Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 09 Feb 2008, 22:18

The theme and the story behind it was very well explained in

http://www.musicalnirvana.com/ghazal/wa ... icles.html

Wajid Ali, a great patron, singer of music, dance, art was driven away forcibly (as though a prison term)
from his kingdom in Lucknow in mid 1800s for refusing to acceded to british. He was taken to near calcutta. When he was being taken away in an early morning, thousands gathered and this song first was heard in that morning. It was written by Wajid himself, per lot of articles.

Long baack in rmic, it was posted by the greatest contributor oof Indian Music to Internet by Rajan Parrrikar, the man from Goa. He himself a great harmonium player and very good HM artist.
His posts were widely read. www.sawf.org has all articles on HM ragas, with example clips.

I remember the Internet battle 12 years ago, among music fans in RMIM (rec.music.indian.music )
newsgroup) between Kishore and Rafi fans. This thread is on that heels. Passion emotion flowing.
That battle was won by Rafi group, as I would say, but the opposit camp never agreed.

.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Feb 2008, 00:43

kaapi wrote:VK,
I think in one word it is elegance. But it is not easy to define elegance in any art form. For instance why a film succeeds in box office and another bombs is still a mystery. Similarly why the same composition becomes a hit only with a particular singer is also a mystery.
A CM composition is the blending together of many distinct components like the theme, prosody,raga,tala into an elegant final product.
It will be very difficult to predict which particular blend will become popular.At best we can analyse those that have achieved fame.

kaapi. Thinking about such enigmas is one of my favorite hobbies

Explanations ( and not necessarily solutions ) can be found in Complex Systems studies. ( also called non-linear behavior, chaotic behavior etc. ). You can suspect that this beast is in action when there is some kind of 'feedback' of output to input. In other words, whenever people say 'it is a chicken and egg' problem, they are most probably referring to an underlying Complex System. of some vareity. Fashion, Economy, Popularity, culture are all examples of this. The drawings of a snake swallowing its own tail is a symbolic and mythical representation of this phenomenon, if you ask me.

What is interesting is, there are some linear ( predictable ) phases of any complex system and that gives us the illusion that we can somehow predict the outcome and even gives us a false hope that we can effect the future outcome with certainty. But since it is a complex system, when you least expect it, it leaves the linear phase and all of a sudden what used to work does not work anymore.

One fascinating result of thinking about real life things in this manner is, it gives one the humility of our own limitations. But that limitation is not about our capabilities or abilities or skills or motivations but it is about the essential nature of the System we all participate in. So one can have this humility, a balanced perspective on things, without doubting ones own capabilities and skills. Meaning, the outcome does not necessarily reflect on your attitude, skills etc. It is a humility regarding expectations of outcome. "I am proud of my effort vs I am proud I achieved the outcome ". Consequently, this gives one the acceptance when things do not go according to what we planned and predicted. Instead of 'throwing in the towel' ( as someone with a fatalistic mindset may do ), it gives you a scientific and reassuring basis to decide if you did your best or not ( since that is all one can control and not the outcome ). It is a huge burden off one's shoulders. Of course, it is easier said than done.

My own personal philosophy of reconciling and recasting Indian Philosophy to Complex systems is:

Maya : The illusion of Predictability that the underlying complex system gives you.

Bhagavad Gita interpretation: All you can control is your actions and not the outcome since the world out there is non-linear. What is the point in attaching yourself to that outcome, which may or may not happen no matter how hard you try. So let go of that attachment to outcome and focus your energies on what you do, namely the input. Let the system take care of the outcome.

( on a lighter note, next time you pray, ask God to 'let the system exhibit linear behavior for a day'

)

Now disciples, you are allowed to ask questions, but if you expect answers, you have already failed the test

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Feb 2008, 10:11

VK,
I am impressed. Enroll me as your first disciple.
Seriously, what you say is something to mull over. The same wine in the scientist's vial. "'Focus on your energies on what you do, namely the input" is something I need to pay attention to. Rajesh wags his finger at me every chance he gets, and bless him for that!
So, what is the price tag for your seminars, spiritual spring cuckoo? Let me start saving up for that

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Feb 2008, 11:10

http://rapidshare.com/files/90571012/HA ... U.mp3.html

I have have always Wondered why Basaveswar Vachanas never made it to the CM Musician's repertoire.Here is a lovely one in Bhatiyar.A secular theme indeed.A poor man's Cry !!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Feb 2008, 22:26

I think Vedavalli once sang a Vachana

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 11 Feb 2008, 05:08

VK/Uday/Arasi/Kaapi/SR/Vidya...and of course VGV
As you are moving more into the philosophical territory (advaita and its ilk/personal and private philosophy ) shall we move over to a new thread preferably at 'bhakti' and continue that fascinating debate over there. I would love to join the debate to the limited extent my 'computer recovery' permits

The discussion of secular themes can continue here (minus VGV perhaps) though we are unlikely to find any overreaching changes among the performing public in the near future.

