Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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kaapi
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Post by kaapi »

It has been argued in this thread that instead of bhakti being the only subject other themes and contemporary themes should be adopted, which will raise the listener interest and hence bring in a larger audience. This line of arguments supposes that the lyrics are the most dominant experience providers in a CM concert. Lyrics possibly contributed to 30 % of the experience that even a lay listener.

The dominant position that the Trinity have enjoyed over a period time has contributed to notion that the bhakti orientation is because of them and there is a “strong “and “invisibleâ€

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

http://www.uykucu.org/watch_video/kls42 ... RADHAR{dot}

My favourite Vaggeyakara of OUR Times- Ashok Chakradhar
A Mind boggling Poet.
A Mind boggling Performer.

vgvindan
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

[quote]But they shun the nAmasamkIrtans as these are too participatory or because of the discomfort of sitting cross legged on the floor. This is the “Bhakti Brigadeâ€

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Tyagaraja used the "direct" approach because he went out into the street to do "bhajan",
SR
Thyagaraja used 'direct' approach because he was speaking to the Lord through the Kritis. If only you had the patience to go through the kritis, you will realise that Thyagarja was communicating directly with the Lord.
But when I say this, there are many who will say 'blind faith'. In Indian philosophy and Yoga systems there are words like 'sAmIpyam', 'sAlOkyam', 'sArUpyaM', sAyujyaM'. Those who care to make an effort to understand the significance of these words, would understand what it means to 'talk directly to the Lord'.

sbala
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

kkumar29 wrote:I have only seen emotional responses but no logical well thought out reasons K. Kumar
There are two ideals, Beauty and Truth. These are two different worlds, each standing on its own. People living in the world of Truth look for objectivity. People living in the world of Beauty look at a concept mainly from that perspective and express their thoughts emotionally. That doesn't necessarily mean one world is superior to the other. It follows that there might be beautiful things that are false and true things that are not beautiful. The person living in the world of Truth wil shun those thoughts that he knows is false. Similarly, a person living in the world of Beauty will shun all arguments that take away the beauty that he had seen. It is not required for these two worlds to meet all the time and that is one reason for the sparks. But, to assume that the logical world is superior to the emotional/beautiful world isn't good.

kkumar29
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 20:26

Post by kkumar29 »

sbala,

I agree with what you say. However the two ideal worlds are not mutually exclusive. The person seeking the truth can also appreciate the beauty and the person appreciating and immersing in the beauty can do so knowing fully that the beauty they are immersing in is not the complete truth.

I for one enjoy the current form of carnatic music immensely with its bhakthi soaked lyrics in any language. I also enjoy music of other forms where there are no lyrics. I just fail to understand why there is such an emotional outburst against somebody raising a question as to why we can not enjoy music that has non-bhakthi related compositions. As claimed by some of the responders the trinity and bhakthi oriented compositions have withstood the test of time. If the so called secular themes are of good quality they will also withstand the test of time and become accepted in the CM scene. At least give it a chance.

In conclusion all I can say is that there is always resistance to change. In any change process there are seven stages (Five if you follow a different school of thought) and first one is always denial. I guess most of the responders are currently in this stage. Slowly and surely they will progress through the other stages and will ultimately reach the internalization stage.

K. Kumar.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

kaapi wrote:It has been argued in this thread that instead of bhakti being the only subject other themes and contemporary themes should be adopted, which will raise the listener interest and hence bring in a larger audience. This line of arguments supposes that the lyrics are the most dominant experience providers in a CM concert. Lyrics possibly contributed to 30 % of the experience that even a lay listener.
Hold on, I said that introducing secular themes in the lyrics is one essential part of many things that need to be done to make CM a strong art form capable of withstanding extreme social changes which are already occurring. I am simply going to ignore the "extreme conservatives" because they are in a very small minority and do not add much value to the discussion except to give occasionally useful reminders of what past composers focused on. In one of the very first discussions in which I participated on this forum (back in 2006), I gave essentially a rundown of suggested "things to do", more secularization of themes was one of them.
When we talk of contemporary themes we should also talk the contemporaenity of the composer also. Normally as any composer passes away his compositions become less common and slowly the compositions of the next generation takes over. Thus it is wrong to think that the trinity obliterated the earlier composers. It was a natural process. But it is the trinity who has proved contrary to this rule. More than the other two it is Saint Thyagaraja’s whose legacy simply refuses to go away.
Usually, the mistake is in how the legacy is defined. If one defines "legacy" as the corpus of kritis of a composer, then I believe all legacies will eventually fade. Even among the Trinity, the number of kritis which are frequently sung and developed is shrinking (whether Tyagaraja or MD or Shastri). As a matter of fact, Swati kritis are the only one (among "major" 18th-19th century composers) enjoying an expansion of interest.

I believe the "legacy" should be defined truly in a much broader sense than popular appeal. It is defined more in the sense of intellectual and artistic influence on the future composers. I will disagree that Tyagaraja's legacy should be considered "greater" than MDs. I believe both T and MD have influenced many composers after them. Papanasam Sivan may have had his own views on Tyagaraja, but they should not be taken as eternal truth. While T's forte is in a very direct form of spirituality and bhakti, MD was a far better cultural integrator - such people only come by once in hundreds of years. As I mentioned in my preface to my composition on MD, he was able to combine many of the very best elements of Indian civilization into his work. Some people who think that his compositions are a mass of doxological compound words have entirely missed the point. Saints and bhaktas are also good, but they tend to appear much more frequently.

