Carnatic music and decibel levels

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 03 Jun 2007, 15:50

http://jgetter.web.wesleyan.edu/madras.html

The author makes some valid points:
"Technicians who operate sound systems need to be recognized as integral to the Karnatak recital."

"Adjustments to the sound system must be made from the perspective of the audience and listener."

"Musicians performing on the stage should recognize that they are physically not in a position to directly hear the sound from the speakers."

And my favorite:
"Even at a Karnatak music kutcherie (concert), where one should reasonably expect to find tranquillity and peace, earplugs may unfortunately soon be indispensable."

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jun 2007, 20:21

Many astute observations here.
On our part, we have been going on and on about this.
Getter has revised this valuable essay in 1997. How much more noise pollution we have now! As he says, rasikAs have to speak up about it (We have been doing it, without avail). This means, it is perhaps rasikAs who have to take to the microphones (I mean, in a loud and clear voice) and speak to organizers, artistes and sound persons.
I think Getter's suggestion to make mega outdoor concerts (with amplifiers!) is a good one for taking CM to a large number of people, if they don't take themselves to concerts. Free, in the Marina, and there you go...

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 04 Jun 2007, 05:58

TO JAYARAM: I have acrtually totally cut of the amplification in concerts by some very famous artists when I used to arrange& also be in charge of the sound system. in the sventies. The artists did not even know this because if they are provided a speaker so they can listen as a feed back usually they think everything is fine. The other trouble is they constantly want the Treble knob be rotated beyond the Maximum point!...... Those who have heard M.SS. & MMI WITHOUT AMPLIFICATION can fully relate to the DISTORTIONS introduced by the Amplification system & AGREE & UNDERSTAND WHY PALGHAT MANI IYER WANTED ZERO MIKES & LATER AGREED TO JUST ONE MIKE WHEN THE VOICE CULTURE DETEROIRATED IN OUR MUSIC. VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Jun 2007, 09:02

I wonder if an on stage monitor, especially the in-ear monitor will work for CM concerts..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_ear_monitors

clueless · Post by **clueless** » 04 Jun 2007, 17:55

I recall Unnikrishnan using an in-ear monitor at a concert in my neck of the woods, but other overt means for feedback needed to be provided for the accompanists.

Clueless

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Jun 2007, 10:10

The article dates back ten years to 1997.

I have a sense that some things have actually improved since then. But this may be because I have been lucky in my limited selection of halls in the past year or so. Raga Sudha hall, for instance, although the sound controls are badly placed, stands out as having been built by a music lover, for music.

Many of my experiences in London are less happy, with sound engineering from uncle who does discos and weddings. Even Bharatya Vidya Bhavan there, who should set the example, seem to think that classical music should be presented at rock volumes.

But this is my regular rant; I should not be repeating it all over again [blush].

Feedback is essential. I don't know about in-ear systems --- I wonder if they may not create a sense of isolation in the artists? There is certainly no sense in providing this to the main artist alone. One of the results of bad systems with bad or no monitors is that the accompanists are often left accompanying by clairvoyance rather than by being able to hear the soloist!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Jun 2007, 11:31

It is quite a tricky business to provide feedback to the performers on stage. If the artists hear it over the air, the microphone hears it too which causes an eerie echo due to that bleed-in effect. After a while both the audience and the artist get used to it, though it is less than ideal. One of the reasons that mic-less small hall/room concerts have a different feel is due to the absence of that positive feedback loop.

jagan · Post by **jagan** » 05 Jun 2007, 13:02

nick H,

It is not clear what you mean by saying that controls are badly placed in the Raga Sudha Hall. Is it your point that the amplification system should be in front of the dais? Does it matter if it is on one side of the dais?

But, as far as i know, there are separate controls for feedback to the artistes and the amplification in the Hall.

As you had rightly observed, the hall was built for carnatic music by a lover of music who detested high levels of amplification and continuously strove to provide excellent listening pleasure.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Jun 2007, 22:26

Yes, that is my point. However, at least it can often be seen that the person working those controls takes a walk around the hall to listen and make corrections.

As the article says, the control desk should really be in among the audience, so that the engineer can hear what the audience hears.

An observation, really, in this instance, rather than a criticism of a wonderful hall.

vasanthakokilam, it is not really so difficult to prove feedback. Most microphones used on stage are fairly directional, and if positioned properly do not pick up the monitors.

Even if it is difficult, it is essential. Musicians cannot play if they cannot hear themselves, and turning up the main speakers until those on stage can hear them is not the answer to anything but ruining the concert for the audience.