I have always wondered how the scenario of CM would have changed if T had been a devout christian (albeit a 'convert') as he was coeval with vednayagam pillay who was a good musician who also composed a number of songs 'sarva samaya samarasa kIrtanaigaL' which were immensely popular among the rural folks in the 19thcentury and early part of the 20th century (pre independance)! Apart from 'bhakti' it is the patina of Hinduism in CM which is what is holding out other faith groups from adopting it openly though they enjoy CM immensely in private. And it is perhaps the 'weakness' of that patina that has made HM more universal. I would appreciate Coolkarni's comments in this regard since he has a more 'catholic' experience of both CM and HM!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 11 Feb 2008, 09:54

CML,
Good to know your computer 'aint misbehaving' all the time. Still, it needs chastening so that you can be with us more...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2008, 13:12

Thanks Arasi. We can discuss a lot about such things ( where do motivations to do stuff come from if it is not to be based on results, in practical terms). As CML suggested, may be in a separate thread under Bhakthi section, though this may not strictly come under bhakthi.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2008, 13:41

Sangeet Rasik wrote:

Sharangadeva, in the third chapter of his "Sangita Ratnakara" has enumerated the characteristics of an ideal vaggeyakara. Rajan Parrikar has paraphrased these from Shringy and Sharma (vol 2, chapter 3). I am cutting and pasting directly from the following link:

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05012000/musicarts.asp

This list is quite interesting to reflect on. Individually each one seems like an obvious requirement but bringing them together in one list is a good contribution. I guess most of them are relatable to the current times. If I understand the overall thoughts of Sarangadeva right, a vaggeyakara should be knowledgeable in literature, music ( both ragas and thalas ), local customs and a highly developed sense of aesthetics in combining prose, melody and rhythm.

I wonder why 'Maturity in the understanding of different prabandhas' is listed as a basic requirement for the 'best category' vaggeyakara. Was Bakthi/religious themed compositions were the norm during Sarangadeva's times? ( I am assuming here that Prabandas are religious themed compositions )

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 12 Feb 2008, 08:43

Thanks all for continuing the discussion, will be back soon with more detailed posts. CML, look forward to seeing you back in the fray after overcoming the computer issues. VGV seems to be out of the forum, maybe he will relent and return if I sing "bhaja govindam" !

SR

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 10:40

AND, tyAgarAjam bhajarE.
VGV,
The forum awaits...

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 12 Feb 2008, 10:53

arasi wrote:AND, tyAgarAjam bhajarE.
VGV,
The forum awaits...

I have been thinking the same. A composition reflecting the life of Saint TyagarAja by SR will surely bring VGV back..

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 12 Feb 2008, 11:16

cmlover wrote:VK/Uday/Arasi/Kaapi/SR/Vidya...and of course VGV

I have always wondered how the scenario of CM would have changed if T had been a devout christian (albeit a 'convert') as he was coeval with vednayagam pillay who was a good musician who also composed a number of songs 'sarva samaya samarasa kIrtanaigaL' which were immensely popular among the rural folks in the 19thcentury and early part of the 20th century (pre independance)! Apart from 'bhakti' it is the patina of Hinduism in CM which is what is holding out other faith groups from adopting it openly though they enjoy CM immensely in private. And it is perhaps the 'weakness' of that patina that has made HM more universal. I would appreciate Coolkarni's comments in this regard since he has a more 'catholic' experience of both CM and HM!

cmlover, which or what CM they enjoy immensely in private?
The biggest difference between HM and CM is that CM started as bhakti sangeet and remained that way. Addions of same kind were done on the base. Just like vedas or upanishads are patina of this faith, CM also is like that. First of all they invented something and they sang for themselves. How can it be patina or control or hold? However the CM takeaways talas, ragas can be used by anyone. What is the reason that none of these other faith groups used the theory and created a cm stream for them? There is no known obstruction by any one. isn't it? The other faith groups cannot enjoy the existing CM. But is'nt that the same way as this faith group sings highlighting their belief?

