Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

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srkris
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Post by srkris »

Suji Ram wrote:Bhaja gOvidam of Sri Shankaracharya comes to my mind immediately. (I find this composition secular when seen in a different angle).
Bhaja Govindam is a philosophical song, not a devotiontal one. It is therefore secular (though not irreligious/against religion per se). I am even inclined to think it is less about worshipping Govinda than about sharing the thoughts of Govinda as found in the Bhagavad Gita et al (multiple meanings are possible for the root "bhaj-" which may not entirely be apparent at first glance.

Also the use of the phrase dukrnj karane refers to actions and their use (karma vs jnana) which also must be apparent from a glance in Panini's Dhatupatha.

Otherwise why should it be called Moha Mudgara? Its less about bhakti (as in blind bhakti as the end-all approach) and more about discernment and discrimination (jnana) as the pathway to salvation.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

as in blind bhakti as the end-all approach
srkris,
Wonderful!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vidya, SR; Given what you two shared so excellently about the pecularities/difficulties about expressing concepts directly in Sanskrit, can you indulge in this: As I mentioned before, the composition in Tamil 'Oh Oh kAlamE, Sahana, Mayuram Vedanayakam Pillai', sounds to me is all about concepts and is a type of composition that Vidya is looking for. What will its appropriate translation in Sanskrit be like, especially when set to music? I am just curious. May be, both of you can attempt it and share your creations here. It need not be a translation but an equivalent composition carrying the same concepts.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

srkris wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:Bhaja gOvidam of Sri Shankaracharya comes to my mind immediately. (I find this composition secular when seen in a different angle).
Its less about bhakti (as in blind bhakti as the end-all approach) and more about discernment and discrimination (jnana) as the pathway to salvation.
Both correct. "Govinda" is the carrier of the idea, not the theme itself. Similarly, a composition such as "chinmayanandasya bhakto bhavami" has little to do with "bhakti" despite the fact that it starts with an assertion of being a "bhakta".

All (or most) current CM compositions lead to the idea of spiritual union with the divine (even many of the more "amorous" padas and javalis, and indeed the raas-lila of Krishna himself). This spiritual theme is now well-established in CM. My belief is that other intellectual themes should get their due place as well.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:As I mentioned before, the composition in Tamil 'Oh Oh kAlamE, Sahana, Mayuram Vedanayakam Pillai', sounds to me is all about concepts and is a type of composition that Vidya is looking for. What will its appropriate translation in Sanskrit be like, especially when set to music?
As I mentioned , I do not know Tamil, hence it is very difficult for me to wrap my mind around the spirit of the composition in order to translate its essence into Sanskrit. CML or DRS would definitely be "Go-To" persons on this one !

SR

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Coolkarni,
I take the privilege of asking a few questions to you because I do not know others well.

(1) You have said that on 8th there will be a concert by Thathwamasi. What is the guarantee based on which you made that statement? (I am not casting doubt about the musician.) By the time we answer the question satisfactorily, 8th would have come and gone, but let us assume that it will not come till we answer it.

(2) What is the essential difference between Re 1/- note (which for purposes have gone out of circulation) and notes of any other denomination? I will answer it - Re 1/- note is the only one issued by the Government of India - all other notes are issued by RBI based on that Re 1/- denomination. Should the Government of India collapse - assume for a moment it does - what is the use of truck loads of notes held by people?

(3) Did I hear gold? Assume that all women threw away all the gold ornaments as worthless Earth, what happens to gold as a bartering medium?

I can understand your annoyance as to why I am wasting time of people here in the forum. Yesterday Ramakrishnan made a comment about 'blind faith'. Aren't we all functioning based on this blind faith? Every moment of our lives is based on this blind faith - we all glibly think otherwise.

This blind faith - I am not talking about fundamentalist who hold on to the form forgetting the substance - is the one which made 'Padma Pada' - the foremost of disciple of Adi Sankaracharya - to walk on the Ganga in spate - You may dismiss it as cock and bull story. BTW, it is stated that Bhaja Govindam was composed not only by Adi Sankaracharya and other disciples also. There is a statement - kincidapi murAri samarca - is it jnAna or bhakti?

When Bharati said 'bhakti paNNi pizhaikkac connAL, payan karudAdu uzhaikkac connAL' was he also having blind faith?

When Krishna said 'sarva dharmAn parityajya mAmEkaM SaraNam vraja' was he making a false promise?

When Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, reportedly ate faeces, was he displaying blind faith? Isn't that worm squirming in faeces and we are made up of one stuff?

Are we going to remain slaves in this Universe of blind faith or participate in the grand sport that is being enacted fully surrendering ourselves to the lakshya of blind faith and declare -

na mE kulkarNyasti trishu lOkeshu kincana |
nAnavAptaM avAptavyam varta Eva ca karmaNi ||

SR,
This is my response to your post. Please try to fathom Indian wisdom and understand why it is still as fresh and vibrant as a new born baby. Kindly do not declare that - this will die - that will lose hold. The whole edifice has been built up by artisans of much greater prowess and knowledge than maya and visvakarma - put together. Music is no different.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

VGV- That CM will die is purely SR's opinion. That you can save it through compositions on Ambani and Manmohan are also his views. That such compositions express deep ideas that require you to make fantastic leaps of abstraction denied to men of lesser faculty, are also his thoughts. There are many of us who still don't agree with some of these assertions. I don't believe we are going to convince each other as these are subjective topics and we all have strong views. The only thing that we all appear to agree on is that CM should also include secular themes. Let us just listen to all the views and if it doesn't fit in with our model, feel free to reject it.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Sbala,
sbala wrote:The only thing that we all appear to agree on is that CM should also include secular themes.
That is the one and only point of this thread.
sbala wrote:VGV- That CM will die is purely SR's opinion. That you can save it through compositions on Ambani and Manmohan are also his views.
I think there is a strong misrepresentation of my views here. I didn't say that CM will die and vanish within a certain period of time. I said it will not remain a vigorous and healthy art form if secular themes of many types are not included. Also, claiming that I said "it will be saved (whatever that means) through compositions on Ambani and Manmohan" is a gross misrepresentation. These are most certainly not my views, so kindly do not state them as such.
That such compositions express deep ideas that require you to make fantastic leaps of abstraction denied to men of lesser faculty, are also his thoughts.
Again, this is not an appropriate representation of my views by any means. I am not sure where these statements are coming from, but I going to ignore this type of "third-person mudslinging". I have made it clear that my contributions address (hopefully in some small measure) a larger issue in our classical music.
There are many of us who still don't agree with some of these assertions.
If one wishes to put up a straw man and then shoot it down, then I agree that provides an unusual kind of satisfaction.

