Ragas without shadjam?

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 30 Aug 2010, 18:33

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post on this forum. I have been following the updates here however for quite a long time and have learnt a lot from all of you.

This is a very interesting discussion.

From a Western classical perspective, It almost reminds me of a comment that a critic once made about the "Atonal Music" of Schoenberg , Berg and Webern.One of my favorite videos on Youtube is one where Yehudi Menuhin and Glenn Gould are discussing the music of Schoenberg. Yehudi almost admits that he does not like the composer!!!

Personally I find it very difficult to appreciate this music even though I have tried it quite often and I have often wondered whether the problem is cultural ; that I somehow am looking for that tonic "Sa" in every tune. Now this critic said that whenever a performer or listener becomes familiar with this Atonal music , he is almost always hearing a "tonic Sa" in his head...and so it is not really Atonal!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Aug 2010, 19:12

cml - I dont know how you are hearing M2

- Pitchappa is quite sure about avoiding it (not that he is predictable

). The "sa" with ni - a tinge is probably there in one place when ascending from da (and in case, I would have thought that would actually help you towards kiravani rather than confuse you

). That was a challenge to avoid and so there may be other places of inadvertant tinge.

But there is a flat long ni (N3 of course) without sa tinge at 0:58 - 1:03 (and soon after too) this is somewhat un-carnatic in the sense it would give a filmy look if you are tuned to the right Sa (e.g. kATril endan gItam in Johny by Ilayaraa)

The ma (M1) in ascent is "swallowed"/"muffled"/"fudged" due to singer's inabilities

. So while a clear rgmpd.... could have been easily done (in retrospective), the "gmp" towards da was muffled on "attempted" gamakas on ga and ma. But on descent there is a m-g-ri...... at about time index: 7.27 seconds - 10.81 seconds. and also 16.515s-19.58s (i.e. m-g-r...). But there is a long flat M1 towards the end at 1:32.63 - 1:36.39

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Aug 2010, 20:11

Sure enough there is the long M1 @ 1:32 - 1:36. But the shake on it is moving it closer to M2 which is what I was picking up. Now analytically
SR2G2M1PD1N3S' --(S deleted) -- R2G2M1PD1N3 -- (R2-->S) -- SR1G2M1M2D2 -- Not a CM raga!
Explain!!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Aug 2010, 20:36

cmlover wrote:Sure enough there is the long M1 @ 1:32 - 1:36. But the shake on it is moving it closer to M2 which is what I was picking up

|(

!. Either your rabbit has 3 legs, or mine has. If you insist it is yours - let it be so. No problem.

Now analytically
SR2G2M1PD1N3S' --(S deleted) -- R2G2M1PD1N3 -- (R2-->S) -- SR1G2M1M2D2 -- Not a CM raga!
Explain!!

1. Who said ri is sa here? Are you forgetting the topic of this thread? Why cant it be pa? Why cant it be ni?
2. Even so, who said it isnt a carnatic raga

?

Arun

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 31 Aug 2010, 21:05

Krazy4music wrote:From a Western classical perspective, It almost reminds me of a comment that a critic once made about the "Atonal Music" of Schoenberg , Berg and Webern.One of my favorite videos on Youtube is one where Yehudi Menuhin and Glenn Gould are discussing the music of Schoenberg. Yehudi almost admits that he does not like the composer!!!

I couldn't locate the youtube clip you refer to. Could someone provide a pointer please? Thanks.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Aug 2010, 23:57

Arun
Give up! What is the raga?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Sep 2010, 00:22

cml - Sorry, I didnt know you were still trying

- Because it was already revealed to be kiravani. It was first suggested by Suji, and then revealed by SR. I thought you posted about kiravani without ma after that (?)

People say it reminded them of Saveri. This could be because of the da~~ (gamaka with pa i.e. pa-da-pa-da... like in saveri. This can be be confirmed if time indices are known.

Pantuvarali - not sure unless Pa appears subconciously as tonic in which case P D1 N3 => S R1 G3. Again time indices may help.

Arun

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 01 Sep 2010, 00:46

I came across this intriguing article on 'complementary ragas' that may have some relevance here.

