Non-translatables of South Indian Music

[girish_a]

Shri Rajiv Malhotra has been posting recordings of a very interesting series of conversations with Vidushi Smt. Vrinda Acharya, titled "Non-translatables of South Indian Music".

This series is itself a part of a bigger project called "Sanskrit Non-translatables", on which Shri Malhotra has written an entire book.

The non-translatables project was envisaged to counter the dumbing down of discourse that occurs when Sanskrit words are translated without thought to their deeper meaning and context. This is often followed by a process that Shri Malhotra has termed "digestion", which is the take-over of one culture by another, and in the case of Sanskrit, the digestion of Sanskrit into English.

Those that are interested in the larger subject of Sanskrit non-translatables may buy the book here: https://www.amazon.in/Sanskrit-Non-Tran ... 390085489

However, the topic of this post is South Indian Music, and the non-translatables thereof.

At the time of posting this, there are 7 videos in the series of conversations. The topics so far have been:

• Nada is not "Sound"

• Shruthi is not "Semi-Tone"

• Svara is not "Note"

• Raga is not "Melody"

• Laya is not "Rhythm"

• "Gamaka" has no English equivalent

You may watch the series here:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... oWF9FlkEpR

[Nick H]

Thank you. I'm going to set out to watch. And maybe learn.

A few minute in, I am unsure of some of her precepts...

1. because does the problem actually exist? Not convinced that it exists in the halls of Mylapore!Maybe it's an American problem? Or she is talking about a small handful of South Indian performers?

2. A lot is being made of transcendence. Is carnatic music the only transcendent music in the world? Absolutely not. And does transcendent music have to be attached to a religion or a religious entity? Not according to me ...or my soul!

Anyway, let me listen and see...

[Nick H]

Well... a couple of videos in, and I'm not that impressed.

I can see some of her points. I can see and respect that she is very sincere in not wanting carnatic music to be diluted by forcing approximate translations into English (or any other language). Absolutely: that is no help to anyone.

But she makes a lot of claims based on quotes from old texts, and shallow takes of definitions of Western music. I don't get the idea that she knows what she is talking about on the Western-music side. When she says things like "this aspect of carnatic music in unique and is not to be found in any other world music system," I seriously wonder how many other world music systems she has given serious attention to --- and I suspect not many.

The discussion needs to be seriously informed, on both sides. I didn't feel that it is. It is just my impression,and is obviously limited by my lack of knowledge of both carnatic and Western music. IMHO, as they say on the internet. In my humble opinion

[thenpaanan]

The discussion needs to be seriously informed, on both sides. I didn't feel that it is. It is just my impression,and is obviously limited by my lack of knowledge of both carnatic and Western music. IMHO, as they say on the internet. In my humble opinion

Indeed. This is an old problem dating back to the middle of the twentieth century when ethno-musicology became a recognized discipline of study in the US and elsewhere in the West. There was a lot of argument about the "untranslatable" concepts and the struggle by Western scholars to be accepted into the Mylapore regime. The substance of it was that you cannot understand Indian music by simply learning to sing from a teacher but rather have to be immersed in the culture that it is a part of. Fair enough. Many people have tried and tried hard to understand the complexity. But the same social process that has put up the requirement must also define clear criteria for success. The latter did not happen and has not happened as far as I can tell. Different scholars are considered good enough or better by different subsets of people, who claim authoritative knowledge on the music itself.

On the other side there is a real danger that people who claim that they cannot impart the deep meaning to others may themselves not understand it well enough. As a teacher I have to constantly guard against this conceit. When I teach Indian American students (who are in many ways at an even more disadvantage than those Western music researchers who actually visited/immersed themselves in Chennai), I personally stay clear of either mystifying the music or using terms that are not accessible to the students. The only way to the music is to demonstrate it and encourage learning by doing, rather than worry about what the terms mean or who considers you authentic. I have known singers in the US who abandoned better voice technique and deliberately sing our music differently just in the belief that they would sound "authentic". Such a pity.

Let the scholars hold their own debates.

-T

[rajeshnat]

On the other side there is a real danger that people who claim that they cannot impart the deep meaning to others may themselves not understand it well enough. As a teacher I have to constantly guard against this conceit. When I teach Indian American students (who are in many ways at an even more disadvantage than those Western music researchers who actually visited/immersed themselves in Chennai), I personally stay clear of either mystifying the music or using terms that are not accessible to the students. The only way to the music is to demonstrate it and encourage learning by doing, rather than worry about what the terms mean or who considers you authentic. I have known singers in the US who abandoned better voice technique and deliberately sing our music differently just in the belief that they would sound "authentic". Such a pity.

