has it's own version of Music from the divine sound - get it? Including their version of Bhajans, Ghazals and may be HM!

In fact from many of those ghettos including the Maarathi Ghetto, music made to Mylapore Ghetto through an arduous process. We welcome abhangs, Annamacharya from Andhra, Dasas from karnataka and Swathi from down south, tamizhisai although the last two somewhat acrimoniously, HM musicians too spottily have crossed our ghettos sometimes selling out. Bhajans, Ghazals and what not. Including fusion etc. Not that every ghetto dweller goes to every one of these - but by and large the community support from (inside or outside) the so called ghetto, depending how you draw the boundaries of this ghetto is there! If Ravikiran brings an OVK we jump on to it and hold sapataratna aradhanas. All of this because, I think the sound is divine! And if we include Ilayaraja, Michael Jackson - you would never see a more cosmopolitan musical environment anywhere in the world. Get it?

Every musician from kerala, Andhra have surrendered to the power of this Ghetto , including the mighty Dr BMK and the popular U Srinivas. There is a real Ghetto like place the Thyagaraja Vidvat samajam - in the hidden bylanes of Madhava perumal temple - where once the organizer noted the generous fund raise from Dr BMK by giving concerts on DD. Still the real ghetto-ghettoers will not count him as a classical musician - but still he was able to live and get by in that Ghetto! And many more musicians even till recently openly admitting the Ghetto as the career launch!

So much diversity yeah - and we are called a ghetto that has replicas everywhere! Does this even make sense to you?

Only a liberal nit-wit outsider educated in a journalism school of JNU variety will ever ask such a question or say such a thing. Bringing in his own definition of inclusion from some corporate sensitivity training material in the west. It seems we have anti-cultural elements inside too!

Are their souls immune to the true feeling of carnatic music? Exclude those that plain do not like it and those who do not have the interest and attention span for serious art of any kind, and the answer is a resounding no

I don't doubt what you said. There are many such people whose souls will be touched in Cleveland for the first time - the western parents of Indian children - yes I said it - the parents are truly from India ( western) - but the innocent children - still close to the divine - born in US are Indian due to efforts of a Guru who may even do it for Money but somehow does an Indian thing! The westerner parent will disappear mostly once his child is thru after being shocked by a 80+ Kalpakam Mami - an octagenarian playing viNa so sweet - and will never get into asking about Dikshitar or anything else. His child is still divine - that is why he/she are there in the first place!

But that is not the question asked by the SMAG editor! It was a specific but broad question and he did not factor in the few souls that emotionally connected in the Mylapore ghetto - so I don't have to factor them in either. My answer as not completely accurate as it may be is still a right and fair response to the question he asked.

[srikant1987]

I think part of the problem can also be understood from what kept Bilahari away from Carnatic Music for many years:
"although I was pulled along to several carnatic concerts, I have only bad memories of being bored to death in each one. I particularly remember a Kadri Gopalnath concert, which I slept through, and an L Subramaniam concert, which only leaves me with vague memories of a bow swishing to and fro cross the strings in excessive speeds, and lots of noise in a crowded hall. I hated those two concerts. ..."
(from http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2357 )

There are many layers of substance and glitz in Carnatic music, but there is such a thing as basic musical values and aesthetic sense *, and if we overlook them in choosing artistes we promote, we won't be able to bring a larger following for our music. Imho, if pronunciation is compromised, avoiding padachEdam doesn't get marks.; if basic shruti is overlooked, apoorva prayogams don't get marks.

* which are somewhat common between different musical systems

[bilahari]

Agree entirely with Srikant. Over the last decade in America, I have become friends with people of varying ethnic and national origins. These are people who are graduate students and are very thoughtful and cultured and always open to new experiences. It has been almost impossible for me to sustain their interest in most of CM because I do not think most Carnatic musicians adhere to the fundamentals of music: adherence to pitch, a focus on sound production, and technical mastery. My WCM violinist friends were downright shocked by some of the music produced by much venerated violinists, and they find the bulk of our vocal music unlistenable. And the acoustics in the auditoria where we hold our concerts leave so much to be desired. My one successful concert outing with white friends was a recital by TNK at Kalakshetra several years ago: everything about that concert was perfect and they listened in rapt attention for 3 h and couldn't stop talking about it. How many musicians produce that kind of music nowadays? How many concert halls have that kind of ambience?

