Seergazhi Govindarajan

Carnatic Musicians
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mahesh33
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Oct 2006, 06:20

Post by mahesh33 »

Wonderful clarity and shruthi based singing, especially his viruthams. Perhaps some of the old timers can provide more information regarding this great artist.
Last edited by mahesh33 on 09 May 2007, 07:25, edited 1 time in total.

Sam Swaminathan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45

Post by Sam Swaminathan »

Margazhi maasam, early in the morning 5 or 5.30, plenty songs starting with "Vinayakana Vinai Theerpavane" followed by songs on Murugan and Ambal....plenty of suda suda pongal...not a single temple was spared....timing was of utmost essense....knowing the gurukkal was very helpful....all in the back ground of some wonderful music from Seergazhi sir.....Anda naal gnyabagam nenjile......

mahesh33
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Oct 2006, 06:20

Post by mahesh33 »

Sam, by the way, Sri MSA accompanied Seergazhi quite often, din't he?

thanjavur

Post by thanjavur »

Last edited by thanjavur on 09 May 2007, 22:22, edited 1 time in total.

thanjavur

Post by thanjavur »

Sangeethapriya (Sirkazhi) links

contribution - Vasu Srinivasan
1 RTP - Karaharapriya
2 Thillana
3 Ketu Pogade - Vakulabharanam

Anonymous contribution
01 Orumanikorumani - Hamsadwani
02 Poomel valarum - Anandabhairavi
03 Vinayakane - Kiravani
04 Kalaikalellam - Pantuvarali
05 Enakenna manakavalai - Mohanam
06 Omkari Umamaheswari - Gowrimanohari
07A Unnaye ulaginil - Kalyani
07B Unnaye ulaginil - Kalyani
08 Thamizhisai padukindra - Sivaranjani
09 Virutham, Madurai arasalum
10 Chinnam chiru pen poley
11 Karuvile naan

ZIP file - contribution - TVG
1 Kakkum Kadavul - Gambeeranattai
2 Lemidelpa - Swarnangi
3 Yegnathulu sugamanu - Jayamanohari
4 Anandamrithavarshini - Amrithavarshini
_____________________________________
Last edited by thanjavur on 09 May 2007, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.

Sam Swaminathan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45

Post by Sam Swaminathan »

Absolutely, Mahesh.....Kapaaliswarar temple......great location for Sirkazhi Sir concert with MSA...and every other accompaniment you can think of....mridangam, ghatam, kanjira, morsing and thani avartanams used to run for atleast 30 to 45 minutes...fabulous concerts. the man had tremendous lung power...can hold on to a particular swara....say....GA and keep it going till the audiences lost their breath !!! :)

mahesh33
Posts: 106
Joined: 21 Oct 2006, 06:20

Post by mahesh33 »

Thanjavur, many thanks for those links. Sam sir, continue, continue...your words r like Koolji's laddoos....one per day, but nourishing nevertheless....

grsastrigal
Posts: 861
Joined: 27 Dec 2006, 10:52

Post by grsastrigal »

It is sad this great person has got few contributions. Going through the liink site provided by Thanjavur, I have few interesting points to share.

"Do you know that his name was rejected twice from the panel for Padmashri and Sangeet natak akademi just being pronounced as the singer for the masses ! "

"Do you know that the letter for recognition of this great singer for Top ranking grade arrived from the ALL INDIA RADIO three days after his demise"

"Talking about SG and TMS I remember reading about the song in agaththiyar, in which agaththiyar and rAvaNan have a pAttup pOtti. TMS had to sing for rAvaNan and (obviously) rAvaNan loses the competition. It seems like TMS declined to sing that song (nAn thORpadhA? nadakkAdhu!). The song was finally completed with ravaNan playing his vINai and ellA stringsum a RundhupOividum"

"Eventhough this movie came in 1957, it is very much valid for 1997 too . . . eppadi kaetkirunala ? Idho paarunga )))

Joke Paadal onru:


SG:
mmmm mmmm mootaya kattikka
(H4 Visa vaangi kudukaraen)

H4 Visa:
Edhukku ..

America pOgalaamadi pombalae
Panagaasu thaedalaamadi

and the song continues....."

In "Aalayamani" before that song "Kannaan Kannanukku Avasarama" song, SSR will be waiting for Sarojadevi to show up and then he will start calling her Nick-Name "Vaanambhaadi" and then SD will come running to him and a little later( after some chatting by the Kili ) they both will start singing that song. When SSR yells out "Vaanambhadi", it is Sirgazhi who actually calls the name as part of the song and he would sound so haunting when he calls "Vaanambhaaadi" - you have to hear that to appreciate what I am saying. "

My comments:

I think www.sirkali.org, web maintained by his grandson may give more insight. Supposed to be an excellant site.

