Ragam - Tanam - Pallavi
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Kaumaaram & VK,
It was indeed lack of time that seems to have forced Chembai to do that miniature RTP.
Earlier on, when he asks the organiser "Ramachandra Iyer, mani pathu aache poradha? Indha kezhavan innum padanuma?" ("Ramachandra Iyer, the time is 10PM, shall I wrap up? Do you want this old man to sing any more?)
To which Ramachandra Iyer replies "Padra varaikkum keppom" ("We will listen as long as you sing")
Chembai replies back "Padra varaikkum paadalaam. Doctora ketta theriyum. Innum rendu kirtanam paadi niruthikaren" ("I can sing as long as I want, but my doctor wills otherwise. I will conclude after two more kritis").
Later after those 2 kritis, when one of his disciples on stage reminds him that there had been no RTP so far, this RTP was the immediate output.
It was indeed lack of time that seems to have forced Chembai to do that miniature RTP.
Earlier on, when he asks the organiser "Ramachandra Iyer, mani pathu aache poradha? Indha kezhavan innum padanuma?" ("Ramachandra Iyer, the time is 10PM, shall I wrap up? Do you want this old man to sing any more?)
To which Ramachandra Iyer replies "Padra varaikkum keppom" ("We will listen as long as you sing")
Chembai replies back "Padra varaikkum paadalaam. Doctora ketta theriyum. Innum rendu kirtanam paadi niruthikaren" ("I can sing as long as I want, but my doctor wills otherwise. I will conclude after two more kritis").
Later after those 2 kritis, when one of his disciples on stage reminds him that there had been no RTP so far, this RTP was the immediate output.
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Thanks Srkris, for that clarification. But the fact remains that a RTP could be rendered within 5 or 7 minutes and that too so effectively. And Chembai alone could do it! Please let us know the details of the accompanying artists.
All,
I have posted rest of the songs under the Vidwans-Chembai thread.
Kaumaaram
All,
I have posted rest of the songs under the Vidwans-Chembai thread.
Kaumaaram
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Kaumaaram sir,
Thanks for the Chembai concert and the crisp RTP. Just to refute that Chembai alone can sing an RTP.....following is the link to a mini-RTP in SimhEndramadhyamam (6:30) in Musicindiaonline.com by MMI.
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/PJQ ... As1NMvHdW/
This one contains a micro-svara prastAram and a nano-tani Avartanam too!!!
-vrbadri.
Thanks for the Chembai concert and the crisp RTP. Just to refute that Chembai alone can sing an RTP.....following is the link to a mini-RTP in SimhEndramadhyamam (6:30) in Musicindiaonline.com by MMI.
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/PJQ ... As1NMvHdW/
This one contains a micro-svara prastAram and a nano-tani Avartanam too!!!
-vrbadri.
some day in the future we have to discuss these 78 rpm classics in more detail.it is amazing that the artistes could pack so much into just three minutes and create an effect that would haunt listeners for decades !
i remember a short clip of basavraj rajguru's rendering of shudh sarang.it was such a classic case .by the 70th second he had covered so much territory.will try to fish it out.
semmangudis ethavunnara also comes to mind immediately.
i remember a short clip of basavraj rajguru's rendering of shudh sarang.it was such a classic case .by the 70th second he had covered so much territory.will try to fish it out.
semmangudis ethavunnara also comes to mind immediately.
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Shri.Coolkarni,coolkarni wrote:while we wait for rapidshares recovery,
i have uploaded TRS's Lec Dem on Demystifying Pallavi singing through mega upload in four parts.
it is a 140 minute long lecture.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=195RKLJS
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19R7IH8B
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19RDPJNM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19QKV0K3
We can use this opprtunity to make a complete assessment of megaupload.
Hence all feedback on this alternative mode would be most welcome.
Can you please re-upload the above Lecture Demos?
Thanks alot
GanesanSabarivasan
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Sir,gsabari wrote:Shri.Coolkarni,coolkarni wrote:while we wait for rapidshares recovery,
i have uploaded TRS's Lec Dem on Demystifying Pallavi singing through mega upload in four parts.
it is a 140 minute long lecture.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=195RKLJS
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19R7IH8B
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19RDPJNM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19QKV0K3
We can use this opprtunity to make a complete assessment of megaupload.
Hence all feedback on this alternative mode would be most welcome.
Can you please re-upload the above Lecture Demos?
Thanks alot
GanesanSabarivasan
Can you please re-upload the above Lecture Demos?
GanesanSabarivasan
a new link to a zipfile that contains all the 4 tracks in
the lec dem .
http://www.badongo.com/file/2114635
Courtesy Badri
gsabari
I hope you will be the one to reupload , the next time a request is made by a newcomer.
the lec dem .
http://www.badongo.com/file/2114635
Courtesy Badri
gsabari
I hope you will be the one to reupload , the next time a request is made by a newcomer.