The impact of MD on our music must not be underestimated, and given a supply of discerning and reflective composers and musicologists, it should "by rights" far exceed any other vaggeyakara. MD's biggest disadvantage was his relatively weak shishya parampara. That made the crucial difference, not any "super-quality" of Tyagaraja's compositions. MD shared many qualities with another great cultural integrator, Adi Sankara - his firm grounding in Advaita, practise of "catholic" bhakti as a jivanmukta without the fetters of Dvaita and other theological nonsense that idealizes starvation and a hard life, and peripatetic nature (being willing to travel far and wide and learn many new things). But one thing he did not learn was the importance of preserving his own legacy. Unlike Sankara who toured India "harvesting disciples" from the heretics and adherents of other darshanas whom he defeated in debate, and who thereafter established various "mathas" with these disciples in charge to propagate his legacy, MD did not do much to preserve his legacy. We do not know why, but if he had done so then I bet the same guys who are now upholding Tyagaraja would have been singing MD's tune.

With Shastri and Swati, the shishya-parampara was even weaker or non-existent. With Swati, at least the royal lineage and financial resources of his descendents keeps his legacy strong at least in Kerala. I am not sure about Shastri, it is unfortunate that his legacy is not appreciated as much as it should be except in meaningless words and not real deeds.

The more one contemplates deeply about these things, the more one realizes that it is not obscurantist beliefs of "super-sprituality" - making Tyagaraja to be some kind of "super-composer" - that constitute the real reasons for CM being what it is today. It seems that it is extremely difficult to get across the idea that people who examine past composers from an impartial and thoughtful point of view, are not stupid nor less spiritual in nature nor incapable of understanding the lives of saints and bhakts. That is the brick wall which truly frustrates advancement in our classical music, not the imagined "brick wall" of Tyagarajan "super-compositions" that remain unsurmountable.

I do entirely agree with you (as I stated in a previous post) that many post-18th century composers have tried to "imitate" MD or Tyagaraja without imbibing the essence of their composition. I can relate personally to this in the context of MD. Fathoming the depth of his contributions remains a lifelong challenge for me. Success or failure is for the future rasiks to judge, but one thing became clear to me (and which I have stated before) - that being a "modern-day imitator" of MD (or any other composer) is not what modern composers should be doing.
In my opinion what is happening in the Chennai music scene is something like this. There are a good number of people who want something to keep them going spiritually but do not know where to get it. Bhakti thru CM is the most easily accessible straw to which they clutch. They can actually participate in nAmasamkirtanas where the music is very good with emphasis on sAhitya, lot of Bhakti etc. But they shun the nAmasamkIrtans as these are too participatory or because of the discomfort of sitting cross legged on the floor. This is the “Bhakti Brigadeâ€

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vgvindan wrote:Thyagaraja used 'direct' approach because he was speaking to the Lord through the Kritis. If only you had the patience to go through the kritis, you will realise that Thyagarja was communicating directly with the Lord.
Well, VGV, I don't claim to be able to "plug into" Tyagaraja's "direct communications with the Lord". What I have done over the years is to learn a number of his kritis - along with those of other composers - and try to reflect upon them in a thoughtful way as relevant to the art of CM. I am not really interested in getting into the realm of superstition, non-verifiability, and obscurantism. "Bhakti" is a very personal thing and not to be bandied around lightly or with full confidence that person X has a "direct connection" but person Y "lacks patience".

Other composer Z (feel free to insert other composer name) also is in "direct communications with the Lord" and if you have patience to go through his/her kritis, you will realize that he/she too is in "direct communication" with the Lord. If you cannot see it, the problem is that you have not had enough patience. :)

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 08 Feb 2008, 01:06, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

SR,
There cannot be a greater scorn on Thyagaraja - what else can we expect from those name people as "bhajeham' and 'brovavamma'?
Last edited by vgvindan on 08 Feb 2008, 01:11, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

A "decoupling" of CM from the "bhakti-brigade" and viewing it as an art form which has to be appreciated slowly and thoughtfully, not just gobbled down, will be very welcome. This does not mean that bhakti has no place in CM or that compositions of T "on bhakti" and MD "on deities" should not be sung any more.
First Commandment has come - let the other nine also come.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vgvindan wrote:SR,
There cannot be a greater scorn on Thyagaraja - what else can we expect from those name people as "bhajeham' and 'brovavamma'?
Let me complete the list - why stop at Tyagaraja ? Since I named MD as "Mr. Bhajeham" 15 years ago, I am therefore also heaping scorn on him, and since I called Shastri as "Mr. Nannubrova", I have even greater scorn for him. Swati, a.k.a. "Mr. Pahimam"...not even worth a mention.
:)

vidya
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Post by vidya »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:but one thing became clear to me (and which I have stated before) - that being a "modern-day imitator" of MD (or any other composer) is not what modern composers should be doing.
SR
This was my entire point in questioning templates.That MD had his reasons to create and use a certain form or for example choosing to do away multiple charanas with same music. A great many people have repeated what Dr.Raghavan and others have said about a not-so active shishya parampara but that is only a fractional part of the story.