There's a statement that caught my attention: "However, a quick observation reveals that this definition is incorrect, as it yields ragas without a Shadaj (Sa)! Without doubt, Sa should not be removed from the set of notes. Similarly, in ragas containing Pancham (Pa), there exist times when it becomes essential for the C-Raga to contain Pa to be aesthetically pleasing."

Can someone please explain what the article is talking about (it's been a long while since I have dealt with set theory etc!) and whether we can draw any useful ideas for our current discussion.

Krazy4music · Post by **Krazy4music** » 01 Sep 2010, 15:16

Hi Ragam-talam,

Actually I am sitting in my office and typing this. Hence I don't have access to youtube. I will try and send you the link sometime later during the week.Apologies for this.

Thanks for the link. Here is what I understood:-

Let us assume that we have a Raga Mohanam :- using the notes S R2 G3 P D S

Now a complement of this raga is all the notes of a scale that are not present in Mohanam. So if i was using Sankarabharanam scale since Mohanam is a Janya then the complement of Mohanam is just the notes ( M, N). Obviously this is not enough for any Raga.

But now assume that i don't use Sankarabharanam scale but i use all the 12 key-board Notes i.e (S R1 R2 G2 G3 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N2 N3 ). Now the compliment of Mohanam (Mohanam = S R2 G3 P D2 ) is (R1 G2 M1 M2 D1 N1 N2).

Sandeep is saying that this Raga can be considered as the Absolute opposite of Mohanam -at least mathematically.You could try playing (R1 G2 M1 M2 D1 N1 N2) this up and down on a Key-board and see how it sounds. Chances are that it is not asthetically pleasing.

What sandeep is now saying that we may need to make the following changes :-

1) Let us add Sa to make this complementary scale sound more pleasing.So our new scale is:- (S R1 G2 M1 M2 D1 N1 N2).
2) Sometimes these Ragas can be made more pleasing by adding a P note. This is just an Aesthetic decision and is really our choice. So our new mohanam compliment may look like (S R1 G2 M1 M2 P D1 N1 N2).

So far it seems like just mathematical jugglery. But what is really interesting about this article is when one of the Standard Ragas has yeilded another Standard Raga as a complement. Sandeep gives the following examples :-

Basant Mukhari /Madhuwanti
Bhairavi/Yaman, Suddha Kalyan
Bhairav/Hemavati

It may be interesting to find out if our traditional literature supports Sandeep's idea. For e.g Bhairav( Carnatic Mayamalavagowla ) has a complement in Hemavati. But are they really opposites as per our literature;If Bhairav is an early morning Raga, then is Hemavati a Late Night Raga. If Bhairav is for Shiva then is Hemavati for Parvati. If Bhairav is supposed to evoke Pathos then is Hemavati supposed to be more upbeat.

I doubt that this would be the case. We look at music as more of an inter-relation between notes and this approach is the kind of approach that may make more sense in a Western framework(which looks at intervals etc)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Sep 2010, 21:36

Arun
I did understand that the raga is Kiravani and also sensed the shades of it. But my original quest was what raga Pitchappa wa trying to convey using the R2 G2M1PD1N3?
Each of us have conveyed our guess but nothing was convincing. I was trying to map it successively trying to take each note as the adhara shadjam. By taking M1 as shadjam I got it
mapped as D2N2SR2G2M2 a pratimadhyama hextonic raga which has no name! May I call it Pitchappa vinodini

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 01 Sep 2010, 21:52

cml,

My idea was to convey not to convey a new raga but convey a "kiravani sans-sa" while the rest of notes to remain in reference to the missing sa (sort of like sa/pa varja tODi). That it didnt resemble kiravani while somewhat "disappointing" is also not surprising. If you take an important swara out of a raga, then can we expect the raga chAyal to remain? And this case, we have taken (literally) the mother of all swaras out

. That this works for tODi or kalyani or perhaps even pantuvarali is perhaps due to conditioning - that from our experience we have perhaps assigned a broader melodic palette to them.