Not that any of it is easy: it is a skilled job for an experienced professional.

It is one of those trades that, when it goes well, nobody notices.

Next time we don't notice the sound man's work --- we should congratulate him

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 06 Jun 2007, 01:42

Now a days I DO carry and use earplugs to Indian/carnatic music/dance programs in order to preserve what hearing capacity I am left with at my age ! Otherwise I would go crazy. Sound systems for most programs here in temples and auditoria are handled by non professionals, who operate on the premis "more is better". Agreed that I am not very tech savvy, I do not see the real NEED for feed back to the performers on stage, since they are sitting SO CLOSE to one another and hence SHOULD be able to hear themselves and the others on stage quite well. They could not hear well enough perhaps BECAUSE of the high amplification in the hall. Mike-less chamber concerts are out of question, when the hall and audience sizes are large and invariably the audience DO NOT obseve near-silence, unlike in a western music program. Thus I need some explanation as to WHY feed back is required. Thanks.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Jun 2007, 12:20

Nick, I agree turning up the volume so the audience can hear themselves is not the solution. If an external monitor over the air monitor is there, good directional microphones do a lot better. In-ear monitors, though expensive, is the right solution and performers will have to get used to it. I would venture a guess that CM artists when they go to a modern studio to record their albums, they wear headphone monitors or in-ear monitors. Does anyone know if that is true?

Sundara Rajan: I think the main reason for the need for feedback is otherwise the performers do not really have a good feel for what the audience is hearing and what the overall sound production is. It is an unconscious process where the performers adjusts their sound output to their mental conception of what the audience should be hearing. One easily relatable but trivial example is, if the mouth is too far away from the mic or towards the side etc. If the performers can hear that deviation they will automatically and unconsciously adjust. Also, another common human reaction is to shout if one does not get the feedback, to match the mental idea how high the volume should be for a big sized room/auditorium.

One can try this for oneself with a microphone hooked up to a home stereo. Keep the speakers facing away from you and without much echo. It will be an odd feeling to speak into the microphone since you do not really know if you are speaking at the right level, if you are holding the microphone too close or too far away etc. If you can get that feedback, you will settle into that comfort zone.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 06 Jun 2007, 14:55

WHY FEEDBACK ?

Vasanthakolilam is on the right track at one level but profoundly wrong at another.

Here's what's profoundly wrong

: The monitor feedback gives the performer NO indication of what the audience is hearing. Also, good performers don't care so much about â€œwhat the audience is hearingâ€

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Jun 2007, 19:55

Uday: My reasoning is based on the assumption that the perfomers can hear themselves directly. It was in response to Sundara Rajan's Q. "I do not see the real NEED for feed back to the performers on stage, since they are sitting SO CLOSE to one another and hence SHOULD be able to hear themselves and the others on stage quite well".

Of course you are right on what you wrote about the basic need to hear what the performers are producing, so they can adjust their output.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Jun 2007, 21:18

After all the discussion of technical and historic stuff, what valuable information can the performers on the forum provide so that the sound system and as a result, their concerts would sound better?

cz8zpkp · Post by **cz8zpkp** » 06 Jun 2007, 22:02

When we have a GOOD feedback meachanism, it allows us to be more effective in following the main artist. As a accompaning artist, I felt I peformed better when the feedback was avaiable. It helps you hear everybody better.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Jun 2007, 22:21

vasanthakokilam, please tell us how much experience you have of performing in stage.

I do feel that you speak as if this is something you have not experienced.

I can tell you that I have sat next to a 20-strong veena orchestra and hardly been able to hear a thing. The mridangist, with younger, better and more musical ears than mine had the same experience. We had a good idea of the groups repertoire managed to pick out odd phrases, followed that and each other. and muddled through. The speakers were high above and behind us, leaving us in a sort of sound vacuum.

In a big or open place, what you hear is the combined ambient noise with a mixture of echoing sounds from the speakers which is not clear to follow, but makes it very hard to hear the person one yard away from you.

Many theatre stages have great, high spaces above them: the sound just seems to get lost.

Your SHOULD's are fine in an ideal world... I'm afraid that not many concert venues were even designed as music auditoria, let alone well designed.

Uday_Shankar is very right about the individual need for feedback and has explained it well, but very much too is the need to hear each other.

When I played in London with student groups, or for the typical Sri Lankan social dos, it was often necessary to explain to the sound people that we, the percussionsists could in fact hear ourselves: we needed to hear the other musicians to know what they are playing!