Let the scholars hold their own debates.

-T

Great point , just a rejoinder there at least as 3 segments based on the practitioner

1. Vocal - I am assuming learning vocal being in usa vs India with a teacher, as long as the student practices very well.They reach a level of near comparable excellence so all this deep meaning etc is bit of a bogus. Case in point early days of say Sandeep Narayan prior to he coming and settling here music was surely deep. There is another lovely vocalist Aditya Prakash who is also from the same LA lakers team, he sings beautifully . As such meaning and all of that is secondary as long as you get into the Carnatic zone of right raaga Bhaavam and a great taala layman.

2. Violinist - We have some really great stars like say Kamalakiran Vinjamuri and Sruthi Sarath. They all match despite growing up in USA , both are simply fantastic

3. Percussion - This is where there is perhaps a huge skill gap for sure . If you take many US vs many Indian students, Indian students based out of India just ace quite fast . For eg take this young Chandrasekhara Sharma playing Ghatam , I am seeing him for the past 12 to 15 years see how he has grown in stature . I am assuming understanding Carnatic percussion and learning path is quite laborious and there perhaps Indian grounding is needed . Possibly just hearing all the sounds in temples even going around temples when say thavil is played may have brought an angle to say young Chandrasekara Sharma as much as he learning Ghatam from his extremely accomplished family.

All said , every one needs repeated opportunity even when they are learning . For eg all the stars of percussion were given so many chances to accompany by say Chembai in 1960's was key. The diaspora in USA which all went in 1970s to 2000's have started aging and they are slowly getting replaced by next generation .We have to see how USA is going to fare in years to come. To that extent Indian students in India have an advantage as both terms and context is in real time and also opportunities which are more accessible.

[Nick H]

Imbibed from stalwarts is untranslatable.

This is partly in jest, but it pretty much is, despite being apparently in English already. You will not hear this phrase from the average Brit, to whom imbibing means having a beer, and a stalwart was pillar of society in 1924. So how do I convey to a fellow Brit that, over the years, I have, despite my lack of technical knowledge, done just that!

[thenpaanan]

Imbibed from stalwarts is untranslatable.

This is partly in jest, but it pretty much is, despite being apparently in English already. You will not hear this phrase from the average Brit, to whom imbibing means having a beer, and a stalwart was pillar of society in 1924. So how do I convey to a fellow Brit that, over the years, I have, despite my lack of technical knowledge, done just that!

Slightly on a tangent, I was witness to touring Indian musicians running workshops here in the US. Some of the phrasings were head-scratchers in spite of being patently in English. I have seen looks of consternation on the faces of Western or Indian-American students but, to their eternal credit, the students took it all in stride, and did not let a small thing like the English dialect keep them from their learning goals. My friend Warren Senders has many an anecdote in this category. That said, modern musicians are leagues better on average in eloquence than previous generations of touring musicians, and it is a genuine delight to listen to them expound with great facility and clarity on all sorts of subtle musical issues.

-T

[RSR]

The Best vocalists of the Golden Era ( 1930-1960) did not have any English Education. That is not a defect at all.
In any region including ThamizhNaadu, hardly 5% of the populace ,
speak ,read and write chaste, ornate and grammatical Thamizh. They cannot understand even.

[RSR]

The problem faced by Sri.ThenpaanNan, is purely related to vocal music. with at least 50% of importance given to lyrics.
If the CM teacher teaches instrumental music only, there is absolutely no problem. Same applies to HM teaching also.
Even in teaching CM Vocal, the teacher can concentrate on swara jathis.

[shankarank]

2. Violinist - We have some really great stars like say Kamalakiran Vinjamuri and Sruthi Sarath. They all match despite growing up in USA , both are simply fantastic

3. Percussion - This is where there is perhaps a huge skill gap for sure .

https://www.akshaylaya.com/about - he moved there quite young, and been visible in Chennai live stream, now has started showing up in mainstream accompaniments in US Tours with Sri OST and in 2019 - with Smt. Sudha Raghunathan - along with Kamalakiran there as well.

However we are missing one thing - they are all still performing to the parents generation!

The diaspora in USA which all went in 1970s to 2000's have started aging and they are slowly getting replaced by next generation .We have to see how USA is going to fare in years to come.

Now why haven't we seen the next gen which dissolves into Americana as soon as school/college graduation/marriage , band together as an identity and do events of their own. Several markers available, Asian, South Asian, Asian Indian, Indian-American, ABCD - American born clear desi! Form an ethnic arts society? Or will they consume it only as a fusion or something in some odd venues - where there is no social cohesion viz-a-viz musical enjoyment?