But the basic idea was to avoid giving the perception of a different tonic e.g. to prevent the listener from a perception that the kiravani ri or pa as sa and thus map to a sruthi-bedham equivalent. I am not sure if that was achieved. That it resembles no known raga could actually be a sign of success, but then I dont think we have famous sruthi-bedham equivalents for keeravani itself. One way to know is for each of you to listen and see if you l which "pitch" you perceived (if any) as tonic -
1. Is it one the swaras being sung
2. or if it is that "missing sa"
3. or if it is "atonic" (as in hard to get a feel for it or may be hard to pin-point on one throughout the melody.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Sep 2010, 22:51

arunk wrote:That it resembles no known raga could actually be a sign of success, but then I dont think we have famous sruthi-bedham equivalents for keeravani itself. .

Arun

I see your point. This shows that shadjam is a 'jiva' swara of most ragas. The lack of shruti bhedam may let us designate it as 'atonic'. Though atonic ragas may sound weird, it may be worth experimenting on them! Thanks for spawning the idea for a new area for research!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 02 Sep 2010, 16:35

This shows that shadjam is a 'jiva' swara of most ragas.

Possibly, but is it possible to put together even one raga sans the shadjam? Surely, there must be at least one out there...

And k4m - thanks a lot for the explanation.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Sep 2010, 19:48

ragam-talam wrote:Possibly, but is it possible to put together even one raga sans the shadjam? Surely, there must be at least one out there.

Hey! I thought we did one

But are you looking for the original raga to come through? Then this may be better possible with todi, kalyani and as I theorized that could be due to conditioning (but also could be due their structure - although I dont know how). For other ragas, I would theorize that we do depend on the overarching presence of Sa to relate to their melodic identities and thus its absence would change its identity significantly.

Arun

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 03 Sep 2010, 01:57

But are you looking for the original raga to come through?

Not quite. I was just thinking it may be better to start with some of the more 'established' ragas like, yes, kalyani, MMGowla etc. - strip them of the shadjam, and see what remains. And perhaps just use the panchamam (including perhaps the higher octave pa) for the drone, so that the sa doesn't 'intrude'.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Sep 2010, 08:33

I am not sure you would find anything more. In kalyani like tODi the sa/pa varja is common. Same with pantuvarali. So possibilties are
A. one hears the sa/pa varja of raga
B. Something totally new (like in kiravani example above),
C. One hears some sruthi bedham equivalent (if known).

For all other ragas it would probably be B or C.

One reason why I picked kiravani was because it had N3 and so jump from N3-R2 wont be too wide. This would be better with MMG/Pantuvarali but I hitting R1 and N3 accurately while skipping sa - that is tough - a bit too tough for me.

I was fooling around with the guitar with pantuvarali without sa and using "pa" for relief. And soon my ears "resolved" to "pa". And with pa as tonic and without sa - you get hamsAnandi - which sort of has the same melodic feel (or say in the same neighborhood). I found that interesting.

Arun

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 03 Sep 2010, 17:27

Arun - this is interesting. Assuming yours is an exhaustive list, can we come up with a set of characteristics of a ragam that can result in A, B or C outcome when the shadja is removed? Of course, we would need to test this theory with some real examples.

Btw, I am not convinced the kiravani exercise we went thru is quite accurate. I say this mainly because the rendition was not upto mark! (a few 'annya' swaras did creep in...!)

Perhaps an instrumental rendition would help in this. Do you want to provide us a guitar rendition - or VK can help?
Suggested ragas: Kalyani, MMG (for A), not sure which ones for B and C.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Sep 2010, 18:50

This would be better done with someone more experienced. Uday should be able to easily pull it off.

I can try guitar but I can guarantee poor results

(I cannot get most of the gamakas on the guitar - although I know how Prasanna does it, I am not good enough nor have I practiced long enough to try those).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Sep 2010, 21:44

Here is another sample, this time anchoring on familiar phrases, along with sruthi in the background. I would like to see if there is any confusion here as to what the Sa of the piece is..

First sample: http://www.esnips.com/doc/0bc10146-8565 ... osaSample2

In this first sample, the raga identification is less important. See if you latch on to raga complex/family ( and even not necessarily a single melakartha ) to which it belongs.