- The much hailed kutcheri paddhati with emphasis on fast-paced songs, assumptions on variations in eduppu and scope for quick tempo swara singing has taken from listeners the ability to fathom the depth of a raga.This is the same reason why multiple ragas in RTPs rule over in-depth treatment of a single raga.
- MD's compositions in their elephantine mode did not fit the needs of the some concert goers. Which also explains the popularity of Patnam subramanya Iyer's compositions in their peppy edginess.Its kind of like fast food and we can't do much about it.
- Also the ability to improvise and stretch seems to be an issue with MD's compositions. To fathom an MD composition in its depth you need to sing it with the
structure intact.
- Another reason is that MD in his compositions decided to take a janus-faced approach so it did not help a seeker of new ragas like Kharaharapriya or
or Kunthalavarali , or did not aid the compositional approach of the next generation of composers like Patnam Subramanya Iyer and Harikesanallur Muthaiah Bhagavatar .
- I would also add that had the Tanjore quartet chosen to live in Chennai or Tanjore and propogate their own compositions and their gurus MD would have seen much more light.
Their decision to move to Travancore meant that a large number of their compostions ended up in this doubtful heap 'who composed this' category.
Sangeet Rasik wrote:The impact of MD on our music must not be underestimated, and given a supply of discerning and reflective composers and musicologists, it should "by rights" far exceed any other vaggeyakara. MD's biggest disadvantage was his relatively weak shishya parampara. That made the crucial difference, not any "super-quality" of Tyagaraja's compositions. MD shared many qualities with another great cultural integrator, Adi Sankara - his firm grounding in Advaita, practise of "catholic" bhakti as a jivanmukta without the fetters of Dvaita and other theological nonsense that idealizes starvation and a hard life, and peripatetic nature (being willing to travel far and wide and learn many new things). But one thing he did not learn was the importance of preserving his own legacy. Unlike Sankara who toured India "harvesting disciples" from the heretics and adherents of other darshanas whom he defeated in debate, and who thereafter established various "mathas" with these disciples in charge to propagate his legacy, MD did not do much to preserve his legacy. We do not know why, but if he had done so then I bet the same guys who are now upholding Tyagaraja would have been singing MD's tune
SR
It is here that I disagree . I consider the legacy of MD and his catholicity of outlook largely to be a result of his shakta traditions. A tradition known for a liberal outlook in terms of caste and gender. Infact contradictory to what you say, Sankara's advaita idealizes a hard life (and when it was initially established none of the mathas had any householder adherents, it was a mere monastic order which later became a social institution). As for Dikshitar it is the core of the shakta and the shakta tradition that he followed and that which rejects the negative approach and the nEti nEti model and celebrates life affirmation and a balanced outlook that we see in his compositions. Anyone who understands Dikshitar will know that he never pooh-poohed any theological stream as nonsense. I find a lot of his compositions seamlessly integrate Agamic Saivism, Kashmiri Saivism, Tantric Saivism, references to left handed paths derailed as heretics and also to philosophical streams such as advaita and dvaita. Also today very few people believe in the historicity of a monolithic Sankara as a cultural integrator. I for one do not believe that the the author of the brahma SUtra bhAshyas was the same as the shanmata sthApaka. This is an assumption born out of faith not out of historicity.

I personally think the quality of both these composer's compositions were truly super-quality and may be we should take a leaf out of Dikshitar and eschew this parochialism?
Tyagaraja was more popular only because his approach to music and ragas also happened to be the way the future of carnatic music headed and the emotional appeal.
Last edited by vidya on 08 Feb 2008, 02:45, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Sbala,
sbala wrote:What I was always interested in is how do you maintain quality as you allow new changes. We cannot just let our fears of the future cajole us into inaction. Instead of arguing further, let me suggest this approach. This itself could ruffle a few people.
Thanks. I think this is definitely a worthwhile topic within this thread.
2. Some might argue if the Trinity did not have to go through this process, why should the modern composers be subjected to it.
Trinity went through the process and came out with flying colors overall.
1. Introduce a rating agency that employs eminent scholars who rate every composition that is submitted to them. Please observe that it is optional for a composer to go through this process. Obviously, the agency will have some standards to judge the compositions. What those standards are, is possibly the next step and I would leave it to knowledgeable people to discuss them.
Sharangadeva, in the third chapter of his "Sangita Ratnakara" has enumerated the characteristics of an ideal vaggeyakara. Rajan Parrikar has paraphrased these from Shringy and Sharma (vol 2, chapter 3). I am cutting and pasting directly from the following link:

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05012000/musicarts.asp
a thorough knowledge of grammar (indicative of the ability of the appropriate use of words)
proficiency in lexicography
knowledge of prosody (differentiating among the various meters)
proficieny in the use of figures of speech
comprehension of aesthetic delight (rasa) as related to different emotive states of being (bhAva)
intelligent familiarity with local custom (necessary to grasp the intonation (kAku) peculiar to particular regions
knowledge of many languages
proficiency in the scientific theories of fine arts
expert knowledge of the three musical arts (vocal music, instrumental music and dancing)
a lovely tone quality
good knowledge of laya (tempo), tAla (musical time) and kAla.
discrimination of different intonations
acquaintance with regional (desi) rAgas
a sense of propriety in expression and new melodic forms
knowledge of another's mind
maturity in the understanding of different prabandhas
ability to compose songs at short notice
expert knowledge of composing different verbal structures for different melodic forms
maturity in producing gamakas pervading the three registers
proficiency in presentation of different AlApa
SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vidya wrote:It is here that I disagree . I consider the legacy of MD and his catholicity of outlook largely to be a result of his shakta traditions. A tradition known for a liberal outlook in terms of caste and gender. Infact contradictory to what you say, Sankara's advaita idealizes a hard life (and when it was initially established none of the mathas had any householder adherents, it was a mere monastic order which later became a social institution).
I did not say that Advaita has no place for the monastic order. Of course I know that even modern Advaitins like Vivekananda and Chinmayananda led a monastic life. But it is a far stretch to say that this is an "idealization" of monasticism. In Advaita the idealization is of the "jivanmukta", who can be a householder or not. Gaudapada's "mandukya karika" explicitly says that the Advaitic path leads to a "natural peace" and does not require undue hardship, ascetism, penance/tapas or other deprivations. The tradition of "sanyasa" is common to many branches of Indian philosophy and spiritualism, and is a path taken by individuals through their own choice. It should never be confused as an "idealization" of the best adherent of Advaita.
As for Dikshitar it is the core of the shakta and the shakta tradition that he followed and that which rejects the negative approach and the nEti nEti model and celebrates life affirmation and a balanced outlook that we see in his compositions. Anyone who understands Dikshitar will know that he never pooh-poohed any theological stream as nonsense.
First of all, I have never suggested that he "pooh-poohed" any theology as having no merit at all. I am saying exactly that he never subscribed to theological nonsense as in claiming that one god is better than other or that certain sectarian beliefs are better than others or in denying the ultimate non-dual truth in favor of dualist (maya-promoted) semi-truths. Neither did Sankara reject theology as such, and considered himself a "bhakta". Secondly, I strongly disagree that an Advaitin has to reject the "neti neti model" in order to celebrate life affirmation and have a balanced outlook. This is based upon an incorrect interpretation of the Upanishad and has been argued by many scholars over the centuries. Very briefly, "neti neti" only indicates what is *not* the end-all and be-all of the universe; by no means does it say that one must reject all of this in order to be Advaitic. The notion of "paramarthika" and "vyavaharika" truth is of importance in understanding this.

