Sangathis in Krithis.
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Sangathis are set by the composer. Various schools of music have interpreted them differently and this is why you get varying versions of krithis.
In addition, some artistes often embellish exisiting sangatis or add their own. Sometimes this is even done on the spot! This is why you sometimes find the same artiste has sung different sangatis for the same song in different concerts.
Other artistes, such as DK Jayaraman or TM Krishna, are very strict in sticking to the composed sangatis.
In addition, some artistes often embellish exisiting sangatis or add their own. Sometimes this is even done on the spot! This is why you sometimes find the same artiste has sung different sangatis for the same song in different concerts.
Other artistes, such as DK Jayaraman or TM Krishna, are very strict in sticking to the composed sangatis.
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actually i am not sure sri thyagabrahmam had the time to innovate sangathis in his compositions!!! he was just too immersed in his rama bhakthi that i strongly feel he would not have put sangathis for his songs(however he did give us a free rein in singing the songs to our potential)
his songs were settled[pada paduthuthal] by his shishyas who decorated it with sangathis. but composers in the post trinity period surely added sangathis to their compositions to add more colour and after the great vidwans ariyakudi , maharajapuram etc, came on the scene... well u know what happened.
that is why sangathis came into being( i sincerely beiee thagabrahmam did not put 12 sangathis for dharini telusukonti or 10 for na jeevadhara!!!)
MC mama paithiyum violinlover
his songs were settled[pada paduthuthal] by his shishyas who decorated it with sangathis. but composers in the post trinity period surely added sangathis to their compositions to add more colour and after the great vidwans ariyakudi , maharajapuram etc, came on the scene... well u know what happened.
that is why sangathis came into being( i sincerely beiee thagabrahmam did not put 12 sangathis for dharini telusukonti or 10 for na jeevadhara!!!)
MC mama paithiyum violinlover
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I am not a music qualified; therefore some of the observations I may make about 'sangati' may not be very correct. Pardon for such errors.
Sri tyAgarAja uses 'sangati' with reference to music in the following two kRtis -
nAda sudhA rasam - Arabhi
svaramulArunnokaTi ghaNTalu vara rAgamu kOdaNDamu
dura naya dESyamu tri guNamu nirata gati SaramurA
sarasa sangati sandarbhamu gala giramulurA
dhara bhajana bhAgyamurA tyAgarAju sEvincu (nAda)
Here sangati is a technial term and I have provided the following quotes in my translation -
sangati - Tyagaraja's outstanding contribution to the advancement of the kriti format was the introduction of the sangati (lit. coming together) - a set of variations on a theme, gradually unfolding the melodic potential of the musical phrase. Largely set in the madhyamakala (middle tempo), Tyagaraja's kritis were more appropriate for the modern concert paddhati. As vidwan G. N. Balasubramaniam observed during his presidential address at the 32nd conference of the Music Academy in 1958, nearly 60% of Tyagaraja's kritis are composed in this kala and this speed "seems to be the best for both the lay and the learned listeners." – Source
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05132002/musicarts1.asp
In the kRti hari dAsulu - yamuna kalyANi the following words occur -
sangatigAnu mRdanga ghOShamulacE
pongucu vIdhulakEgucu merayucu (hari)
Here, IMHO, sangati is not a technical term.
In regard to the kRti 'dArini telusukoNTi' - the following is pallavi
dArini telusukoNti tripura
sundari ninnE SaraNaNTi
However, reputed musicians have made a mess of this pallavi by converting 'dArini' into 'darini' in order just to create sangati. They sing 'darini telusukoNTi tripura sundarini telusukoNTi' wherein 'darini' has no meaning. Therefore, there is no sangati here and musicians for their convenience made such sangatis which militate against the kRti.
There are many such examples. The kRti 'rAma nannu brOvA rAvEmakO' and 'graha balamEmi' wherein the sangatis created by musicians have totally distorted the meanings. I have discussed such issues in the thread 'Rendering of kRtis'.
But who will bell the cat? And the show goes on.
As violinlover has commented it is very doubtful whether Sri tyAgarAja had deliberately introduced sangatis in his kRtis. In any way we the mortals were not his audience - it is Lord Sri rAma - We should ask Lord rAma whether He is fond of sangatis or bhakti.