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Sir,coolkarni wrote:a new link to a zipfile that contains all the 4 tracks in
the lec dem .
http://www.badongo.com/file/2114635
Courtesy Badri
gsabari
I hope you will be the one to reupload , the next time a request is made by a newcomer.
Thanks a lot.
Have a wonderful day
regards
GanesanSabarivasan
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Jypothsna and Ragjay..
I dont upload full sets any longer.However clips from those sets will be uploaded as and when a discussion demands it.
This is in line with the sentiments of the people who gave them to me(obviously close to the artists or their families) and represent their official stance with respect to use of these material in public forums.
Thanks for the Understanding.
I dont upload full sets any longer.However clips from those sets will be uploaded as and when a discussion demands it.
This is in line with the sentiments of the people who gave them to me(obviously close to the artists or their families) and represent their official stance with respect to use of these material in public forums.
Thanks for the Understanding.
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Tala experts -what is the tala of the last major pallavi that TRS sings in this lec-dem. The pallavi starts in Mohanam and he elaborates neraval in Bowli, Nilambari etc.coolkarni wrote:a new link to a zipfile that contains all the 4 tracks in
the lec dem .
http://www.badongo.com/file/2114635
It is located in the 3rd track and goes on to the 4th track
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Mohan - I am no expert but it appeared as a 40 matra tala so your overall count looks OK. However the arudhi seems to be after 16 matras so the post-arudhi portion appears to be 24 matras. In addition, it seems to be a chaturashra-nadai pallavi. So my guess would be Madhya Talam i.e laghu + dhritam + laghu with the arudhi after the first laghu. More opinions?
Ram Kaushik
Ram Kaushik
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On the sangeethapriya site, a 2005 TNK concert has been uploaded under "Anonymous." I am very new to the carnatic music world and am totally unable to identify the raga presented in the RTP of that concert. I wonder if anyone could help me. This was the first carnatic concert I have attended, and I honestly could not describe how magical it was. Thank you very much.
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Kedaragowla.. I thinkbilahari wrote:On the sangeethapriya site, a 2005 TNK concert has been uploaded under "Anonymous." I am very new to the carnatic music world and am totally unable to identify the raga presented in the RTP of that concert. I wonder if anyone could help me. This was the first carnatic concert I have attended, and I honestly could not describe how magical it was. Thank you very much.
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~rasika/
part 2 has the RTP
Last edited by Suji Ram on 12 Feb 2007, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
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vElaip paNivadE en vElai- atikAlai avan kAlai vaDi- |
I would go with caturaSra jAti maThya tALa with the padagarbha/arudi, as expected, falling on the start of the druta. The pallavi starts on the sama(or atItagraha if we take "vaDi" as the start. The take up after tani however does not favour this interpretation).
However, triSra jAti aTa tALa is also plausible if we take the eDupu/start from the 3rd finger count(Ring finger). Then the padagarbha will fal again on the start of the 1st druta. The deciding point would/should have been the number of akSharas from the arudi at the end of the pallavi)after the tani). But sadly, the artistes appear to have erred here as the number of akSharas that they play brings us back to the start of arudi, which is no good for us
I would go with caturaSra jAti maThya tALa with the padagarbha/arudi, as expected, falling on the start of the druta. The pallavi starts on the sama(or atItagraha if we take "vaDi" as the start. The take up after tani however does not favour this interpretation).
However, triSra jAti aTa tALa is also plausible if we take the eDupu/start from the 3rd finger count(Ring finger). Then the padagarbha will fal again on the start of the 1st druta. The deciding point would/should have been the number of akSharas from the arudi at the end of the pallavi)after the tani). But sadly, the artistes appear to have erred here as the number of akSharas that they play brings us back to the start of arudi, which is no good for us
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Re: Ragam - Tanam - Pallavi
Uptil now the discussion here has been focused on sharing recordings of some fantastic RTPs by great artistes, and interesting anecdotes regarding some of these stellar RTP renditions.
Rather than open a new thread, I thought since this thread is already present, and the questions I had were relevant to this topic, I'd just post them here. I hope others do not mind. The conversation we might have will be very different from what took place here before.
I thought we could discuss our opinions about some typical features about an RTP, and learn more about this hallowed aspect of Manodharma Sangeetham.
Firstly I'd like to get the opinions of the learned rasikas on this forum on these questions-
1. What is the purpose of singing an RTP? What is its exact role in the Concert sphere, and also what is its role in the wider Carnatic world?