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 12 Feb 2008, 17:02

Iâ€™m trying to figure out how yakshas, kinnaras (half-man-half-horse) and gandharvas (half-man-half-bird) functioned in the context of musical tradition(s). There seems to have been close interactions between the yakshas and the kinnaras who entertained in the court of King Kubera. In the case of the gandharvas, it remains controversial whether they descended from Brahma or Sage Kasyapa. Be that as it may, there are definite pointers to the fact that the gandharvas were the guardians of â€œsoma,â€

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 21:23

bacchanals and serenades??
JUST KIDDING...
knandago,
What you say (ask) is interesting.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Feb 2008, 21:43

I have had contacts with Srilankan Tamil communities and have attended their church functions. Occasionally I have heard remarkable CM songs on christ (well sung but with different intonations!) with lovely aalaapana and nerevals etc. I was told that they never sing them in public concerts out of reverance to God! CM did penetrate Srilanka even olden times and enjoyed immense popularity among the Hindu community. The other religious groups did enjoy CM immensely but resented the emphasis on Hindu Gods. Vedanayagam pillai's songs were quite popular in this context. See
http://www.geocities.com/promiserani2/co1078.html
Lakshman may have his CM compositions with Notations. His 'karuNaalaya nidhiyE' is still being sung at concerts (unnikrishnan does!) but for whatever reason others are ignored. I have been told that he did compose several kIrtanas on christ which were listened to by the rural folks in those days. Due to lack of encouragement or of shishya parampara they were lost !

CM intrinsically is a scientific system of music. It used to be in the exclusive domain of Brahmins and devadasis of yore. Times have changed and a number of non-brahmin hindus (even westerners) are now taking to it. It is time to widen the horizons that CM appreciation becomes Universal.

By the by can anybody enlighten whether there are kritis on christ or Islam in Kannada or Telugu? (I know there are a few in Malayalam which again is not a popular CM language barring selected kritis of Svati (and Tulasivanam of late)!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Feb 2008, 21:50

cmlover wrote:By the by can anybody enlighten whether there are kritis on christ or Islam in Kannada or Telugu? (I know there are a few in Malayalam which again is not a popular CM language barring selected kritis of Svati (and Tulasivanam of late)!

I do remember that Vijay Siva sang a song on Allah around 8 years back at Kalakshetra. Dont remember the name of the composer or the language though.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2008, 22:19

Way to go Vijay (the singer I mean)! A great example of how you can be catholic and traditional at the same time...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Feb 2008, 22:27

Yes indeed Vijay (Siva).
Cienu,
Was it by any chance allA, allA, allA by Subramanya Bharati??

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Feb 2008, 23:00

Arasi,

I think you are right. This function was organised in connection with Kalki Sadasivam's centenary year celebrations. And Vijay sang this so beautifully !

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 13 Feb 2008, 05:07

cmlover wrote:It used to be in the exclusive domain of Brahmins and devadasis of yore. Times have changed and a number of non-brahmin hindus (even westerners) are now taking to it. It is time to widen the horizons that CM appreciation becomes Universal.

Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?

Yesudas has also sung Christian and Muslim items, I can't remember the name of the Muslim item I heard but it was not by Parati. It is both funny and sad that people can be aware that music is taught through a gurukulam system and also posit that there is no obstruction to students outside the fold.

Sangeet Rasik · Post by **Sangeet Rasik** » 13 Feb 2008, 06:28

Please continue discussion on related topics. I will be back on this thread soon. Just wanted to mention that my definition of "secular themes" was related to topics which have no prominent "religious/faith-based" orientation, and not in the sense of representing multiple religions. Of course, the role of CM in the latter sense is also a topic that fits OK in this thread.

SR

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Feb 2008, 06:31

Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?

Nathikan: I have heard of the Isai Vellalar. Is that an inclusive name to cover the devadasi community, nattuvanar as well as the nadaswaram and thavil artists? Also, how about Mridangam players? Just for my info.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2008, 07:11

Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?

Let us call a spade a spade. No euphemisms

It was no shame in those days to have a devadasi concubine. In fact many musicians did have close asociations with devadasis and were it not for them some of our precious CM would have gotten lost! There was indeed a stigma attached to high-class women performing CM in public. But many were versatile in devotional songs which they would sing inside their family circles and would also teach to their near relatives. But I am quite surprised why men (non-brahmins) would not freely perform publicly though they had the knowledge and ability. The Tanjore Quartets were not brahmins but never had a sishya parampara. However nadasvaram and nattuvaangam were in the exclusive domain of the non-brahmins!

I am aware that KJY did try to sing christian CM songs but the 'quality' was poor indeed. Or was it the prejudice that prevented those songs becoming popular. There were also excellent compositions of erotic nature in Tamil (similar to kshEtravya in Telugu) which were freely sung during wedding concerts but never in public concerts (most of which were in Temple surroundings). Those CM songs are now lost for ever except in some stray vinyls ! Let us admit it,; our forefathers were 'prudes' in conformity with the Victorian style

As much as there is a 'revolution' in bharatanATyam there is a need for an enlightened revolution in CM where 'erotic songs' are no longer taboo! Are you ready ? Especially the anti-bhakti-brigade

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Feb 2008, 07:18

CML, I think nathikan's point is that you have left out a lot of people and if you use the generic term Isai Vellalar, that will include a lot more people in that musical community that you speak of.