Sri tyAgarAja uses 'sangati' with reference to music in the following two kRtis -
nAda sudhA rasam - Arabhi
svaramulArunnokaTi ghaNTalu vara rAgamu kOdaNDamu
dura naya dESyamu tri guNamu nirata gati SaramurA
sarasa sangati sandarbhamu gala giramulurA
dhara bhajana bhAgyamurA tyAgarAju sEvincu (nAda)
Here sangati is a technial term and I have provided the following quotes in my translation -
sangati - Tyagaraja's outstanding contribution to the advancement of the kriti format was the introduction of the sangati (lit. coming together) - a set of variations on a theme, gradually unfolding the melodic potential of the musical phrase. Largely set in the madhyamakala (middle tempo), Tyagaraja's kritis were more appropriate for the modern concert paddhati. As vidwan G. N. Balasubramaniam observed during his presidential address at the 32nd conference of the Music Academy in 1958, nearly 60% of Tyagaraja's kritis are composed in this kala and this speed "seems to be the best for both the lay and the learned listeners." – Source
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05132002/musicarts1.asp
In the kRti hari dAsulu - yamuna kalyANi the following words occur -
sangatigAnu mRdanga ghOShamulacE
pongucu vIdhulakEgucu merayucu (hari)
Here, IMHO, sangati is not a technical term.
In regard to the kRti 'dArini telusukoNTi' - the following is pallavi
dArini telusukoNti tripura
sundari ninnE SaraNaNTi
However, reputed musicians have made a mess of this pallavi by converting 'dArini' into 'darini' in order just to create sangati. They sing 'darini telusukoNTi tripura sundarini telusukoNTi' wherein 'darini' has no meaning. Therefore, there is no sangati here and musicians for their convenience made such sangatis which militate against the kRti.
There are many such examples. The kRti 'rAma nannu brOvA rAvEmakO' and 'graha balamEmi' wherein the sangatis created by musicians have totally distorted the meanings. I have discussed such issues in the thread 'Rendering of kRtis'.
But who will bell the cat? And the show goes on.
As violinlover has commented it is very doubtful whether Sri tyAgarAja had deliberately introduced sangatis in his kRtis. In any way we the mortals were not his audience - it is Lord Sri rAma - We should ask Lord rAma whether He is fond of sangatis or bhakti.
Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Jul 2007, 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
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vgv,
I am sorry. I tried hard to resist my strong instincts to post a reply - but I am too weak.
I think the issue of dAriNi was amply discussed with varying viewpoints. There are valid alternative points. But you have all along maintained your initial viewpoint and now say "have made a mess".
I am only sigh - why we carnatic rasikas are "so full of it". It seems to run at our core.
Arun
I am sorry. I tried hard to resist my strong instincts to post a reply - but I am too weak.
I think the issue of dAriNi was amply discussed with varying viewpoints. There are valid alternative points. But you have all along maintained your initial viewpoint and now say "have made a mess".
I am only sigh - why we carnatic rasikas are "so full of it". It seems to run at our core.
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 16 Jul 2007, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
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arun,
all the so called 'valid alternative points' are meant to justify the tradition of singing wrongly. This kRti does not have no such meaning.
dArini telusukoNTi tripura sundArini telusukoNTi
To mutilate a beautififul word 'sundari' as 'sundAri' and then justify it is not in good taste.
all the so called 'valid alternative points' are meant to justify the tradition of singing wrongly. This kRti does not have no such meaning.
dArini telusukoNTi tripura sundArini telusukoNTi
To mutilate a beautififul word 'sundari' as 'sundAri' and then justify it is not in good taste.
Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Jul 2007, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
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what is the meaning of a hypothetical phrase "dArini telusukoNTi! tripurasundarini telusukoNTi!"?
Wouldnt it be "I have undersood the (real) path! Tripurasundari! I have understood!"
Arun
Wouldnt it be "I have undersood the (real) path! Tripurasundari! I have understood!"
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 16 Jul 2007, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
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arun,
I request you to refer to the kRti and the meaning http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... konti.html
I request you to refer to the kRti and the meaning http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... konti.html
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vgv - my post was not to split hairs about dAriNi. We have been through that before.
I posted mainly after seeing pontifications based on wild leaps in conclusions exhibited in it is very doubtful whether Sri tyAgarAja had deliberately introduced sangatis in his kRtis. In any way we the mortals were not his audience - it is Lord Sri rAma - We should ask Lord rAma whether He is fond of sangatis or bhakti after statements like I am not music qualified.
It is fruitless to discuss when discussion isnt really an option. I think Drs has said something to that effect in Rendering of Krithis thread.
IMO, idolization can be a very very dangerous thing to one's mind (and here I go pontificating ...).
Arun
I posted mainly after seeing pontifications based on wild leaps in conclusions exhibited in it is very doubtful whether Sri tyAgarAja had deliberately introduced sangatis in his kRtis. In any way we the mortals were not his audience - it is Lord Sri rAma - We should ask Lord rAma whether He is fond of sangatis or bhakti after statements like I am not music qualified.
It is fruitless to discuss when discussion isnt really an option. I think Drs has said something to that effect in Rendering of Krithis thread.