2. Can the R, the T, and the P be elaborated separately? {Eg. If I only sing an elaborate Pallavi, and not present ragalapanam or tanam before it, am I doing something incorrect and detrimental to the artform?}
3. What do you think of ragamalika swarams in an RTP performance? Its importance, relevance, aesthetic impression e.t.c.
4. What do you think about a ragamalika RTP? {Eg. Sri, Ranjani, Sriranjani}Its importance, relevance, aesthetic impression e.t.c.
Please do feel free to even add any other questions or raise other issues regarding the RTP form.
I thought we could have a discussion on this topic, it might be more engaging and also less controversial.
Rather than open a new thread, I thought since this thread is already present, and the questions I had were relevant to this topic, I'd just post them here. I hope others do not mind. The conversation we might have will be very different from what took place here before.
I thought we could discuss our opinions about some typical features about an RTP, and learn more about this hallowed aspect of Manodharma Sangeetham.
Firstly I'd like to get the opinions of the learned rasikas on this forum on these questions-
1. What is the purpose of singing an RTP? What is its exact role in the Concert sphere, and also what is its role in the wider Carnatic world?
2. Can the R, the T, and the P be elaborated separately? {Eg. If I only sing an elaborate Pallavi, and not present ragalapanam or tanam before it, am I doing something incorrect and detrimental to the artform?}
3. What do you think of ragamalika swarams in an RTP performance? Its importance, relevance, aesthetic impression e.t.c.
4. What do you think about a ragamalika RTP? {Eg. Sri, Ranjani, Sriranjani}Its importance, relevance, aesthetic impression e.t.c.
Please do feel free to even add any other questions or raise other issues regarding the RTP form.
I thought we could have a discussion on this topic, it might be more engaging and also less controversial.
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Re: Ragam - Tanam - Pallavi
1. I believe the RTP is a platform to explore a raga to its fullest extent while showcasing the vidwat of the artiste. This leads directly to (3) - I'm not a fan. Especially when the ragamalika portion takes over half of the entire presentation.
2. I don't mind, as long as full justice is done to each segment.
4. I find that this often crosses the thin line between aesthetic and gauche. Also brings up the same concern established with respect to (2).
2. I don't mind, as long as full justice is done to each segment.
4. I find that this often crosses the thin line between aesthetic and gauche. Also brings up the same concern established with respect to (2).
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Re: Ragam - Tanam - Pallavi
1. In agreement with shreyas, RTP is a piece in which the artiste demonstrates his/her vidwat in a detailed exposition of a ragam. I also think it is a nice way to bring a fresh piece into a concert. All of us would have heard the same varnams, main pieces, and so on dozens of times, but barring exceptions, pallavis are almost always unique.
2. I believe this is just a matter of tradition. While such deviation may be jarring, it may not be strictly wrong, because nothing is strictly wrong. However, there is value in the accepted tradition which has a progression in rhythmic complexity, for example, that adds to the beauty of the whole piece. This may not be as cohesive if the parts are presented separately. Similarly, singing alapana not immediately prior to a krithi in the same raga may not be technically wrong, but has far less aesthetic value.
3. I don't remember where I heard this, but apparently GNB was the first one to sing ragamalika swarams in RTP. This practise is not necessary but can be pleasing if rendered in moderation.
4. Ragamalika RTP as a concept can be good, of course, in order to show contrast. It can also be an effective way to include a raga that is difficult to sing for a long time or becomes repetitive quickly. One could make the argument that it is the job of the artiste to make sure that this doesn't happen, of course, but this barrier is the main reason why we keep hearing the same Shanmukhapriya, Thodi, and Kalyani over and over again from even top musicians. A tasteful blend of two minor ragams (one I have heard is Abhogi and Amruthavarshini, for example), can be refreshing.
That being said, I have a special contempt for the combinations that are purely name-based, the most common being some permutation of Ranjani/Sriranjani/Janaranjani/Manoranjani/Niranjani. These combinations are personally very irritating because these ragams may have nothing interesting with respect to one another, other than that they happen to have parallel-sounding names. When two ragams are presented together, effort should be made to show some particular contrast or aesthetic combination, rather than just relying on a superficial characteristic like its name. However, that is only one man's opinion.
2. I believe this is just a matter of tradition. While such deviation may be jarring, it may not be strictly wrong, because nothing is strictly wrong. However, there is value in the accepted tradition which has a progression in rhythmic complexity, for example, that adds to the beauty of the whole piece. This may not be as cohesive if the parts are presented separately. Similarly, singing alapana not immediately prior to a krithi in the same raga may not be technically wrong, but has far less aesthetic value.
3. I don't remember where I heard this, but apparently GNB was the first one to sing ragamalika swarams in RTP. This practise is not necessary but can be pleasing if rendered in moderation.