But I am quite surprised why men (non-brahmins) would not freely perform publicly though they had the knowledge and ability

Interesting observation about the non-brahmin Men. We have got a lot of past baggage to explain and understand about our (recent) history. Court musicians were probably from all castes but the various public singers of fame from yore all seem to be brahmin.

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 13 Feb 2008, 07:45

cmlover wrote:
Why do you say devadasis rather than Isai Vellalar, which would include nattuvanars, nadaswaram players etc. Weren't othuvars from different castes?
Let us call a spade a spade. No euphemisms

The members of the caste are the people to judge what the appropriate name is. My point was only that saying that Carnatic music was the province of Brahmins and devadasis ignores the musical contributions of the male members of the Isai Vellalar community, as well as Othuvars. To Vasanthakokilam, my understanding is that Isai Vellalar men played in the Chinna Melam and Periya Melam, which would include mridangam, kanjira etc.

SR, I also agree that secular means irreligious rather than ecumenical. I was hoping this thread would contain more references to specific ungodly songs, isn't BMK's Isaiyil Sangathigal an example?

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:45

cmlover wrote:As much as there is a 'revolution' in bharatanATyam there is a need for an enlightened revolution in CM where 'erotic songs' are no longer taboo! Are you ready ? Especially the anti-bhakti-brigade

CML, maybe I understood it wrong, but there has been no anti-bhakti brigade in CM. I guess many will agree with me when I say that many non-bhakti songs (even popular ones) have been wrongly classified as bhakti music and this has given rise to a belief that CM is only bhakti oriented. But I dont see any anti-bhakti brigade.

How can brighas give rise to bhakti or singing a varna in two or three speeds give rise to any more bhakti? How can a tani avartana or raga alapana give rise to bhakti by themselves? Also even sahityas that represent bhakti are not entirely rendered in a way that is purely bhakti oriented.

So we have to acknowledge that there is more to CM than bhakti. Bhakti is merely one part of CM.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 13 Feb 2008, 14:59

vasanthakokilam wrote:Interesting observation about the non-brahmin Men. We have got a lot of past baggage to explain and understand about our (recent) history. Court musicians were probably from all castes but the various public singers of fame from yore all seem to be brahmin.

Thats because the brahmins had a passion/fascination for the sciences from the earliest times that they cultivated and guarded zealously from outsiders. We can see this spirit of inquiry in as early back as the Nasadiya Sukta. Sciences include all kinds of codified knowledge. Its this that gave them the edge to play the game of intellectual dominance vis-a-vis the others.

That is not an indication of ability or disability of anyone. Even in the past there have been many Ekalavyas specially in South India. But the Brahmins (every one of them) made it their life's purpose to excel in one or more of the sciences, so its hard to compare them with the others who were probably not inclined (collectively) as much to learn things as to just lead a normal life maintaining status quo.

So a small minority catapulted themselves to the forefront of developed society through their pursuit of the sciences, and was unwilling to share the knowledge with the majority since such sharing would make them lose their much coveted power and respect.

Another reason is that with the advent of Muslims and subsequently the Europeans, Indian society underwent radical changes (specially in colonial india). This put a lot of brahmins out of their heriditary profession of being purohitas. Being predominantly knowledge workers, they had to diversify into related fields of knowledge (since they didnt think any manual or physical work worth their while).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2008, 21:07

Dear nathikan
Let us not waste time on semantics. It does not matter as long as we understand what group (which includes members of both sex) that I am referring to. However the Othuvaar had a genre of music which is not entirely CM as we label it today. Similarly 'nATTupaaDal' will not qualify as a full member of CM. CM has a very clear grammar and rules. The sound of a cannon though interesting can be fitted into a raga and tala pattern but it will not become CM. Cricket is different from Baseball though there are many elements of similarity

'Secularization' of CM means exploiting and extending CM within its framework without shaking its foundations.

Chembai

I am unwilling to admit that 'varNAshrama' was intended to keep off folks through selfish aggrandizement (though it happened

but was intended to promote excellence in various aspects of human quality. It was wrong to have prevented non-brahmins from acquiring knowledge of the Art of CM. It is equally wrong for the non-brahmins of today not taking advantage of the opportnities and developing and displaying their talents but keep blaming the brahmins for their past possessive nature. The story of KJY is a shining example which CVB had the foresight to initiate, but the aspiring KJY's of today are unwilling to emulate his better qualities but focus just on his financial success

Let us remember that the original 'tamil' Trinity were all non-brahmins who contributed to the building the foundations of CM, but what is preventing now the evolution of a new breed of Trinity from contributing to excellence in CM?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Feb 2008, 22:06

CML, srkris: There are two issues here. One is 'why there were not many non brahmin musicians, say in the late 18th and 19th century' which is what you two are referring to now. Srkris, in my humble opinion, music ( CM Included ) does not require any scientific enquiry ( though CM is musicologists' pet subject since it has enough things to analyze scientifically but up to a point but the practise of music as an art form was not through scientific enquiry). So it is hard to buy that 'scientific enquiry' rationale at all. I can readily see that the dominant brahmins, having acquired the musical skills, refused to take Shishyas from other castes ( there are exceptions, like MD ) and the rest of sociological environment then also played a huge role to sustain such discrimination. Having said that, I thought the royal courts had musicians from all walks of life and castes, did not they?