Again, I am not saying that shaktism has no influence in Dikshitar's life, but at the root his approach is Advaitic and it is the fundamental foundation of Dikshitar and his music and his life. He considered shaktism as one path/window into the Advaitic ideal. His catholicism is ultimately inspired by Advaita, although it may be seen most frequently through his tantric and Saiva practices. The fundamental nature of Advaita is non-sectarianism.
I find a lot of his compositions seamlessly integrate Agamic Saivism, Kashmiri Saivism, Tantric Saivism, references to left handed paths derailed as heretics and also to philosophical streams such as advaita and dvaita.
I am very well aware of this. In my composition "muttusvaminam" which is posted on this forum, I highlight repeatedly this very integration of advaita, saivism, agamic tantra, and advaita. In my other composition "vaggeyasamrajam" (not posted yet) I continue to highlight this integration, also including his command of other shastras.
Also today very few people believe in the historicity of a monolithic Sankara as a cultural integrator. I for one do not believe that the the author of the brahma SUtra bhAshyas was the same as the shanmata sthApaka. This is an assumption born out of faith not out of historicity.
I do not agree with this interpretation at all. As far as I know, Sankara is most certainly the author of the brahmasutra bhashyas and that the four "authentic" dashanami mathas are founded by him or members of his very early shishya parampara. Some disputants may have existed but these assertions have been debunked and disclaimed. But this is probably not a subject for detailed discussions on this thread.
I personally think the quality of both these composer's compositions were truly super-quality and may be we should take a leaf out of Dikshitar and eschew this parochialism?Tyagaraja was more popular only because his approach to music and ragas also happened to be the way the future of carnatic music headed and the emotional appeal.
I partially agree with your first statement, but entirely disagree with the second. Forum members will note that my support of MD as the "greater" vaggeyakara has only in the sense of according him a rightful place and refuting the "Tyagaraja-is-the ultimate" assertions that many who follow CM are brought up to believe.

SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 08 Feb 2008, 03:34, edited 1 time in total.

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

vidya wrote:- The much hailed kutcheri paddhati with emphasis on fast-paced songs, assumptions on variations in eduppu and scope for quick tempo swara singing has taken from listeners the ability to fathom the depth of a raga.This is the same reason why multiple ragas in RTPs rule over in-depth treatment of a single raga.
- MD's compositions in their elephantine mode did not fit the needs of the some concert goers. Which also explains the popularity of Patnam subramanya Iyer's compositions in their peppy edginess.Its kind of like fast food and we can't do much about it.
- Also the ability to improvise and stretch seems to be an issue with MD's compositions. To fathom an MD composition in its depth you need to sing it with the
structure intact.
- Another reason is that MD in his compositions decided to take a janus-faced approach so it did not help a seeker of new ragas like Kharaharapriya or
or Kunthalavarali , or did not aid the compositional approach of the next generation of composers like Patnam Subramanya Iyer and Harikesanallur Muthaiah Bhagavatar .
- I would also add that had the Tanjore quartet chosen to live in Chennai or Tanjore and propogate their own compositions and their gurus MD would have seen much more light.
While your factual points are well taken, I think one has to be careful to distinguish cause from effect. The root cause of these issues is the fact that MD's shishya parampara was not strong enough to influence decisions and directions. The modern "kacheri paddhati" followed in Chennai was introduced by Ariyakudi from Tyagaraja's parampara. If MD's parampara had been strong enough his disciples would have composed more palatable compositions, or speeded up the rendition (which works fine in many of his compositions), in keeping with the times (unfortunately most of them were "gurave namah" types with little initiative - or were perhaps just overwhelmed by Tyagaraja-centrism created by a large and well-oiled shishya parampara).

I totally disagree that improvisation is more difficult in MD compositions. In many compositions, he has taken care to introduce points for neraval and other elaboration. I do agree that the "sangati" approach of Tyagaraja's tradition is attractive to many (it is not clear to me whether he himself composed the sangatis or whether his disciples introduced them later). As for "new ragas", MD has done a great service in defining a multitude of "Hindustani" ragas which did not exist in the CM practice of his day. There is outstanding seed material for composers wishing guidance to compose in monumental Hindustani ragas, rather than compose in ragas of limited scope whose novelty stems essentially from their rare use. Why is it that there are still no weighty CM compositions in great Hindustani ragas ? Answer: because few have bothered to study how Dikshitar internalized Hindustani ragas and defined the basics of CM composition in these ragas.

SR

vidya
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Post by vidya »

Yes, advaitin as used by a layperson and a believer is very different from the term advaitin as used by a philosopher.
There are a million variations between the advaitins even among gaUDapada, sankara, sureshvara and so on.
Which is why a lot of philosophers qualify advaita as shAkta advaita, sankara advaita and why there saivite theologicians who called
themselves advaitins but rejected the sivasamavAda. Dikshitar's advaita was the shAkta advaita which people like bhAskara rAya followed.
In terms of the technical tenets from what I have gathered Dikshitar's advaita closely follows the ShAkta advaita beliefs.

As for the paramArthika vyavahArika system that sadly seems to be a trump card used to justify practices that defy logic. As for the monolithic sankara (ie author of the BSB being different from the author of the stotras) I am not sure what constitutes historical debunking that you refer. Any historical references to this would be appreciated , and I do have a lot of them of my own. but its a big digression and I don't want to get into this here.

uday_shankar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Post by uday_shankar »

vidya,

Shankara provides a broad target for labeling, given the extensive scholarly, philosophical/polemical works.