4. Ragamalika RTP as a concept can be good, of course, in order to show contrast. It can also be an effective way to include a raga that is difficult to sing for a long time or becomes repetitive quickly. One could make the argument that it is the job of the artiste to make sure that this doesn't happen, of course, but this barrier is the main reason why we keep hearing the same Shanmukhapriya, Thodi, and Kalyani over and over again from even top musicians. A tasteful blend of two minor ragams (one I have heard is Abhogi and Amruthavarshini, for example), can be refreshing.
That being said, I have a special contempt for the combinations that are purely name-based, the most common being some permutation of Ranjani/Sriranjani/Janaranjani/Manoranjani/Niranjani. These combinations are personally very irritating because these ragams may have nothing interesting with respect to one another, other than that they happen to have parallel-sounding names. When two ragams are presented together, effort should be made to show some particular contrast or aesthetic combination, rather than just relying on a superficial characteristic like its name. However, that is only one man's opinion.
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Re:
But I am not at all getting this rapid share linkscoolkarni wrote: ↑25 Jun 2005, 21:40 while we wait for rapidshares recovery,
i have uploaded TRS's Lec Dem on Demystifying Pallavi singing through mega upload in four parts.
it is a 140 minute long lecture.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=195RKLJS
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19R7IH8B
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19RDPJNM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19QKV0K3
We can use this opprtunity to make a complete assessment of megaupload.
Hence all feedback on this alternative mode would be most welcome.
The browser is showing, " this site can't be reached".
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Re: Re:
Ha, @SivaniVSPG24 , Coolji uploaded this in 2005. 16 years ago It defo will not be available now. Check out TRS Lec Dems in Sangeethapriya.org. You might get it over there.SivaniVSPG24 wrote: ↑02 Apr 2021, 17:46But I am not at all getting this rapid share linkscoolkarni wrote: ↑25 Jun 2005, 21:40 while we wait for rapidshares recovery,
i have uploaded TRS's Lec Dem on Demystifying Pallavi singing through mega upload in four parts.
it is a 140 minute long lecture.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=195RKLJS
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19R7IH8B
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19RDPJNM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=19QKV0K3
We can use this opprtunity to make a complete assessment of megaupload.
Hence all feedback on this alternative mode would be most welcome.
The browser is showing, " this site can't be reached".
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Re: Ragam - Tanam - Pallavi
There is a 4hr 48min long audio file on his archive.org account titled Pallavi Demystifying. It may be what you are looking for.
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Re: Ragam - Tanam - Pallavi
There was a memorial program on TRS @Arkay as well - I will find the link. There in a clip TRS was seen demonstrating a rhythmically complex pallavi in the rAgA pIlu. "pAhai uruguvai nenjE" . He was already sizing up the contemporary audience , when he spelt out what is unique about this pallavi.
1) It is intelligible to most audience who are tamizh speaking instead of some obscure unintelligible I guess telugu line. Tanjore Sankara Iyer had a different advice. Choose lines / words which are already familiar to the audience. And was there a big break in Audience continuity? Suddenly some tamizh zeolots started showing up in CM concerts?
2) It appeals to those looking for rhythmic complexity - like me I suppose. Or the accompanists will be enthused. SrI Harishankar was sitting there in that Lec Dem. I don't understand - only when the rhythm comes in, the word complexity also makes it's appearance! Else rAgA is prowess , creativity and vidvat!
3) And finally - he added - it appeals to the kind of audience who enjoy rAgAs like pIlu.
TRS demystifying pallavi is highly deceptive! His layam is set at some other level and this is nothing to do with rhythmic complexity. You will see it in a rUpakam or Adi tALa Usi pallavi. mattatellAm Usi pOna pallavi - like Usi paTTasu - bussunu poiDum.
And of course he was already giving up on rAgA this and rAgA that!
1) It is intelligible to most audience who are tamizh speaking instead of some obscure unintelligible I guess telugu line. Tanjore Sankara Iyer had a different advice. Choose lines / words which are already familiar to the audience. And was there a big break in Audience continuity? Suddenly some tamizh zeolots started showing up in CM concerts?
2) It appeals to those looking for rhythmic complexity - like me I suppose. Or the accompanists will be enthused. SrI Harishankar was sitting there in that Lec Dem. I don't understand - only when the rhythm comes in, the word complexity also makes it's appearance! Else rAgA is prowess , creativity and vidvat!
3) And finally - he added - it appeals to the kind of audience who enjoy rAgAs like pIlu.
TRS demystifying pallavi is highly deceptive! His layam is set at some other level and this is nothing to do with rhythmic complexity. You will see it in a rUpakam or Adi tALa Usi pallavi. mattatellAm Usi pOna pallavi - like Usi paTTasu - bussunu poiDum.
And of course he was already giving up on rAgA this and rAgA that!