Second issue is, as CML wondered, which I joined, about highly skilled non-brahmin Men ( from the isai vellalar community ), were not known to have given grand public concerts whereas women from the same community had done so. That is a bit of an intriguing social phenomenon.

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 13 Feb 2008, 22:11

srkris wrote:But the Brahmins (every one of them) made it their life's purpose to excel in one or more of the sciences

Every one of them! What branch of the sciences did child widows excel in, I wonder, the science of being inauspicious? Forget about recent scholarship, your precis displays a disturbing lack of familiarity with the jokes in Sangam literature, on how Brahmins just drone while the Jains use reason.

I'm not going to respond to the comments above except to say that it really saddens me that so much knowledge about Carnatic music should be held by such deeply prejudiced people.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Feb 2008, 22:17

Nathikan: Hold on a bit, there is no need to have a short fuse ( I am referring to your last sentence ). Agreed the issue we are talking about can provoke deep emotional responses but this is a discussion. If, on first opportunity, you pass such value judgement on the poster, it will stifle the focus on the discussion topic. Cool it a bit and I am sure you will find it a useful discussion.

Also, as a preemptive request to everyone, let us keep the caste related discussion relevant to music and not the general caste system issues.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Feb 2008, 22:35

Well said VK!
Once a phyysician throws up his hands and rants as he diagnoses a serious illness, he is never going to cure the patient!

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 13 Feb 2008, 23:28

vasanthakokilam wrote:Nathikan: Hold on a bit, there is no need to have a short fuse ( I am referring to your last sentence ). Agreed the issue we are talking about can provoke deep emotional responses but this is a discussion. If, on first opportunity, you pass such value judgement on the poster, it will stifle the focus on the discussion topic. Cool it a bit and I am sure you will find it a useful discussion.

As a matter of fact, I was extremely restrained in comparison to what I responded to. And the fact that that sort of thinking sits in the same minds as a deep knowledge of Carnatic music is what limits Carnatic music's appeal.

Perhaps the point of that sort of thinking is precisely to limit its appeal, but I prefer to be less cynical.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Feb 2008, 08:02

Food for thought

How Often people speak of the absurdity of believing that Life should exist by Gods Will, on one minute part of the immense Universe.
There is a parallel absurdity which we are asked to believe ..
that God chose a tiny colony of a Roman Empire to be born.

Strangely enough two absurdities seem easier to believe than one.
Graham Greene

Instead of having faith, which is a virtue , and therefore nourishes the soul and gives it a healthy life, people merely have a lot of opinions, which excite the soul but dont give it anything to feed it .
Just to wear it out until it falls over from exhaustion.
An opinion isn't one thing or the other; it is neither science nor faith .
But has a little bit of either one.
It is a rationalisation bolstered up by some orthodoxy which you happen to respect , which naturally starves the mind ,instead of feeding it.
Faith is a virtue , an active habit which cannot even pretend to rationalise anything :
IT SEEKS WHAT IS BEYOND REASON
Thomas Merton

One of the problems of traditional religion is that it doesnt take the human body into account except as a metaphor----
It leaves us in the darkness with all of our physical yearnings , as though the spirit and soul were apart from the body , and knowledge is in Heaven.
Tom Jenks

As to the Miracle ............of Poetry
There is truly but one miracle.
The perpetual fact of Being and Becoming, the ceaseless saliency , the transit from the Vast to the Particular .
Which miracle , one and the same , has for its most universal name , the Word GOD.
Take one or two steps from any fact in nature or art , and you will come out full on this fact ; as you may penetrate the forest in any direction and go on.....
And you will come to the Sea.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

If there is a God , Atheism must strike HIM as less of an insult than Religion.
The Goncourt Journal

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Feb 2008, 11:48

One of the problems of traditional religion is that it doesnt take the human body into account except as a metaphor----
It leaves us in the darkness with all of our physical yearnings , as though the spirit and soul were apart from the body , and knowledge is in Heaven.
Tom Jenks

I always thought that it is a easy theological case to make that all our (abstract) Gods have taken human form and so that is a good enough reason for celebrating the body, but that never took in most religions. I recently heard that Mormonism is one religion which actually uses that fact to give the body a high stature than many other religions. Mormon families, quite conservative they are, encourage their children to take up dancing and merriment of such type as a way of celebrating the body that their God Himself took. Anyway, just a point for reference, not much relevant to the thread.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 14 Feb 2008, 22:14

At the outset, I must ask everyone to bear with me as I type my jumbled thoughts here. May even qualify for 'flight of ideas' and the psychologists and psychiatrists on the forum may rightfully wonder if other requirements for a diagnosis of major psychosis are met! Sorry for the length of the post.
DISCLAIMER: This is just my opinion. I am not addressing any single person's POV, but rather the collective.