I also agree that any classical artform has a critical audience. People just aren't interested in listening to three hours of the same kind of music. There is no instant gratification to be had with classical music. It takes years to appreciate its nuances, understand its structure. If we persist, we find ourselves rewarded in plenty. But there is so much other music out there--we cannot realistically expect people to go out of their way to develop an appreciation for our art in an age where even the president of a major country has an attention span of no more than 140 characters. Times have changed. In order to keep up with audience expectations, even popular music, like Tamil film music, has changed dramatically from even the 90s. Driven by rigid structure and great inertia and unwillingness to focus on the fundamentals, classical music has not kept up with the times.

[melam72]

I don't understand why we must pander to the West.

It is not like they Indianise their music. With the exception of the Madras Symphony, no Western Classical musician has composed a Karnatak music symphony.

Why this anglocentrism in the first place? This desire to de-Mylaporize or de-Mambalamise festivals reeks of a deeper desire to pander to the west and please the White Man.

(Nick, you, in my opinion, are an Indian, by the by)

Just give me a break!

[melam72]

"although I was pulled along to several carnatic concerts, I have only bad memories of being bored to death in each one. I particularly remember a Kadri Gopalnath concert, which I slept through, and an L Subramaniam concert, which only leaves me with vague memories of a bow swishing to and fro cross the strings in excessive speeds, and lots of noise in a crowded hall. I hated those two concerts. ..."
(from http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2357 )

It is likely that this boredom rises from the fact that there are popular misconceptions that Karnatak music is boring, dominated by men and women well into geriatric degeneration, and generally causes PHD* and excessive OHT**.

This is why we have musicians like TM Krishna singing Mukhari both off and on stage (which has led me to label him The Mukhari Howler) that Karnatak music should be made more accessible.

What a pity they rabble-rouse in the process...

[melam72]

Listening to tODi pallavis and tEvArap paNs? And their parents?

Thodi, for the record, is a ragam which is oversung at the expense of ragas like Bhavapriya and Natakapriya, which are just as madi as Thodi.

Hence, whenever someone sings Thodi, I ask someone to Azhaithodi take me elsewhere

[arasi]

You mean, KalyANi, to the durbAr? sankarAbharaNan is universal, I would think...

[vgovindan]

Who cares how anyone feels about the origin - divine or otherwise - of music? Music is an innate urge to express the inexpressible. Those who have looked at music that way know what music means to them. Music is not when it is set to some meter or scale or rAga. The moment the urge to express yourself wells up in one's heart, music is born - beyond the scale. The addressee knows.

Those who have read 'paraSiva veLLam' of bhArati would realise that it could not, probably be set to a scale. Yet it is music.

[shankarank]

Why this anglocentrism in the first place? This desire to de-Mylaporize or de-Mambalamise festivals reeks of a deeper desire to pander to the west and please the White Man.

This is not about a language or race or crass superficial identities! It is about some underlying basic conceptions that drive discourse. We cannot be bashing anglo - we are all conversing in English. It may be the British that brought political stability that might have led CM to evolve - we have lost the tunes of Annamacharya even through the kaRNa parampara which has preserved so many other things across even longer timelines - because of instability and people migration. While we recognize that, at the same time we cannot conclude that the intent of the British was to facilitate aesthetical evolution of Indian arts. They have their view of things - and we may have ours.

We don't seem to consider ways of introducing music via some meta physical concepts - instead always bank on a supposedly universal method of Aesthetics which essentially derives from physical order of things. The latter may satisfy the initial curiosity of a scientifically inquisitive mind - but cannot go beyond certain level. While musical structures have underlying order - ensuring that alone is not going to produce great music!

Those who have read 'paraSiva veLLam' of bhArati would realise that it could not, probably be set to a scale. Yet it is music.

vgovindan, true that is why meter, svara are also asserted to be divine - lest people should be mistaking them to be some physical realities. Chandas are also installed as divine while doing praNAyAma!