Even duet/love songs also, he rendered very clearly. I just heard one sivaji (Rajni) song-supposed to be a super duper hit song- "Aambal Aambal"..... "Vavval Vavval". Iam searching Tamil Dictionary to know the meaning, leave along not understanding the whole song...

Thanks to Udit Narayan for remembering Sirkazhi and his Prounciation ??????

thanjavur

Post by thanjavur »

Remember listening to AIR Madras/Tiruchi/Tirunelveli broadcast (between 1968 and 1975) of
Kosalai Pudalvanai Panivai Maname by Sirkazhi S Govindarajan. The broadcast duration
was at least one hour. Is this from Kamba Ramayanam ? If so, from which padalam ?

Does anyone have a recording of the same ? If so, need info on duration of the broadcast, and
the end stanza (?) of the recording.

Thanks

new1
Posts: 36
Joined: 17 Jun 2006, 21:08

Post by new1 »

Many thanks for initiating a thread on this great singer and also posting links to his songs. There are very few songs that you can listen again and again hundreds of times and yet not get bored. His 'Chinnanchiru pen pole' is one of those...

Somehow you feel both Govindarajan and his son have not been given the right importance in the classical music world..

kaumaaram
Posts: 380
Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

It is not that SG was not given importance. In fact he was given more importance by Tamil Isai Manram. He had a majestic voice but his pronounciation of Sanskrit went for a six. Some common errors that occured are : "VinayaGane"; "Sagala" (for sakala) and so on. Yet, he used to attract large crowds because he used to sing his popular devotionals after the main song of his concert. To him a mike was a mere carrier of his voice. He could be heard well even if you are far away. Such was the depth and tone that he could generate. He gave extraordinary importance to CM and he chose songs of many new composers.

The only thing I disliked with this artist was his singing for the political party - DMK. Well, that could be his personal choice. Possibily, he got due encouragement in those circles.

I like listening to his RTPs and pure CM based songs. His popular devotionals had a flavour of lot of CM. A neighbour of ours who settled down in Chennai from Sri Lanka used to record his programs live and listen to them in the open space before our compound. The songs that he chose were pure Tamil sahityas. And finally he did have a name in Tamil Music.

Students who were sparrows (they get up early in the morning for their studies for half-yearly exams in Dec) used to curse him unwittingly. The loudspeakers used to blast his voice much to their dismay and horror. The moment the loudspeakers played "Vinayagane", they would start cursing the artist first!. The temples and institutions celebrating Margazhi obviously would choose his LPs. [Students who were owls had a different problem - they would not have power supply during the annual examinations!].


Kaumaaram
Last edited by kaumaaram on 22 May 2007, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.

thanjavur

Post by thanjavur »

kaumaaram wrote:Some common errors that occured are : "VinayaGane"; "Sagala" (for sakala) and so on.

Kaumaaram
It is not fair to single out Sirkazhi. Have heard artists like SKR,Sudha (just two examples, but the list is long) pronounce Maha(ganapathim) as Maga/Makka.

Mahaganapathim - Nattai by SKR
Last edited by thanjavur on 25 May 2007, 00:39, edited 1 time in total.

grsastrigal
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Joined: 27 Dec 2006, 10:52

Post by grsastrigal »

You cannot deny his immortal cinema and Bhakthi songs. Let us give credit to this departed soul in this aspect . Also heard that he made a visit every early morning to Kapalishwar Temple and redered beautiful song in front of Karpagamabal/Kapalishwar. He had also been, I believe, one of the trustees. Sam could tell more about this. Rasikas of Sirkazhi can give their top 5 (or 10) Bhakthi and Cinema songs. That could be interesting way to continue/analysis this great man.