I hope that more "discerning" readers (who are capable of the said "fantastic leaps of abstraction") will ignore this type of chatter which pulls the entire discussion down a few notches.

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vgvindan wrote:SR,
This is my response to your post. Please try to fathom Indian wisdom and understand why it is still as fresh and vibrant as a new born baby. Kindly do not declare that - this will die - that will lose hold. The whole edifice has been built up by artisans of much greater prowess and knowledge than maya and visvakarma - put together. Music is no different.
VGV,

If you have indeed read my posts through, you might see that I am not making any unwarranted or unsubstantiated claims. The purpose of discussions is to address "Secular Themes in CM". As I have mentioned several times, I am not trying to plug for/against any composer or musician X or Y. Any specific individuals mentioned were for purposes of clarification. If you do not agree, that is fine too.

Regarding "Indian wisdom", my impression (being an Indian) is that it is continuously evolving, including said "edifices" built up by artisans of great prowess. If you believe that Indian wisdom has already achieved everything there is worthwhile to achieve and built all edifices worth building, then you must be truly in a state of exalted bliss (saccidananda). While I fully agree that I might not be fathoming this wisdom in entirety, I would like (with my little knowledge) to contribute towards evolving it further. I am heartened to know that irrespective of the success of such misguided efforts, I can always return to take refuge in the "perfect wisdom" which already exists and is fathomed by you in full detail.

SR

kjrao
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Post by kjrao »

My 2 cents:

1. As a first step, secular themes may be introduced in teaching basics of CM . If such teaching material can be introduced in schools and children get attracted to it, we may then develop this idea further.

2. Secular themes may be more appropriate in Dance Dramas and the related musical compositions can be in CM . This is just to give a taste of CM (because of the limited scope within the drama) - I am sure such experiments are being done already.

3. Very few secular themes can stand the test of time - there will always be changes from generation to generation - along with it the taste for a particular genre of music will also change.

4. The sahitya of CM is like a Mantra. For the uninitiated, it's meaning is very limited.For that reason, one can't call it a limitation.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

rajumds wrote:3. Till about 100 years back CM concerts were mainly RTP based which would not have had bakthi or bhavam.(to the extend of Trinity's kritis)
I was thinking along these lines as well while reading this thread and the previous thread where this started. Your point is what we hear/read from accounts of the music scene of the 19th century ( and before probably ). I am sure there were religious theme based singing in other contexts but atleast the royalty sponsored CM concerts were mainly RTP based. I do not recall reading what the structure of the temple concerts were. Probably RTP based.

What were the women singers, mostly from the devadasi community, singing in CM concerts ( and not dance )? Padams and Javalis or were they singing the Trinity's compositions or compositions of the Nattuvanars from their family/community. We have heard that RTP was primarily practised by male musicians then.

One data point we can gather is: In the early part of the 20th century, HMV seemed to have exhaustively recorded all the female singers they could find ( this is before DKP, MSS etc. ). The records were quite popular and so HMV searched wide and deep to find capable singers and recorded them. If there is a list, we can use that to guage the 'themes' of the repertoire of those singers.

So, it will be interesting to know the history of the 19th century on the prevalence and the frequency of singing of the Trinity's krithis in concerts. Or this was mostly a 20th century phenomenon?

sbala
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Post by sbala »

SR,
I have lot of respect for your views and I do not want to enter into any mudslinging. Maybe, the tone of my post came across as such and if that's the case, I apologise and the mods can go ahead and delete the post.

However, to claim that you never said CM will die when you have made this statement "Religious-based art forms invariably die if they do not change into more secular forms." is a bit hard to understand . Maybe, you didn't mean it that way but I did assume you meant CM will suffer the same fate. Again, I'm sorry if this was a misinterpretation.

knandago2001
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Post by knandago2001 »

“CM needs to be reclaimed by a wider, secular and creative critical massâ€

srkris
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Post by srkris »

vgvindan wrote:Yesterday Ramakrishnan made a comment about 'blind faith'. Aren't we all functioning based on this blind faith? Every moment of our lives is based on this blind faith - we all glibly think otherwise.
I didnt decry blind faith. It may be a necessity in our day to day lives to recognize that blind faith exists. What I meant is that there is no reason to glorify it either. We definitely dont need any Adi Shankara or Bhaja Govindam if we just need to act on blind faith. In fact we dont need anything at all to support a blind faith.

Blind faith in our lives is more a necessity rather than a virtue. And we are attempting to make a virtue of a necessity. In spite of all human failings, we still have a brain, and however imperfect it is, we can reason to an extent. I wanted to say that the Bhaja Govindam therefore is not a devotional song, it is a philosophical song (with perhaps devotional undertones), its main import is philosophical and not devotional.

The older traditions (of the Vedas and Upanishads) are primarily based on reasoning and not on beliefs. There is no reason to impose puranic ideas and approaches upon on vedic ones and declare that everything is about bhakti. Let me reiterate again that I am not decrying Bhakti or beliefs, however blind they may be. I am saying that to see bhakti in all ancient literature is only to delude ourselves. We have had a very highly diverse literary and musical output even in historical times.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

SR,
I did not say that Indian Wisdom is static and did not evolve or could not or would not or should not evolve. Every organism undergoes evolution every moment. But to declare that if it did not evolve in so and so direction, it will die is a dogmatic statement. It is advisable that those who want to genuinely participate and contribute in the evolutionary process, avoid such statements.

Mother nature reveals her secrets to those who approach her like a child - some scientist made this statement - I do not know who.

