Does Sadharna Ga actually come in Brindavani Saaranga?

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 22 Dec 2006, 23:08

Hello everyone,

Does Brindavani Saaranga actually take a Sadharna Ga?

As far as I have heard, I can only hear :
AAROHANA - SA, CHATUSHRUTI RI, SUDDHA MA, PA, KAAKALI NI, SA
AVAROHANA - SA, KAISHIKI NI, PA, SUDDHA MA, CHATUSHRUTI RI, SA.

For instance, Kamalaptha kula and Kaliyuga varadhan songs, I really didn't hear a 'Sadharna Ga' in them. Correct me if I am wrong.
I will appreciate if somebody can comment and clarify on this.

Thanks,

Nandy.

Music · Post by **Music** » 22 Dec 2006, 23:35

Good question. Rangapuravihara by MD shows usage of sadharana gandhara, though very limited. Not all songs in this raga use G1 though, which would mean it is used occassionally & you can pull off the raga even without ever using G1.
Depending on the composition, there are 2 versions of murchana for this raga:
1. SRMPN3S - SN2PMRS
2. SRMPN3S - SN2PMRG1S
(janya of Kharaharapriya)

However, the names Brindavani & Brindavanasaranga seem to be used interchangeably. Besides the scale 1. above, I believe Brindavani also can be sung with the following scale:
AAROHANA - SRMPN3S
AVAROHANA - SN3PN2PMRS
(N3 being kakali nishadam and N2 being kaisiki nishadam)

The rendition of Soundararajam by TNS on musicindiaonline is interesting:
1. The ragamudra in the song is 'Brindavanasaranga'.
2. There are traces of G1 in the song.
3. His alapana & swarakalpana don't show G1 at all.

Again, the usage of G1 also seems to differ from artist to artist. I have heard Soundararajam being sung without a gandhara too.

I wonder if Brindavani & Brindavanasaranga were actually supposed to be two different ragas with G1 being used in the latter only. Maybe over time some artists looked upon them as one and the same?? Some artists may still be treating them as two different ragas??

Comments welcome.

Jyothsna_music · Post by **Jyothsna_music** » 24 Dec 2006, 18:21

Iam also often confused with Brindavani and Brindavani saranga.Some say now there is no difference both are accepted as one. And some say they are different. It will be nice if learned members can help us.

akkella sir, can you clarify us?

Regards
Jyothsna SaiRam

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 25 Dec 2006, 04:41

Music and Jyothsna_music,

I sure know as per Hindustani music - Vrindavani Saranga sounds : S R M P N3 S - S N2 P M R S
Brindavani Saranga raagam has actually come from Hindustani (Vrindavani saranga), that's what I heard.

Nandy.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 03 Jan 2007, 10:17

Music and Jyothsna_music,

I got this detail from an article in the Hindu published for the Dec,2006 music festival..

Brindavana Saranga : This raga has two versions.

In the version of Muthuswami Dikshitar it is known as Brindavani in which he has composed `Sri Soundararajam' and `Rangapura Vihara'. This version of the raga has only very minimal usage of kakali nishada if at all a very suggestive anuswara touch. This raga has become known as Brindavana Saranga now.

The other version has liberal usage of both the nishadas, which is akin to its North Indian counterpart. It has been known here as Sohini.

Nandy.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 03 Jan 2007, 14:17

Nandy wrote:The other version has liberal usage of both the nishadas, which is akin to its North Indian counterpart. It has been known here as Sohini.

Sohini!!!:rolleyes: AFAIK sOhni is the HM counterpart of hamsAnandi

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 03 Jan 2007, 14:34

drshrikaanth wrote:Sohini!!!:rolleyes: AFAIK sOhni is the HM counterpart of hamsAnandi

DRS,Yes you are right. IIRC , when HMB went to kAsi, he was fascinated with sOhini ,that inturn became hamsAnandi.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 03 Jan 2007, 17:12

i always though brindavana saranga had a liberal usage of
m r m s prayogas.

m reminded of the old day talk "madhyamavathi-ya gamakkam illama motta mottaiya paadina brindavana saranga"

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 03 Jan 2007, 23:31

drshrikaanth,

Well I also thought Sohini was completely different, probably I got it wrong from the review.