IMO, idolization can be a very very dangerous thing to one's mind (and here I go pontificating ...).
Arun
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suresh,
I remember my school Tamil Master teaching us how not to split words by giving the following example
Someone wrote the words - inji miLagu tippili as injimi Laguti ppili - He will tell us, don't split so
இஞ்சி மிளகு திப்பிலி - இஞ்சிமி ளகுதி ப்பிலி
(inji - ginger; miLagu - pepper; tippili - Long pepper, piper longum)
Moral is - don't look for sangati where there is none.
Modern day composers will understand the pain when their kRtis are torn to pieces by others for performing musical gymnastics.
But, I should thank that famed musician for singing 'sundari' as 'sundAri', but for which I might not have ventured to write WBW meanings of tyAgarAja kRtis.
I remember my school Tamil Master teaching us how not to split words by giving the following example
Someone wrote the words - inji miLagu tippili as injimi Laguti ppili - He will tell us, don't split so
இஞ்சி மிளகு திப்பிலி - இஞ்சிமி ளகுதி ப்பிலி
(inji - ginger; miLagu - pepper; tippili - Long pepper, piper longum)
Moral is - don't look for sangati where there is none.
Modern day composers will understand the pain when their kRtis are torn to pieces by others for performing musical gymnastics.
But, I should thank that famed musician for singing 'sundari' as 'sundAri', but for which I might not have ventured to write WBW meanings of tyAgarAja kRtis.
Last edited by vgvindan on 17 Jul 2007, 09:14, edited 1 time in total.
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I understand the moral and do believe that it has its place. Of course all rules are there to be broken and I believe the venerable late musician had sufficient cause for doing the same.
I am still curious if there are musicians who would sacrifice sangatis for sahitya "sudhdham", especially for this kriti.
I am still curious if there are musicians who would sacrifice sangatis for sahitya "sudhdham", especially for this kriti.
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A tough call, sureshvv! Like life, it is all a matter of compromise I think, with vocalists! Occasionally, unless you are careful, lesser mistakes than 'dAri" happen because of the very stringing of words which go with the sangati. More of a chance in compositions which are set to tune by someone other than the lyricist.
Govindan is right! As a composer, it makes me wince when people turn 'cukku (dried ginger)+miLAgu+tippili into cuk+kumi+Lagutip+pili!
Govindan is right! As a composer, it makes me wince when people turn 'cukku (dried ginger)+miLAgu+tippili into cuk+kumi+Lagutip+pili!
Last edited by arasi on 18 Jul 2007, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
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suresh,
If you want to listen to sAhitya Suddham and bhAva, please listen to the kRtis sung by one Mr Sarma - I do not know who he is - there are no albums; his name is not even heard in CM circles.
May be I have very peculiar ears. There is no present or (recent) past CM musician who measures upto him. His rendering of 'kELano hari tALanO' and 'sundari nI divya rUpamu' are treat to ears.
I request someone to throw more light on this person.
I have recorded a few kRtis sung by him - mostly from radio and WS.
arasi,
Thanks for the correction - it is indeed 'cukku'.
If you want to listen to sAhitya Suddham and bhAva, please listen to the kRtis sung by one Mr Sarma - I do not know who he is - there are no albums; his name is not even heard in CM circles.
May be I have very peculiar ears. There is no present or (recent) past CM musician who measures upto him. His rendering of 'kELano hari tALanO' and 'sundari nI divya rUpamu' are treat to ears.
I request someone to throw more light on this person.
I have recorded a few kRtis sung by him - mostly from radio and WS.
arasi,
Thanks for the correction - it is indeed 'cukku'.
Last edited by vgvindan on 17 Jul 2007, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
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BMK is certainly the best among people I have heard I think (vgv - can you pl. upload recordings of this Sri. Sarma). I hear (and I believe although I cannot correlate intimately) he splits words correctly so that you can follow each word.
I wonder that for for conjunct words (e.g. brahmanandamandavE, swaramulArunokaTi), if the vowel prceding before the joining syllable is stretched, he would usually split it the two and sing it. This style would be different from the (more common) always single continuous intonation of the whole word - and for someone who prefer the latter may appear discontinuous (i.e. with too many breaks). That is how feel when I hear some of his renditions. But I think splitting does seem better.
The trouble with trying to always maintain single continuous intonation could be that if you are happen to run out of breath, and you arent aware of how the conjunction is formed, you end up breaking incorrectly. In fact, even if you don't break this can be a problem.
