T.M Krishna

Carnatic Musicians
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shreeharinair
Posts: 6
Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 01:22

Post by shreeharinair »

I was searching for T.M Krishna in this forum , how can we avoid him ? such a great young artist with a rigid vision.

Last year when i was in bangalore , i happened to hear his concert in Odakatur mutt during Astami Rohini days . that day 'O Ranga Sai' was his master peice . he sung that almost 1 hr, in real traditional style. whole audience listened that kruthi in pin drop silence. if any one have his concert audios,videos,interviews please upload here ..

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

shreeharinair
it is quite obvious that the current generation of performing artists will be represented lightly here in these forums simply because most of their recordings are commercial.......

shreeharinair
Posts: 6
Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 01:22

Post by shreeharinair »

shreeharinair
it is quite obvious that the current generation of performing artists will be represented lightly here in these forums simply because most of their recordings are commercial.......
I think somebody can record live concerts , Digitize it and post it here.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

I wish life were so simple ;)

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Sigh !!! :cry:

srinidhi
Posts: 227
Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 08:59

Post by srinidhi »

Have you checked out Sangeethapriya.org ?They have a concert of TM Krishna. Also Cooltoad has the Pancharathnas renderd by him

shreeharinair
Posts: 6
Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 01:22

Post by shreeharinair »

Can anyone upload O Rangasai by T.M Krishna ?
Have you checked out Sangeethapriya.org ?They have a concert of TM Krishna. Also Cooltoad has the Pancharathnas renderd by him

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Sreehari,
Instead of dancing around the issues, let me bell the cat and put an end to these requests: Unless otherwise stated, I am not aware of anyone in the forum who will be able to post any of Sri T. M. Krishna's or any other contemporary artists' renderings. I would suggest that you try the links from cooltoad/sangeethapriya, and listen to MIO for his songs. The only other option is to listen to him live and make a private recording for your own listening pleasure. Much as others would love to have them, please do not post recordings from current artists that you have either!
Ravi

shreeharinair
Posts: 6
Joined: 02 Mar 2006, 01:22

Post by shreeharinair »

Instead of dancing around the issues
Ravi, what is the big 'issue' here ?

if you have some non commercial recordings then post it else leave it , simple
let me bell the cat and put an end to these requests
sorry to say that This sounds so rude
Sreehari,
Instead of dancing around the issues, let me bell the cat and put an end to these requests: Unless otherwise stated, I am not aware of anyone in the forum who will be able to post any of Sri T. M. Krishna's or any other contemporary artists' renderings. I would suggest that you try the links from cooltoad/sangeethapriya, and listen to MIO for his songs. The only other option is to listen to him live and make a private recording for your own listening pleasure. Much as others would love to have them, please do not post recordings from current artists that you have either!
Ravi

Vaaraki
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 05:24

Post by Vaaraki »

:)
Last edited by Vaaraki on 27 Jun 2008, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

shreeharinair & Vaaraki

For starters take the time also to read our forum rules instead of shooting Q's!

http://rasikas.org/misc.php?action=rules

No current artists'' recordings (since they are very likely copyrighted)

Sam Swaminathan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45

Post by Sam Swaminathan »

Before every body jump in and "pirandify" Ravi for his comments (albeit a bit harsh), there is an element of truth in what he is saying. For example, how does one know that a particular kutchery is non commercial ? I am saying this with some experience on this matter. I run the NZ Carnatic Soceity, as a committee member. We recently had an artist here performing for us. As is our normal custom, I approcached the person and requested that we record the concert for our archival purposes. The answer was a flat NO. I enquired as to the reason. The artist replied that all that artist's concerts are licenced or copywrited to some music company in India and that I need to get their permission to record the concert. I was fed up and I stood on my rights to do a recording for our official purposes and to hell with the artist's agreement with the recording company. The artist finally consented. I am not in a position to stand in judgement of the artist's position. But as a fee paying organisation, I should have the right to do one recording for my official needs, on the understanding that such copy is not circulated or sold to any one ( or put into Rapidshare for sharing amongst us)

Perhaps, this is one of the reasons for Ravi's comments.........

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

Not only this.

Each and every upload here comes with the Guarantee (from the uploader) that
** to the best of current knowledge , these were not thought to be in commercial domain , and if found to be so , there would be no hesitation in withdrawing them, unconditionally.