I have been following this discussion, and can't help feeling that the take home message here is that it is the theme of the songs (specifically their religious nature, and in particular the Hindu religion) that have limited the popularity of CM, and that compositions on secular themes will broaden the appeal and make it more popular.

In my take on this, these are two separate issues (lack of more secular themes and lack of a broader appeal) and the two may even have a statistical relationship if some one did a regression analysis, but as we say in the biological sciences, a 'relationship' does not imply causation.

Secular themes or lack thereof

I do not think that there is a complete absence of secular themes in the currently available repertoire. A few examples would be:

Topic of universal brotherhood:
maitrIm bhajata - a very secular composition....

Topic of love:
kATruveLiyiDai kaNNammA
SuTTum vizhi SuDar - a revolutionary one for bhAratI's times where he asks for a 'premarital' kiss....

Topic of national integration and Patriotism:
a whole bunch of bhAratI's songs

Topic of praising accomplished humans (narastuti):
OVK's compositions on tulsI dAs, rAmdAs, purandaradAsa
MV compositions on tyAgarAja, dIkSitar, syAmA sAstri
Ambujam Krishna's tyAgarAja svAmi
Kalki's compositions on bhAratI, MK Gandhi

The numerous padams and jAvaLIs...

Non-denominational if not exactly secular:
Compositions of vedanAykam piLLai - especially ones like O hO kAlamE
may be we can include maitrIm bhajata in this category
etc., etc., etc.

The purpose of this list is not to be exhaustive, but to just give an idea of what is already out there.

Speculation:
The point of enumerating these was to state that these compositions have been around, and probably were sung, but failed to attract 'newer audiences who would have listened to CM if ONLY it were secular', and died a natural death because the audience that listened to CM (that set of old fogies who only appreciate religious themed compositions) did not like these compositions.

Increasing the popularity of CM

I think that the reason CM appeals to a small group of people is the music itself and not the compositions. If we invoke the compositions, then we accept that compositions in general and their lyrics in particular are of interest. Which may be anathema to the 'true' CM rasika who I think qualifies as a sort of 'advaitin' - lyrics disappear in the music, and all that remains in the bliss. Such individuals could not care if the person sang 'katrikkAi venDaikkAi viTrEn', or 'kAdannavAriki'. This group is a small one in my opinion. The next group is what I call the 'dvaitins' for whom both lyrics and the music are equally important, and this maybe the group that forms the 'clique' that decides what sort of compositions are 'in' and what sort don't make the cut! (The ones on this forum IMO range from 'advaitins' to 'viSishTAdvaitins'!)

People have tried to broaden the appeal of CM with experiments that have met with varying degrees of success.

Experiments done so far
1. Singing compositions in various languages: Starting with mIrA bhajans to the now (in)famous abhangs, I think the idiom of CM has permitted some of these songs (again the dvaitin composition police may have tolerated these because of their undeniable bhakti theme). The success is probably varied - on the one hand, the 'true' rasika feels that practitioners who resort to these are 'populist' and therefore substandard - for who would want to use gimmickry to popularize oneself, except for the ones who are not sure that their true 'unadulerated' worth is not enough to make the 'cut'....OTOH, there are people who listen to CM because of these 'experiments' - I have a friend from Bombay (a rAjasthAnI) who listens to CM today because he listened to his grandmother playing MSS's mIrA bhajans growing up.

2. mellisai experiments a la kunnakuDi and apaswaram rAmjI....A mixed bag - dismissed by the 'true' rasika, but yet immensely popular. Some of these experiments are like the 'hooked on classics' experiments tried in the Western World some time ago.

Bottom Line: While compositions based on secular themes are to encouraged, and certainly should not be censored by the 'composition police', I think it is too simplistic to say that:
1. encouraging secular compositions, and having a flood of them will broaden the appeal of CM. OR that
2. not encouraging secular themed compositions will sound the death knell of CM.