I can see this better if I imagine an arbitrary word in my native language like say vENugAnamadil (vENugAnam + adil meaning in that vENugAnam). If while one sings, the "na" is stretched as in vEnugA....na..................madil - then that "madil" starts sounding odder and odder (besides it also means some other word). It is better to do vEnugA...na.......m,adil (, => a tiny pause). Similarly swaramAlaru.......nu,okaTi is better than swaramulAru......nokaTi (i.e. if ru happens to be stretched because the melody of the krithi). I think singers like BMK maybe doing this more.
On a side note, btw, I wrote a (light hearted) post about sahitya mutilation this my blog http://sunson.wordpress.com . If you are interested, please check it out. If you are apprehensive about it and think it may be offensive, pl. remember to read the special note at the end. In spite of my disagreements with vgv on this thread, we are really not that far apart
Arun
I wonder that for for conjunct words (e.g. brahmanandamandavE, swaramulArunokaTi), if the vowel prceding before the joining syllable is stretched, he would usually split it the two and sing it. This style would be different from the (more common) always single continuous intonation of the whole word - and for someone who prefer the latter may appear discontinuous (i.e. with too many breaks). That is how feel when I hear some of his renditions. But I think splitting does seem better.
The trouble with trying to always maintain single continuous intonation could be that if you are happen to run out of breath, and you arent aware of how the conjunction is formed, you end up breaking incorrectly. In fact, even if you don't break this can be a problem.
I can see this better if I imagine an arbitrary word in my native language like say vENugAnamadil (vENugAnam + adil meaning in that vENugAnam). If while one sings, the "na" is stretched as in vEnugA....na..................madil - then that "madil" starts sounding odder and odder (besides it also means some other word). It is better to do vEnugA...na.......m,adil (, => a tiny pause). Similarly swaramAlaru.......nu,okaTi is better than swaramulAru......nokaTi (i.e. if ru happens to be stretched because the melody of the krithi). I think singers like BMK maybe doing this more.
On a side note, btw, I wrote a (light hearted) post about sahitya mutilation this my blog http://sunson.wordpress.com . If you are interested, please check it out. If you are apprehensive about it and think it may be offensive, pl. remember to read the special note at the end. In spite of my disagreements with vgv on this thread, we are really not that far apart
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 18 Jul 2007, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.
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vgv - for some reason I have not received your email. Pl. resend it if you can. My email address in the forum profile is indeed correct. Anyway in it is arunk underscore the-number-fifteen at yahoo dot com
Arun
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 18 Jul 2007, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
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My 2 cents. When a singer gets into raga elaboration, he/she goes for varieties and (s)he chooses many phrases then and there. Elaborately singing of raags were there during Saint Tyagaraja period. HE himself has created Ghana Pancha kritis which we celebrate as 'five gems' and what varieties in swaras to suit the lyrics. I have no doubt that a PERSON of his CALIBRE could have woven sangitis. May be later the vidwans added some to according to their convenience.
More so, HIS Contemprories (SS & MD) were also creating kritis.
Actually, when one is soaked in pure bhakti, the varieties automatically come to the fore. It is the imagination coupled with spantenous improvisation. When a kriti is sung without any further sangathi, it would be just nothing. This only once singing may not make a person getting soaked in music.
Even a poetry is read, each and every line is repeated at least once.
To sum up, Saint had really created sangitis.
More so, HIS Contemprories (SS & MD) were also creating kritis.
Actually, when one is soaked in pure bhakti, the varieties automatically come to the fore. It is the imagination coupled with spantenous improvisation. When a kriti is sung without any further sangathi, it would be just nothing. This only once singing may not make a person getting soaked in music.
Even a poetry is read, each and every line is repeated at least once.
To sum up, Saint had really created sangitis.
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Elsewhere, someone has talked about 'raw emotions' of Sri tyAgarAja. Musicians, in general, have not understood the mood of Sri tyAgarAja and MD in composing their kRtis - these are definitely not paper-pencil-eraser based. To cite an example of MD kRti, the following wordings occur in the kRti 'ambikAyAH abhayAmbikAyAH' - rAga kEdAram -Saint had really created sangitis.
This is a single epithet - how many do understand the profundity of these lines in order to render it correctly?yama niyamAdyaShTAnga yOga viShayAdi nigraha karaNa-
mUlAdhAra maNipUrakAdyabja bhEdana sphura kuNDalinI-
sahasra daLa brahma randhrastha kamalAntargata Siva sammELana-
gaLita paramAmRta bindu sEcana samujjRmbhita-
nADI mukha vikAsa karaNa nijAnubhUti yOginyAH
Yesterday I was listening (in WS) to the tyAgarAja kRti 'rAma nannu brOva' - hari kAmbhOji - sung by a famous musician.
I have referred to faulty rendering of the kRti in http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=964&p=2 - Post #37.
