what is a vivaadi raga?

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 22 Oct 2008, 23:35

arunk

Here are the clippings

G_Sruthi.mp3 - set to G sruthi

http://www.sendspace.com/file/6os9gw

D_Sruthi.mp3 - set to D sruthi

http://www.sendspace.com/file/gdjhhc

I once again discussed with my teacher, who says I am indeed singing in G. I would like to confirm from another source.

Thanks. Thats so nice of you to offer help.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 23 Oct 2008, 21:27

I am very keen to know the findings.

Thanks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2008, 21:49

sramaswamy,

For the G sruthi clip - you are certainly singing in G (but one octave below than what SG Kittappa would

)

For the D sruthi clip however, unless I am mistaken, I believe you are singing in A sruthi - i.e. the pa (sa is D, pa is A). In this case the pa below the D (i.e. mandra pa). You can confirm this by simply comparing your initial "sa" of the G clip with that of the D clip. You are roughly singing one whole tone higher i.e. the sa of the D clip is where the R2 (catusruthi rishabham) of the G clip is.

So basically when singing with D sruthi you are latching on to the panchamam as your shadham.

Here are the two "sas" together - your G sruthi sa first and then your D sruthi sa":

http://www.sendspace.com/file/wg41k9

Try setting the sruthi box to A and sing it like you did with the D sruthi clip.

Arun

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 23 Oct 2008, 22:19

arunk

Thanks. Ah! that explains it now.

arunk wrote:For the D sruthi clip however, unless I am mistaken, I believe you are singing in A sruthi - i.e. the pa (sa is D, pa is A)

I think you meant sa is A and pa is D

Thanks so much for the confirmation. I have to sit down and determine my ideal sruthi.

arunk, once again thank you so much.

I will stop the vivaaditwa that I brought against the heading in this thread, now.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2008, 22:22

no problem. But i did mean sa is D and pa is A - as in from the sruthi box setting's point of view. You are basically taking the pa of the sruthi box setting as your sa.

btw, you have a nice mdrish voice

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2008, 22:24

for ideal sruthi - test against mandra ma and tara pa. You must be able to hit both reliably. If you can hit both for more then one setting, then you have a voice range that is greater (and so it is only better news). Then pick the setting that gives the widest range. Or pick the one where you like your voice "best" (even if it means not the widest range)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2008, 22:36

So the verdict is sramaswamy is singing in 5 kattai at the lower octave. I can see you are very comfortable in going to the higher swaras. How do you find singing the lower octave like madra Ma?

Arun, you mentioned about learning in a sruthi other than one's natural/ideal/comfortable sruthi. If one's normal sruthi is C# or D, singing in lower G is going to pose problems for songs that linger in the lower octave. Is it easy for a vocalist to shift to one's natural sruthi after having learnt it at the sruthi that is comfortable to the teacher?

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 23 Oct 2008, 22:40

OK I will try to pick between G, A and B and test to see if I am able to reach mandara ma and tara pa.

MDR is number one on my list of carnatic musicians way above everyone else. So, you know you made my day as well as rest of the year!

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 23 Oct 2008, 22:51

Yes. When I am singing in G, I have trouble hitting mandara pa and ma. On the other hand, I can show off the ease with which I hit tara sthayi swaras

.

And about whether it is easy to shift one's shruthi between class and individual practice/performance. I think it should not be difficult. Although we start with the swaras of the raga, after sometime, it is the raga pattern that you are singing. When singing Sivaranjani and Mohanam, one sings the two different Ga based on the Ri or Pa.

I have heard of one professional musician who practices at one sruthi and performs in another sruthi. I do not know the reason why.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2008, 23:01

vk - depending on the voice range, G would be just possible or impossible for males in mandra stayi (or even uttanranga and tara stayi if they are attempting it like kittappa). It more often is impossible - i.e. based on average ranges for amateurs etc.

Like I said, I have heard from (and have been advised by ) just about every person I have met who knows more cm than me, that "switching sruthis" between one day and another etc. is a very unhealthy habit. But in spite of that, I do not know how much of this is tinged with superstition or a very strong preference. I can certainly understand that sticking to one sruthi helps most people maintain a rock solid comfort level for that sruthi. But then again if one is really strong in sruthi, then switching cant really be that harmful - right?

I do know that practicing normally in one sruthi and then having to deliver something in another sruthi (say because you are in a group) does affect one's comfort level. You are most comfortable in the sruthi in which you practice most. A shift of one semitone (say C to B) may not have that much affect. But say a male who normally sings in C, has to sing with a group of ladies and the sruthi is say G or F# or F - it is not going to be that natural for him and depending on the person, he may not be able to deliver the most effective performance.

So from all these points, for most of us, sticking to one sruthi always is the best prescription.