I think neither is correct, and trying to find such solutions is probably going to be as futile as looking for one or even a few genes that determine susceptibility to complex diseases like diabetes. The reason why CM is not popular is multi factorial (the very name 'carnAtik' unfortunately raises the specter of ancient and fossilized music that no amount of secularizing will overcome IMO â€“ at least in Tamil Nadu and among tamizh speaking youths), and the impact of each of these variables on the outcome is probably too low (small r2 for the statistically inclined), that changes in one, or even a few of these variables are unlikely to impact the big picture. If ALL of the variables are changed at once, it may cease to be CM!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Feb 2008, 22:37

VK
Too bad Mitt got out of the race

If he had stayed and won

then yankees would have learned to worship the body down to the underclothes

http://dekerivers.wordpress.com/2008/01 ... underwear/

nathikan · Post by **nathikan** » 15 Feb 2008, 06:06

rshankar wrote:Bottom Line: While compositions based on secular themes are to encouraged, and certainly should not be censored by the 'composition police', I think it is too simplistic to say that:
1. encouraging secular compositions, and having a flood of them will broaden the appeal of CM.

Your list of secular compositions is not very long and is a rather more loose definition of secular than I myself would employ, but on this issue: perhaps it is like "tipping point" where there doesn't seem to be an effect until the number of secular compositions reaches some critical mass.

Do you think that the Thamizh Isai movement aroused a wider/deeper interest in Carnatic music among people? My impression is yes, and I have noticed the class diversity of Thamizh-oriented Carnatic concerts versus general concerts, by the same artists. I also notice that bn with contemporary themes attract audiences who might not go to see a traditional margam (which may or may not be a good thing, I'm just noticing).

But let me say that I do think that even if the effect is slight in a statistical sense, it would make me happy because my friends would go with me to kutcheris, and that has to count for something.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Feb 2008, 06:45

Well writtten, rshankar.. I like your comparisions based on the 'melody'- 'lyrics' duality. That is quite true. Especially the undifferntiated amalgam of melody and lyrics rings true for me.. The sonic aspects of the words ( even if I do not understand the meaning ) combined with the melody is the main attraction. If I understand the words in such a context, it is icing on the cake. So, for me personally, secular themed lyrics are fine as long as it satisfies that 'advaithic' aesthetic criteria of lyrics and melody.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Feb 2008, 09:48

Ravi,
Your thoughts are worth pondering over. Just with the same care with which you spend quite a bit of your time in the service of helping others with the lyrics and their meaning , you have thought about the whole thing in a caring manner--not in 'just for an argument' sort of way. I say this because I want those who do not know of your service to know where you come from.
Though I am a vAggEyakArA, I look back into my childhood and think of the way I understood (or did not!) the words and still could derive a lot of pleasure in singing and listening to songs. Of course, hte more I understood, the better it was. Even now, while I wish people pay more attention to the words, as I said in the 'referring to notes by performers' thread, it is no big deal for me if a word is fudged or changed (aptly!) if it comes to that.

VK,
You are so right. The 'sonic aspects of the words combined with the melody' is the main attraction. I see it over and over again in concerts. Tamizhs appreciating a 'jagadOddhArana' or the very start of a 'nagumOmu'.Non-tamizhs nodding their heads in appreciation for a 'kuRai onRumillai' or an 'eppo varuvArO?'.

nathigan,
As rasikAs, of course, if more of our friends are drawn to CM, we would all be very happy indeed!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Feb 2008, 12:30

Excellent summary Ravi, and I entirely agree with your conclusions...the focus ought to be on music...the lyrics can certainly enhance appreciation but I am realy doubtful whether lyrics alone can carry the art forward and if they do, whether that is a desirable development.

Which is why I have a fundamental problem with the Thamizh Isai movement (in response to Nathikan) even if I ignore the small-minded parochialism of it (not unlike the rampaging hordes at Shivaji Park though, fortunately, less militant). What a disaster it would have been, had it somehow succeeded...and I am not sure whether class is relevant here...the upper/middle classes are also mostly unfamiliar with Telugu/Sanksrit - so why should Tamil concerts attract a broader social spectrum? To take the example of Sanjay, who presents a lot of Tamizh compositions - one notices no great change in the social composition of the audience except that it tends to be even more conservative (musically) than usual, thanks to the artiste's uncompromising classisicm.

Natikan, BN with contemporary themes certainily attracts a more diverse audience but it is probably not the sort of diversity you have in mind...you usually get a bunch of socialites out to flaunt their designer kitsch..."the other festival" of the park is one such

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Feb 2008, 12:59

To take the example of Sanjay, who presents a lot of Tamizh compositions - one notices no great change in the social composition of the audience except that it tends to be even more conservative (musically) than usual, thanks to the artiste's uncompromising classisicm.

It will be interesting to see how that plays out over the years. My expectation would be that Sanjay will grow the size of the audience, possibly bringing in people who are not traditionally into CM. But the debate would be whether that happened because of his personality or his classisicm or his wide repertoire including tamil compositions.