I have seen a few posts in praise of Ambanis and Lalu Prasad Yadav on these forums. I sincerely hope this is not what meant by Secular themes. There is nothing wrong, but such kritis will have to be rewritten every five years (MP/MLA tenure) or when there is partitiion in the family.
Last edited by vgvindan on 06 Feb 2008, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

srkris,
I request you to read Adi Sankara's Sivananda Lahari and then revisit your opinion.

vidya
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Post by vidya »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Vidya,

[Personally speaking - of my 37 compositions, I usually compose in the "adjectival" style. However, you can see examples of the "narrative" style as well, see my composition on Subhas Bose.

SR
Rather than terms such as adjectival vs narrative let me try to call this 'Templated approach to compositions'. It seems to me sanskrt compositions were largely stuck
to the 'mAmava X. or 'Y bhAvaye/bhAvayAmi/insert other verb here' in the pallavi, supporting anupallavi and the rest are the sahasranAmam type phrases.The few exceptions to this are MD's 'Sadhu jana citta', 'mAye tvam yAhi' (musically and lyrically a very different template) and Sadashiva brahmendra's 'kElati piNDANDe' .Interestingly enough all three are philosophical themes. Even in the bhAvayE, samraksha templates Dikshitar innovated in the form of groups or vibhaktis.

This is where I think Tyagaraja was a sheer genius. He could begin his kRtis with offbeat lines such as 'lEkanA ninu jUtukonnAru' or 'mA jAnaki cetta baTTaga maharAjuvaitivi' and yet give
a complete melodic entity.

Other than Balamurali Krishna I hardly find this kind of lyrical innovation today. 200 years from these composers we stick to the same templates, move from
praising a deity to praising a person. So yes I do find this kind of approach to secular themes rather uninspiring.

Vasanthakokilam, will look at the oh kAlame and respond later.

sindhu
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Post by sindhu »

MayUram vEdanAyam piLLai songs can be suited to any Religion, God, which are unique.

Other composers had chosen a particular God and described their qualities.

Some songs are :

1) karuNAlaya nidhiyE - HindOLam - Adi
2) dayaipuriya innum - MalayamArutham - Roopakam

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

kjrao wrote:My 2 cents:

1. As a first step, secular themes may be introduced in teaching basics of CM . If such teaching material can be introduced in schools and children get attracted to it, we may then develop this idea further.
That is worth thinking about.
3. Very few secular themes can stand the test of time - there will always be changes from generation to generation - along with it the taste for a particular genre of music will also change.
As long as human beings exist, secular themes will always exist. It is not at all important that the themes themselves "stand the test of time". What is important is that there is a mechanism for continuity. The fact that the "religious" music of the past has changed in genre many times should be enough evidence that "religious" music genres don't stand the test of time either. In 1635 Venkatamakhin declared the four cornerstones of classical music to be Alapa, Thaya, Gita, and Prabandha. Today nobody is performing thaya and gita and prabandha in concert format - even alapa has changed in form from what it meant in those times.
4. The sahitya of CM is like a Mantra. For the uninitiated, it's meaning is very limited.For that reason, one can't call it a limitation.
It is essential to "de-mantra"ize CM. Sooner the better. From our experience of the "ultimate mantras" i.e. vedas, whose active influence on India is pretty much dead at this point, it is essential to avoid presenting CM as a "mantra" understandable to only the select "initiated" few.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 06 Feb 2008, 18:39, edited 1 time in total.

vidya
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Post by vidya »

Sangeet Rasik,
My previous post somehow got cut off.. I'll try to post something in Sanskrt to elaborate what I was trying to say..Say I am trying to write some lyrics in sanskrt as if Kalyani (the ragam) was narrating her history..

mama nAmadhEyam kalyANi, O rasika.
mama caritra vishEsham vadAmi, shruNu

gOvinda tanaya nindita caritram
gOvinda mArga tyAgarAja vandita caritram
bhAvendu jita mati dIkshitOpAsita caritram

na mE turushka rAgam na mE adhama rAgam
naravara vishAla sancArOttama rAgam

gOvinda tanaya - Venkatamakhin
gOvunda mArga - Sangaraha cuDAmani

In this process I frequently ended up being challenged in trying to express what I wanted to express. Perhaps a reflection of my limited/rusty sanskrt vocabulary . I found that the same thought process flowed much more freely in Tamil. Again I typically stop with writing poetry as I am rather musically challenged in a lot of ways.

My concluding posts:

1.Whether you write secular or religious or musical theme why are'nt we as a generation emulating the trinity
in their 'out of the box' thinking and stop with emulating in their templates and contents?
2.If you want to compose please do not stop at the lowest rung of creativity.
3.A hundred theoritical arguments apart, this is a suggestion to the active members of this site:
Why don't we take up some theme of the month in the innovations forum and let the various folks here take a jab at composing, the more the languages the better
(The more languages the better and see where it goes, it certainly would be a good exercise)
Last edited by vidya on 06 Feb 2008, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vgvindan wrote:SR,
I did not say that Indian Wisdom is static and did not evolve or could not or would not or should not evolve. Every organism undergoes evolution every moment. But to declare that if it did not evolve in so and so direction, it will die is a dogmatic statement. It is advisable that those who want to genuinely participate and contribute in the evolutionary process, avoid such statements.

Mother nature reveals her secrets to those who approach her like a child - some scientist made this statement - I do not know who.

I have seen a few posts in praise of Ambanis and Lalu Prasad Yadav on these forums. I sincerely hope this is not what meant by Secular themes. There is nothing wrong, but such kritis will have to be rewritten every five years (MP/MLA tenure) or when there is partitiion in the family.
VGV,

I think we have reached the limit of discussions given our current positions. I have substantiated my specific claims as to why a specific direction (secular themes) should be taken. It is up to individuals to examine the claims, consider the history of "relgious" culture, and come to their own conclusions. However, to state that people who try to take a different path have not obtained a sufficient understanding of the "secrets" of the previous one, is pure obscurantism.