Sam Swaminathan
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 08:45

Post by Sam Swaminathan »

I have been out of India for well over 34 years and hence the memory is fading. But, did he not live in 5th cross or Norton street in Mandavellipakkam ? Remember once, I was in Vivekanananda college then, walking past his house. He was outside his house talking to some one ( film person, I think, considering the motor car they were standing near). I stopped and greeted him. Sirkazhi sir stopped talking to his visitor and turned his attention to me. I introduced my self (a no body). But I told him how much I appreciated his " Devan koil mani osai" song and how it always brought tears to my eyes. He said goodbye to the visitor and asked me to come into the house. I remember him saying that he got some sort of an award for this song. I then requested him to sing that song ( the sheer temerity of me). By God, he did that ! You would not believe me. The man was a great soul and it would be a pity that his greatness is not spread amongst the youngsters of to-day.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

Here, listen to the short clip that sIrgAzhi sings (--I am taking exception here to kaumaram's dig at pronouncing "ka" as "ga"--in Thamizh we don't use "ka" in the middle of a word unless it is preceded by "k"--hence "kAzhi" will be written as well as pronounced as "gAzhi").

SG sings one of the abhirAmi padigams "kalaiyAda kalviyum.." and andAdi # 69 "dhanam tarum.."
http://www.box.net/shared/z4n0qat5ry
Last edited by mahakavi on 09 Jun 2007, 20:57, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Thanks, mahakavi. mozhi azhagA, kural azhagA, poruL azhagA? (is it the language, the voice or the meaning of the song)?

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

Everything! SG adds the final touch through his veN kalak kural
(resonant with striking a bronze vessel)

kaumaaram
Posts: 380
Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

mahakavi wrote:Here, listen to the short clip that sIrgAzhi sings (--I am taking exception here to kaumaram's dig at pronouncing "ka" as "ga"--in Thamizh we don't use "ka" in the middle of a word unless it is preceded by "k"--hence "kAzhi" will be written as well as pronounced as "gAzhi").

SG sings one of the abhirAmi padigams "kalaiyAda kalviyum.." and andAdi # 69 "dhanam tarum.."
http://www.box.net/shared/z4n0qat5ry
Mahakavi: Thanks. But "sakala" cannot be pronounced as "saGala" just because SG is a Tamilian. My point of view is that not only Telugu, even Tamil songs suffer from the malady of wrong pronounciation. If I slightly stretch the way this word is pronounced, it gives me an entirely different meaning - saGalai [co-brother-in-law].

I am not accusing SG inasmuch as I like his voice, rendition, etc. In fact such faulty pronounications are acceptable; but these are avoidable too. While so, I believe that SG must belong to the school of thought that isolates Sanskrit from Tamil. If the word Sivakami is pronounced as SivaGami, it sends a jarring note into your ears.

If I go by your argument as to the correctness of your claim, I believe I can do as follows:

Bathma for Padma
Thanyasi for Dhanyasi
MuGAri for MukAri
Dhavam for thavam
Gobi for Gopi
LaLitha for Lalitha [listen to KJY singing "LaLitha-sodharam param" in Pavanaguru].
Reghu for Raghu

so on and so forth. All because I am Tamilian or Keralite as the case may be.

Kaumaaram

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

>>saGalai [co-brother-in-law].<<

There is no such word as "co-brother-in-law" in the English language. Think about it! Co-chairman ( one of the two chairmen). Co-brother-in-law (one of the two brothers-in-law--??). I have also heard the term expressed as "co-brother" to express the relationship between two sons-in-law for the expression shuDDagar(?). The "co" doesn't belong in "co-brother-in-law". Just brother-in-law will do. This is, of course, in good humor--not to be taken as a dig. I get an opportunity here to make the point. That is all.

As for the regional variation of pronunciations my contention is that it is not to be used as something negative. Thamizh folks pronounce "table" and "trouble" as "tabLe" and "troubLe". Likewise KeraLites pronounce "Kentucky" as "KenDucky". So be it. If we start taking exceptions to such variations there is no end.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Ah the argument goes on!.

I will first note that it will never end ;)

kaumaaram - the trouble is sanskrit based words deviate original tamil language pronounciation rules. And there was no single, unambiguous remedy/solution to handle it. So you have 2 sides : one claiming that sanskrit based words must retain pronounciation even in tamil contexts, even when used in tamil constructs (naTamAdidum), and one side who claims they must be morphed as per tamil rules.

Actually you have 3 sides - the third one being sometimes on one side and sometimes on the other depending on context (i guess I am on that side!).

So while sivagAmi and sagala indeed would be jarring from a non-tamil perspective, I will put forth that they are morphed by practioneers is not unique to tamil. In other words, words of foreign origin get morphed in other languages too. It is one of the dynamics of language evolution - not very different dynamic which has a single latin root but widly different end results. Can you believe that satam is linguistically related to hundred? But linguists claim that they are - and in a proto language there was only one word. Now lucky for us the proto language is dead or is a theoritical claim. Else a purist of that language would claim that either hundred or satam is a pronounciation malady! (ok - i am exaggerating a bit here :)).