For Dikshitar all we have is a few lines of musical sAhitya and some sketchy biographical details (correct me if I am grossly wrong !!).

At a layperson level, there's no dearth non-intellectuals who can seamlessly integrate not merely different flavors of a single religious tradition but entirely non-overlapping religions such as Hindu and Semitic traditions. After all they are not in the business to split theological hairs but to get something useful from it all.

Based on what you know (since I don't know much about anything!), can you attribute extensive advaitic scholarship and/or rigorous intellectualism to MD ? If not, his "catholicity" stems from the intuitive inclusiveness that most people feel rather than any careful theological analysis, no ? Therefore it is unfair to pit him as an inclusive life-affirmer against the neti neti Shankara the life-denier ?

Again, it is conceivable that the Shankara of the bhashyas works is entirely different from the Shankara of real life (even granting the stotras are not his).

knandago2001
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006, 10:09

Post by knandago2001 »

If I were to “walk in the shoesâ€

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

What I have done over the years is to learn a number of his kritis - along with those of other composers - and try to reflect upon them in a thoughtful way as relevant to the art of CM. I am not really interested in getting into the realm of superstition, non-verifiability, and obscurantism. "Bhakti" is a very personal thing and not to be bandied around lightly or with full confidence that person X has a "direct connection" but person Y "lacks patience".
This amounts to telling telling 'I enjoy reading about so and so author - I appreciate his poetry - but don't ask me about the contents. The fact is that it is the passion behind the contents which emerges as poetry. You cannot delink passion behind the contents from the poetry-per-se. This is what called learning by rote.

The depth of Thyagaraja's music derives from his Bhakti. These 'bhakti-brigade-bashing' people are doing greatest disservice to the cause of music by considering music to be only an art form, freely use the name of Thyagaraja and also throw scorn over his bhakti as 'obscurantism'.

Music is a language of bhAva - emotions. Particularly, the kritis of Thyagaraja is steeped in such a deep bhakti that it is not possible to fathom it unless one has inclination and commitment.

These people who say that they love the kritis of Thyagaraja and at the same time throw scorn over his bhakti are indeed the pretenders of highest order promoting one's own wares, telling cock and bull stories to cheat the gullible public.

Admin,
I feel ashamed to be in the midst these 'go-mukha vyAghras'. Please remove my name from the forum.
Good Bye
Last edited by vgvindan on 08 Feb 2008, 09:30, edited 1 time in total.

vidya
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Post by vidya »

Should we say Shankara of 'unreal' life philosophically speaking ? :)

I am not pitting anyone against anyone but was trying to point out our own internal disparities - when it comes to music we want an intellectual approach,
when it comes to philosophy, social norms and culture a lot of people prefer a faith-based approach. Intellectual rigour can be applied in all dimensions and not when it suits us.
Yes, drawing conclusions from kRtis can be a unreliable, and my conclusions of Dikshitar's philosophical tenets and outlook are largely based on whatever little I have collected such as:

1.Published biographies 2.Additional field data collected from informal interviews with Shishya parampara folks, local traditions in and around the place he grew up.
3.The kind of textual tradition, terminologies used in kRtis. References to graded liberation, various contextual ways in which
he uses terms like avidyA, mAya ,jnAna jnAtru jnEye etc, technical term dropping without opinionation etc give us a pointer.
4.Again It could be possible that it had more to with an individual than a theology BUT wherever there occurs a reference to left-handed path it is always qualified
as 'one among the many methods of worship'. This is largely a legacy of his theology, in these upasakas terms like 'cleansing' and supplanting are never used.
And in that limited sense there really is definitely a greater degree of catholicity. Also because even though there is a succession of guru parampara(s) these upasakas do not believe
in institutionalization.It was in this context that I thought the comparison was not accurate.

We are talking about history that is hardly 200 years old. and a lot of these people have strong oral traditions even if you discount the miracles.
Anyway I have nothing more productive to add to this discussion and will exit now . Thanks to SR for providing some fodder to this discussion.I wish you well in your composing endeavors.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

KNG,

[quote="knandago2001"]If I were to “walk in the shoesâ€

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Vidya,
vidya wrote:when it comes to music we want an intellectual approach,
when it comes to philosophy, social norms and culture a lot of people prefer a faith-based approach. Intellectual rigour can be applied in all dimensions and not when it suits us.
A lot of the Advaitic debate (especially with the Buddhist "logicians") is regarding the true value of "logic" as a tool to see the ultimate reality. Advaita is a FAR more intellectual and "logical" philosophy than some give it credit for. Certainly better than the Buddhist "logicians" who brilliantly conclude that the Universe is in fact a Void. Advaitic approaches enable a person to apply "intellectual" approaches in all walks of life while having a clear understanding of the limits of logic itself.

As an aside, the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model) is probably the last "logical" bastion of modern physics. Beyond that, you can judge for yourself how "logical" the hypotheses and claims of String Theory and "Theory of Everything" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything) are. Is this science or philosophy ? Logic or faith ? Paramarthika or vyavaharika ?

I have great interest in knowing more about Dikshitar through your direct interactions with his shishya parampara and those close to his personality. When/if your collected data is published, I hope you will let me/us know where it can be found. Even if it is not published, I hope there is a way it can be shared.

Best Wishes,
SR
Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 08 Feb 2008, 10:02, edited 1 time in total.

hsuvarna
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

=========I partially agree with your first statement, but entirely disagree with the second. Forum members will note that my support of MD as the "greater" vaggeyakara has only in the sense of according him a rightful place and refuting the "Tyagaraja-is-the ultimate" assertions that many who follow CM are brought up to believe.

SR

=========================================

I really dont get you at all. To raise the stature of MD you refute Tyagaraja. Tomorrow to refute another composer, you raise the stature of Tyagarja. You can write about the philosphics and advaita content of MD. You can list some lines instead of MD where in you feel really good about him.