It is interesting you should mention the two specific compositions again. I have discussed them earlier, and explained their background. There are also many other compositions posted, which of course escaped your scrutiny. Someone who does not understand the difference between secular composition (and its purpose) and religious composition, will not see the point of . If you think the purpose of the kritis was to "praise" person XYZ and rewrite such a composition every 10 years, you are wholly mistaken.

Furthermore, as I said, the obsession with "kritis that last for ever" is extremely strange and indeed a drawback of CM. I hope you will understand that secular themes are of undying interest in art as long as human beings exist - this is experience throughout the world. Mechanisms for continuity of the art form, which are compatible with continuous social change, are far more valuable than sticking to a narrow set of "religious" themes with the justification that the compositions themselves will last longer in the imagination (that is not particularly important to me).

SR

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

So my take is that the bhakti movement had high ideals in philosophy but shied away from sociological issues and resistant to change.

Again the problem with prEma bhakti also is not just the philosophical explanation that male actually is just a mere symbolic word. The associated sociological issue that arises here is this. A goddess is a pati vrta and hence a male devotee is not allowed to show this prEma bhakti whereas Gods are free to move around.It is this pretext and subtext that many of us cannot agree.
Bhakti, or Divine love, though in itself one only, manifests itself in the following eleven different forms : (a) Love of the glorification of the Lord's blessed qualities (guNa mAhAtmyAsakti) (b) Love of His enchanting Beauty (rUpAsakti) (c) Love of Worship (pUjAsakti) (d) Love of Constant remembrance (smaraNAsakti) (e) Love of Service (dAsyAsakti) (f) Love of Him as a friend (sakhyAsakti) (g) Love of Him as a son (vAtsalyAsakti) (h) Love of Him as that of a wife for her husband (kAntAsakti) (j) Love of self surrender to Him (Atma nivEdanAsakti) (k) Love of complete absorption in Him (tan-mayatAsakti) (l) Love of pain of separation from Him (parama virahAsakti) - Narada Bhakti Sutras (82) (Translation by Swami Tyagisananda)

Vivekananda said 'let there be as many religions as there are human beings' (or words to that effect). Who can stop one from adopting any of these paths or divising one's own? Bhakti is after all a very personal matter between devotee and the Lord. No one, no socieity can come in between.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

.Whether you write secular or religious or musical theme why are'nt we as a generation emulating the trinity in their 'out of the box' thinking and stop with emulating in their templates and contents?
May I suggest? The inspiration for a piece of poetry comes when one is performing rAga Alapana. Raga comes first and Kriti next.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

A strange utilitarian World!
When it is needed to justify our day-to-day existence, we do not mind adopting 'faith'. But if the same faith is reposed on God by a person based on his understanding and utility, we call it 'blind faith'.

Kettle calling pot black?

uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

vidya wrote:If you want to compose please do not stop at the lowest rung of creativity.
Such advise I hope includes the totality of the musical experience.

The lyrical content of musical compositions I should imagine are at the lower rungs of poetry ? Can't one look for much more creative poetry towards Kalidasa, etc.. than say towards MD ?

Likewise, the philosophical content of bhatki-based compositions is limited too. One can bypass Carnatic music completely, immerse oneself in the study of the upanisads, yoga vashishta, Shankara, vidyaranya, and so on.

Likewise, the bhakti content of bhajan sessions is often much more sincere and heart-felt than Carnatic music, for it is bereft of any musical pretensions.

As for spiritual upliftment, there's greater upliftment in silence of a Ramana. And Carnatic or any other music feels completely out of place when hiking in the silence of the forest or amidst the glaciers in the Himalayas.

So what's special about Carnatic music ? I think it is the totality of the experience that is strung together via the medium of..... did I mention music ?

Any "composing" that relegates music itself to the back seat strikes me as quite weird. This is where the trinity excelled most and this is what great contemporary musicians trying a hand at composing are awed by. I'm no musician or composer and I don't understand a word of telugu and I don't care much for bhakti but everytime I learn a Tyagaraja kriti I marvel at the superb flow of the music and the way the rAga is brought out and in spite of myself I choke up, unable to proceed further. I am compelled to believe therefore, that some of that special "life" in those compositions have been imparted by the transcendental bhakti of the composer. This feeling is rarely matched by ordinary compositions.

As for secular themes, there are social justice issues, gender issues, environmental issues, conservation issues, biodiversity, sustainable equitable "development"... the list is endless. Somehow, I have to live this schizophrenic life where the Carnatic world bears aboslutely no connection with such important issues of the day. Therefore, it is laudable that Sangeet Rasik has tried to at least talk about "secular" themes. I really think it is very important to connect all issues in an attempt to lead a wholesome life.

We should worry as much as is possible about the totality of the Karmic chain that affects us. In North American temples, the most widely used substance is styrofoam. Huge mounds of it. Those of us who worry about landfills and biodegradability know that styrofoam takes millions of years to degrade and it is a petroleum byproduct. Both modern evils. Styrofoam will remain in the landfill long after the temple and the puranas have disappeared. But the "devotees" who go to the temple and partake of the "prasad" couldn't be bothered to get better informed about this. In fact, you might even convince them that styrofoam is an ancient "Vedic" substance :-).

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Vidya,

Thanks for the effort. Let me try to explain in a different way.

I fully comprehend your point. When I was a teenager, I was somewhat frustrated (are you are) by the seemingly "recurrent" or "templated" compositions. I had mentally categorized (half in jest and half in frustration) Dikshitar as "Mr. Bhajeham", Shastri as "Mr. Nannubrova", and Swati as "Mr. Pahimam". The compositions of Tyagaraja seemed to directly speak to me without the seemingly roundabout approach of compound words and personality-based dissemination of ideas.

Later on it became clearer to me that this had little to do with who was more or less creative, but rather had to do with the objective. MD, ST, and SS used the "templated" approach because it greatly suits their objective of disseminating spiritual ideas through puranic legends. Tyagaraja used the "direct" approach because he went out into the street to do "bhajan", wherein a direct dialogue with his audience would generate "easier results" in the manner of draksha rather than narikela.