[Nick H]

I don't understand why we must pander to the West.

It is not like they Indianise their music. With the exception of the Madras Symphony, no Western Classical musician has composed a Karnatak music symphony.

Why this anglocentrism in the first place? This desire to de-Mylaporize or de-Mambalamise festivals reeks of a deeper desire to pander to the west and please the White Man.

(Nick, you, in my opinion, are an Indian, by the by)

Just give me a break!

Thank you for the compliment

There should be no intentions such as anglicisation or pandering to the west. I would be the very last to suggest any changes whatsover aimed simply at attracting larger Indian audiences, let alone Western audiences. Just imagine if concerts were full, from beginning to end, of stuff like English Note. There's one English Man here that would not be in those audiences!

My point is that, at the deeper levels of appreciation of music, there is no difference between white, black, brown yellow or orange. If we must get to the philosophical: soul is soul.

In my background, by the way, it was not so much Mylaporean as Jaffnan. But still largely unknown to the guy on the street outside the hall.

[rshankar]

Just give me a break!

Why?

[sankark]

very thoughtful and cultured and always open to new experiences. It has been almost impossible for me to sustain their interest in most of CM because I do not think most Carnatic musicians adhere to the fundamentals of music: adherence to pitch, a focus on sound production, and technical mastery.

Does a CM performance - specifically focussing on performance here because most of the time CM experience is via a concert, live or recored - need all these three? I have zero knowledge on pitch/sound production and won't know if a pitch came bit me you-know-where, forget tech mastery, and still am attracted to CM. And run away from the sruthi/swaram/tonal-purity/what-not hugging HM.

[srikant1987]

If we must get to the philosophical: soul is soul.

RIGHT! That puts so neatly what I wanted to say when I was writing about basic aesthetic values. I was thinking of saying something like we all have 46 chromosomes, but decided not to say as much, as that's such a soulless way of putting it.

[rshankar]

I was thinking of saying something like we all have 46 chromosomes, but decided not to say as much, as that's such a soulless way of putting it.

Not to a geneticist or the good folks at 23andMe who are flying high after the recent approval of their home DNA testing kit! It's the very 'soul' of who they are...and their business....

[srikant1987]

And run away from the sruthi/swaram/tonal-purity/what-not hugging HM.

No need make it something like -versus-HM here. I have no idea where this whole idea that HM "hugs" shruti shuddham and tonal purity comes from.

But probably I slightly hijacked the thread with my post. There is of course a component of marketing involved in popularizing folks like Ravi Shankar vis-a-vis MSG or Bhimsen Joshi. Or wait a bit. MSG missed out almost purely because of marketing, and Bhimsen Joshi more because of ... something more. Vocal music can be off-putting in more number of ways (and more number of silly ways too). For example, some people crib about MMI because he didn't stick to ta-da-ri-na. (What a reason!)

[srikant1987]

Adding from the train of thoughts after the MMI thing. Also see http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29214

In general, there is a bigger "initial barrier" for vocal music, but once initiated, it's considerably easier to overlook off-putting things in vocal music.

For an extremely crude comparison, we can take instrumental music to be like cucumber, and vocal music to be like a koottu made out of cucumber. Once you know and have the taste for the few spices used to season the koottu, you're initiated. Afterwards, if the cucumber used is slightly bitter one day, you may not really notice. Raw cucumber, or raw (instrumental) music is not like that. The bitterness can't hide behind seasoning, extra firmness cannot be beaten down by simmering a little longer. I'm reminded of that "plain ladle" analogy Varsha mentioned about in reference to Ariyakudi's music.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php ... le#p230766

[vgovindan]

Chromosomes and soulless? That is the fundamental unit of soul.What is ostensibly perceived in the head as consciousness is nothing but the focal point, mistakenly considered as seat of consciousness.

[shankarank]

At the cell level, life is just a computation and we are just computers , quoting for e.g. Stephen Hawking in public news - and the process of energy transport from/to mitochondria works accurately even as it is randomness with specificity ( Paul Davis from Fifth Miracle)!