We have come a long way from those Tamizh Isai movement times. Now Sanjay singing a whole concert of Tamil songs is not a big deal. That is the sign of any movement succeeding over the long run. The enigmatic thing for me about Tamizh Isai movement is that there was a need for such a movement in the first place.

I do not understand why a convincing argument could not have been made then along the lines we are talking about here: Quality and Classicicm comes first no matter what the language of the composition is. That is a powerful enough argument in any musical context to disarm both sides' strawman positions/arguments in a dignified manner. In the context of this thread, it has to be recast as 'Quality and Classicism comes first no matter what subject matter the composition is about, secular or otherwise'.

A pleasing melody and a good rhyhm drawn from and soaked in the CM foundations plus poetic words on a subject that is meaningful to the current generation should be good enough for any generation.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Feb 2008, 13:41

VK that an all-Tamizh concert (even Sanjay usually includes a couple of trinity songs - and really seems to revel in Thyagaraja krithis) is an exception to the norm is a clear indication that the movement - which sought to exclude all non-Tamil compositions from concerts in TN - has utterly failed. Quality composers like GKB Papanasam Sivan and others would have been popular even without the crutches of such a movement. As you say, quality and classisicm should come first irrespective of language and theme...

As for Sanjay, I know many rasikas (mostly Tamilians) who are slightly put off because of the overdose of unfamiliar krithis! Their loss, entirely, but if he is growing the size of the audience, his choice of krithis plays a relatively small part as compared to the quality of his music...and perhaps to his personality as well. Besides, there have been others with an even stronger commitment to Tamil songs but aren't as popular...Sanjay strikes a balance between the familiar and the unfamiliar, and exercises judgment even while leaning towards his mother tongue - that is what I would call a sensible approach. Chest thumping regionalism, on the other hand, will eventually find its way into the gutter...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Feb 2008, 13:51

Vijay: By Tamil Isai Movement, I did not mean to refer to any fringe elements who were advocating excluding non-tamil songs from Tamil Nadu. Such positions are utter rubbish and as you say, belong to the gutter. I am referring to the wing with leading personalities of the day like Kalki, Sadasivam, MSS and others. If I understand right, that arose as a reaction to the powers-to-be then who were stifling the popularization of quality tamil songs. I am sure there were offshoots who were voicing rubbish chest thumping regionlistic statements/positions. That is why I am thinking a statement like 'quality and classicism comes first no matter what language it is in' establishes the quality first without excluding any language including Tamil.

I am sure there were people who made such middle of the road statements then, but as with anything middle of the road, they got run over.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Feb 2008, 15:17

You're right VK. MS, at least, was above such nonsense (not sure about Kalki so will refrain from commenting) - many reasonable people probably got dragged into it on both sides - if my understanding is correct, the opposite camp was also equally stubborn about resisting Tamil compositions.

But the dominating voice was not one of moderation - the tone was not "encourage Tamil compositions" which is reasonable, but a more belligerent "no Telugu/Sankrit compositions"...and I am not sure this was just a fringe element although I'll admit my knowledge of history is weak...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 15 Feb 2008, 18:36

Thanks Vijay, Arasi and VK!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Feb 2008, 19:28

Vijay,
Having been away from India for decades, I do not know the details of the 'political' side of it. VK is thinking more of the general awakening among the litterati in the forties and fifties who with their zeal fired the imagination of my generation as we grew up. There was no politics then when it came to tamizh iSai (by which I simply mean wanting to hear more songs in tamizh). Besides Kalki, T.K.CidambaranadaC Mudaliar, A.Srinivasaraghavan and cA. Ganesan, there were others who were keen on promoting tamihz iSai.
Going back, I cannot think of any better example than Bharati when it comes to tamizh iSai! I am talking about Subramanya Bharati who also loved music and sang aloud his songs and those from the AzhvArs as he walked the beaches and streets. AND he wrote not only in tEn (honey) tamizh but also in sanskrit. He would have sung in telugu, kannaDA and malayALam too, and would have wished it, I bet.
A mind without boundaries keeps what treasures it has and seeks from elsewhere all that is worthwhile. Otherwise, without his vision, in the very short span of his life, he would not have left us a legacy of such an immense wealth of verse and the rest.
If vocalists include a lot of tamizh compositions in their concerts, and choose them on the basis of quality in the lyrics and because of their musical excellence, there is hope indeed...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 15 Feb 2008, 22:58

Thanks for that perspective - I am sure all of us agree on this one!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 16 Feb 2008, 01:46

I was listening to this song and I remembered the discussion of different themes for CM.

For the scientist-composers on this forum themes of inventions of this kind could be inspirational.

http://bio-rad.cnpg.com/lsca/videos/Sci ... BetterPCR/

disclaimer I don't work for this company.