Note that MD and Tyagaraja were friends, they are supposed to have listened regularly to each other's compositions. I am pretty sure neither had a feeling that one was at a "lower rung" than the other. At the same time, MD did not deviate (for the most part) from his approach, and Tyagaraja from his. Note that Tyagaraja had no lack of Sanskrit ability. Most likely, both he and MD could converse fluently in Sanskrit. However, when he composed in Sanskrit he also adopted the same "templated" approach. That should tell you something about the reasons for adopting the "epithet"-based (or "templated" as you call it) approach.
In this process I frequently ended up being challenged in trying to express what I wanted to express. Perhaps a reflection of my limited/rusty sanskrt vocabulary . I found that the same thought process flowed much more freely in Tamil. Again I typically stop with writing poetry as I am rather musically challenged in a lot of ways.
Clearly, I am not in a position to advise you why you are challenged by this. As I mentioned, this is not particularly difficult to do. The bhagavad gita is written in this style (with the adavntage that it can afford to ramble on for 18 chapters unlike the CM composer who has 5 minutes to express his idea). The upanishads are written in a contemplative style, sometimes switching to dialogue between characters.

Let me make it clear that I am all for different approaches to compositions. If you decide to compose in the "direct" style satisfying the technical guidelines, you have my full support. This thread is regarding overarching secular themes, not to promote the specific composition style of one composer or other.

What is strongly disagree with is your notion of "templated approaches" being on a "lower rung" of creativity. As I have explained above, this has nothing to do with creativity. Simply two different methods that appeal to different people and have different objectives.

Now, my specific responses to your concluding points:
1.Whether you write secular or religious or musical theme why are'nt we as a generation emulating the trinity
in their 'out of the box' thinking and stop with emulating in their templates and contents?
Emulation is not the root cause of what you see today. As with all change, it is gradual. Some elements of the "older" approaches are retained, some others are changed. As I said, I am not against your approach to composition. Please go ahead. As I also mentioned, I will be happy to compose in this manner as well. Hopefully it will convince you that both approaches have merit.
2.If you want to compose please do not stop at the lowest rung of creativity.
I think we all understand this. However, your notion of "epithet"-based composition style (regardless of theme) being on a "lower rung" is not well considered. Possibly, your own frustration with your perceived linguistic capabilities drives you to this assertion. I am pretty "catholic" in my reception to new ideas, and I have never claimed that secular themes are "superior" to religious ones. I only claimed that they need to be emphasized more and are equally valid in CM experience. I urge you to take a similar approach to the technical issues such as composition style (which are not really the primary subject of this thread).
3.A hundred theoritical arguments apart, this is a suggestion to the active members of this site:
Why don't we take up some theme of the month in the innovations forum and let the various folks here take a jab at composing, the more the languages the better (The more languages the better and see where it goes, it certainly would be a good exercise)
Sure, please go ahead. I personally do not compose for a specific occasion or as an exercise. I prefer to "craft" my compositions over a long period of time. One point that has not been mentioned (but I am sure you understand) is that it is ultimately about music as an art. Simply composing a nice poem is no use if it does not seamlessly integrate with the pure music.

Best Wishes,
SR

vidya
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Post by vidya »

Uday,
Since this thread was about secular themes I referred to innovation in lyrical content. Musical innovation is another dimension and obviously if you take the musical context out it ceases to be a composition.Ideally one should have both. Just as lyrics are stuck in the template-mode , my complaint is that musical innovation in the last 50-100 yrs stops with creating, naming and a varja patterns in scales. May be explore creation of a new navrOj or a sthayi based rAga etc?
SR,
In that case I would like to request you to craft a composition just to see how it turns out
1.That is not on a person
2.That is not on a deity

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Uday_Shankar wrote:The lyrical content of musical compositions I should imagine are at the lower rungs of poetry ? Can't one look for much more creative poetry towards Kalidasa, etc.. than say towards MD ?
Uday, right on. There was a discussion on this in a different thread. Modern composers have actually put in some thought/comparison of different approaches to composition as taken by previous composers. Only a tiny fraction of that thought is expressed on this forum:

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3362&p=2

(posts #43-48 of that thread are probably relevant to the issue of "quality of poetry").

The poetry in CM is indeed much different from that in classical Sanskrit poetry, not because composers like MD, Tyagaraja etc. were not capable, it is primarily because they used what suited their musical objectives best. On the other hand, ST shows shades of classical poetry in his "flights of fancy" that he engages in. If one is talking about *demonstrated* felicity with poetry, then one can argue superficially that Kalidasa was a way better poet than Dikshitar, or whether Tyagaraja's composition style was on a "higher rung" than Dikshitar. But indeed I think such comparisons are apples-to-oranges and ultimately futile.

SR

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Well said, Uday!
Bhakti (I mean it strictly in the temple-going sense here) with unlimited use of styrofoam is just as bad as committing atrocities and depositing huge sums of money in the tirupati huNDi.While temple-going is a good practice and is good for our kids, HOW you go about it is yet another thing. The styrofoam which figures in an american temple is figurative too in that it stands for not caring about: feeling one with humanity, helping out , feeling a sense of tranquility, all of which make temple-going an elevating experience.A temple is a gathering place for the community where children can learn by example--worshiping in an atmosphere of joy, meeting friends, listening to chants and singing, enjoy looking at the architecture, the decorated gods and listening to music, watching cultural programs and learning to care about social and environmental issues--where business, the stock market and property prices are not discussed...

SR,
You are right. We have reached the limit of our discussions, it seems. It wasn't meant in the first place that secular themes should oust the religious ones. If one were to ask, 'why isn't such and such a rAgA not sung at all nowadays? We should hear more of it', no one minds. This question about including more of non-religious songs in concerts seems to disturb some.
While many of my compositions are about one god or the other, I am glad I have a few which can be sung without connecting them to any particular god. I have thought often that it would be nice if I could get more of such songs...
Last edited by arasi on 06 Feb 2008, 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

hsuvarna
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

Sorry. I could not get back due to work load. By the time, the thread has grown a lot.

Arasi, you mentioned about lullabies and peasants singing freely in the fields, singing about earth or water or nature. All these subjects are universal. Everyone had experienced it, depend on them and enjoyed. So any song on them would be great to here. All these items are on doing duty without expecting anything in return. I welcome items centering on these themes. This is what I was thinking when I started to read the posts and the thread.