So we will wait for the Carnatic Genome to be found and that will answer the question posed by SMAG editor. After that certainly hollywood/bollywood celebrities should be able to afford the treatment to proceed to enjoy Carnatic music - increasing their boundaries of artistry!

After all we are just 46 chromosomes aren't we!

[Nick H]

When we grumbled about the cold, a schoolteacher used to say, "It's only the absence of heat."

Even to 14-year-olds, it was obvious that this was neither useful nor as clever as it was supposed to sound.

[srikant1987]

Nick, I follow what you're saying; saying that some people just lack the "Carnatic genome" isn't much different from saying some people just lack the poorva punniyam (good karma from past births) to be born into a good Indian family, and that unless they go through DNA-level surgery or a very literal agni shuddhi (hellfire?), they just can't get it. Having personally been born out of a blessed foetus, I know how much events in my life -- AFTER adolescence, together with appropriate guidance, have altered my musical journey. This process didn't involve any genetic modification or alchemy. To some people glitzy "CM" isn't very different from the kind of music most dear to me. But I very sincerely and honestly differ.

[Nick H]

I don't deny that some people don't like it, and some can't stand it. A friend of mine with varied and serious music taste does not like it at all: to her the notes are all wrong, the tuning is all wrong, the scales are all wrong. She is not able to get as far as the content as she does not even like the wrapper.

[sankark]

I don't deny that some people don't like it, and some can't stand it. A friend of mine with varied and serious music taste does not like it at all: to her the notes are all wrong, the tuning is all wrong, the scales are all wrong. She is not able to get as far as the content as she does not even like the wrapper.

That there is the core problem in appreciation of arts, any art. Preconceptions, cast-in-stone-will-not-change-come-hell-or-high-water opinions, etc. Her notes/scales are wrong simply says a yard stick made to measure something else being used to measure a different thing. It takes monumental effort to break out, knowing well that at the end of that effort you may still end up not liking it. So loss aversion it is for us mortals usually. The central concept of the CM is that the spots of the note-cheetah shifts/osciallates subtly around the core position depending on the ragam within which the note dwells.

[Nick H]

Her notes/scales are wrong simply says a yard stick made to measure something else being used to measure a different thing. It takes monumental effort to break out,

Yes, that is certainly right. I even have a discomfort zone when changing personal tunings between CM and HM, although it does not last very long.

[sankark]

My WCM violinist friends were downright shocked by some of the music produced by much venerated violinists, and they find the bulk of our vocal music unlistenable.

IMNSHO, the loss is theirs.

What about the violin tanam playing in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6iQT6R6FPc

[Nick H]

the loss is theirs

I think so. But I return to my square one: some can't listen, but many, many more never got the chance because they don't know about it.

[shankarank]

A SPB or Jesudas tour is fairly advertised well and happens as a stadium full event. A recent SPB event was stadium full - I don't think many Western audience turn up at this events either. It may be light music - but still has the pure notes - as TVG claims in his pre-SK interview trying to explain away the reach of light film music vs. carnatic music. We have to purify our notes - was his take! if western listeners are not listening to the pure note music from India, it cannot be that the oscillating Thodi that turns them away can it be?

The SMAG blogger editor poses the question with the idea that somehow carnatic music has "aesthetics" comparable to the "aesthetics" of other classical musical systems - generalizing that people all over the world in classical times thought in the same (better) way as opposed to the current pop music of all different areas - one humanity - one universal world - with 46 chromosomes how can it all be so different yeah!

[shankarank]

And do they need to? If it is not a problem because people are gathering to do their cultural thing, as is their right... no they don't.

This is not about asserting rights. Rights don't mean anything if they are not honored by people around. And they have so many ways to rightfully not honor them if you know what I mean. I am grateful to the authorities who afford this space for Indian community to meet and express their culture. Also facilitated to a large extent because Prof. Tuttle was interested in Sri tyAgaraja. Lets remember him today!

But somehow even the intellectual East views this as an obligation that we have - that we have migrated to somebody else's land. Legally , sovereignti-cally that may be correct, but the larger truth is Indians went as slaves very close upto Trinidad - if you know Sir Naipaul - while Chinese and Africans made it little further into the mainland.