**the entire thrust of uploads is directed towards a better understanding of a person or a subject .

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Sam, I did not respond to the earlier 'pirandifying' because I thought it did not merit a reply! I have discovered that a skin that is 3 parts rhinoceros hide and 1 part armored plate helps deflecting such comments. This copyright issue is a sensitive one to all of us who survived a storm in a tea-cup brought on us by a fromer member. So, as moderators, we have decided to jump in as and when we see something that could result in a bad outcome for the forum. And if we appear rude, then that is a price we are willing to pay.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Ravi,
This brings to mind another important issue. While folks in India speak of how CM flourishes elsewhere (in the US, Australia etc), I wonder whether they get the whole picture. How much energy, time and goodwill goes into it! What a struggle it is--specially in smaller communities to bring a concert to town! A prosperous community does not mean that funds are readily available for a CM concert. The point I am coming to is that the sabhas NEED to keep themselves solvent and one of the sources of funds is in selling concert recordings to those who cannot attend. The work involved in this is done by the sabha volunteers . Any musician who says that the concert should not be recorded--may not get invited again to perform. Correct me if I am wrong...

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

arasi
you are wrong
Sabhas are more prosperous than what you imagine.

Concert recordings ...
Unless the artist him/herself is convinced that it is in their interest to decide which concerts should be in public domain and allow them to be so, there is no hope.
For that, they must first get convinced that such an affirmative action will not lead to reduced sales of what is published in the market .
(Mysore Nagaraj once confided to me that the task of discussing the list of tracks with the Music house was such a depressing one - talks which veer around to atleast 10 tracks in 60 mts with a raghuvamshasudha or some such thing.And he also mentioned that in case he insisted on a 45 mt begada , he would never be called again for discussions !)
Just imagine , if only we could dicuss freely, in our forums, about current artists with the use of recordings.
We would then not be in so much pain to convince the Doubting Thomas that CM is indeed alive and flourishing.

I have personal experience of requesting atleast 4 current artists for selective uploads and the answer is
sadly,

NEITHER A YES
NOR
A NO.

this was one of the issues raised at the symposium in Narada Gana Sabha, but no one gave it enough thought.
except for Sriram Parasuram ,who said -
"Make a whitepaper with a list of demands - i will try to help , with as many artists as possible."
Is anyone willing to start defining such an action plan , to rope in the current artists , for wider dissemination...
Carnatica openly announced that rasikas.org was definitely a site with some sense and had to be taken seriously.
Can we latch on to that straw - however small ?
Can we start with artists who are members here atleast ?

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Ravi/Kulkarniji/Sam/others, while it may not be possible to upload TMK's concerts, the forum is also meant for discussing musicians and share other "un-copyrighted" stuff - photos/articles/interviews etc.

Perhaps that would mollify Shreehari to some extent...here is the musician's website - www.tmkrishna.com

An interview with carnatica.com - http://www.carnatica.net/nvr/tmk-interview.htm

Vijay

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

coolkarni,

Arasi is talking funds from a different angle - From the angle of sabhas here in the USA. I think that is quite true.
-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 11 Jan 2007, 11:29, edited 1 time in total.

coolkarni

Post by coolkarni »

ramakriya
point taken

Vijay
I was not referring to TMK alone.Though this subject cropped up in this thread.
In fact he is probably the only artist who had spoken out his mind on this subject and we should respect him for that ..

I have no rigid feelings on these matters too.
Quite content to enjoy all these legally , Internet or no Internet.
( i have just been busy scanning my dads old letters and one of them said -in 1987-
Hey ! our tape collection-in numbers- has crossed 585 ... Probably it is time for us to stop now):)

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Coming back to this topic, I think that when any track is u/led, one must be certain that it will not violate copyright laws. When it comes to contemporary musicians, one must get permission from the artist in question, or their representative. A few of the current crop are lackadaisical, but a majority hold very clear views on the sharing of their music, even something that was not recorded 'officially' - they do feel that it is 'theirs' to decide. For instance, Manakkal Sri Rangarajan's music should NOT be uploaded unless he and/or Sriram expressly give(s) permission. And going by some of the requests for withdrawing tracks on other forums, it is clear that u/ling without permission can be a dicey business. So, in order to be like Ceasar's wife, let us make absolutely sure that we have the artists' permission before we upload.
Vijay,
If we do want to discuss contemporary musicians, and discuss nuances or other aspects, I certainly think that we can post links to commercially available albums that can be purchased, or links to MIO or raaga, or udhbhava, and use those tracks for demonstrating a point.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