Coolcarni-ji,
Thumri-Ghazal-HM: I consider thumri as part of HM unlike ghazal. I have not heard a ghazal in any HM concert nor I heard. You are welcome to reform this ill-form with more uploads of threats :-). Prior to this I read BGAK interviews where in he mentioned about the thumris and how he sang in his concerts. I consider ghazal as more of a derivative. Especially when sung by Mallika-e-Ghazal BA or ustad GA or MH than by HH or JS-C. We very well know thumris at the end of HM concert and I have seen GA starting the concert with a thumri. I always had problem buying ticket for GA or MH ghazal concert. never a problem for HM consert. What I was thinking was whether Ghazal influenced the HM patronship. The movie shankarabharanam in telugu definitely contributed to CM learning by more children/adults in Andhra. But we can discuss this in another thread.

nathikan:
I realized that there are some people like you who are totally outside. You have evry right to expect the concerts to your liking. I hope artists like BJ or some other artist cater to your needs of special refreshment. There cannot be a commonality here. Both have to be different circles. I was rasising objections to SR because something of this sort (anti-rama or no-rama) is very well expected.

Now I am geting a feeling that forum admins are thinking about what to do.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

VGV,
vgvindan wrote:Music is a language of bhAva - emotions. Particularly, the kritis of Thyagaraja is steeped in such a deep bhakti that it is not possible to fathom it unless one has inclination and commitment.

I feel ashamed to be in the midst these 'go-mukha vyAghras'. Please remove my name from the forum.

Good Bye
upacAramu jEsEvArunnArani maravaku rA
kRpa kAvalenani nE nI kIrtini balkucunuNDaga
vAkiTanE padilamuga vAtAtmajuDunnaDani
SrIkarulagu nI tammulu cEriyunnArani
EkAntamunanu jAnakiyErpaDiyunnadani
SrI kAnta parulElani SrI tyAgarAja vinuta

SR

Sangeet Rasik
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

Sir,
hsuvarna wrote:I really dont get you at all. To raise the stature of MD you refute Tyagaraja. Tomorrow to refute another composer, you raise the stature of Tyagarja. You can write about the philosphics and advaita content of MD. You can list some lines instead of MD where in you feel really good about him.
Perhaps in order to "get" me, you might have to consider that my purpose here is not to "refute" or to "insult" any composer. CM is not a "zero-sum game" in which one has to be raised in order to insult the other.

SR

cienu
Posts: 2387
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 11:40

Post by cienu »

vgvindan

Your point of view is very important. I appeal to you not to become emotional and quit the forum. Your views have been read with great interest by all forumites for all these years. Please reconsider.

Sangeet Rasik
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006, 00:19

Post by Sangeet Rasik »

cienu wrote:vgvindan

Your point of view is very important. I appeal to you not to become emotional and quit the forum. Your views have been read with great interest by all forumites for all these years. Please reconsider.
I second that. VGV is a valuable contributor especially in context of Tyagaraja compositions. I hope he will reconsider his decision. Discussion threads are meant for discussion, not for decision.

SR

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

VGV,
'The passion behind their poetry ', as you aptly stated, which you have in plenty, should make you stay around and educate many of us who recognize your erudition in, and devotion to CM, especially when it comes to nAda brahmam...

meena
Posts: 3326
Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

VGV
Come on be a sport!
In the past u have reconsidered ur decision , do pl. reconsider again. Thanks

Pubic forums are platform for healthy discussions / debates, also has its ups / downs.
At times its like one disfunctional family :rolleyes:


Lighter note:
THE go-mukha vyAghras
we don't wanna see u all quit too!
Keep ur fingers crossed that this thread now will not be locked/moved ;) :P

Never a dull day here!
Last edited by meena on 08 Feb 2008, 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

kkumar29 wrote:sbala,

I agree with what you say. However the two ideal worlds are not mutually exclusive. The person seeking the truth can also appreciate the beauty and the person appreciating and immersing in the beauty can do so knowing fully that the beauty they are immersing in is not the complete truth.
K. Kumar.
It is largely mutually exclusive because it would be very hard (not impossible) to find subjects or persons that can stand up to the highest standards of Truth, Beauty and Good.

A strong rationalist has a strict definition of Truth. If any assertion does not stand up to that standards of Truth, it fails. There is no room for emotion here. This is the approach taken by subjects like Mathematics and there is nothing wrong in applying the same approach to Music. But, that does not lead to a complete understanding.

Same is the case with those living in the world of Beauty. They have strict views on what is Beauty and what is not. Truth is a weaker notion in this world. I'm not saying it is absent but it is definitely not as strong as it is in the Truth world. Someone made the point about artistes wearing necklaces and other adornments when singing pancharatna. I believe this is just an illusion. For the artistes, the ideal is Beauty and not Truth. They have no trouble reconciling such actions. Its only those who have different ideals who see that as wrong.

The third ideal is Good. Again, Beauty and Truth are weaker notions here. Those who live in this space are only concerned that any development has to be Good. Here, the notion of Good is very strong. It implies that even the slightest risk of something bad happening would cause people here to reject that notion. When VK (I'm using names for only illustrations and not to air my personal prejudices) raised the objection to the statement "Tyagaraja capitalizing on Bhakti", he felt it was offensive knowing that such a statement can be cause harm. While I agreed with him, you also need to look at who made the statement and the perspective he is coming from. From a strict rational perspective, it is not at all a wrong statement. I also apologised to SR simply because I made a statement that hurt someone and I could not reconcile with my own standards that I have to live up to while living in this space. This should not be interpreted as a sign of weakness.

All these are equally valid ideals. No one ideal is complete in itself and lead to a complete understanding of the subject.