For a more palpable, modern example - take John and Xavier (zAvier) in English. Consider how john is pronounced in french (i cannot express it here). Also consider how Xavier is pronounced in spanish (hAviEr).

Now can we argue that Xavier must retain pronounciation in spanish and hAviEr is a pronounciation malady (or say hAviEr is correct and zAvier is a pronounciation malady in English)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 26 Jun 2007, 20:49, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Arun,
To continue the confusion, John is yOvAn in thamizh, Jean in french, Juan (pronounced Huan) in spanish, VimalA is BimolA in bengali, and so on.
As for the sanskrit based words in thamizh retaining the sounds--again, problems arise! 'kula pati' is easy. how about 'raghu pati?' It does not sound well at all in thamizh when you pronounce the raghu as in sanskrit. ragu is what goes well with the flow of thamizh words. Another one: how would you say or sing 'nad (t)anam ADinAr, vegu nAgarIgamAgavE'??
While I respect grammar (don't know much of it), I go by the ear. As you seem to point out Arun, we fall into one category or the other of 'proper pronouncers' or 'mispronouncers'!

Kaumaram,
Point taken! We still have no exact way to go about it. Languages have been evolving and are evolving through the ages. They are alive, kicking and shifting. Linguists have more of a grasp of it than us, mere speakers and singers.
In olden days, people did not move about at all. The grandchild of the corner house Mr. So and so lived in the same house of his grandfather as a child, a grown man and a grandfather too. In present times, we not only move from place to place, we move homes in the very same city. It is so with telephone numbers too. The trouble of keeping our address books current is tough, indeed.
The same it is for me when it comes to writing thamizh in english. Now, while writing the word as 'thamizh' seems fine to me, sanskrit words in it cannot be written that way, I feel. Not 'ranganAthan' with a 'tha' in thamizh (!) because of the ta, tha da dha differences! I am changing too, as I go along, however confusing it is to me.
Examples: 1. the one cited above (ta or tha when it comes to sanskrit words. 2. I now use S for S sounds as in SyAmalA and am happy about it. 3. I am wondering about using c for ch in words like calanam, caraNam. But then, the right way to write CM is (karNAtiK or CarnAtic??)

That's enough for the day!

vgvindan
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

co-brother-in-law - the Tamil word 'sagalan' is derived from Sanskrit 'saha-kaLatra' but with Tamil 'n' (vihudi);

This should not be confused with co-wife - saha-kaLatra is 'sakkaLatti' சக்களத்தி

In Telugu, 'tODi' is used in place of 'saha' - tODikODalu (co-daughter-in-law)- wives of brothers (to each other)

Every relationship seems to have 'saha' excepting mother who is ever unique - thank God :)
Last edited by vgvindan on 27 Jun 2007, 11:39, edited 1 time in total.

kaumaaram
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Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

I concur with Mahakavi's view that Co-brother-in-law is not an English word. In the weekly column entitled "Know your English" in The Hindu, it was stated that it is a South Indian word that has entered the English language without being recognised.

I bow to all popular opinions expressed herein. No offence intended of course.

I have read that "Law is like an apparel; it has to change with changing times". Honestly, I do not know how far and to what extent a language be dynamic enough to accept changes. I a firm believer of the view that Sanskrit being the mother of all languages should continue to be accepted as a contributor to any language and thus should not get delinked in any form.

Vocalist
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Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53

Post by Vocalist »

Forgive me, but really, I don't see how saying "his pronounciation of Sanskrit went for a six" is worthwhile mentioning here. It's unnecessary and uncalled for, as pronounciation will (arguably) differ for different compositions. Despite the fact offense might not be intended, it can still be caused, especially with an avoidable loose-ended general statement like that. Perhaps it's worthwhile creating a separate thread for the various mispronounciations made by singers (in general) and discussing them there, rather than unfairly singling any one vidwan or vidushi out for such errors/blunders. Surely, there are better ways of informing others of what errors to avoid in their pronounciation. Is there really a need for intended/unintended criticisms about a vidwan/vidushi who has passed away?

I also fail to see the relevance of mentioning a personal dislike of his singing for a particular political party.