I commend the efforts of Sangita Rasikan for thinking newly. I also commend himn for using sanskrit to compose some of his songs. I also appreciate heartily, when he said more compositions are needed about Indian Civilisation which is rich. Indian Civilisation or the culture is all about that secret 'what after life/death', 'who am i' 'what is my dharma/duty'. Tons of stories and subjects centering around this theme of looking inner side are available in India for thousands of centuries. Compositions on these are welcome. Let us remember dadhiichi's sacrifice, about shibi, about the yaksha prashnalu, about vidura niti, about ranti deva's sacrifice or about the mongoose in dharama raja's yaga or about river ganges or himalayas or aaravali mountains or importance of satyam/shivam/sundaram or about all the preachings which make our life balanced.

But when I started to read the other thread on SR's compositions pointed to by Vasantha Kokila. I was hugely disappointed to see some of the the compositions on some contemporary persons. Do you need sanskrit and also the grammar/rules of CM to write on these? What a waste of knowledge by SR. I condemn secular music and I am very apprehensive of what may come out. Once the corruption of CM starts, no one can stop it. Where is my Tyagaraja's greatest ranjani composition 'Palukubotini sabha lona patita maanavula kosagi, khalula nechhata pogadana' and where are these compositions? How can I hear the neraval on some of these contemporary subjects chosen by SR? I am hugely dissapointed. Do we want to add subjects like reservations/religion-balance/dowry problems to a CM concert? We have lots of other channels to discuss these problems. Today if I goto CM concert, I know, what to expect? I am content with that. The tools like Rama, krishna, Murugan, compositions by unselfish/sacrifice-surrounded Tyagaraja/Ramadasu/MD help me point me to iiner side. Why you want to take away that from me?

I don't need any secular music. I am quite happy with it. Some other member bala or sbala said some thing like 'we agree up on the secular theme....' kind of statement. No that is not true. I am not agreing with this theme. I am very afraid of where it will lead me to and what kind of concert it will lead me to. For this reason, I also request the respected administrators to close this thread.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

hsuvarna wrote:But when I started to read the other thread on SR's compositions pointed to by Vasantha Kokila. I was hugely disappointed to see some of the the compositions on some contemporary persons. Do you need sanskrit and also the grammar/rules of CM to write on these? What a waste of knowledge by SR. I condemn secular music and I am very apprehensive of what may come out. Once the corruption of CM starts, no one can stop it. Where is my Tyagaraja's greatest ranjani composition 'Palukubotini sabha lona patita maanavula kosagi, khalula nechhata pogadana' and where are these compositions? How can I hear the neraval on some of these contemporary subjects chosen by SR? I am hugely dissapointed. Do we want to add subjects like reservations/religion-balance/dowry problems to a CM concert?
:D There is no need to get worked up, I think. As I mentioned, this thread is not about my compositions. Also, this is not the first time (nor probably the last) that my approach has caused concern of "corruption" and "waste of knowledge". However, this is changing and unfortunately, it cannot be prevented by insular reactions by those who want to maintain "purity" of CM . Regarding some of the subjects you mentioned, I don't see why not (the main question is how it is done).
We have lots of other channels to discuss these problems. Today if I goto CM concert, I know, what to expect? I am content with that. The tools like Rama, krishna, Murugan, compositions by unselfish/sacrifice-surrounded Tyagaraja/Ramadasu/MD help me point me to iiner side. Why you want to take away that from me?
Are you OK or in an excited state ? Is anyone "taking away" your favorite compositions or themes ?
I don't need any secular music. I am quite happy with it. Some other member bala or sbala said some thing like 'we agree up on the secular theme....' kind of statement. No that is not true. I am not agreing with this theme. I am very afraid of where it will lead me to and what kind of concert it will lead me to. For this reason, I also request the respected administrators to close this thread.
Nobody asked you to accept it. This is not a poll or election, nor a thread asking for your decision on the subject. However, every society has a small number of people who are willing to try new things, a small number of people who are very much against doing so, and a large number of fence-sitters. As for your "thread-closure" request, I will be extremely surprised if mods close this thread.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Feb 2008, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vidya wrote:In that case I would like to request you to craft a composition just to see how it turns out
1.That is not on a person
2.That is not on a deity
Yes, as I mentioned before. It is on my list of "things to do", and should be fun as well.

SR

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

No thread closing though I thought of closing it for half an hour just to get SR surprised :P

On such lighter note, I think hsuarna is afraid that SR's ideas will spread like wild fire causing the 'secular isai movement' to take hold. Then I can imagine ( my flights of fancy ) Music Academy passing a resolution that those who pertake in such 'nonsense' would be banned from singing at the Academy ;)

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

I feel totally handicapped not being able to participate in this fascinating discussion due to my overriding computer problems. SR, Vidya and VGV have held their forts valiantly and I hope something good comes out of these verbal duels from performers who read these threads and who are capable of charting 'new' directions in CM. At present I could not resist expressing some views though it may take a while before I could participate fully!

I view CM as a 'phonetic language' with a clear grammar and structure with potential to evolve (by this I mean it is not a 'closed' language and that the final word has been pronounced). CM can exist on its own without any support from any of the other languages since it communicates directly with the 'inner soul' (primitive emotions/moods and feelings). For example one can enjoy CM intrinsically without knowing any language in which lyrics are composed. In fact we can throw away all the compositions of the Trinity (which is the current mainstay of the performing CM) (not that we should (God Forbid!) and yet CM will be totally viable on its individual merits. The checks and balances that are part of the 'CM grammar' tell us what it is and also warn us when it is violated. No doubt the Trinity have made a Himalayan contribution by showing examples of the use of the grammar by fashioning kritis. By their nature 'bhakti' has become an overriding theme of these kritis and hence CM has come to be predominantly identified with 'bhakti'. Let me digress here to cite an example. Vedic sanskrit had a strict grammar and intonation and topics which could not be used for regular or scholarly communications. Panini logically codified the language refining it (samskrita) which led to the classical Sanskrit which became a versatile medium of scholarly communication. Similarly CM is capable of conveying any ideas or associations in any language if handled by an expert appropriately. Unfortunately the pattern (including the muusical templates) of the Trinity have been fossilized by their shishyas who could not think independantly (or even would not think differently due to Guru Bhakti). From time to time sparkling glimpses of other 'musical' aspects of CM have been independantly demonstarated by genius like Mali, LGJ, BMK but on the whole the performing groups have not amply capitalized on those ideas! Some worthwhile ideas have been dismissed as just fads!