"Make a whitepaper with a list of demands - i will try to help , with as many artists as possible."
Is anyone willing to start defining such an action plan , to rope in the current artists , for wider dissemination...
Shashi - I am quite willing to work with others on this. Such a document should also include the benefits from the musicians' perspective to get their buy-in.
This has been a pet peeve of mine for some time now...
Last edited by jayaram on 11 Jan 2007, 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Cool,
As Ramakriya clarified, What I meant were sabhAs (music associations) OUTSIDE of India. We started off having chamber music in our basements mostly, and threw in a dinner--and even those who did not KNOW CM came--the indian community was a non-entity, and people came from within a radius of about hundred miles or more to a gathering--even to a concert! Students came for a home cooked meal. They were mostly pot luck dinners and great vidwans and vidushis came to sing and perform, eating with us like family. Then the temples came up as indian population grew, and they became concert venues. Any senior musician would tell you that there were many house concerts on their agenda. DKP, MLV, Maharajapuram, Parveen Sultana and so many others. Of course, some concerts took place in the universities, even then.
Today, many a good musician goes back to India without performing for these small communitiesecause they can't afford to pay the musicians!
Last edited by arasi on 11 Jan 2007, 23:17, edited 1 time in total.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

Driiving home today, I was listening to the local BBC evening show that had an interesting piece. Apparently the new generation of rock/pop/etc music lovers in the west that has grown up on downloads, hates to to pay for any music - but are quite happy to pay good money for related products, e.g. T-shirts, posters, etc., and for live concerts.

I wonder if there's a parallel lesson for CM in there. Perhaps some creative guys will come up with a novel business model...

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Would love to see the mAmIs and mAmAs (especially mine!) who usually go to these kutcheris wearing T shirts with faces of the musicians...That would be a perfect mastercard moment - priceless...ROFL.....

Suji Ram
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

rshankar wrote:Would love to see the mAmIs and mAmAs (especially mine!) who usually go to these kutcheris wearing T shirts with faces of the musicians...That would be a perfect mastercard moment - priceless...ROFL.....
And you will need a reversible one if you are attending another kutcheri following the other :D

mahavishnu
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Post by mahavishnu »

Jayaram, Interesting point.
TMK often talks about commercialization of music and there being nothing wrong with it if you do not compromise on quality. In several interviews, he explicitly says that what people are buying into is a "brand". The quality of the brand helps sustain its impact and repeat purchases. Here is an articulate interview where he makes this point: http://brangan.easyjournal.com/entry.aspx?eid=2933599

In more regulated music businesses (W.Classical included), all the music produced by an artiste is actually owned by the recording company. Even concert appearances of these artistes are managed by the companies. I'm not sure if this is the right solution, but it is here to stay. Bootlegging at concert halls is highly frowned upon and big venues like the Royal Albert hall or Carnegie hall will not allow one to bring an ipod and just record off the air. Musicians are also picky about the quality of the reproduction (or lack thereof) that comes from even an unauthorized recording by anyone except for the producers from the company. In their logic, the sabha does not own any rights to the music that was performed there, it was just a venue.

We should ensure that the musicians come first and that they can make ends meet. It is of course important that sabhas succeed, but where would they be if the musicans cannot earn a meaningful living. Not everyone is St.Thyagaraja after all, and even his family was not too happy with his choices. If musicians were to succeed, they should be in a position to follow their bliss without having to work a day-job to make ends meet.

Arasi, I too long for those simple days of chamber music in someone's house and listening to KVN and Ramnad Krishnan, followed by stimulating discussions over idli that the host family lovingly prepares. Somehow I wish we could roll back time and go to this place where music was not a globalized commodity.

jayaram
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Joined: 30 Jun 2006, 03:08

Post by jayaram »

T-shirts are very hard to copy and circulate, while CDs/DVDs are (and people often do). Therein lies the kernel of an idea for a novel approach.

And T-shirt is just an example, I'm sure we can come up with a CM-relevant one. (Although in my last trip to India, I found a classy, expensive [~Rs1000] desi T-shirt brand ['OM'?] being sold at airports.)

mahavishnu
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Post by mahavishnu »

Another interesting interview with TMK
http://brangan.easyjournal.com/entry.aspx?eid=3191900

also relevant to the other thread where the discussion was about reaching out to non-CM audiences.