My 2 cents. :)

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

arasi wrote:how would you say or sing 'nad (t)anam ADinAr, vegu nAgarIgamAgavE'??
Dont intend to cause a diversion but it is sort of funny that there was a debate on this precise example too :)! There were two (or three ;)) sides of course to the story. I remember bringing the point that dvi-akshara prAsa for that krithi (between pallavi and anupallavi) maybe points at naDanam.
kaumaaram wrote:a firm believer of the view that Sanskrit being the mother of all languages should continue to be accepted as a contributor to any language and thus should not get delinked in any form.
kaumaaram - you are certainly entitled to your beliefs and this one is not that uncommon. To avoid a major diversion, I will refrain from posting counterpoints to this. I also think it wont be a fruitful discussion at the end - i.e. not ultimately worth it. We can and should talk about music instead :).

Arun

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

>>Sanskrit being the mother of all languages should continue to be accepted as a contributor to any language and thus should not get delinked in any form.<<

I beg your pardon, kaumaram! Isn't that another faux pas? Whoever said that Sanskrit is the mother of Thamizh? The brahmins are the ones who imported several Sanskrit words into usage in Thamizh. I agree there have been exchanges of words from each other. Even tEvAram has some Sanskrit words adapted to the context. Sangam period Thamizh literature did not have to borrow words from Sanskrit since Thamizh was an independently-evolved language. Having said that I am not against borrowing (and adapting) words from other languages to keep up with the times. To paraphrase John Milton (the poet) "to borrow and better in borrowing is no plagiarism". I don't want to discuss it further lest it should create problems here.

I agree with dkfan here that nothing should be said even remotely denigrating about someone who is no more, unless the whole world hates that person.
Last edited by mahakavi on 27 Jun 2007, 20:06, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

I agree with mahakavi on Sanskrit vs Tamil,

I would however, hasten to add that in-so-far-as Unicode allocation is concerned, Devanagari is the super-set of scripts of all Indian Languages and more. Therefore, this is an asset for us and, IMHO, it is time that we evove a common approach between languages so that there is no hurdle in exchange of information.

Such discussions should concretise into some sort of draft proposals for submission to Government forums so that our pride as a successful multi-lingual society doesn't remain a pipe dream. Utopian?

Vocalist
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Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53

Post by Vocalist »

arunk wrote:We can and should talk about music instead :).
:D

kaumaaram
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Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

vgvindan wrote:I agree with mahakavi on Sanskrit vs Tamil,

I would however, hasten to add that in-so-far-as Unicode allocation is concerned, Devanagari is the super-set of scripts of all Indian Languages and more. Therefore, this is an asset for us and, IMHO, it is time that we evove a common approach between languages so that there is no hurdle in exchange of information.

Such discussions should concretise into some sort of draft proposals for submission to Government forums so that our pride as a successful multi-lingual society doesn't remain a pipe dream. Utopian?
I fully agree with you. We definitely must take up with the highest level of the Government. Mere classification or status accorded to a language as Classical should not develop into a stage where we get totally isolated from others.

kaumaaram
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Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

dkfan wrote:
arunk wrote:We can and should talk about music instead :).
:D
Yes, we should talk about music, musicians and composers. But incidental comments cannot be avoided either. It is this tendency to snub dissensions in the context of general discussions that destroys creativity in general. When I point out the drawbacks of an artist, I consider the person as "living" with us all. I am not infallible either; but this forum has endorsed the drawbacks of several other artists too. To that extent, my postings on the subject are not derogatory.

My postings will continue to reflect my likes and dislikes so long as these are not expressly prohibited by the rules of the forum, please.

Kaumaaram
Last edited by kaumaaram on 28 Jun 2007, 13:36, edited 1 time in total.

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

vgvindan wrote:I would however, hasten to add that in-so-far-as Unicode allocation is concerned, Devanagari is the super-set of scripts of all Indian Languages and more. Therefore, this is an asset for us and, IMHO, it is time that we evove a common approach between languages so that there is no hurdle in exchange of information.
I am afraid I do not agree that dEvanAgari script is a superset. The symbols for the short vowels "e" and "o" are all artificially created as also the letter zh. There are scripts like the kannaDa and telugu scripts, Malayalam also, which naturally have representations for these sounds. I dont see why we should not make one of these a as a super-set of scripts for all Indian languages.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

drs,

i think vgv was referring perhaps mainly to how devanigiri specifically as in in unicode specification uses most slots of the allotted block (i.e. compared to other indic languages in the unicode spec).

I agree that some of the slots are artificial constructs but it looks like the allotment was perhaps done with some intention of using unicode devanigiri to transcribe more languages that what its use outside of computer world it is. But that was perhaps an arbitrary development as same could have been done for some of the other languages too.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 28 Jun 2007, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

kaumaaram,

i agree that incidental comments are quite fine (as some of you may already know my take on this). But the one you made could have presented a major diversion, and it could have been too volatile too. That is why I suggested that instead we talk about music instead.