Can read this on the below link, towards the end.

http://www.hindu.com/ms/2007/01/02/stor ... 140300.htm

Sorry about creating a confusion

Nandy.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 04 Jan 2007, 21:40

rbharath,

Only difference between, madhyamavati and Brindavani saranga is Aarohanam- Kakali nishadam in B. Saranga and Kaisiki nishadam in Madhyamavati. Avarohanam is the same.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nandy.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Jan 2007, 22:34

Nandy wrote:rbharath,

Only difference between, madhyamavati and Brindavani saranga is Aarohanam- Kakali nishadam in B. Saranga and Kaisiki nishadam in Madhyamavati. Avarohanam is the same.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nandy.

Even though there are pAthAntaras of bRndAvana sAranga with kAkali nishAda in ArOhaNa, use of kAkali nishAda is not really a must.

-Ramakriya

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 05 Jan 2007, 13:58

http://rapidshare.com/files/10297709/br ... a.mp3.html

maybe this is of some help ??
gs mani and rajaguru - two tracks I Love

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 05 Jan 2007, 14:07

Nandy wrote:rbharath,

Only difference between, madhyamavati and Brindavani saranga is Aarohanam- Kakali nishadam in B. Saranga and Kaisiki nishadam in Madhyamavati. Avarohanam is the same.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nandy.

nandy,

i do not know which is right. i m just contemplating what i know. However, i can assure you of one thing. i will try to check various sources of information and try to compile the rAga description and post it here, whenever i can.

What i am told is that, the nishadam of brindavana sAranga is somewhere in between kaisiki and kAkali. like the gauLipantu madhyamam or the sahAnA gAndhAram.

I will try to get more information on this.

bharath

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 05 Jan 2007, 22:22

rbharath wrote:What i am told is that, the nishadam of brindavana sAranga is somewhere in between kaisiki and kAkali. like the gauLipantu madhyamam or the sahAnA gAndhAram.

bharath

This is exactly what I was meaning to say - That nishAda has more shades of kaishiki, than kAkali.

I will try to pull in some info which may be in some of my e-mail archives too

-Ramakriya

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 06 Jan 2007, 15:26

i did check some places.

vrindAvani / brindAvani / brindAvana SArangA

Uniformly this ragam is listed under the 22nd melam. with sAdharaNa gAndhAram being the bhAshAnga svaram

SSP or Sangraha Chudamani do not indicate the usage of kAkali nishAda anywhere. The bhAshAnga charecter is only because of the usage of gA in some sancarams.

vrbadri · Post by **vrbadri** » 07 Jan 2007, 01:54

According to the lec-dem by T M Krishna in Shimoga available for listening (and downloading

) here...

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... index.html

TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE:

He clearly mentions that bRndAvana sAraMga and bRndAvani are NOT THE SAME!
BRndAvana sAraMga has only kAkali nishAda and no kaishiki nishAda. However, a more popular and a more "hindustAni" counterpart is bRndAvani which accomodates both nishAda (kaishiki and kAkali). It even has a "vivAdi" S' Ni3 Ni2 prayOga. He mentions that this is not accpetable in bRndAvana sAraMga! He also touches upon the fact that there is sAdharaNa gAndhAra in dIkShhitar's kRtis such as saundararAjam and rAMgapuravihAra.

this discussion happens at the end of the first clip and the beginning of the second.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 08 Jan 2007, 23:16

Thanks vrbadri

Jyothsna_music · Post by **Jyothsna_music** » 10 Jan 2007, 20:07

Brindavani saranga's nishadam is tivra nishadam. It lies between kaisika and kakali.I mean its not madhyamavati nishadam and its not shankara bhanaranm nishadam . Its between the two. You can observe it in Ranga puravihara

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 10 Jan 2007, 20:11

Thanks Jyothsna_music.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 12 Jan 2007, 13:43

HMB has composed in Brindavana Saranga as SRMPNS/SNPMRGS (Ni->Kaishiki Nishada).