Second Sample: http://www.esnips.com/doc/110a0976-51e3 ... oSaSample3

In this second sample, the raga, without playing Sa but with background sruthi, is hopefully unambiguously identifiable.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Sep 2010, 22:45

good job vk! I think got the intent on the both - although how is the second one different from say a start of an alapana where the artist has stayed within a confined portion of a raga. I mean if I am not mistaken you have not "jumped across" sa into the other octaves (?)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Sep 2010, 23:04

Thanks Arun. Here is a link spanning octaves without Sa. It is probably not kosher with respect to the raga lakshana but hopefully quickly gets back in sync to the raga bhava.

Third Sample: http://www.esnips.com/doc/823d972f-d4ce ... oSaSample4

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Sep 2010, 23:23

Since you started with known phrases of a well known phrase-oriented raga I think it was not hard to keep our bearings straight. It is interesting that in this case (to me) it did not seem like a "certain unique shade" of an existing raga (i.e. like say the pa/sa varjya of todi). It seemed like a stock example of the same raga. So either you did a very good job, or this may be the case for phrase oriented ragas or (if one uses recognizable sans-sa stock phrases of any raga) or both

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Sep 2010, 23:31

There are myriads of phrases in most ragas which do not include shadjam!
So what does it prove? But the gamaka on the other swaras (since sa/pa are gamaka varjyam) define the character of the raga...

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 04 Sep 2010, 00:20

VK - enjoyed your clips very much. As Arun has mentioned, listening to the earlier samples tended to 'cement' the raga in the inner mind as it were, hence it was what I heard right from start in the last sample.
It would be interesting if you could try out another raga where you traverse to the higher octave.

Managed to track down the video clips that krazy4music was referring to.
1. Sampling of Schoenberg's atonic music: http://youtu.be/Gmf4Z9HsnFQ
It does feel a bit eerie listening to this music! I assume the uneasy feeling one gets is primarily because of the absence of the tonic theme?

2) Gould & Menuhin discussing Schoenberg's musical style: http://youtu.be/av2XTNgA72w
Menuhin seems to express his discomfort with this music. Apparently Schoenberg's music created a bit of stir in the western classical musical world in his time.

The contrast between the above Schoenberg sample and our own music would be the fact that we have so much microtone/gamakam and characteristic phrases in our music that it may more than make up for the absence of the tonic. Do you agree?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 01:13

(From little I gathered in the last 10 minutes) Schoenberg's system uses all 12 tones in a octave with all being treated equal. So think S R1 R2 G2 G3 M1 M2 P D1 D2 N2 N3 but with no special significance to sa or pa or ma or any other swara. Also no role for sa-pa/r2-d2/g3-n3/etc. or sa-ma/m1-n2 type consonant relationships. To treat all 12 tones equally, you avoid repeating a tone until all other 11 have been sounded (but not necessarily in any order). Variety is introduced in phrasing and orchestration. This is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dOI2MtvbA

So there are many reasons for it sounding weird to most of us than just missing a tonal center

. But I am sure it has its fans.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Sep 2010, 01:18

..to me it is white noise

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 01:59

arunk wrote:Since you started with known phrases of a well known phrase-oriented raga I think it was not hard to keep our bearings straight. It is interesting that in this case (to me) it did not seem like a "certain unique shade" of an existing raga (i.e. like say the pa/sa varjya of todi). It seemed like a stock example of the same raga. So either you did a very good job, or this may be the case for phrase oriented ragas or (if one uses recognizable sans-sa stock phrases of any raga) or both

Arun

Exactly. "anchoring with known phrases without S" was my objective with these clips. I felt it should not be a problem and that is how it turned out for me and it looks like for you all as well. I did not try to invent any new lakshnas in the fourth to higher first quadrant movement without Sa but I do not see why a new aesthetic can not be created by some creative folks. In that sense, at least theoretically, it should not be any different from pa/sa varjya of todi. But if it is totally different, then may be a different raga name need to be given.

BTW, that Ri-Ni did sound a bit out of place in the context of that raga, though not unpleasant. May be that is the genesis of some new aesthetic.

Also with the second sample, the traversal was from Ri to Ni. If we can have ragas that go only up to Ni, this is just one more thing on the lower side ( without sa ) and also restricted to the middle octave.