Secular development of CM need not necessarily be language oriented. RTP is a fine example of CM which is language free and an expert performer can drive the Rasikas into ecstasy through effective and novel prayaogas based strictly on his imagination. Similarly an inspired tani can standout uniquely at the hands of a laya expert. No doubt these require expert knowledge for the performer as well as on the part of the Rasikas to appreciate. Most of the Rasikas learn to appreciate CM only through the kritis and are brainwashed into identifying CM with the 'language' and the associated themes. We need to train a new breed of 'Teachers' of CM who can communicate the grammar and fundamentals 'away' from the geethams and kirtanas. More emphasis has to be given to raga aalaapana and the ability to use imagination and manodharma. Most of all more research is needed to scientifically investigate ragas, new gamaka patterns, tala structures, adapting new instruments as well as harnessing the power of computer oriented structures etc., and also fundamental research directed specifially at CM psycho-acoustics. We are lucky that some of our bright youngsters are taking an interest in CM and we can hope that combined with their technical skills, independent thinking and freedom from prejudice they will be able to chalk out new directions in CM in the 21st century so that CM may break out of the shackles forged in the 19th century which have gotten rusted in the name of orthodoxy during the 20th century.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vasanthakokilam wrote:No thread closing ...

( my flights of fancy ) Music Academy passing a resolution that those who pertake in such 'nonsense' would be banned from singing at the Academy ;)
....or be subject to "thread-removal" :P sorry just could not resist that one.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Feb 2008, 01:17, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

:lol: SR.. It took me a few seconds to get that..

kkumar29
Posts: 46
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 20:26

Post by kkumar29 »

CML has, in my opinion, expressed what CM is really all about. Unfortunately when someone raises these points like SR did, people somehow feel threatened and assume such voices are against bhakthi and are going to pollute/dilute CM. They seem to be harbouring this fear that the new CM (with secular compositions) is so blasphemous, that all compositions of Trinities will somehow vanish. From the responses I have seen so far to questions raised by SR, I have only seen emotional responses but no logical well thought out reasons as to why compositions with secular themes can not be sung in concerts. I have not read a single post from him that derides the compositions of Trinity but all he has been saying is to include compositions of secular themes. I do not see why a song by Subramania Bharathi like "sindhu nadiyin misai nilavinile" in sindhubhairavi is somehow less musical than any other composition in Sindhubhairavi.

However this thread does provide an insight into why people haven't succeeded in introducing secular or other themes into carnatic music :)

K. Kumar

hsuvarna
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

===================
SR: Are you OK or in an excited state ? Is anyone "taking away" your favorite compositions or themes ?
=====================

I am OK. How about you? You are getting mixed up in threads.
I am honestly not sure about the future of my fav compositions once the new age starts.
======================
SR:
Nobody asked you to accept it. This is not a poll or election, nor a thread asking for your decision on the subject. However, every society has a small number of people who are willing to try new things, a small number of people who are very much against doing so, and a large number of fence-sitters. As for your "thread-closure" request, I will be extremely surprised if mods close this thread.
==============================================

Nobody asked me to deny or write or read. Just the same way as multiple members here.

kjrao
Posts: 49
Joined: 15 May 2007, 08:01

Post by kjrao »

The secular themes mentioned by Uday are very important indeed. In principle, there is no reason why they should not be in CM sahitya. However, other mediums may be more suited to spread such message. CM Rasikas are exposed to other mediums as well !!! and not having such themes in CM will not be a handicap. The CM Music courses in Universities can encourage students to compose in such themes and try out. We can only speculate its effect and lasting appeal !

sbala
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

hsuvarna - I wanted to clarify that my stance has always been that we should be open to new themes as long as there is a process to ensure quality. I believed there was a general agreement on that front. I also did not agree with what I believed were alarmist views on assured death of CM if it purely stuck with bhakti. Again, I could have misinterpreted those arguments. Apart from that, I do not have any other views on this subject.

I too was diverted and disappointed by SR's compositions(only the 2 or 3 compositions mentioned in this thread) and lost my cool a bit (blame it on high expectations and also on a couple of sleepless nights of Lisp programming) but like he said, his compositions are not the subject of this debate. That was purely an error of judgment from my side and thats why I wanted to withdraw that post if SR found it offensive.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

sbala wrote:hsuvarna - I wanted to clarify that my stance has always been that we should be open to new themes as long as there is a process to ensure quality.
Thanks for the clarification. The main problem I have had in our exchange is that you did not define what makes for "high quality". This is still a valid topic for the thread. When new themes come in, how does one judge "quality" ?

Please note I do not mean to say that "quality standards" do not exist and that we need to develop "new quality standards". The standards exist as defined by Indian musicologists (and their views are very broad unlike the narrowmindedness and obscurantism I see in some of the "bhakti"-based CM enthusiasts and self-proclaimed traditionalists), and these standards are quite timeless as far as I can see.
I too was diverted and disappointed by SR's compositions(only the 2 or 3 compositions mentioned in this thread) and lost my cool a bit (blame it on high expectations and also on a couple of sleepless nights of Lisp programming)
At the risk of diverting the thread topic, let me mention that:

1. No composer ever has had "universal popularity" with all compositions. I have posted a number of pieces on various subjects. Some may appeal more to a "conservative" audience, others to a more "liberal" audience, others to all, and yet others to none.

2. Art takes time to be "digested" and fully understood. Contemporary composers will be better judged by future generations, just as past ones are evaluated by us today. I am yet to come across a "super-critic" who can critique a CM composition without even hearing it rendered, or for that matter without defining what "quality" is, hence I suspect some of the comments are based on a very limited understanding of what a vaggeyakara is.