The whole celebration is made viable to this scale, because America needed IT labor and esp. during Y2K conversion which was the massive upsurge! The chief organizer ran an IT company.

To that end we have met our obligation - many artistes from HM/CM world have done the fusion , some artistes have done the Jazz fusion as well. Even percussionists all the way to Pazhani have done the fusion. L Subramaniam's concert had a modicum ( 10 - 20%) of Western audience in addition to North Indians ( He brought Kavita with him to do some hits in between).

But core Americans ( if I can call them that) may have different views about this, and much of which can be sourced from their religious beliefs as well.

A catholic boss of mine immediately asked if I sang some religious song after hearing Muddu Momu in Suryakantham - not a very rakti rAga. What Telugu he knew?

As regards Abrahamic stuff - you seem to react whenever I imply something even remotely - though you professed yourself to be an Atheist. I would like you to review this : http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstet ... eader.html - Point # 9 especially.

[Nick H]

I take an Abrahamic dig because I dispute the way that you use it as an umbrella word, when I see too many differences between what some call "the people of the book." I'm afraid I am unable to read stuff that is written by and for fanatic evangelical Christians. Sure, I expect they need their brain-washing manuals, which, at as much glance as I could stomach, that appears to be. Distasteful stuff. Maybe to both of us. And one does not have to be atheist or from a "non-Abrahamic" tradition to think like that, which is why the church is largely irrelevant, not only to me, but to plenty like me.

But maybe religion is more of a thing in America.

[srikant1987]

There was an interview with Vidushi R Vedavalli -- I think at this now-malfunct link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G974YCTQkag -- where she spoke about a concert she gave in France. Her observation was that, unlike the US where most of the audience is Dharmic ("nammudavaa", in her description, iirc), the audience for the recital in France was mostly "veLLakArA". She said she didn't do any "tailoring" over what she usually sings, and that the music was well received.

[shankarank]

I do not think most Carnatic musicians adhere to the fundamentals of music: adherence to pitch, a focus on sound production, and technical mastery. My WCM violinist friends were downright shocked by some of the music produced by much venerated violinists, and they find the bulk of our vocal music unlistenable. And the acoustics in the auditoria where we hold our concerts leave so much to be desired. My one successful concert outing with white friends was a recital by TNK at Kalakshetra several years ago: everything about that concert was perfect and they listened in rapt attention for 3 h and couldn't stop talking about it. How many musicians produce that kind of music nowadays? How many concert halls have that kind of ambience?

https://youtu.be/d0s-1M4oRpk?t=692

You hear this - and the Alapana was a blissful Ananda Bhairavi that preceded that. But this is the weakness of SSI school - not SSI! TMT was strong also. But many others not enough to inspire people like me to pickup their recordings in a Sankara Hall visit!

mEl kAlam conversion/progression of miSra cApu, especially in a Syama Sastri kriti - losing that loses the entire thing.

It is like the fractal self similarity of temple carvings or the jarikai patterns in a silk saree!

So if I brought in additional "aeesthetical" criteria like this would you consider? Sruti Shuddham?! what about laya Shuddham or awareness? So why play kritis as Dr N Ramanathan asks in that presentation. Why even pallavis? - just like Bangalore Nagaratnammal have courage to do Alapanas only - will the audience take it - in the Ghetto first - forget elsewhere?

[shankarank]

The SMAG editor's better half reviewer Gowri Ramnarayan - she goes to a Hyd. brothers concert @ KGS and remarks on KRM's accompaniment as Loud explosions in a Hindu review. She got nothing else out of it? If she is in her Ghetto - people like me who pay attention to these are we in a Bunker under that Ghetto?!

Has she ever reviewed the tani Avartanam only event @ Astika Samajam Alwarpet, ever - just round the corner from the Sabhas she trots around? Sruti-Laya not Sruti. Has she come out of her ghetto?

I challenge her to go there every year and write reviews - she does not have to understand anything - just write something qualitative!