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 08 Jun 2007, 08:02

Nick: To be fair to Vasanthkokilam, she agreed to the need of feed back to the artists on stage and tried to explain the need . It was I, Sundara Rajan, who has no stage experience but have only been a rasika in the audience for over sixty years, have enjoyed 'Pandal' and temple concerts without amplification from the forties as well have also "suffered' blaring present day concerts. Comparing the sound quality of these, I had the poser "why feed back?". Now, thanks to all the above responses, I have some concept of the feed back to the present day artists on stage. Thanks again to one and all.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2007, 08:51

Sundara Rajan,
Nice of you to defend VK. He would be happier if you drop the s from the 'she', take it from me. Yes, this spring cuckoo is of the male variety, but his pseudonym is that of a favorite singer of his.
Like you, may be more so, I am unlettered in all the techno stuff. The more they refine it, the more complicated it gets.

Nick,
I can see your frustration, coming from a performer's point of view. You are also a rasikA, so it's doubly important to know how you feel...
As a rasikA who has no clue to all this, may I just ask if the organizers can get a sound expert to advise them as to which specific kind of sound arrangement, placement of speakers etc would suit their auditorium? Would it improve things?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Jun 2007, 09:13

Nick: As Sundara Rajan explained, I was quoting him to establish the context of my answer. I was trying to reason out the hypothetical 'even if they can hear each other, one needs the feedback to hear how it is mixed' which Uday thinks is misguided. Anyway, I think we are in violent agreement on the basic need for feedback.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2007, 09:17

You mean voluntary?:)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Jun 2007, 11:37

Oh dear, It looks like I quoted from the wrong post --- apologies for that, and, in any case, nothing personal intended against anyone. Thanks for the correction, Sundara Rajan --- and I envy your experience

My performing experience is tiny, but it is an eye-opener to be on that stage, in that hall, in a corner of a temple, out in the carpark --- or where-ever the organisers have thought is a good place for the music!

I once went with my guruji to accompany a violinist at the Neasden (London) temple. It was basically playing in the middle of a fairground! I was barely able to hear the violinist at all over the ambient noise. However my teacher played as if we were in a silent room together. So my small experience has increased my admiration for these professionals and their ability too.

But it is not only these strange-location programs. I was talking to the tabla player who had recently accompanied Hari Prasad Charasia at London's Queen Elizabeth Hall --- a prestigious and professional classical music venue, part of the Royal Festival Complex. I said how I had enjoyed his playing. He said he had played very badly --- because he had been largely unable to hear HPC for the whole performance.

Now... having a flute pointing anywhere near me on stage is something I always try to avoid: it is a painfully loud experience. And yet, it is possible for that sound not to be heard by the tabla player! Somehow stages seem to have their own laws of physics!

The amount of money wasted on London's Millenium Dome is legend. A group from our school sat in front of microphones I was told cost Â£1,000 Rs80,000 each ! The acoustics were dreadful.

I do agree, Arasi --- the more complex the equipment gets the worse the results can be! An example of this is that the ideal auditorium will have no echo. So what do some sound 'engineers' do? they introduce echo!

I even have studio recordings that suffer from this, including one of BMK's CDs that is unlistenable to --- I don't know if it is the man himself, or the studio that he uses, but I wish they wouldn't do it!

And yet, I have seen sound engineers here in Chennai introduce just a subtle touch of 'effects' to enrich the music and actually make it sound more natural! These are the kind of people one wants on the sounddesk

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Jun 2007, 20:38

Organisers better look out for these precious men in the trade. Better still, send their sound men for some 'sound' training!

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 08 Jun 2007, 20:49

Arasi - as I have mentioned elsewhere, the Carnatic Music Circle (CMC) in Melbourne take so much pains to ensure their concerts are of top audio quality. Maybe we can send trainees to them to learn a few tricks of the trade.

arulguna · Post by **arulguna** » 05 Aug 2007, 10:06

Hello from a fellow melbournite! I have attended a few CMC concerts and have been very pleased with the audio quality! Maybe some Indian Technicians should come down here to learn from the CMC techs.

At the end of the day, i think it comes down to the Sound engineers experience in working in a particular auditorium and their ability to understand and balance the instrument levels. I remember when Ghatam Kharthik came down with Heartbeat, he praised the Sound technician for his excellent work. (No Surprise who the Sound technician was on the day, Jayaram).

And as a side-note, there is a distinction between "Feedback" and "Foldback". Most of you are actually referring to the use of Foldback/Monitor speakers for the artists on stage, which I agree is essential for all performers.

Feedback is the sharp annoying noise u get when u point a mic towards a speaker.