Arun

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

Arun- that is the same with the kannaDa script I metnioned, so also with telugu IIRC. You are one of th best persons to know this. Correct me if I am wrong.

drshrikaanth
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01

Post by drshrikaanth »

Arun, I checked the Unicode charts for dEvanAgari and kannaDa. In so far as the number of allocated spaces being used, yes dEvanAgari uses more. But does that in itself translate to greater number of sounds being represented? I think not. In place of the many letters given in dEvanAgari (like fa), kannaDa code has one symbol for 2 dots below a main lettor symbol(glyph). This can be used in conjunction with so many letters to represent many sounds. The candrabindu, and the symbol for aum and the single and double lines (full stops) are not shown in kannaDa. First one yes needs to be created, Om is easily written in kannada as also the lines at the end to represent full stop. So, one can achieve a greater range to represent most sounds by simple addition of 1 or 2 more symbols to the kannaDa script rather than having to add a whole range of artificial symbols/representations as is done in dEvanAgari. Just my humble opinion.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

drshrikaanth wrote:Arun, I checked the Unicode charts for dEvanAgari and kannaDa. In so far as the number of allocated spaces being used, yes dEvanAgari uses more. But does that in itself translate to greater number of sounds being represented?
Not necessarily as some seem to be intended to represent pure script artifacts which may not carry additional phonetics (??). But there does seem to be some additional sounds - like the additional consonants like qa, khha, ghha etc. While I can guess where some are used, others I have no clue :). My guess is some north indian languages which use devanagiri (or can use) employ these. I for one cannot tell which ones are artificial and which ones are real.

If we just restrict to representing south indian languages many of these additional consonants are a non-factor, but if the utopian view (i must insist it is just that. Fat chance - some/many local governments/people allowing this ;)) is to represent most indian languages, then these would have to be factored in.

But again if one requires introducing new symbols no matter which unicode block, then it is quite true that this could be added to any language block. So yes as you say kannada block can be extended by introducing new symbols to represent these sounds.

The argument of which block then is the "best fit" would depend on at least 2 factors:
1. Least # of artificial (i.e. not found in practice outside computers) symbols required to be introduced in a script.
2. The prevalance of the script among Indians.

At least with #2 I would think fits devanagiri better.
In place of the many letters given in dEvanAgari (like fa), kannaDa code has one symbol for 2 dots below a main lettor symbol(glyph). This can be used in conjunction with so many letters to represent many sounds. The candrabindu, and the symbol for aum and the single and double lines (full stops) are not shown in kannaDa. First one yes needs to be created, Om is easily written in kannada as also the lines at the end to represent full stop. So, one can achieve a greater range to represent most sounds by simple addition of 1 or 2 more symbols to the kannaDa script rather than having to add a whole range of artificial symbols/representations as is done in dEvanAgari. Just my humble opinion.
Certainly possible. You would definitely know better than me :). I know only the technical aspects without knowing much of linguistical aspects.

Arun

Vocalist
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Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53

Post by Vocalist »

kaumaaram wrote:but his pronounciation of Sanskrit went for a six.
If your remarks aren't intended to be offensive, then what motivates you to post them? General statements like the one above can be entirely avoided (as it is unnecessary/disrespectful) or if one insists, can be worded more carefully. A couple of examples following that general statement hardly suffice to make a comment like that.

Generally, I (would like to) think that active participants of this forum point out such drawbacks in a much more actively inoffensive manner, while remaining illustrative and educational (eg; pointing the drawbacks out where a particular rendition of a composition is being discussed to begin with, or in the kutcheri reviews and recordings thread). So, again, in my view, it appears more offensive than educative here. I suppose it is subject to opinion, but to me, it appears careless too.
kaumaaram wrote:My postings will continue to reflect my likes and dislikes so long as these are not expressly prohibited by the rules of the forum, please.
It is commonly accepted by humankind that it is disrespectful to speak of the wrongs or dislikes of someone who has passed away. It's an unwritten rule of courtesy, consideration and decency - perhaps why there are no such express prohibitions. However, one could assume that the rules imply that discussion is more for educative and illustrative purposes rather than for making statements like that.

I hope you (and others) understand my concern - I think it's a very valid one :)
Last edited by Vocalist on 28 Jun 2007, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

Several of the posts here have nothing to do with SG at all (as a vidwAn)--not even peripherally. In the past, mods have stepped in earlier to move the discussion on unicode to language topic. Sigh....