I do not think this is a big departure from our raga structure if there is a back ground sruthi souind. But It is a totally different ballgame wtih out background sruthi, as in Arun's example with kiravani .

( As a side bar note, ( I do not mean to distract from the main focus of this thread ), the essential definition of a raga includes its phrases. Phrase oriented ragas need not even be qualified as such since that is the norm, isn't it?. If there is a non phrase oriented raga, then we can call it out. In this definition, I do consider ragas like Abogi, Hindolam, Bowli, Mohanam etc. as phrase oriented, even though their Arohanam/Avarohanam itself gives out the raga feel.
May be it is just a matter of definition. )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 04:44

My point there are ragas (like big 6) whose phrases are exhaustive. But even there if you simply avoided sa but used characteristic phrases to me this is no different than a portion of an exhaustive alapana

- I am saying you have to show the affinity to the oirigianal but somwhoe show a new shade as a result of omission of sa (?)

Anyway, r-t here is it. Poor result guaranteed

- http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/sansa.mp3

It does have an intended trick but remember that this is guitar, and I havent tried too heard to take out the inherrent western sound (read flat notes, on a equitempered instrument) out.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 05:02

ragam-talam wrote: The contrast between the above Schoenberg sample and our own music would be the fact that we have so much microtone/gamakam and characteristic phrases in our music that it may more than make up for the absence of the tonic. Do you agree?

r-t, playing a raga with out sa is not the same as "absence of the tonic". If there is background sruthi, that defines the tonic. If there is no background sruthi, then it is still good music but there will be some debates on what raga it is, depending what note you latch on to as the tonic ( even if that tonic is not sounded ). Schoenberg on the other hand is extreme in the vivadhi direction along with no tonal center to latch on to. Those two make it something completely different and not worth comparing to a raga based system like ours. ( Schoenberg music is interesting in itself which is a separate topic in itself )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 05:47

To clarify what I meant: One way to do this is to simply consider characteristic phrases of a raga between ri and ni. (or ga and da if ri/ni doesnt exist) and do them. Then either do a direct jump or a one token jump to either lower or upper octave and do phrases there (which dont involve sa). If the raga has enough strongly identifiable characteristic phrases in the area not involving sa, one should be able to bring the original bhava.

However, how about straddling the sa jump freely just like you would say treated ma-da (i.e. jump across pa) in abhogii/sriranjani etc. or ga-pa jump or ri-ma jump. In this region, perhaps there is opportunity for the raga flavor to deviate from the original raga. So theoretically if done right, one says "sounds like a new raga but has definite shades of this other raga - seems allied to it". That would be cool.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 05:57

perhaps there is opportunity for the raga flavor to deviate from the original raga. So theoretically if done right, one says "sounds like a new raga but has definite shades of this other raga - seems allied to it". That would be cool.

I understand and agree. I think there is potential there. When I tried that with sahana on the descent, it did sound different, though I did not pursue that beyond just switching quadrants. As long as the background sruthi is there, it should not cause any fundamental issue ( pun intended!! ) and may end up defining a distinct melodic motif with Sa-less prayogas the predominant one.

I listened to your guitar piece once so far. It sounds very good. I will have to listen again. Is this a redo of the kiravani or you intend for us to figure out the raga?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:08

It is not keeravani

- atleast I hope it is not

!!

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:10

OK,

My conception of kiravani is not good, so I thought I will ask.. OK, I am on it..

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:25

I am actually finding something very interesting when I play around with this concept on t he guitar.

Hamsanadam without sa: I find the soon my ears resolve to pa as a tonic (or atleast it gets "relief'). Note that for pa its major third (5/4 => strong consonance) is N3 and its fifth R2 (i.e. its pa 3/2 => strong consonance such) exists in this raga and perhaps that is why.