And I completely agree with vgv that blind faith exists everywhere. Mathematicians assume certain axioms to be true when they set out to prove something. It is also blind faith. Many axioms have been proven wrong over time. Computer Science, another field of rational thinking, had blindly believed that the binary search algorithm was correct. After all, it is working fine and the logic seems flawless. Recently, it was found to contain a bug. It is only when we encounter a person from another world, that such sparks fly and agreement is virtually impossible. Just as it takes massive amounts of energy to launch a rocket, it would take events of great consequences to shift them to a different world.

This is why I say we should not fall for just rational arguments. All these are great ideals but each of us will choose sides depending on what we identify with strongly.

I also appeal to VGV to reconsider.
Last edited by sbala on 08 Feb 2008, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

In conclusion all I can say is that there is always resistance to change. In any change process there are seven stages (Five if you follow a different school of thought) and first one is always denial. I guess most of the responders are currently in this stage. Slowly and surely they will progress through the other stages and will ultimately reach the internalization stage.

K. Kumar.
Though this makes theoretical sense, one has to be careful about the reality behind such things since not all changes 'make' it. These steps are not a 'prescription' for any change, but is at best 'description' about succesful changes. For every such successful change, there may have been several that were attempted but never took.

sbala
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

SR,
That was an excellent list of criteria though it could scare away some of our composers. I do feel such stringent quality measures are essential. This takes care of the composer. We might have to do something at the level of the composition itself. I would also add ratings on secular themes or genres just like how movies or TV channels do (Universal, Children, PG, Adults Only and of course, Militiant Atheism :)..

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Bala, I do not want to revisit the Thyagaraja discussion here but your characterization/summary of that discussion as an example of 'Good' is not correct in this context ( you have not considered my subsequent clarification on that ). But that is not important for the framework you are describing, so I will leave it at that.

Back to the framework, I understand what you are getting at. "Why can't we equate emotional and rational thoughts on the same point in the value judgement scale. Why this apparent superiority of rationality?' In this artistic discussion that is quite an appropriate question to ask. I am sure one of you can relate it to the main point of the thread.

But going off topic a bit, I am not sure why you want to call Truth and Beauty mutually exclusive and something not to be found together commonly. What is your take on the principle of 'Occum's razor'. It is an aesthetic principle that scientists commonly invoke. Second, many a mathematicians marvel at the beauty of the proof itself and how slick it is. Those are value and aesthetic judgements about the products of mathematics beyond correctness. Also, haven't you marveled at the beauty of a succinctly (and recursively) expressed LISP program ;) that explodes into a beautiful Manderbolt Set. Aesthetics in programming is well known. Same is true of many scientific theories. I do agree that in those realms, correctness comes first. They do not have much use for a beautiful but incorrect theory.

I guess this framework, mutually exclusive or not, can be used for judging compositions since they can be mapped to the the well known triad Syntax/Semantics/Pragmatics

coolkarni
Posts: 1729
Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

VGV
As a comeback specialist of sorts :D, I can only exhort you through these fine words of Robert Anderson
In every marriage more than a week old, there are grounds for divorce.
The trick is to continue and find grounds for marriage
Last edited by coolkarni on 08 Feb 2008, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

sbala and VK,
Fascinating, and as you have guessed, all beyond me:)
Bala, Truth beauty, beauty truth, not only in poetry but in this real life of ours and of course, I see more truth in beauty than in the ornaments or vestments of performers.It is the beauty in their music that I seek and it perhaps gets me closer to truth.
As for rating composers :), sbala, thanks for speaking for our lot. These are impossible standards and measures! When I do think about such a test, I don't suppose it would be a panel of composers who would be judges--but scholars. I am afraid some of them may not have the empathy to assess composers. Just as those who are experts in the theory of music don't always perform as well as they are supposed to!

VK,
By the way, what is this well known (!) triad Syntax/Semantics/Pragmatics?

kaapi
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32

Post by kaapi »

VK,

I think in one word it is elegance. But it is not easy to define elegance in any art form. For instance why a film succeeds in box office and another bombs is still a mystery. Similarly why the same composition becomes a hit only with a particular singer is also a mystery.
A CM composition is the blending together of many distinct components like the theme, prosody,raga,tala into an elegant final product.
It will be very difficult to predict which particular blend will become popular.At best we can analyse those that have achieved fame.

coolkarni
Posts: 1729
Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

hsuvarna
listen here to the greatest ghazal singer of all time-kl saigal
http://rapidshare.com/files/90162676/babul_mora.mp3

and kishori amonkar singing this in a concert
http://rapidshare.com/files/90166391/10 ... Mora-1.mp3

kaapi
Posts: 146
Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 14:32

Post by kaapi »

Mr.Govindan,
I am surprised that you have decided to quit the forum. If you so feel quit from this thread. There is good work to be done on the exposition of Thyagaraja kIrtanas in English.
In the earlier times in joint families when there was a irreconcilable differances between family members they just stopped talking to each other. They did not go out of the house.

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Dear vgv,

Your service (all aspects for it) is an important part of the cm community, and the rasikas community here. Please reconsider your decision.

Thanks
Arun

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

coolkarni wrote
As a comeback specialist of sorts ,:D
:lol: Thanks Kji for the sense of humor on this.

Yes, VGV, why quit the forum? If you do not like to read about Thyagaraja's name dragged into these kind of discussions, just quit the thread/discussion and not the forum.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

arasi wrote:VK,
By the way, what is this well known (!) triad Syntax/Semantics/Pragmatics?
Arasi: I was trying to draw a parallel to Bala's framework to that from Linguistics. Not sure if it strictly follows, but similar arguments are made in that context as well. Here is a link that introduces these three concepts: http://www.trinity.edu/cbrown/language/ ... tions.html

I was going with the parallels: syntax defines the truth, semantics defines the meaning behind the syntax ( 'beauty' ) and pragmatics defines the context specific value judgement ( such as 'good'. ) One can question if beauty is semantics or pragmatics. In one sense assessment of 'beauty' and assessment of 'good or bad' are both context specific value judgements but beauty is more of an 'enjoyment or appreciatory' value judgement where as 'good vs bad' is a evaluatory value judgement.