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

A nice interview...Shows how talented all of these people are. I did not know that Gowri Ramnarayanan's talents ran towards writing plays! Wonderful...
And what Krishna describes as 'conveying emotion through the song' or using the voice to project emotion while singing is what people like Smt MSS and Smt MLV learnt when they sang for movies...the song was not merely a vehicle for their voices - the voice was an instrument to be used to project the emotion while singing - very difficult and way more complicated than 'mere' vAcika abhinayam - to maintain sruti/layam and yet project a visual image - the perfect example that comes to my mind is Smt. MSS singing Kalki's mAlai pozhudinilE - when she sings 'nAlu puram nOkki nAdi nAn yAr ingu vandadenrEn' you get the feeling of vallI looking all around, and hesitantly approaching the stranger...or in madhurAshTakam, when she sings 'smaraNam madhuram' one actually gets the idea of sweet meditation!

grsastrigal
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Joined: 27 Dec 2006, 10:52

Post by grsastrigal »

I had a very bad experience with TMK. I uploaded a video clip of Bogeendhra sayinam (KVrli) from his live concert here in Dubai in Sangeethapriya. S.Priya got a big mail from TMK stopping this uploading at once. I sent a personal apology letter to TMK and deleted that !!!

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Perhaps you should have obtained his permission before doing the upload?

Ragjay
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Post by Ragjay »

Cool is right TMK had objected to his concerts being uploaded on the sangeethapriya forum. It is not necessary to upload his concerts as most are commercially available.and he gives concerts frequently.When a performing artist has expressed his protest on upload of his concerts one must concede to his request and act accordingly. Frankly with so much of material of pastmasters available I would not want to possess his renderings recorded. Bye Ragjay

rajaglan
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Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:34

Post by rajaglan »

Hi ,

I saw the list of postings here. There was a big gap in the middle.
Anyway I agree with Sreehari that that particular concert was good.

Actually the story goes like this. The sabha got a news of expiry of one of
the prominent member of the sabha just minutes before the concert. There was
silence observed for his soul and later the secretary of the sabha requested
krishna that he start/sing a kamboji as a respect to the soul as the member was
fond of kamboji. TMK didnot start with kamboji, didnot render second or third
song in kamboji. I thought how come such a simple request be ignored. TMK
really showed his magnamity by singing O rangasayee for an hour. It may be
a coincidence by god that he prepared for a mainsong in kamboji.

For sreehari, you can have the same expr by buying his commercial recording
O Rangasayee peformed in Kovai released by Rajalakshmi audio. It is a very good album
with three CDs worth any money.

Clarification required not for this site ( I have read the rule) but in general for anyone to pocess):
I think the following has no copyright issue:
1. audio Recording of a broadcast of a concert from a radio using the audio output from the radio. Am I correct ?
For example AIR recording of TMK (2007) in Mudra is available in sangeethamshare.
If this is fine, sreehari, you can download this too!

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »


kaumaaram
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Post by kaumaaram »

grsastrigal wrote:I had a very bad experience with TMK. I uploaded a video clip of Bogeendhra sayinam (KVrli) from his live concert here in Dubai in Sangeethapriya. S.Priya got a big mail from TMK stopping this uploading at once. I sent a personal apology letter to TMK and deleted that !!!
A personal apology letter would have been unnecessary inasmuch as the objection was not addressed to you but to a forum. Yet, it is just your magnanimity that you apologised to him.

Kaumaaram

thanjavooran
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 04:44

Post by thanjavooran »

Saftey First!
This reminds me of an incident few years back. TMK and Sudha did not permit the organisers to record their concerts when they were invited for fall concerts in one of the sabhas in bay area. Ofcourse it is their highly personal wish.

bhaktha
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 23:02

Post by bhaktha »

I had made the same point some time ago and don't mind saying it again: Why are current day artistes so bent on copyrights? If the yester year masters like GNB, ARI etc had done the same, we might not have had such huge collections of their music and would have probably had to be content with AIR broadcasts.
-bhaktha

mahesh3
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Post by mahesh3 »

If an organization host a concert of TMK or any other artist, do they have copyright of it?
Last edited by mahesh3 on 13 Oct 2007, 18:57, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

We have bought tapes and CDs from the sabhas in the US of several concerts by different artistes--on reading about them in their newsletters and on finding them at their venues.
Last edited by arasi on 14 Oct 2007, 00:54, edited 1 time in total.

Sundara Rajan
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Post by Sundara Rajan »

It is simple: the motive is MONEY. If concerts are made available by sabhas for ONE price, umpteen copies are made and shared amongst friends, and the artist's commercial CD sales suffer. The sabhas of course, pay extra and get vaiver/permission from the artist for recording & sale, BEFORE the concert. Gone are the days when artists were actually PLEASED to learn that there were rasikas who desired to record their performance and share it with others!!