Vocalist
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Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53

Post by Vocalist »

mahakavi wrote:Several of the posts here have nothing to do with SG at all (as a vidwAn)--not even peripherally. Sigh....
:|
:/

sorry for my other digression too! :(

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

sorry! I see that I digress a lot.

I hereby anoint myself with an M.D degree => Master of Digression.

Arun

kaumaaram
Posts: 380
Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

dkfan wrote:
kaumaaram wrote:but his pronounciation of Sanskrit went for a six.
If your remarks aren't intended to be offensive, then what motivates you to post them? General statements like the one above can be entirely avoided (as it is unnecessary/disrespectful) or if one insists, can be worded more carefully. A couple of examples following that general statement hardly suffice to make a comment like that.

Generally, I (would like to) think that active participants of this forum point out such drawbacks in a much more actively inoffensive manner, while remaining illustrative and educational (eg; pointing the drawbacks out where a particular rendition of a composition is being discussed to begin with, or in the kutcheri reviews and recordings thread). So, again, in my view, it appears more offensive than educative here. I suppose it is subject to opinion, but to me, it appears careless too.
kaumaaram wrote:My postings will continue to reflect my likes and dislikes so long as these are not expressly prohibited by the rules of the forum, please.
It is commonly accepted by humankind that it is disrespectful to speak of the wrongs or dislikes of someone who has passed away. It's an unwritten rule of courtesy, consideration and decency - perhaps why there are no such express prohibitions. However, one could assume that the rules imply that discussion is more for educative and illustrative purposes rather than for making statements like that.

I hope you (and others) understand my concern - I think it's a very valid one :)
Thanks for a well-written criticism of my views.

My comments remain plain and would continue to remain so as that is what I had intended to write. If you have taken it personally, offensive, indecent or anything like that, well, that is your perception and I am not here to change that. We must generally avoid the tendency to shower encomiums alone on artists; it would be better to bring out the flaws too so that the next generation could avoid making such mistakes. That is how refinement happens everywhere. If you are open to accept this fact of life, then you will end up agreeing with me.

Kaumaaram
Last edited by kaumaaram on 28 Jun 2007, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Kaumaram's post had the line 'while they (mispronouciations) are acceptable, they are avoidable'. I think we all agree on that.
The artiste was distnguished. Yes, 'nil nisi bonum' (speak not ill of the departed), but digressions do occur. If they get to be unrelated to the subject, either they are put under a different thread, or, if they aren't worth our while, they are deleted, that's all.

Yes, SirgAzhi had a veNkala (alloy metal, as in temple bells) voice, his singing added a lot of richness to both cine music and concert singing...

vgvindan
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

Unicode allotment is same for all languages - 128 slots. I fully agree with drs that any language can (be modified to) represent all the possible sound patterns, but it has been Devanagari's fortune? to have maximum slots utilised.

I may point out here that key board version of CDAC iLeap (Indian Language WP) has been totally accepted for Unicode also. I am using the iLeap (Indian Language Word Processor of CDAC) for the past 8 years and I know that there is no difference between the keyboard layout of iLeap and Unicode (excepting one in Tamil). Even in the iLeap version, the Devanagari script has short 'e' and short 'o' and the same method of wavy top curve is there for such short vowels.

Therefore, I presume that it is CDAC who have been most involved in the Unicode allotment also.

Now, here we are entering into a grey area. Why languages other than Devanagari did not have their slots fully utilised?. I would not venture to answer for obvious reasons.

My point in raising this issue is that 'can we, utilising the existing resources, build a common platform for information exchange between Indian languages - atleast South Indian Languages?'. As the unicode allotment is in steps of 128, it is easy to convert from one language to another if a consensus is reached.

PS : 'fa' 'kha' belong to Urdu and similar languages of Persian origin.
Last edited by vgvindan on 28 Jun 2007, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

Vocalist
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Post by Vocalist »

Even as a "digression", it really isn't an excuse. It's "plain" insensitive and disrespectful, especially when other ways are available. If the best way to stop the next generation from avoiding such mistakes is by informing them in the manner in which you do, then you are teaching them to follow a flaw in human virtue as you are teaching them to avoid one in music. There are ways of clearly intending to bring out flaws for educational and illustrative purposes with an express intention to not disrespect a vidwan's memory and music. It doesn't take much more effort if each and every one did their bit. I hope this indifferent attitude doesn't continue, as it will be just as much detrimental as it is beneficial - not worth it!