Now a "modified" ranjani (i picked that it does not have Pa). I took S R2 G2 M2 D2 N3 S and took out sa. Now it resolved to ri. Note that for ri its major third M2 as well as its fifth D2 exists and perhaps that is why. This raga becomes S R1 G3 P D2 S (a valaji/malayamarutham type feel - I see it is called rasikaranjani)

In a tampura when sa is sounded the two other swaras you can hear most "within" is pa and G3. So I think in general resolution perhaps will tend to go to
1. a swara that has both its major-third AND fifth if exists
2. Else swara that has just fifth or third

If you have more than one candidate then perhaps, just perhaps depending on tune you can establish dual tonality.

Not saying resolution will necessarily to go this but I find that I do find relief in those. The same thing happened in kiravani. Pa had resoliution as it had its fifth i.e. R2 and ni i.e. N3. The ri inspite of being a strong note and being dwelled upon did not give relief as it misses its fifth (D2) as well as its third (should be M2?). Now if I tried simhendramadhyamam which does introduce just the M2 - perhaps there would have been relief in R2 also - not sure.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:30

I tried simhendramadhyamam (guitar). My ears resolved to pa as tonic but ri now did seem to provide temporary relief. The raga that came out had bhoopalam/bpwli sayal and that is because it became S R1 G3 P D1 N3 S. Now the G3 is the old ri, and acted as a strong note where I can rest - perhaps not as a final.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:36

Arun, I got the feel of subhapantuvarali in your guitar piece in many places. ( Even if this is wrong, it does not matter.. it had a nice melodic feel no matter what it is )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:39

very close

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:54

I am getting a strong D2 instead of D1..
For some reason sensing Revati! At any rate it is pleasant!
..and yes shubhapantuvarali too!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Sep 2010, 06:58

My wife who is CM-ignorant heard it a few times and loved it and said it lulls her to sleep!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 07:01

Thanks cml and vk

- so you guys are saying retire Pitchappa as the dude cant do a tune

?

cml - The D2 part is not surprising IF you then tell me *per it*, where your sa (or tell me which time-index is where you sense the D2)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 07:15

No, pitchappa has a long career!!

51 then?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 07:31

(Area) 51 indeed.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 04 Sep 2010, 07:37

thought I heard pantuvarali
Like puriya dhanaSri without sa

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 07:39

OK.

We will afford the raga the secretive military prowess.. Here is the feather in the cap of pitchappa, your playing has slightly less of the pratimadhyamam feel, substituting that bit with a tinge of "suspense rasa". I also sensed a bit more sweetness. The perfect sruthi alignment also helps in bringing out the sweetness. Since we are looking for a different aesthetic, may be you have struck upon one.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 08:15

I believe though this type of thing is usually tried by some artists during expansive alapanas of pantuvarali (and maybe purya dhanasri as well). I have certainly heard it - although they may do away with pa as well.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Sep 2010, 20:30

OK! Time coordinates 10 to 16 secs predominantly about 27 secs and around 59 secs..
Most of the time you are gliding into D2 from other notes but sometimes you pluck too!

Retire Pitchappa? Never!!
He is a self-effacing darling

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Sep 2010, 23:12

From those time indices, it looks like G3 - which I have hovered on a lot. Just as I suspected you have subconsciously gravitated towards Pa as Sa. This which would make G3 as D2 and also result in hamsanandi ( P D1 N3 R1 G3 M2 P => S R1 G3 M2 D2 N3 S), a raga that shares some of the characteristics of pantuvarali and has the same melodic mood (so the change may not even be that apparent immediately).

PS: I should note that I am continually amazed at your confident conclusions of this nature usually requiring the other side to make you see the light

- This has happened a few times before. This is somewhat the antithesis of how I approach things. I usually think if something doesn't sound right, then perhaps I am reading it wrong ...

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Sep 2010, 23:45

Yes indeed I took G3 your pa for sa which gave me the strong D2.
How am I supposed to know that your pa was indeed pa

At any rate since hamsanandi is not sensed this could be a new delightful raga!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Sep 2010, 23:49

>How am I supposed to know that your pa was indeed pa

CML, are you using your program to determine all this? or by listening and matching to the background sruthi?

I have one more thought to offer after you answer this.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Sep 2010, 01:02

I am hearing compromised at my age!
I cannot distinguish subtle sounds for which I seek help using my visual software. Once I identify the features I slow down the sounds (amplify them) and then listen carefully...