This artist also renders it as 'rAma nannu brOvarA' - repeats a number of times and then adds 'prEmatO'. The word 'prEmatO' is not at all there in the kRti.
I am citing this example to show how deep rooted the tradition is; people even change the kRti wordings 'looking' for sangatis.
sindhu,
Do you still feel that the Saint created this sangati?
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Given the fact that sangatis are constructed/sung in a way distort the meaning + the fact that there are so many variations of sangatis for same krithi among practioneers, it is quite safe to guess that many people freely add sangatis.
However, Thyagaraja supposedly did include sangatis in his krithis - and is recognized as a trailblazer in that regard. I don't know the precise historical evidence pointing to that . I guess this would be based on old manuscripts "close to his time" (e.g. Walajapet).
But at this point, i don't know how we can tell which were original and which weren't. People of course do claim many things about authenticity and originality, but their claims conflict.
It would not surprise me that most we hear today are not original but later additions - new ones or modifications. I don't know how CM was 250 years ago, but it is definitely quite interpretive and improvisatory and this I suspect may result in the general morphing over time.
I would suspect that if a modern composer were to hear his/her krithi additionally (but musically) interpreted by a musician with add new sangatis but while not changing mood and meaning, he/she may feel happy (assuming the presentation was good). So in that sense I would think in CM personal interpretation is ok and this perhaps leads to many people not feeling shy to add/change sangatis (?). But I am no composer - so this is just again a guess. Arasi, Drs and SangeetRasik may corroborate or disagree.
The trouble of course is that with this freedom, it ends up being a reinterpretation more often than one may think .
Arun
However, Thyagaraja supposedly did include sangatis in his krithis - and is recognized as a trailblazer in that regard. I don't know the precise historical evidence pointing to that . I guess this would be based on old manuscripts "close to his time" (e.g. Walajapet).
But at this point, i don't know how we can tell which were original and which weren't. People of course do claim many things about authenticity and originality, but their claims conflict.
It would not surprise me that most we hear today are not original but later additions - new ones or modifications. I don't know how CM was 250 years ago, but it is definitely quite interpretive and improvisatory and this I suspect may result in the general morphing over time.
I would suspect that if a modern composer were to hear his/her krithi additionally (but musically) interpreted by a musician with add new sangatis but while not changing mood and meaning, he/she may feel happy (assuming the presentation was good). So in that sense I would think in CM personal interpretation is ok and this perhaps leads to many people not feeling shy to add/change sangatis (?). But I am no composer - so this is just again a guess. Arasi, Drs and SangeetRasik may corroborate or disagree.
The trouble of course is that with this freedom, it ends up being a reinterpretation more often than one may think .
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 11 Aug 2007, 00:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Arun,
Reinterpretation to the point of distortion of sAhityA and of messing up original sangatis is a problem. However, I am all for reinterpretation (adding sangatis--within limits--by a capable performer would in my opinion make a song better). This can be achieved when the singer gets to have a grasp of the feeling which is found in the song. After all, we are assuming that with a vAggEyakArA (as oppsosed to a sAhitya kartA), a song and the tune come as one entity, welded together as it were. Other composers will agree with me on it. That is why, however superior the musician who sets the tunes to other sAhitya kartA's songs might be, it isn't that easy for him to 'feel' into the composition. My uncle happened to be a composer too, besides being a vocalist. That was why, as SSI remarked: V V Sadagopan's tuning of Ambujam Krishna's songs (the very first ones in Geetha Mala volume 1) was a difficult act to follow.
Reinterpretation to the point of distortion of sAhityA and of messing up original sangatis is a problem. However, I am all for reinterpretation (adding sangatis--within limits--by a capable performer would in my opinion make a song better). This can be achieved when the singer gets to have a grasp of the feeling which is found in the song. After all, we are assuming that with a vAggEyakArA (as oppsosed to a sAhitya kartA), a song and the tune come as one entity, welded together as it were. Other composers will agree with me on it. That is why, however superior the musician who sets the tunes to other sAhitya kartA's songs might be, it isn't that easy for him to 'feel' into the composition. My uncle happened to be a composer too, besides being a vocalist. That was why, as SSI remarked: V V Sadagopan's tuning of Ambujam Krishna's songs (the very first ones in Geetha Mala volume 1) was a difficult act to follow.
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Well it's nice that everyone is pouring their feelings "for sangathis introduced into Carnatic krithis".
According to what I read, krithis do not actually come under "Manodharma sangeetham" but under "Kalpita sangeetham". And all our great musicians have a lot of scope to show their talent under manodharma sangeetham like ragam, tanam pallavi, kalpana swarams, ragam singing before a krithi, neraval singing.
Musicians can bring out a lot of their variations in the neraval singing.