That's where we need mystification - if you call our music sacred, that should provide for a reason for a solemn commitment to support something. Without that the learning the children do is incomplete. Where and who are the audience to appreciate?

Is Western classical music sacred and divine ? Indeed it is! So much etiquette in it's conduct and presentation. Now with bankruptcies they are also spilling to rail stations and platforms to entice people. Carnatic musicians have been performing in informal noisy venues like marriages since the start of concert music days!

So it is not about the terms. Let American kids take what they can take. Rajiv and Vrinda are doing a much needed poser and challenge - so the people can begin a process of discovery. If all out there ( American kids, or Westernized kids in India) have their own convictions , it doesn't matter if they use semi-tones or gamakas. But do they have a commitment to further a knowledge system based on a tradition? And build social cohesion based on that? Social cohesion is not an end in itself, it is a form of sustainer - where some values are kept intact. That's what matters!!

Now the word classical is a big untranslatable by itself. It is being attacked as hierarchical. This is the start of a problematic imposition of terms. Why do we need words to distinguish from popular / light music? We have the word sampradayam/tradition to do that. That is the purpose of the word classical. Not the one to distinguish from folk music as claimed. That was a wrong discourse with non-translatables galore.

And the word : "religion"?

[Nick H]

Basic common sense... If a foreigner to that discipline wants to learn the musical system of another land, it is going to be part of the journey that they will learn the technical terms of that music, which are not going to be in English, German, French, etc etc. Part of the package, and essential if only to talk to other students/performers/teachers. Why would one not!

A Canadian (non-brown) friend, a pro jazz musician and "multi-percussionist" has been a student of Trichy Sankaran for many years. You won't find him using the wrong words when talking about mridangam, laya, etc. Equally, he has has had a deep practical commitment to the music of a certain part of Africa: I have no doubt that it has a terminology all of its own. I can't imagine him saying, "can we just call that a bar,then? And this 4/4, and that 2/4, and this truples." On the other hand, if he was asked to explain or teach a novice he might well say, "This is a bit like what you call a rest." (I think rest translates as karvais?)

Isn't it a given that noone is going to get far in carnatic music singing doh, rey, mi? Just isn't goig to happen. On the other hand, they are just going to roll they their eyes if they are told that Sa is special because it determines where all the other notes will come, and Western music doesn't have that concept, because of course it does.

So I don't see a big deal. Want to learn Indian music? You're going to have some specific terminology to learn. Want to get some simple explanation of something, but not seriously study? Fine: many people here can point to approximations in your language/culture.

So no big deal. Apart from, as has been said, the mystification.

[ramamatya]

• Nada is not "Sound"

• Shruthi is not "Semi-Tone"

....

Like Pooja is not worship. I remember Swami Chinmayananda saying this.

[SrinathK]

Neither is the word bhaja or bhajare - worship or even glorify is a poor equivalent.

[Nick H]

Like Pooja is not worship...

Part of the problem with these mistranslations, or trying to put the square peg of one culture into the round hole of another, is that the originators just did not understand both languages/cultures enough.

I recall having an argument with someone at London BVB who said that Tisra nadai can be translated into 3/4 in western music. Not even close!

[ramamatya]

Neither is the word bhaja or bhajare - worship or even glorify is a poor equivalent.

Just wondering if bhaja may be equivalent to namana, that is (I'm lost for words here) done more silently than outwardly like glorify. Maybe some Sanskrit scholars can interpret.

[SrinathK]

Tala is not the same as a time signature either. In fact it doesn't even mean the same as rhythm. And avartana is not one bar, neither is kriya the same as a measure.

The Western musical concept of pace and rhythm is very different. They do not use talas. The approximate tempo marking is usually given for notes per minute whether that is quarter note, single note, whole note, etc.

Much easier to just study various systems of music directly as they are and use their own local terminology than to try and draw equivalents.

[Nick H]

Much easier to just study various systems of music directly as they are and use their own local terminology than to try and draw equivalents.

I totally agree. When someone is coming from one system to another, though, approximations can be useful --- but they should not ever be taken as final translations.

I might watch "Laya is not rhythm" because this is one translation that seems to be more equivalent to others. What will she say? That Laya is rhythm plus god and it has to be in Sanscrit? Maybe I am being unkind... but hearts have been beating, and footsteps taken, all over the world, for ever and since forever, and this is the basis of what-ever-one-wants-to-call-it. Only the patterns, structures, implementations differ. But can one say that a clock has laya? Can a mechanical thing have laya*? No. Nor does it have rhythm, but both could come from it, just as some recommend practising music to a metronome.