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 14 Jan 2007, 23:09

vrbadri,

In Hindustani, it is called Vrindaavani Saranga and not Bindavana/Brindavani Saranga.

I heard Sowmya sing Kaliyuga varadhan, Brindavana Saranga, on musicindiaonline.

If I'm not mistaken she sang it more like the Hindustani version, "vivAdi" S' Ni3 Ni2 prayOga included in the end, both the Ni's used.

You can just type - kaliyuga in the search box and you get a list- check out the first song.

vrbadri · Post by **vrbadri** » 17 Jan 2007, 01:28

nandy:
technically, as far as I know, vrinda=brinda...and I have heard some artists in karNAtaka style call it vRndavana sAraMga (e.g., flute K S Gopalakrishnan, does so....but he is the only person I know....)

and the hindustAni version is described here as....brindAvani sAraMg...and I have to agree I have seen it called as vRndAvani sAraMg. I presume they are the same....

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit10302000/musicarts.asp

-Badri.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 19 Jan 2007, 23:01

vrbadri,

Yes you are right, as per the article , it is called Brindavani sarang.
As per the books I have, it is called Vrindavani sarang as per P.B. Devdhar
and Brindabani sarang as per P. Maanikbuva Thakurdas.

Thanks for the article, probably all our musicians themselves are confused about names because of too many raagas.

Nandy

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 19 Jan 2007, 23:45

In hindi/bengali the sounds v and b can be used interchangeably.
vasanti/basanti vasant Rtu/basant Rtu

vrindAvan/brindAvan/vrindAban/brindAban

vihAri/bihAri...

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 20 Jan 2007, 03:07

rshankar,

You have a valid point. Thanks.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 20 Jan 2007, 03:21

Hi everyone,

Probably this summarises the whole concept of Brindavana Saranga raaga(Carnatic).
Any more inputs will be great.

Thanks everyone.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Jan 2007, 04:19

paluskar has rendered a radio version of vrundavani.
i cannot make out any difference though.anyone interested?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 20 Jan 2007, 05:37

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Jan 2007, 08:50

: http://rapidshare.com/files/12490894/Vr ... i.mp3.html

: http://rapidshare.com/files/12491761/ME ... R.MP3.html

Sorry .The Vrundavani is not by Paluskar.
Could be Ganpathi Bhatt(Disciple of Basavraj Rajaguru)
also a small audio clip-on megh malhar-from a Ragotsavam program on a channel from Kerala.very nice.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 01 Feb 2007, 20:50

coolkarni,

Thanks for sharing Ganapati Bhatt's rendition of Vrindavani Saranga.

What difference were you talking about?

Thanks.

Nandy.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 01 Feb 2007, 21:28

Coolkarni,

In case of rendition of Megh Malhaar, couldn't make out much of what they spoke, but when they rendered the swaras, it sounded great. It is a beautiful raag. They said something about Madhyamavati in their discussion.

Thanks.

Nandy.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 01 Feb 2007, 21:37

was only referring to the difference between vrundavani and brindavani saranga.-if there was a difference.

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 02 Feb 2007, 06:59

Coolkarni,

As we had discussed earlier, sometimes it is called Brindavani and sometimes Vrindavani saranga. So it seems to be the same raaga and yes there is no difference, you're right.

Nandy

Nandy · Post by **Nandy** » 02 Feb 2007, 07:00

Coolkarni,

Now there seems to be a raaga called Brindavana Saranga in CM and as per TM Krishna it is different. What confusion.