Graha/Sruthi bedam

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:48

Are you aware that C.Rangiah has composed songs with just 1, 2 and 3 swaras?

No wonder he is such a popular composer. (sorry, couldn't resist that!

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:50

jayaram wrote:
Are you aware that C.Rangiah has composed songs with just 1, 2 and 3 swaras?
No wonder he is such a popular composer. (sorry, couldn't resist that!

There are innumerable composers out there, meritorious, yet unknown. Not being famous does not detract from their worth. Please dont make such comments. Adding a smiley does not make any difference.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:52

As a corollary, there are so many "Well- known" composers who do not deserve the acclaim at all. (No. I did not even try to resist this one)

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:55

Sorry, composing a kriti in one swara maybe cute, but doesn't count as something great in my books. You can disagree with that, no difference.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 12 Jan 2007, 04:57

Huh! "Not great in your books"

Anyway, did I say that he was a great composer because he composed a kRti in one swara?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 12 Jan 2007, 06:13

drshrikaanth wrote:The M2 and the absence of P makes the rAga pretty unsteady. M1 would have clinched it. When I try to sing, Im thinking singing it as R3 may be easier than as G2. WIll have to try seriously.

Maybe i am sensing it wrong, but i get it to have the same feel as ranjani with S G2 M2 D2 (as it is indeed a subset of ranjani). A flat G2 and a relatively flat M2, is the only way I can even get a handle on it.

G2-D2 does have S-M type of relationship and so perhaps highlighting them helps?

Arun

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 12 Jan 2007, 23:09

Any popular compositions in Gopriya?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 12 Jan 2007, 23:12

drshrikaanth wrote:
jayaram wrote:
Are you aware that C.Rangiah has composed songs with just 1, 2 and 3 swaras?
No wonder he is such a popular composer. (sorry, couldn't resist that!
There are innumerable composers out there, meritorious, yet unknown. Not being famous does not detract from their worth. Please dont make such comments. Adding a smiley does not make any difference.

If I just go by the one of Sri C.Rangaiah's compositions which I have heard my mother sing, I will definitely put him in the meritorious category.

This composition is a rAgamAlike on rAmAyana - rAmanam bhajisuvenu starting in bilahari.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 13 Jan 2007, 11:05

Please take a look at the ugAbhogas thread ...

-Ramakriya

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 18 Jan 2007, 12:32

going back to DRS' example where
SR2G2M1PD2N2S* - Kharaharapriya becomes
P, D2, N2, S, R2, G3 & M1 - harikambodhi

my doubt is, are the notes R2, G3 and M1 played only in the upper(next) octave only? or they can be played in the original octave also?

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 18 Jan 2007, 14:04

Humdiger Sir,

The base pitch is what is called madyastayi .. one circle of seven swaras from aadhara sadjamam. If pa is chosen for graha bhedam, singing upwards (PA DA NI SA. RI. GA. MA. PA), it becomes harikAmbojhi. Likewise pa ma ga ri sa ni.. da.. pa.. (madya stayi to low stayi), harikAmbojhi will come.

-sb-

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 18 Jan 2007, 14:47

Sindhu Madam,
its clear to me now...thanks for the explanation.

please feel free to address me as humdinger. i am comfortable that way.

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 18 Jan 2007, 15:26

Yes humdinger. Thanks

-sb-

virig · Post by **virig** » 20 Jan 2007, 06:18

Something I found on the topic at carnatica.net. I dunno if it is relevant to the discussion here...

http://carnatica.net/grahabheda.pdf

Giridhar

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 20 Jan 2007, 06:35

Btw, I saw a post appear and disappear in no time here yesterday - provided links to grahabedam related ragas, I think. Can that be re-posted please? (now that the quiz is over, it's ok I guess? :=)

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 20 Jan 2007, 08:29

Grahabedam and Symmetries

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse ... 0000000000

Grahabeda Groups

http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse ... 0000000000

Grahabheda Chart (by our user vasya10 ?) - recommends using > IE 5

http://vasya10.tripod.com/Music/gb76named.xml
http://vasya10.tripod.com/Music/gb75named.xml
http://vasya10.tripod.com/Music/gb74named.xml
http://vasya10.tripod.com/Music/gb73named.xml

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Jan 2007, 23:56

When do artist perform grahabhedam in a concert ?
Main item, RTP, ?

Do we find them in all concerts?