She is all liberal intellectual of The Hindu variety to use the word "secular" for padams and javalis. Without going into paramatma/jivAtma - simple fact - Smt T. Brinda had SSI fall at her feet before she taught him anything. That should tell anybody how sacred she valued those! That is property of a motherhood lineage - just sacred by that fact all by itself!

And now they call another group half way around the world a cultural ghetto?

Times have changed. In order to keep up with audience expectations, even popular music, like Tamil film music, has changed dramatically from even the 90s. Driven by rigid structure and great inertia and unwillingness to focus on the fundamentals, classical music has not kept up with the times.

Sanjay has included more songs. Increased his repertoire! He is being reported to draw large crowds. In that regard would Gowri know the difference between his Brigha and a TNS Brigha - not the air burp vs off key - but really?? She writes raving reviews on him sometimes.

Do you think this is good enough - just more and more new songs?

It took Autistic repetition for SrI mAtRbhUtam to go from this

https://www.sangeethamshare.org/ksj/Sem ... --PMI-VI-/
( Vilvadri Iyer means it must be older!) to this:

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/asokan/C ... IC/063-SSI

and PMI to go from tharai thappaTTai ( to quote Uday_shankar from sangeetham.com) in the first to a distilled and punctuated silence in the second!

[melam72]

The SMAG editor's better half reviewer Gowri Ramnarayan - she goes to a Hyd. brothers concert @ KGS and remarks on KRM's accompaniment as Loud explosions in a Hindu review. She got nothing else out of it? If she is in her Ghetto - people like me who pay attention to these are we in a Bunker under that Ghetto?!

I am not a fan of Gowri Ramnarayan. From her uncombed hair (come on, it take 20 seconds to comb your hair!) to her sickeningly saccharine reverence to all things MS Subbulakshmi, so I will not take her word up at all. The golden age of good critics and Subbudu has long passed!

And, for the record, I feel that that the paramathma-jeevathma argument for Javalis is weak and unfounded, and made up by a society uncomfortable with eroticism. The fact of the matter is this: javalis and padams are erotic. It is ambiguous whether they had human subjects or divine subjects, but there is a possibility the former is true too. Some people are uncomfortable with lyrics like 'tArumAru lADEvEmE bajAri', because society has conditioned us to be uncomfortable with the sensual and to regard eroticism with something dirty. This very eroticism has lead to the bowlderization of Bharatanatyam and the disappearance of padams and javalis from the stage today.

In my opinion, CM will be aesthetically enhanced if we accept the eroticism of Padams and Javalis as they are without resort to such pusillanimous arguments.

Fight!

[semmu86]

Fight

No need to, actually! SrungAra rasa plays an important part in all walks of life, Music included. Ramanuja Iyengar too, overcame the initial apprehensions of setting thiruppAvais to tune and singing them on stage, on account of this (Especially pAsurams like "kuththuviLakkeriya"), but then did so, after insistence from Kanchi periyavA.

VAlmIki himself, on describing the essence of Srimad Ramayanam says at the very beginning "kAmArtha guNa samyuktham"!! Prof. TRS once mentioned in one of his lec-dems about SrungAra rasa being the "rAja" rasa!

Thus eroticism plays an important part in all aspects of life!!!

[Nick H]

I am not a fan of Gowri Ramnarayan. From her uncombed hair ... ... ...

Charming, accomplished and highly knowledgeable lady. Look after your own hair!

.

[SrinathK]

And, for the record, I feel that that the paramathma-jeevathma argument for Javalis is weak and unfounded, and made up by a society uncomfortable with eroticism. The fact of the matter is this: javalis and padams are erotic. It is ambiguous whether they had human subjects or divine subjects, but there is a possibility the former is true too. Some people are uncomfortable with lyrics like 'tArumAru lADEvEmE bajAri', because society has conditioned us to be uncomfortable with the sensual and to regard eroticism with something dirty. This very eroticism has lead to the bowlderization of Bharatanatyam and the disappearance of padams and javalis from the stage today.

And that is society's greatest irony IMHO -- a shy country soon to become the world's most populous.