That's all.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Can we please agree to disagree and concur to stop this dicussion? Unicode and other issues can be discussed under the language thread.
DKFAN,
Rasikas do have the right to say that they find some artist's pronunciation improper. And, since this is the thread for discussing SG, it is OK to discuss his pronunciation goof ups here. Radnor Guy in his write up on NCV clearly states that her hindi pronuciation left much to be desired. These issues have been discussed in the past and will continue to be debated in the future as long as artists' sing and rasikas opine. No disrepect is intended! :)

grsastrigal
Posts: 861
Joined: 27 Dec 2006, 10:52

Post by grsastrigal »

Whenever I think of SG, I think of the movie "Karnan"

Karnan is the movie which has some interesting Raagas. Actually, I still get the grip of Hindolam from the beautiful short-piece sung by SG. (MaRai Kodukkum). This verse was followed by PBS in Hamsanandhi, Kanada (I forgot the singer's name).. But HIndolam stood out, because of SG's "Ganeer" (Top class) voice. The one more beauty of this song-at the end of the song-chorus verse-"Aayiram Karangal Neetti"- If we hear this, SG's voice stands out.

Ennuyir Tozhi- (Amir Kalyani) is another top class (though not sung by SG). But the beautiful Sahana (where Krishan is teaching Arjuna-Bhagavath Geetha) is always here in my heart. Finally, the best of the best-ULLathil Nall ULLam- I thought it is Ahir Bhairavi. Someone said "No". But SG is again Top Class.

There is no better cinema "love song" I heard, than "Amudhum Thenum edaRku". !!!! It is the best "Nalangu" song any of us can sing to woo our other half. How many of you have missed this ? Visualise singing the song-surrounded by Mamis and young girls and having your girl in front of you ! As JK says bliss is sometimes better than real happiness.

I hope I am not off the subject
Last edited by grsastrigal on 29 Jun 2007, 09:14, edited 1 time in total.

kaumaaram
Posts: 380
Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

dkfan wrote:Even as a "digression", it really isn't an excuse. It's "plain" insensitive and disrespectful, especially when other ways are available. If the best way to stop the next generation from avoiding such mistakes is by informing them in the manner in which you do, then you are teaching them to follow a flaw in human virtue as you are teaching them to avoid one in music. There are ways of clearly intending to bring out flaws for educational and illustrative purposes with an express intention to not disrespect a vidwan's memory and music. It doesn't take much more effort if each and every one did their bit. I hope this indifferent attitude doesn't continue, as it will be just as much detrimental as it is beneficial - not worth it!

That's all.
I did not mean any digression. I meant what I said. If "plain" is insensitive and disrespectful, I will have to compose a poem to please the artist and to criticise him. Just because others write with a lot of verbosity it does not mean that I am being disrespectul, indifferent and so on. I have taken the points expressed by one and all here and the fact remains that I do accept criticisms. The substantive portion of my first ever posting on this artist is plain and simple, loud and clear. It cannot be understood by those who pick holes and would like to demonstrate their so-called culture of accepting complacency and mediocrity. We must learn to accept both brickbats and bouqets in the right earnest and manner so that meaningful discussions can be carried on. And that is where the beneficial aspects would flow into the system. That's all indeed.:cool:
Last edited by kaumaaram on 29 Jun 2007, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.

kaumaaram
Posts: 380
Joined: 14 Oct 2005, 17:38

Post by kaumaaram »

grsastrigal wrote:Whenever I think of SG, I think of the movie "Karnan"

There is no better cinema "love song" I heard, than "Amudhum Thenum edaRku". !!!! It is the best "Nalangu" song any of us can sing to woo our other half. How many of you have missed this ? Visualise singing the song-surrounded by Mamis and young girls and having your girl in front of you ! As JK says bliss is sometimes better than real happiness.

I hope I am not off the subject
Plain (again!) comment: You have missed either of the words "better" or "bitter" and carefully used the word "other" before "half". :)

mahakavi

Post by mahakavi »

>>(MaRai Kodukkum).<<

grsastrigal:
I think it is mazhai (rain) koDukkum koDaiyum oru mUnRu mAdam

shan_subra
Posts: 2
Joined: 15 Dec 2007, 02:53

Post by shan_subra »

Kosalai Pudhalvanai - was a composition of Shri Papanasam Sivan. It was a compilation of the entire Ramayanam . It was recorded as a Long Play Record by HMV. It would be good if they could HMV/EMI /SaRe GaMa release it for archival purposes and for the younger generation who can learn quite a few things

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