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 21 Jan 2007, 00:22

Sudha Ragunathan did not sing any RTP in either of her two concerts in FL in
OCT/NOV 2006. She did the following grahabhedams in the main piece at
Miami and Tampa respectively,

Kharaharapriya --> Chenchurutti
Kalyani --> Mohanam

She did not sing a RTP, nor did she do a grahabhedam in the main piece (Bhairavi)
at Albany, NY

venkatpv · Post by **venkatpv** » 21 Jan 2007, 00:24

there's no rule as to when to do grahabhedam, though its done mostly in the main or RTP.

i have heard TNS doing grahebhedam in a tiruppugazh!! :rolleyes: the whole track was about 2.5 minutes and he did grahabhedam for 10-15 seconds!!

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 21 Jan 2007, 00:59

There is a magnificient RTP in Abhogi-Valachi by BMK, shared on sangeetham long back by Sri Raju IIRC. Thats a classic case of graha bhedam i think!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 22 Jan 2007, 07:25

humdinger wrote:There is a magnificient RTP in Abhogi-Valachi by BMK, shared on sangeetham long back by Sri Raju IIRC. Thats a classic case of graha bhedam i think!

If my memory serves right, this one was a dvirAga pallavi, without any grahabheda involved at all..

The other well known pallavi sung by BMK (sarigamapadanI pADeda, starting with naThabhairavi) is a very good example of a grahabheda pallavi.

Coolkarni avare,

By any chance do you have a concert version of this pallavi? I have only heard the HMV version.
If you have could you please share with us?

Thanks

-Ramakriya

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Jan 2007, 07:39

my books say
ananda bhairavi-amrithavarshini
bhairavi-sunadavinodini,
But natabhairavi--- ???
the (sarigamapadanI pADeda) however
rings a bell.
let me check it out.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 22 Jan 2007, 07:46

coolkarni wrote:my books say
ananda bhairavi-amrithavarshini
bhairavi-sunadavinodini,
But natabhairavi--- ???
the (sarigamapadanI pADeda) however
rings a bell.
let me check it out.

It was in a old hmv release -

sAhitya is "sarigama padanI pADeda gAnamu tO sariyincheda'

Nathabhairavi
shankarAbharaNa
kalyANi
tODi
kharaharapriya

-Ramakriya

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 22 Jan 2007, 09:17

It was in a old hmv release -

then I guess You will have to sing it and upload.

bmks version will not qualify for upload here.

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 22 Jan 2007, 11:57

ramakriya, i just mentioned that RTP as a case of grahabheda cause they form a grahabheda pair as per this link
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse ... 0000000000

yes,its just a dviraga pallavi but i thought BMK had this in mind when choosing this combo.

anyways, i have a BMK-MSG-TVG-TVV RTP which has a pallavi "sarigamapadani saptaswara rishabhapriyam". he goes in to nagaswaravali, hamsadhwani etc. he even announces some raga names.

i think i got this also from sri raju, but i am not sure if i can upload, the recording is too good to be a concert recording. if someone confirms that its not, i can do that.

shanks · Post by **shanks** » 22 Jan 2007, 18:32

BMK has sung an RTP in nagaswarawali-hamsadwani with pallavi "nagaswarawaliyE hamsadwani", a very nice rendering with MSG-TVG - this was one of the a tapes i lent to someone which did not come back (prior tothe mp3 days).

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 23 Jan 2007, 01:17

coolkarni wrote:
It was in a old hmv release -
then I guess You will have to sing it and upload.

bmks version will not qualify for upload here.

Coolkarni ji,

If I were capable of that

I don't know where I would have been!

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 27 Jan 2007, 05:34

This is NOT a quiz! I just wanted to illustrate the 'trick mind plays' in the perception of grahabhEda. And also wanted to know if it just something wrong with me!:/

http://www.rogepost.com/n/1981023973

Can you identify the rAga of this clip - And tell how easy/difficult it was to identify.

If you can't place the name of the rAga, swara identification would be good enough.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 27 Jan 2007, 06:35

cant place really but seems bageshri like? (although not sure if sense any pa is there).

But i am assuming my answer is wrong anyway

Arun

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 27 Jan 2007, 07:03

Isn't this a Lalgudi tillana .... tillang?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2007, 10:32

I also get the thillana with Tilang flavour. ..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Jan 2007, 15:04

This sounds like varamu- i.e hindOLa with a caturaSuti dhaivata. varamu is the pancama mUrchane of tilang(not really as tilang has both N2 & N3). This is the tillAna, supposedly in tilang

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/z4K ... As1NMvHdW/

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 28 Jan 2007, 07:47

Yes, it is the Lalgudi Jayaraman tillAna in tilang - I wanted to see if everyone can perceive tilang in it or not. I see there is almost an even yes/no.