In the case of teachers asking students to adjust their sruthi, my take would be that those teachers are (pro or amateur) performers and hence don't want the classes to affect their rock solid comfort to their sruthi. So in this case, students are forced to compromise.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Oct 2008, 23:08

sramaswamy,
nice.
I thought it is difficult for one to sing with pa as sa as you could do it (in D clip).

So is singing in D Sruti with D as your Sa difficult?

In my opinion you would do well with A Sruti (being closer to G)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2008, 23:11

mods - is it possible to move post #38 onwards to a separate thread. I cant think of a good title - "Determining Sruthi to use for singing"? Or may be "sramaswamy's sruthi"

??

Arun

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 23 Oct 2008, 23:34

arunk

Leave alone, switching sruthis from one day to another as unhealthy. What is the need? Violin and Mrudangam can always be adjusted more easily. So I don't see a necessity. But as one famous musician said, the sruthi sense needs to be so perfect that you wake up from sleep and based on the Sa strummed, you should be able to instantly hit an anthara gandharam or sadharna gandharam.

As far as sruthi for teaching, I favour the student adjusting. The teacher is the one who is supposed to show how to sing the song perfectly. So, I will opt for the teacher to be as comfortable as possible. Once you have learnt the song, the student is on one's own and after that it is practice that is going to provide results. But as I write below, maybe there are some possible negative side-effects which one might have to address.

I also want to add that sruthi for each student for practice and performance needs to be given lot of attention so that person is comfortable using his/her entire range. This will potentially influence the student's interest and attention.

Suji Ram

Thanks for your input. This is what might be happening when I was using D as Sa. Having been used Sa at lower G, I might have found D as being pretty high for sa and adjusted so that it became the pa.

I have seen every male using either C, C# or D as their Sruthi, and I thought well that is what I should also be using. But it looks like too high for me. Thanks to all of you, I found out what I am doing wrong. Let me try with A as my base and see how it goes.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 23 Oct 2008, 23:41

arunk / mods

I had started a thread on similar subject because of the same confusion I had

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2232/sruti-for-male-voice/

This can be a possible candidate.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Oct 2008, 23:44

there is a need to shift only in some cases (i) you need to sing in a group (ii) you have to sing in your class for the teacher to correct mistakes etc. - this is assuming that you learn in a different sruthi. But even then maybe you sing in your sruthi and teacher corrects, and the teacher's sruthi is set only when initially learning.

Otherwise changing sruthi around is needless.

But again, like I said, if you are solid in sruthi, then switching sruthi shouldn't really cause any lingering negative effects. This changing of sruthi need not be looked upon like sure-fire poison

- but it is indeed so, mainly because, compared to sticking to one sruthi, changing (or using two different at different times) adds the potential of risk. But, depending on the person that risk needn't become a reality.

Also note that many performers over the lifetime of their profession change sruthi - it comes down with age. But then this is gradual and so over a particular period of time (say a couple of years) they are in one sruthi.

Arun

martin · Post by **martin** » 26 Oct 2008, 00:59

arunk wrote:(...) But in western music (I think for the last 300-400 years?), they found a way the octave into 12 equal portions, and still be "close enough" to the natural scale. This allows them to do western orchestration very effectively (scale shifts etc,). This is called "equi-tempered" scale/tuning.

Equal Temperament (ET) has already been described in some old Chinese treatises predating the use of it by lute-players in the 16th and 17th century. From 1/4 comma meantone temperament for keyboard music in the 16th century, which has at least one 'wolf' and several harsh sounding remoter keys, evolved various temperaments which offered different solutions for spreading the 'wolf' so that more keys (in the sense of tonality) could be used. After 1750 such temperaments were circular mostly, resembling ET. However, only after 1900 ET became the ubiqitous standard tuning for keyboard instruments, particularly in the interbellum of WW 1 & 2. The unfathomable large numbers of piano's being produced since the times of Wagner and Schoenberg of course was a major influence so that even for musical theory the ET-tuned piano became almost a Law of Moses, or a paradigm and reference of intonation. This domination of a one-size-fits-all approach has been discarded only by nowadays esoteric contemporary composers or by so-called HIP musicians (Historicaly Informed Performance), who use old instruments or copies thereof and apply contemporary old playing techniques and tunings, and preferably, if possible, styles of interpretation of olden times. Otherwise, ET rules, and is even finding home in India in these times.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Oct 2008, 10:51

I have heard quite a few musicians (esp Hindustani) recommend that Sruthi should be assessed based on the shape of the voice on that particular day. At times when the singer goes off sruthi, raising the pitch by one step is said to solve the problem. Cold and other health problems also dictate a change in sruthi...

As for the difficulty in changing shruti, at least in my limited experience, all you need to do is listen to the drone for 10-15 seconds...but musicians are creatures of habit like the rest of us, so they just tend to stick to what they've been doing.