Even the paramatma - jeevatma argument doesn't exclude shringara as a spiritual rasa in the bhakti movement - that is also one of the experiences possible. Actually before the concept of reverential devotion caught on, there was actually no difference between rasa anubhavam and bhakti, with reverential devotion as one of the flavours of spiritual experience. I even believe that other religions with their specific exclusion of any flavour other than the reverential might have found shringara bhava or even the worship of God in a form as something uncomfortable and this might have rubbed off on us more than we'd like to admit. The real issue is that certain rasas appeal more to private and personal experiences than others that are more public and visible and it is this discomfort that we're trying to dodge rather than admit.

However, commenting on someone's hair is a low blow alright. No doubt, the avatar has returned.

[melam72]

Thus eroticism plays an important part in all aspects of life!!!

But how many of us are comfortable with admitting so?

[srikant1987]

Thus eroticism plays an important part in all aspects of life!!!

ALL aspects?

[sureshvv]

However, commenting on someone's hair is a low blow alright

Not really! It is typically what you expect from a tasteless (balding?) control freak - a fan of Subbudu's to boot!

[shankarank]

The real issue is that certain rasas appeal more to private and personal experiences than others that are more public and visible and it is this discomfort that we're trying to dodge rather than admit.

Traditionally this knowledge was passed down in the family and rendered in Chamber. The sabha-dom abandoned this! That does not mean we have to take that as final. The fact is the tradition is alive in some corner and people have that knowledge. There is heavy music to help enjoy the rasa more internally - just like great works of literature have the same rasa. So it is not just that it is apaurusheya when passed down from Mother to daughter ( Guru to Sishya) it can also be considered apaurushEya coming from a performer on stage to the listener - i.e. strictly for them only!

If you are a fiction reader today, Sydney Sheldon and Fredrick Foresyth write gripping stories and they have their version of eroticism inside the story - read strictly privately. From a modern perspective then, even a public performance though, can be treated as a private conversation between the performer ( or the composer or the music itself) and the listener. Presence of others in the arena should not matter. Especially when wrapped in heavy music. Lines are crossed if meaning is rolling on the side screens!!

Sacredness or divinity arises from the fact that this is handed down from Mother to daughter where they insist on retaining the idiom as is, at least when it is received. During sAdhakam newness can enter - but that should have something genuine, not look contrived - matter for reviewers and feedback system for debate. Before it used to be elders in the sadas! Where can be a sadas where no elders are present asks an old saying ( nIti Satakam?)

Even while commenting on how Gowri handled in the Dark Lord series - I am not questioning or referring to her personal/internal beliefs (no paurusham) ,but at the same time a characterization like Secular should not be brought in, in a cultural arena. Even Lit festivals are that - cultural when open to Public. This is true especially for a person who has seen and heard and knows the sense with which this was handed down.

Such things can be done in a fora like university/academia - but it is another matter that I as a tax payer will impress upon my government not to fund such view points. People have freedom of speech - they don't have the right to be heard! This is not science and such analysis has no scientific basis - it is as arbitrary a categorization done as anything else.

[srikant1987]

Wow, seems like some ice has finally broken!

Imo, calling padams and javalis "secular", especially when trying to mean that it makes them more "versatile", is weird (if I might, downright dumb). I've attended some concerts where I felt a nice jAvali would be such a musically natural choice for the next item, but it wouldn't be taken up because of the religious context.

But outside of it, are there really people who won't perform these padams and javalis because of their lyrics, that's imo a ridiculous "right to be comfortable" thing. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/11/fre ... mfortable/

It's arguably even sillier if someone who is drawn to the music later runs away because of the religious connection.

[melam72]

Imo, calling padams and javalis "secular", especially when trying to mean that it makes them more "versatile", is weird (if I might, downright dumb). I've attended some concerts where I felt a nice jAvali would be such a musically natural choice for the next item, but it wouldn't be taken up because of the religious context.

I completely agree, but associating it with jeevathma and paramathma is as weird (if I might, downright dumb). You ought to call a spade a spade.

[melam72]

Not really! It is typically what you expect from a tasteless (balding?) control freak - a fan of Subbudu's to boot!

My favourite forumite...

I can attest rather confidently that my hair brims with dark, fibrous hair, and grows so fast that I have to cut it every other week... what about yours?