I will rest my views on "my compositions" here, since it is not becoming to comment on my own work unless goaded/provoked. I want to avoid the possibility of comments that are based upon incomplete information and knee-jerk responses biasing future readers coming across this thread.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Feb 2008, 09:01, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

SR,
I agree with you that it was a response based on instinct rather than any thorough research or analysis or a complete understanding of what a vaggeyakara is. And there is no doubt that there might be a lot of merit in those compositions that I did not see at that moment. And that is precisely why I take back those statements.

As far as what I mean by quality, I'm looking more at the processes that need be in place rather than coming up with properties that a composition should satisfy. Do we just rely on a free market mechanism where an artiste decides to sing what he/she wants and let the rasikas be the judge of what is good or what is not? Or do we have a body of eminent scholars that lays down a set of standards of what is acceptable and what is not taking into account history, tradition and the progress that we wish to make? I believe it has to be a combination of both. I don't know if such an approach exists now or even if it is workable in art.

hsuvarna
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

sbala, thanks for your clarifications and reply. I am glad to know that car/cdr is still alive.

When SR says he preaches and by examples, SR1, SR2, SR3 all get influenced. So I can very well expect a barrage of songs on people whom they believe are great contemporaries or subjects. Sri Lalu Yadav will definitely be followed by Ms. Phulan or Ms. Mayavati or Sri Mulayam or Sri Sharukh. Then come Tatas and Birlas who have sponsor power and just like a Othukkad Kavi's day or Diskhitar Day, you will have eprson X's compositions theme.

If not that extreme or pessimistic, on a music season day, artist A will sing a song supporting a theme, In the next slot artist B will sing condemning the views in that. Universality can mean common agreement to some extent. We don't have the problem with current day subjects like Rama. How many fence sitters have the problem?

New things are welcome. I mentioned some subjects which are common to everyone, someone else may mention some other non-controversial subjects. We can have good songs and concerts.
SR and his/her compositions/tastes are not the cynosure here but they are very much an indication of new stuff to come.

While we are at it on the thread, gender problem came. In the other thread on SR's compositions caste thing was mentioned somewhere. NRIs, RIs so many bifurcations may come. There is no discussion on what could be the new stuff , yeah we must try new ideas, CM is static, This is what some members say.

How much Ghazal sangeet contributed to HM classical. A few ghazal singers became rich. That is about it.
Let there be N derivatives out of the base. Why to shake the base with grand new stuff?

coolkarni
Posts: 1729
Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

How much Ghazal sangeet contributed to HM classical. A few ghazal singers became rich. That is about it.
An illformed opinion I must say.
Unless we are talking of the kind of Ghazal Delivery that Hariharan excels in.

BGAK once wailed in an interview that his music was targetted as that coming from a Thumri Singer and so will always have the light influence
http://rapidshare.com/files/89791675/BGAK.mp3.html
Here is a beauty of a Phase where he traces childhood Memories feeding on the impulses of Ustads as they mature into Classical Mode.

If you still hold on to that view , I threaten to upload the full interview !!

:D
Last edited by coolkarni on 07 Feb 2008, 09:59, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
Posts: 2522
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06

Post by vijay »

Wow this thread has really grown many charanams! Keep it going folks....Uday's articulate post best represents my own position...

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

CML,
Started wondering if you were well, not hearing from you for the past few days when this thread was being spun with 'spark'ling colors! It was just your computer, thank goodness! By the way, speedy recovery, computer...
I suppose Suvarna realizes that our ages put together can take us back to a century or two considering this century is still very young :)
VK,
'The removal of the thread also reminded me of the opposite ceremony--of Bharati initiating one for whatever his name!

nathikan
Posts: 27
Joined: 08 Oct 2007, 01:40

Post by nathikan »

hsuvarna wrote:Universality can mean common agreement to some extent. We don't have the problem with current day subjects like Rama.
Is it agreement when people who dissent have no voice? I mean, plenty of people think of Rama as contemptible but at present they only have a choice of not listening to CM or not paying attention to the lyrics.

What I find interesting is that there are plenty of well-regarded present day vocalists like Bombay Jayashree who are atheists, I wonder if they provide impetus or support for secular or (why not?) militantly atheist compositions...

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

nathikan, I have respect for those atheists who respect the believers even if they disagree. But why should atheism be militant and why should there be compositions that reflect militant atheism? I think that is a huge leap from secular themes which is the topic of this thread.

sbala
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

hsuvarna wrote:I am glad to know that car/cdr is still alive.
Count on me to support rare artforms! Yes, I consider Lisp a work of art.

Anyway, I don't want to get drawn into specific composer's work or even a specific composition. I made a mistake and I do not want to bring in a composer's work even for illustrative purposes. What I was always interested in is how do you maintain quality as you allow new changes. We cannot just let our fears of the future cajole us into inaction. Instead of arguing further, let me suggest this approach. This itself could ruffle a few people.

1. Introduce a rating agency that employs eminent scholars who rate every composition that is submitted to them. Please observe that it is optional for a composer to go through this process. Obviously, the agency will have some standards to judge the compositions. What those standards are, is possibly the next step and I would leave it to knowledgeable people to discuss them

2. Some might argue if the Trinity did not have to go through this process, why should the modern composers be subjected to it. That is why I said step 1 is optional. If you do not want to get your work certified/rated, you are free to take your composition to market without that rating. The assumption here is the rating agency will become credible over a period of time and their rating would give a reasonable indicator of the composition and could lead to easier path in popularising it eg recording companies might start giving more weightage.

My justification for the process is
1. If films can go through this, why not CM?
2. If artistes can get certified by AIR, why not compositions?

Ofcourse, I don't know if such an arrangement is already in place

nathikan
Posts: 27
Joined: 08 Oct 2007, 01:40

Post by nathikan »

vasanthakokilam wrote:why should there be compositions that reflect militant atheism?
FOR THE SHEER, REFRESHING PLEASURE OF IT.

As for respect.... I think it's more that these artists know which side their bread is buttered. I could even posit that singing lyrics more in tune with their actual views might provide for richer bhavam? It would be exciting to find out.

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