Probably 1 or 2 variations by each musician apart from the original version which would "exclusively bring out the meaning of those wonderful words of the Pallavi of any krithi" can be acceptable, that too not for all the krithis.
This is in my opinion to preserve the original works and pay our truest tributes to our great saintly composers. I feel there should be a balance of both Kalpita and Manodharma sangeetham.
According to what I read, krithis do not actually come under "Manodharma sangeetham" but under "Kalpita sangeetham". And all our great musicians have a lot of scope to show their talent under manodharma sangeetham like ragam, tanam pallavi, kalpana swarams, ragam singing before a krithi, neraval singing.
Musicians can bring out a lot of their variations in the neraval singing.
Probably 1 or 2 variations by each musician apart from the original version which would "exclusively bring out the meaning of those wonderful words of the Pallavi of any krithi" can be acceptable, that too not for all the krithis.
This is in my opinion to preserve the original works and pay our truest tributes to our great saintly composers. I feel there should be a balance of both Kalpita and Manodharma sangeetham.
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Friends,
Even if we assume, Saint tyAgarAja has not created sangitis, one can analyze the various kritis he has composed in particular raagas like DarbAr, HarikAmbOji, KaraharapriyA, PantuvarAli, kEdAram, varAli, kalyANi, ShankarAbharaNam etc., wherein he has applied superb varieties to each kriti, almost with no resemblance of each other. It is not that he just composed and some one else tuned his kritis.
Such has been his imagination and presentation of raags (in the outline itself). If we collectively take down each outline of particular raag kritis (say darbAr), the varieties would itself form various sangitis. He had been improvising bit by bit massively and bringing out the raaga lakshanA beyond comprehension.
Also my point is that He was very much understanding what He was composing (yAga yOga tyAga.. phalmOsangE), that too most of His kritis are in mother tounge. And if one understands about the lyrics coupled with raaga & thala g~nAna, there definitely comes the improvisation which would certainly invite any body to develop further.
Whether you call it God's gift, spantaneousness was a very well known factor to the Saint. When offered wordly wealth, there came the nidhi chAla sukhamA.. when He re - found the deities he was worshipping, His joy was bound less and He composed kanugontini - fittingly in bilahari. These are just samples and known to us.
This also makes us comtemplate that a Person with such applications and brillance, who could exhibit any raags even with only one sangati (out line - can we sum up), His mind set up would have definitely allowed/made him to swim through further and further with emotive and knowing well the contents, is there any doubt that He would have not have tried improvements and beautified the segments (pallavi, anu pallavi..). Plus kaVeri theeram, well tuned tanpurA and born for a certain noble cause..
At times, we artists get lost in singing His kritis and unknowingly get acquainted to some new outlines. That be case to us, His degrees of exploration - one can just visualize.
My sincere praNAms to Saint TyAgarAja.
-va-
Even if we assume, Saint tyAgarAja has not created sangitis, one can analyze the various kritis he has composed in particular raagas like DarbAr, HarikAmbOji, KaraharapriyA, PantuvarAli, kEdAram, varAli, kalyANi, ShankarAbharaNam etc., wherein he has applied superb varieties to each kriti, almost with no resemblance of each other. It is not that he just composed and some one else tuned his kritis.
Such has been his imagination and presentation of raags (in the outline itself). If we collectively take down each outline of particular raag kritis (say darbAr), the varieties would itself form various sangitis. He had been improvising bit by bit massively and bringing out the raaga lakshanA beyond comprehension.
Also my point is that He was very much understanding what He was composing (yAga yOga tyAga.. phalmOsangE), that too most of His kritis are in mother tounge. And if one understands about the lyrics coupled with raaga & thala g~nAna, there definitely comes the improvisation which would certainly invite any body to develop further.
Whether you call it God's gift, spantaneousness was a very well known factor to the Saint. When offered wordly wealth, there came the nidhi chAla sukhamA.. when He re - found the deities he was worshipping, His joy was bound less and He composed kanugontini - fittingly in bilahari. These are just samples and known to us.
This also makes us comtemplate that a Person with such applications and brillance, who could exhibit any raags even with only one sangati (out line - can we sum up), His mind set up would have definitely allowed/made him to swim through further and further with emotive and knowing well the contents, is there any doubt that He would have not have tried improvements and beautified the segments (pallavi, anu pallavi..). Plus kaVeri theeram, well tuned tanpurA and born for a certain noble cause..
At times, we artists get lost in singing His kritis and unknowingly get acquainted to some new outlines. That be case to us, His degrees of exploration - one can just visualize.
My sincere praNAms to Saint TyAgarAja.