As DRS indicates, it sounds lot like varamu ( S G2 M1 D2 N2 S - S N2 D2 M1 G2 S), with some anyasvara prayOga in gAndhAra to me. Arunk says it is bAgesri like, which is also somewhat true, exept for absence of panchama)- And the reason is also evident these two rAgas forming a grahabheda pair.

The composition being set in madhyama shruti, with no sanchara above tAra shaDja, and the graha (beginning) note for pallavi falling on mandra panchama all add up, and create the varamu effect for me. To notice the tilang underneath, I have to really make an effort.

I wonder how, and why, some will catch the tilang first, and some others get the varamu* first. This is exactly the same reason why some of us saw hamsadhavani in nAgaswarAvaLi

in the quiz audio round.

Here is a short clip where I tried to illustrate this effect by singing the notes around the pallavi of the tillAna;

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?a ... DD509AC76E

BTW, the tillAna is in tilang; The 2 nishAda prayOgas are clearly seen in towards the end of the composition.

-Ramakriya

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 28 Jan 2007, 08:23

wonder how, and why, some will catch the tilang first, and some others get the varamu* first.

Oh My God !

I first caught the AIR Bhadravathi broadcast.
Then what I had heard from that famous tape of lalgudi.
Then what I had read in the tape Sleeve,
Then what i had written for marking my Track !!

:D

madhurya · Post by **madhurya** » 11 May 2007, 12:37

have you heard the revathi thillana of lalgudi sir -sung by MLV akka? when she sings velano inthe charanam she quickly goes into sunadavinodini and back to revathi in a flash. :rolleyes:

madhurya · Post by **madhurya** » 15 May 2007, 15:02

i would look at Melakarthas when i want to explain this phenomenon. there are what are called Murchanakaaraka melas. The melas are capable of yielding one or more different scales when the tonic note or aadhaara shadja is shifted from one svara to the other...as from sa to ri, ri to ga..and so on ..all the while maintaining the self same notes.just as sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, dha,ni,sa ..are sounded ...ri, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni, sa, ri...ga,ma,pa,dha,ni,sa,ri,ga...etc are sounded..but the svaras places are the same as the basic mela.
For example,
The 29th mela Shankarabharana,
sa,(ri1),ri2/(ga1),(ga2),ga3,ma1,(ma2),pa,(da1),da2/(ni1),(ni2),ni3,sa
to make it simpler,
i'm using - in place of absent svaras...
sa,-,ri,-,ga,ma,-,pa,-,da,-,ni,sa -we will shift the mode to ri now.
--,-,sa,-,ri, ga,-,ma,-,pa,-,da,ni,-,sa.
look at this murchanai now...sa,there is a space for ri1...so ri2...just beside ri2 is the place of ga2..the space is for ga3...so ma1...aplace for ma2..pa,aplace for da1...so da2...just beside da2 is ni2...a space for ni3...then sa.shadja..chatushruti rishabha..saadhaarana gaandhaara,shuddha madhyama,panchama,cha.daivata and kaishiki nishada gives you the 22nd mela kharaharapriya. if you write it down on a sheet ofpaper with 2 octave markings this will be easier to follow.

madhurya · Post by **madhurya** » 15 May 2007, 15:11

it takes a lot of expertise to flow in and out of such modal shifts.Musicians like MLV Akka used to show this a lot.If you can listen to Akka singing Lalgudi Sir's Revathi Thillana..she has just gracefully glided into sunadavinodini-a ri murchana of Revathi-...when she sings "veelanooo"..yannai eno marandaan.

kalgada78 · Post by **kalgada78** » 15 May 2007, 18:44

I personally liked this approach to arrive at other scales with Graha Bedham :

Mohanam :

S R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N1 N2 S - R1 R2

1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 - 0 1
↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕
Shift to R2: 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1
↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕ ↕
(s) R1 R2 G1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N1 N2 S -- MadhyamAvati.
Similarly,other ragas at G P D respectlively.

Sarma.

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 15 May 2007, 19:37

Admin :
This is a duplicate of,

Index Â» Sangeeta Kalalaya Â» Graha/Sruthi bedam

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=633

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 15 May 2007, 19:51

Yes thanjavur- i have merged the two threads now.

clueless · Post by **clueless** » 01 Aug 2007, 04:00

also, i forgot to mention the beautiful graha bedham to mOhanam during the kalyANi AlApanai and tAnam

Couldn't you could also get to Mohanam from Kalyani without actually changing the tonic ( Would it be called Varjam or Swara Bhedam?). Is this an acceptable form of Manodharma?