Ultimately, the thing about laya, or rhythm, is that one has it or not. All the lines dividing bars or avartanams, all the tails on notes, tuples, or nadai, talams or time signatures are just stuff that one does with it. Without that certain inner signal, nothing external is going to come right, and no musician of any culture is ever going to be fit to sit on a stage.

I speak as someone weak in that area, but close enough to recognise my weakness!


*Drum machines, etc, kill music. Music needs not to have mechanical "perfection!"

[MadChapu]

I recall having an argument with someone at London BVB who said that Tisra nadai can be translated into 3/4 in western music. Not even close!

Reminds me of Wikipedia pages on rAgams. For example, see:KharaharapriyA:

The Kafi thaat of Hindustani music is the equivalent of Kharaharapriya. Its Western equivalent is the Dorian mode.

The very notion of "equivalence" in this context makes me squirm every time I scroll past it, for the same reasons under discussion here.

Side topic on Wikipedia: unfortunately, literally every mekalartA Wikipedia page includes these "equivalents." Vid. Vrinda might argue that even mentioning these "equivalents" in a reference site like Wikipedia is doing a disservice, and I might agree. But other Wikipedia editors may not. So, if someone has a better way to express the relationship between KharaharapriyA and Dorian mode that isn't so misleading, please do share, and I'd be happy to edit those pages.

[Nick H]

I am so ignorant of modes and the period of western music that had them. Hey, I'm not much better on raga! I can get as far as finding it interesting that western music was once "modal."

I'd have to say again that these conversations should happen between people who are expert in both systems. I have never been more than a listener to music, whatever its origin.

Probably Wikipedia would not be a primary source of reference on ragas or Indian music from either end of the country. I've never thought to look there for any carnatic enlightenment. But if you can make any such entries right, or at least less wrong, you'd be doing a service to its principles.

I do occasionally google carnatic terminology (sometimes just to check my spelling, which is bad enough in English) and I am not sure, but I can't recall ending up on Wikipedia.

[MadChapu]

I'd have to say again that these conversations should happen between people who are expert in both systems. I have never been more than a listener to music, whatever its origin.

Makes sense: many of these one-sided views seem to come from people who are experts, not surprisingly, in only one system, and make incorrect (and sometimes wildly so) assumptions about the other system. I am trained in Carnatic, and have basic training but sufficient knowledge in Western to see through some of the these assumptions. In my experience however, finding people with adequate expertise in both systems, *and* having thought about them enough to have perspective, is hard to come by.

Perhaps via conversations, we can fill in the gaps collectively. But how do we make these conversations happen? Where is the forum for it? Perhaps a workshop at the Music Academy or the Cleveland Aradhana? Perhaps getting people to encourage having small workshops in their city of residence throughout the world, around a music festival?

Probably Wikipedia would not be a primary source of reference on ragas or Indian music from either end of the country. I've never thought to look there for any carnatic enlightenment. But if you can make any such entries right, or at least less wrong, you'd be doing a service to its principles.

Fair point, and very much agree. I'd love to see Wikipedia become a reasonably good source of reference for Carnatic music. At least an initial starting point for further research. Speaking of which, I'm curious: where do you look for Carnatic enlightenment?

[Nick H]

Making the conversation happen: One needs to establish the why! There are several, probably varying from casual interest to deep academic study --- and somewhere passing initial explanations of some carnatic terms that can have rough approximations in Western music, to help introduce students/enquirers.

When it comes to students, wherever and of whatever ethnic origin, I believe they should be taught the correct terminology. a western approximation may help in the early weeks, but, in the long term, can only confuse. I think we've been here earlier in the thread: one poster being shocked at some of twisted definitions he's heard in America. How does one translation a korvai in western terms? I am fairly certain there is no one-word translation! Just one example! Of course, it can be explained --- if not, I wouldn't know!

Where do I look for enlightenment? I'm in Chennai. It's easy . @sureshvv gets most of my questions! Sometimes I ask musicians.

And mostly, I'm a lazy music lover, content to just listen and enjoy!

[shankarank]

Well, well we don't need to go to western issues here. Kharaharapriya mELa - yes you could say is equivalent of the Kafi that, if we are purely talking about a set of note symbols (purely based on ordinal position), without regard to the sound.

Here by sound, we are even limiting ourselves to the basic way in which a mELa is typically demonstrated without the full gamaka. Even there a Carnatic musician will differ from Hindustani.