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Yes, the issue is money and I think the artists have every right to protect their commercial interests. I agree with Bhaktha about the need to preserve music for posterity and I am sure enlightened artists will ensure that at least some of their musical legacy is widely distributed. However whether and to what extent this is done ought to be left to the artist concerned

We live in a very commercial world and carnatic musicians are not exactly a pampered lot, financially speaking. Even the most successful artists just about manage an upper middle class lifestyle (as against light musicians who rake in lakhs of rupees for every performance/film). As for less popular musicians and accompanists, it is actually a bit of a struggle. Let us not grudge them their few avenues to a decent income - like us, they have mouths to feed, loans to repay, children to educate. There is hardly any point in comparisons with the past - a 2 bed room house in Mylapore did not cost close to a crore of rupees back then!

matterwaves
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 18:26

Post by matterwaves »

Couldnt have agreed more with you vijay..
vijay wrote:Yes, the issue is money and I think the artists have every right to protect their commercial interests. I agree with Bhaktha about the need to preserve music for posterity and I am sure enlightened artists will ensure that at least some of their musical legacy is widely distributed. However whether and to what extent this is done ought to be left to the artist concerned

We live in a very commercial world and carnatic musicians are not exactly a pampered lot, financially speaking. Even the most successful artists just about manage an upper middle class lifestyle (as against light musicians who rake in lakhs of rupees for every performance/film). As for less popular musicians and accompanists, it is actually a bit of a struggle. Let us not grudge them their few avenues to a decent income - like us, they have mouths to feed, loans to repay, children to educate. There is hardly any point in comparisons with the past - a 2 bed room house in Mylapore did not cost close to a crore of rupees back then!

thanjavooran
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Post by thanjavooran »

[as against light musicians who rake in lakhs of rupees for every performance/film]
shd we hv to equate C/Musicians with cine world artistes? Just my view.
" Make hay while sun shines " will be apt

vijay
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Thanjavuran my objective was to give a perspective on the financial position of our artists, not to compare them with film musicians. My point is this - it is not as if our musicians are millionaires who are out to fleece hapless rasikas. Whatever they make out of music, it is certainly less than they deserve. Therefore, I don't think it is right to grumble when a musician seeks to protect his/her interest although I guess it is only human to feel a little dissapointed.

mahesh3
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Joined: 06 Feb 2010, 21:32

Post by mahesh3 »

Vijay, I agree with you. Just wanted to point out that copyright is becoming an issue..the artists love it when an organization is responsible and uses its copyright effectively by sharing some of the funds or even all of the funds with the artists (including accompanyists). But, for eg, with big organizations like CMANA, this may not be possible. They sell each cd of a performer for a grand price (TMK's concert goes at a whopping 20-30$, in addition to the 25$+ tickets), and I am quite sure that sharing some of the funds with the artist is not a top priority. Last year, I heard that calling Dr BMK for Sangeetha Sagara award was a huge financial success (despite paying BMK a good chunk, and they had not even factored in cd sales yet)....which leads me to believe that artist recognition (for awards, concerts and all) today depends as much on financial brand value as much as anything else....following BMK with TNS this year only further confirms this belief...

In such a scenario, the ones that are to be careful are those who do their work in a quiet manner ignoring the limelight......I am not sure if a Sangeetha Sagara award to equally deserving musicans who are not in the limelight will carry the same fanfare....we need to enjoy the medium, and the music, and not the individuals...else, we will always have a cream of the crop...and most others languish in anonymity...that is why Ananya etc are such noteworthy ventures...TMK is careful abt his copyrights, yet we all know he along with other top musicians are doing their best in charity and other efforts for the medium...they are just careful in protecting their own interests, and I believe it is right. I know of a mridangist friend who was paid a piddling Rs 50 for a concert sometime ago...it is sad, disheartening and demoralizing....

I am sure all this is to be a sticking point in the days to come...
Last edited by mahesh3 on 14 Oct 2007, 19:49, edited 1 time in total.

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »


Ragjay
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Post by Ragjay »

This is regarding the often referrd question whether the performing artist have copyrights over their public performances. The answer is so long as there is no commercial exploit then the artist who is paid for such performance has no right whatsoever. Please refer to the matter of Jaya TV marghazi utsav telecast they have permitted upload of their tv relay performances on sangethapriya.org site with a rider that no commercial exploit will be permitted.There was a letter from one of the members of that forum who happens to be a patent and trademark lawyer.which extensively covers this aspect From what knowledge of copyright law that I have gathered I have given my above view.I shall try to get the exact position from an expert and post the same.Ragjay

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