-va-
Last edited by V_ANNASAMY on 18 Aug 2007, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
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From a composer's point of view, I have this to say. Yes, a song can have added sangatis. Of course, the neraval line gets its share, and even if the musician heaps it with sangatis, since we are conditioned to listening to neravals, it does not seem to matter much (yet, the purpose of neraval singing is to heighten the emotional impact!). The question is, has the artiste chosen the right line? When it comes to the Trinity and old composers, we mostly hear them sing the well-established neraval lines. What if they choose a line which is appealing to them musically and isn't a vital line in the song? Our forum's vidwan-vidUshi members are sensitive to sAhityam, for sure. However, even among stalwarts, there were (and are) those who do not mesh with the sAhityam. When it comes to neraval and one's own sangatis, however impressive the sangatis, unless the content of the line yields to it, it may not work well. That is, a musically superior sangati cannot wing it without the words coming alive with it. Padac chEdam aside, picking words of no emotional content or emphasizing those words in a kriti purely on the basis of the notes cluster which seem to appeal to the performer to elaborate on, falls flat. The modern day composers have that to be concerned about. Other than that, with a bhAvA minded musician who is sensitive to the composition, the song gains stature...
Last edited by arasi on 14 Aug 2007, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.
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A very important point, especially from my perspective. The ultimate objective of music is to convey emotional meanings, not dry intellectual ones. In CM, the overwhelming "emotion" has been the bhakti aspect though other emotions can be worked up leading into the bhakti aspect. As a "modern" composer (in the sense of the themes considered), one of my objectives is to accentuate non-"bhakti" themes as independent and equally (if not more, in the current age) valid facets of human experience. This is rather exciting and non-trivial to do, since over the centuries classical CM has evolved itself into an "organism" that is very well adapted to conveying "godly" themes. Careful consideration of details of ragas and their relation to the sahitya is of importance for handling "non-religious" themes.arasi wrote:When it comes to neraval and one's own sangatis, however impressive the sangatis, unless the content of the line yields to it, it may not work well. That is, a musically superior sangati cannot wing it without the words coming alive with it.
That being said, almost every composer has her/his "quirks". For example, when dealing with subjects related to the western part of India (Gujarat/Maharashtra) etc, I only use ragas like Surati and Saurashtra which originate from those regions. My compositions such as "dhirambanim" (Saurashtra), "vallabham" (Surati), and "bhimarajena" (Saurashtra) are examples. In such cases, the subject had better be somewhat attuned to the mood/spirit of these ragas!
As a prime example of "superior sangati" that is not supported by the underlying sahitya, I would quote the "spurious" sangatis added to MD's composition "vatapi ganapatim".
SR
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- Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01
Dear rasikas,
As far as Sri Thyagaraja and sangathis are concerned, as far as I know, all of these great saints created great krithis spontaneously.
Sri Thyagaraja definitely would have sung variations(sangathis) in the particular lines of the krithi to convey the mood and the words he meant to God and again which came out spontaneously.
Those original sangathis probably are lost to most extent.
Nandy
As far as Sri Thyagaraja and sangathis are concerned, as far as I know, all of these great saints created great krithis spontaneously.
Sri Thyagaraja definitely would have sung variations(sangathis) in the particular lines of the krithi to convey the mood and the words he meant to God and again which came out spontaneously.
Those original sangathis probably are lost to most extent.
Nandy
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- Joined: 10 Jun 2007, 12:23
Even if we assume, Saint tyAgarAja has not created sangitis, one can analyze the various kritis he has composed in particular raagas like DarbAr, HarikAmbOji, KaraharipriyA, PantuvarAli, kEdAram, varAli, kalyANi, ShankarAbharaNam etc., wherein he has applied superb varieties to each kriti, almost with no resemblance of each other.
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... elara1.htm
On just 16th, I went to one vocal concert. It started off with a Varnam (in a ragam I couldn't recognise), a Sanskrit krti on Ganapati set to Nattai, and a two other Sanskrit krtis — in Ananda Bhairavi, Poorvi Kalyani. A request was made, for an aTANA krti, and for a sAramati krti, both taken. Both in Sanskit. I had enjoyed only the aTANA krti until then (and that too not intensely). And then came two Tyagaraja krtis — mAkElarA vicAramu? and tattvameruga taramA?.
But mAkElarA touched my heart the moment the first sangati was rendered. The second sangati heightened the effect, the third sustained it. The fourth diminished the heightened effect. But there was a fifth, and a sixth, maybe a seventh — which finally seemed like just cluster of svarams fitting with the mUrcana, rendered at breakneck speed and zero emotion. Then I got a shrewd hint what the problem really was, what stopped me enjoying the concert.