These parallels may be a stretch but while evaluating compositions, which is what Bala is after, these three play a role. But in arts, sometimes stepping outside of syntax ( truth ) is considered artistic license and so in that sense it can be beautiful in the semantic sense and good in the pragmatic sense.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sangeet Rasik wrote:Sir,
hsuvarna wrote:I really dont get you at all. To raise the stature of MD you refute Tyagaraja. Tomorrow to refute another composer, you raise the stature of Tyagarja. You can write about the philosphics and advaita content of MD. You can list some lines instead of MD where in you feel really good about him.
Perhaps in order to "get" me, you might have to consider that my purpose here is not to "refute" or to "insult" any composer. CM is not a "zero-sum game" in which one has to be raised in order to insult the other.

SR
SR, I am writing this after some reflection and whether to even post this or not. But here it is.

You have made similar clarifications before and those who have followed from the beginning may get all that and read what you write with that context in mind. And I am sure a very careful critical analysis of all your posts also will reveal that.

But here is the rub. Your style of writing can be interpreted on first glance the way hsuarna interpreted it ( though not necessarily in such black and white terms ). For example when you refer to 'making Tyagaraja to be some kind of "super-composer" or 'not any "super-quality" of Tyagaraja's compositions', etc. you are operating in a grey area. I can readily see how you can offer the explanation that it is not all about Thyagaraja but the way History and subsequent generations have portrayed Thyagaraja and you are addressing those. But the problem is, people read between the lines and interpret that you imply that the 'Current position of Thyagaraja in CM practise is undeserved' while the main point you are making is 'MD's position in CM practise should be higher than what it is now'.

Just a thought as to why you are harassed ;) to explain yourself again and again.

bilahari
Posts: 2631
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Post by bilahari »

I don't understand why there should be an agency or "censor board" keeping a check on the compositions that enter the CM world. Do we not trust performing artistes to pick worthy compositions of the lot to sing? Do we not trust ourselves to attend concerts by performers who do sing quality compositions?

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Thanks, Bilahari!
And, I was dreading the censor board!
Just kidding...

sbala
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006, 08:56

Post by sbala »

VK
I will think about your points and respond as I'm travelling. But, you did get the crux of the message I was trying to communicate. I can count many more elements that are beautiful ideas but not true. All you need to do is to enter the realms of fantasy. That might explain "largely mutually exclusive" better than my previous post.

1. Tendulkar and Lara played in the same team and had a partnership of 800 runs with both scoring 400 each. A beautiful thought but very little chance of being true
2 Federer vs Laver - A mouth-watering concert but can ever become true

Im not concocting these, I have actually spent hours indulgiing in such fantasies and it gave me great pleasure.

The keyboard at the browsing centre I'm now at is true but awful

Why do we need a censor board? - I did see a post on Padams and Javalis and someone said children should not be taught them because of objectionable lyrics.

Bilahari - Yes, I do not trust performing artistes to make the right decisions especially as we are talking about opening up carnatic music to possibly many new themes .I feel they have a lot of things to wory about anyway and many of them can compromise even without being aware that they are doing it.

But, what is wrong in composers/compositions being rated? Anybody who is directly contributing to carnatic music has to be certtified and made to go through a stringent process. I don't know why this is not acceptable.

hsuvarna
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006, 06:47

Post by hsuvarna »

coolkarni wrote:hsuvarna
listen here to the greatest ghazal singer of all time-kl saigal
http://rapidshare.com/files/90162676/babul_mora.mp3

and kishori amonkar singing this in a concert
http://rapidshare.com/files/90166391/10 ... Mora-1.mp3
Thanks Cool-ji for the benchmark thumri. After long time I am hearing the
KLS version. Was'nt this the 7.57-8.00 am ceylon morning slot everyday for many years?
How many imitations of this I heard over the years. Countless.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Kji, thanks for those ghazal links. Sounds wonderful..

What is the theme of the song? It sounds a bit sad in the initial portions but later on seems to move on to reflective moods and then possibly some resolutions towards the end. What is it about?

Suji Ram
Posts: 1529
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04

Post by Suji Ram »

hsuvarna wrote:[
KLS version. Was'nt this the 7.57-8.00 am ceylon morning slot everyday for many years?
.
Absolutely,
I remember my dad straining his ears to listen to Saigal's song every morning. Only years later I bought cassettes and knew why he loved it so much. Every song of his is a gem!

Vk ,
the song is about a bride leaving her parental home-

Found this in a website...

O father, I depart forcibly from my home
Four men gathered to lift my palanquin {see the wedding/funeral analogy here?}
my loved ones will become strangers
the innermost portals of my home will be unreachable
as I leave my father's home and go to my husband's country.



also could mean man's last journey perhaps?
Last edited by Suji Ram on 09 Feb 2008, 12:21, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16774
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Post by arasi »

Meena,
Quite an interesting thought.
In modern times though, such 'chOD bAbul kA ghar mohE pIkE nagar Aj jAnA paDA' angst may not exist! bAbul kA ghar does not become a distant reality anymore!

As sbala says, one can always dream.
By the way sb, I see that you are quite serious about 'certifying' (!) composers. Hope you haven't gone through some of my compositions and have come to this conclusion. Just kidding, and you would know that--coming from a 'certifiable' me :)

coolkarni
Posts: 1729
Joined: 22 Nov 2007, 06:42

Post by coolkarni »

It sounds a bit sad in the initial portions but later on seems to move on to reflective moods and then possibly some resolutions towards the end.
VK you were spot on there . As you must have seen, through sujirams post.Jagjit singh too sang this beautifully for a commercial album.Bismillah Khan , Naushad , Lata M are on record , declaring that this is one rendering which .they feel cannot be bettered.
A triple cd album of KLS can be seen these days in Music stores-Music world etc.It is a beautifully crafted set , complete with a nice booklet ,too.
Last edited by coolkarni on 09 Feb 2008, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.

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