Clueless

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Aug 2007, 06:43

clueless,

You question "varyja or swara bhedam" is not clear, but here are some general thoughts...

The only way of getting to mohanam from kalyani is to make S and P varjya (an allowable practice when singing kalyani alapana) and then use R as the reference or tonic. Obviously once the varjya is accomplished you can, by right emphasis, make believe any of the other related pentatonics like suddha saveri, etc.. Then there's the thrill of reintroducing S and P and getting back to kalyani. Standard operating procedure, as you know.

You cannot get to mohanam from kalyani while retaining the tonic because no mohanam phrase except those that just involve S R G (which would be too trivial to call mohanam) can be sung within the kalyani template. You cannot make M or N varjya because that's not allowed in kalyani.

An example of just varjya without any change in tonic to get to another raga might be showing shades of hindolam when singing todi. You can make the P varjya (allowed in todi) and sing phrases involving G M D N S.

I don't know that there are any rules regarding allowable varjyas in any raga but the practice seems quite intuitive (and I'm almost tempted to say "and that's the beauty of Carnatic music

).

Hope that helps,

equally clueless

Uday

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Aug 2007, 07:59

Hey great post Uday. I was also a bit confused by grahabedham from kalyani to mohanam and was thinking "isnt mohanam sort of a subset - why do grahabedham?"

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 01 Aug 2007, 10:47

I must have listened to varja prayogas a million times in Kalyani (including this concert) without ever realizing the "graha bedham" angle!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 01 Aug 2007, 12:21

Like Uday says Mohanam (or Hamsadhwani, Amritavarshini, etc) are not permissible from the tonic while singing kalyani.

I can imagine a review where a critical reviewer writes "She could have avoided shades of Mohanam during her Kalyani alapana".

Sruti or Greha bedham is a totally different concept.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:24

vijay,

varjya prayogas in kalyani have a stand-alone beauty to them.

In fact I would argue that most of the kalyani varjya prayogas are indulged in for their own sake and not to leverage any graha bhedam angles.

So great is this beauty that the main kalyani equivalent raag in Hindustani, yaman (the other is shudhdh Kalyan or something like that) has an arohana that has been made explicitly varjya: N R G M D N.

What beauty the prayogas N R G and M D N add to the raga.

Some separate thoughts on graha bhedam
------------------------------------------------

graha bhedam can be shown fleetingly but after that it becomes a meaningless "ho hum, who cares" exercise. I personally find it irritating beyond a few seconds.

Sadly, some Carnatic rasikas (and musicians) who are ingrained with an excellent monotonic lakshya-based gnyanam (the superior kind of Carnatic gnyanam in my opinion) are unnecessarily mesmerized by graha bhedam. I know people with really superior lakshya gnyanam who think it is the cat's whiskers to be able to do a silly graha bhedam because they themselves somehow cannot wrap their heads around it.

People with even a very limited background in western music, where the tonic shifts frequently, might be puzzled by the fuss over a simple tonic shift. The simple beatles song "yesterday" shifts the tonic from Sa to Da in the second line itself ( "all my troubles...".) !!

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:32

Good to know that Ram will at least continue to chip in with technical observations...I really enjoyed the concert post Andholika esp. the RTP but I know she is capable of much more than she managed on that day.

Brilliant venue though! A real find...I wish this hall were also used during the season...

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:48

Thanks Uday - yeah, the varjas Kalyani have a very special appeal indeed. Thodi as well. The concept of graha bedham fascinates because our imagination is attuned to the SRGM system - breaking out of it requires a bit or "unlearning" and a solid understading of "pure notes" (or at least a rough grasp of an inherently infinitesimal concept).

To illustrate, while singing an alaapana and shifting the tonic, one can smell the graha bedham, identify the shift in tonic and based on the intervals work out the resultant ragam...but to identify the ragam without the aid of theory needs a really good ear. At least I can't...

I am not sure westerners understand melodic systems enough to be able to appreciate the concept. But if a musician can identify the interval between 2 randomly sounded notes, I suppose he/she can consider himself/herself a master of swara bedham!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Aug 2007, 18:23

...We listen to music without having any theoretical knowledge of what we are hearing. The tonic change in the Beatles song is news to me! Actually I winder if Lennon and Macartney actually knew what they were doing, especially in the early songs! Some of the pop and rock composers had classical training; others just had a knack, and, in some it turned out to be a truly wonderful knack.

The key-change for one verse, though, was at one time a 'standard effect' in commercial pop tunes.

clueless · Post by **clueless** » 01 Aug 2007, 19:00

Thanks, Uday, for the explanation.

Still clueless, but maybe a little less so.