But "equivalent" is not equal to "equal" is it? So, they can get away with it!

But I have an issue with Khaharapriya itself as a rAgA. I think HM people have it right there! KAfi thAT is not kAfi rAg!

[Nick H]

Sure, @shankarank. If the objection is to "equivalent" we could enquire into what value of equivalent.

[shankarank]

So now you are a mathologer and etymologist and I am an ordinary English usage guy! See! Language transcends meaning and etymology and sum is more than the parts - something relevant to the rAgA discussion as well.

[RSR]

Recently read a post in quora. on wcm, hm ,cm scales. All CM students readiily understand the difference between karaharapriya as a parent scale and the same as a raaga...They can easily understand the difference from the context. We need not say, Hanumath thodi when we mean the parent scale. in the sentence ' .......is based on todi scale'. The same for KalyaaNi as a parent scale.
-
In Brocheva song by MS , bruga occurs just for a fleeting second just within the niraval, as I hear it .
-
Aturamuga

karirAjuni brOcina

vAsudEvuDE nIvu gadA

(bruga in gadA)

(repeated three times with variations)

pAdakamella pOgoTTi gaTTiga

cei baTTi viDuvaga nanu

[Nick H]

So now you are a mathologer ...

I was thrown out of the mathology class at 15. Innumerate.

(This is one reason I was a poor mridangam student)

[MadChapu]

Making the conversation happen: One needs to establish the why! There are several, probably varying from casual interest to deep academic study --- and somewhere passing initial explanations of some carnatic terms that can have rough approximations in Western music, to help introduce students/enquirers.

When it comes to students, wherever and of whatever ethnic origin, I believe they should be taught the correct terminology. a western approximation may help in the early weeks, but, in the long term, can only confuse. I think we've been here earlier in the thread: one poster being shocked at some of twisted definitions he's heard in America. How does one translation a korvai in western terms? I am fairly certain there is no one-word translation! Just one example! Of course, it can be explained --- if not, I wouldn't know!

You established one reason very well: students of music can learn best when looking at it through a lens of correct terminology rather than vague terms borrowed from a different system that don't fit quite right.

The same reason applies to rasikas IMHO. Intermediate and advanced rasikas would benefit from correct terminology, both when thinking for themselves, and even more so when communicating with other rasikas. For the more casual rasika, knowing that the correct terminology exists is available if and when they are ready to advance, IMHO, is a better environment than throwing confusion at them, which I sense happening a fair amount.

Where do I look for enlightenment? I'm in Chennai. It's easy . @sureshvv gets most of my questions! Sometimes I ask musicians.

And mostly, I'm a lazy music lover, content to just listen and enjoy!

I can see why Wikipedia is not your go-to reference

[shankarank]

When SrI S. Balachander gave his Lec-Dem in Spic-Macay IITM - 1989 or so, he was using western music only as the basis for discussion. So it goes like the perturbation theory in solving Math problems. First term is a solvable approximation for youngsters, who have been bred with western music , even if personally not listening to it, through the film music of that era.

So the second term perturbation gives carnatic music!

[shankarank]

So now you are a mathologer ...

I was thrown out of the mathology class at 15. Innumerate.

(This is one reason I was a poor mridangam student)

You need to get some ideas from "kOlam" lady mathologers of Mylapore. The 28 pulli - 7 varisai ( 28 points and 7 lines) deal.

You can now offload all calcs to spreadsheets - google sheet free stuff. May be focus on kinesthetic learning : https://youtu.be/rhgwIhB58PA?t=70 . Are vocalists only the artistes entitled to keep sheets in front of them?

Let your muscles/bones do the learning, not your calc faculty. Latest research indicates human consciousness permeates all across the body's nervous system.

Now about kOlams, may be a good idea to draw out kOrvais as kOlam points and display the patterns as a poster in entrance to concerts. Sort of braille for the layam differently abled (mATRu tiranALigaL) people

A percussion event could be titled "kOlam kANa vArIr" ( come and see kOlams) - except that it is on a time sheet!

Principles are similar - and you know where the beauty is

[Nick H]

When I went to mridangam class, one of the other adults, already a jazz drummer, gave me some advice on counting. He said, for fours, picture squares; for threes, picture triangles. It is relatively easy to picture groups of the basic shapes, say four squares or triangles. This was the best advice about numbers I ever had so far.

The other thing that helped me a lot was the Indian way of counting on the fingers. Brits are dumb, we only go to five! But Indians use the finger joints, and that is so much more useful.



Picturing the korvais! Drawing the patterns as kolams. Super ideas: one of the musicians should take that up.