Then on, I learned to shut my ears to the last few "sangatis". It wasn't much use: what followed tattvameruga taramA with an RTP in Suratti, tishrajAti catushra naDai tripuTa tALam. The violinist included portions from "shrI venkaTa girIshama" and "paarvai onRE pOdumE!" in his rAgam; the audience enjoyed the inclusions rather than frowned on them.
After the RTP was a madhyamAvati krti, also Tyagaraja's, then the mangalam.
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivk ... elara1.htm
On just 16th, I went to one vocal concert. It started off with a Varnam (in a ragam I couldn't recognise), a Sanskrit krti on Ganapati set to Nattai, and a two other Sanskrit krtis — in Ananda Bhairavi, Poorvi Kalyani. A request was made, for an aTANA krti, and for a sAramati krti, both taken. Both in Sanskit. I had enjoyed only the aTANA krti until then (and that too not intensely). And then came two Tyagaraja krtis — mAkElarA vicAramu? and tattvameruga taramA?.
But mAkElarA touched my heart the moment the first sangati was rendered. The second sangati heightened the effect, the third sustained it. The fourth diminished the heightened effect. But there was a fifth, and a sixth, maybe a seventh — which finally seemed like just cluster of svarams fitting with the mUrcana, rendered at breakneck speed and zero emotion. Then I got a shrewd hint what the problem really was, what stopped me enjoying the concert.
Then on, I learned to shut my ears to the last few "sangatis". It wasn't much use: what followed tattvameruga taramA with an RTP in Suratti, tishrajAti catushra naDai tripuTa tALam. The violinist included portions from "shrI venkaTa girIshama" and "paarvai onRE pOdumE!" in his rAgam; the audience enjoyed the inclusions rather than frowned on them.
After the RTP was a madhyamAvati krti, also Tyagaraja's, then the mangalam.
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The composers of krtis certainly know best about their own krtis, and their own sangatis will have been the most suited to what they meant to sing. But I am not against the artist performing their own sangatis out and out.
If it becomes a common practice for artists to give a brief talk about the meaning of the song they're going to sing, we can expect "manOdharma sangatis" that are between fair and as beautiful as the rest of krti itself.
Also, I wished the melody artists would take their time before they began any new improvisation.
If it becomes a common practice for artists to give a brief talk about the meaning of the song they're going to sing, we can expect "manOdharma sangatis" that are between fair and as beautiful as the rest of krti itself.
Also, I wished the melody artists would take their time before they began any new improvisation.
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- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Srikant,
On your point about hurrying, I agree. While certain rAgAs are suited for singing at a fast pace, breakneck speed is not pleasing. It seems to me, the fast ones need more care in handling. 'Faster' might take away the beauty of the rAgA.
Though giving the meaning of each song in a recital may not be practical, it is nice to know you care about sAhityA!
On your point about hurrying, I agree. While certain rAgAs are suited for singing at a fast pace, breakneck speed is not pleasing. It seems to me, the fast ones need more care in handling. 'Faster' might take away the beauty of the rAgA.
Though giving the meaning of each song in a recital may not be practical, it is nice to know you care about sAhityA!
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- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Yes, 108talas. pATAntarA plays an important role too. Imaginative sangatis based on solid pATAntarA make the grade.
Which brings to mind the number of sangatis sung in vAtApi gaNapathim bhajE that Sangeet Rasik mentions in his post as spurious. Depends on how well they are constructed (pATAntaram, again!). I have delighted in hearing any number of sangatis in the opening line by MMI and others. It is the right place for them in the kriti too since the pallavi has just one line. The sangatis do not meddle with the bhAvA of the song. The repetition of the line is like an invocation. Executed the right way, it is like adding colorful flowers to a garland. Not only that. It is enjoyable to sing and to hear those sangatis at the start of the song as if to prepare ourselves to the majesty of the kriti before it unfolds...
Which brings to mind the number of sangatis sung in vAtApi gaNapathim bhajE that Sangeet Rasik mentions in his post as spurious. Depends on how well they are constructed (pATAntaram, again!). I have delighted in hearing any number of sangatis in the opening line by MMI and others. It is the right place for them in the kriti too since the pallavi has just one line. The sangatis do not meddle with the bhAvA of the song. The repetition of the line is like an invocation. Executed the right way, it is like adding colorful flowers to a garland. Not only that. It is enjoyable to sing and to hear those sangatis at the start of the song as if to prepare ourselves to the majesty of the kriti before it unfolds...
Last edited by arasi on 18 Aug 2007, 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
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In classical music there is always improvisation. And it is always a delight to hear well constructed sangathis not interfering with the bhava of the line. We then have to include the compositions into Manodharma sangeetham to some extent. We cannot entirely call it Kalpitha sangeetham as mentioned by great people.