As for hitting madra Ga, it takes a good vocal range, no doubt, but is not impoassible. Several musicians - TNS, TMK to name a few manage to go down till mandra shadjam. I think it is as much a function of practise as the voice's natural bass quality. Hitting the mandra Sa is apparently one of the mandatory learning objectives in Kumar Gandgarva's school.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Oct 2008, 20:56

yes cold etc. can force one to shift sruthi - but this is mainly like one semitone lower/higher etc.

Every HM musician I have heard (but I havent heard that many) can pretty easily reach mandra shadjam - and they can deliver it fairly clearly (i.e. they arent "barely" reaching it).

I think in CM, this is not as common (KJY, TNS, TMK, BMK, MDR being the ones I can think off hand). But in CM, in krithis it is extremely rare for the tune to go below mandra ma, or go beyond tara pa (duDuku does go down all the way to mandra suddha rishabham - still it is more of an exception) . So for cm amateurs and semi-pros, this range (but one that is met without visible strains) should serve more than adequately. Even an alapana which stays within this range serves quite well and you would see this is the case for overwhelming % of the cm alapanas.

But in HM, I would think at the pro-level this range will not be sufficient (?) - the bar set particularly for mandra stayi requires reaching much below.

Arun

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 26 Oct 2008, 22:59

HM certainly emphasizes vocal technique a lot more than CM...I am not sure though that it is mandatory to have a deep bass - but yeah, most artistes do have a good range. Parween Sultana apparently has a range of 4.5 octaves! But it can get a little gimmicky, esp in tara sthayi

Personally I think what the voice can do within 2 octaves is more important that how long the range actually is...a good bass can lend weight and strength in tara thayi can add emotional impact but most of the action is really well within 2 octaves - even less in many cases...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Oct 2008, 05:07

Back to vivadhi swaras:

This may be bit of a controversial way of looking at things, but there are a few non vivadhi ragas which sort of use vivadhi'sh prayogas for bringing forth their unique color. The example I can think of is Thodi. When 'G2, R1, SA,' is used with the characteristic Thodi Ga gamakam, what actually gets played is close to "M1R2 M1R2 R1, SA,". Instrumentalists can readily relate to this. So R2 and R1 are sounded next to each other. But the oscillation between M1 and R2 sort of takes the focus away from the R2 and R1 sequence. On the whole, Todi personality blooms with such usages. Same thing with thodi N2 D1 PA which is played close to S D2 S D2 D1 P. Such usages are probably not unique to Thodi. Gamakas are used to take away any dissonant sound from vivadhi ragas as well. In ragas like thodi we approach it from the opposite direction with similar end effect. Just a thought.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 27 Oct 2008, 08:58

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, Your analysis is correct. Some dissonant effect arises while singing Sadharana-gandhara (G2) along with our manual Tambura as the Antara-gandhara (G3) is emanated as upper-partial irrespective of the South Indian Music or North Indian music. The same kind of dissonant effect emanates in respect of Suddha-madhyama (M1) and Kaishiki-nishdad (N2) also. To avoid this dissonant effect the Sampradaya-gamaka has been introduced into our music by some intelligent person. Even though we are not aware of this person who had introduced this Sampradaya-gamaka into our Karnataka-music we must appreciate him for his intelligence. But, in Hindusthani music, they still have to continue this discordant effect as they do not have this kind of Sampradaya-gamaka in their music. This is the greatness of our music. amsharma

balusatya · Post by **balusatya** » 27 Dec 2008, 15:38

SKA.S.Rajam has made a presentation today @IFAS.with his disciples.
The following were the kritis presented:-Vivadi Ragas.

*Guruguha swamini-Bhanumathi (4) Vanaspathi-MD-7th Vibhathi kriti-
presented by Kavya with swaram.
*Nasamani-(70)-Nasikabhushani-Sri Rama Saraswathy-rendered by Sankari Subramanyam.
*Thyagaraja had considered 18 vivadi ragas in his compositions.
*Ne more betti-(normally sung in Thodi )-Rupavathy-12.by Akshaya padmanabhan-with neraval&swaram-GREAT EFFORT.Again he did Evare Ramiah in Gangeyabhooshani-33.Thyagarajar vivadi kritis are starting with vivadi swara e.g.vagadhheswari,Gangeya bhushani.
*We were told that MD&KI had lot of similiarities in having composed in all 72,Compositions bearing Vaggeya mudra&Raga mudra and both attained siddhi on Deepawali day.
* Paramukamadeno-soolini-35 presented by Deepika Srinivasan.
*Pavani-41-Anjatha nenjame-KI-Sung by Arvind.

balusatya · Post by **balusatya** » 27 Dec 2008, 15:50

*Sataleni dinamu-Naga Nandini-30.Thyagaraja.
*The prog ended with VS ,anchor to the prog singing' Arul cheyyavendum' -72- Rasikapriya-her ringtone song-
* There was a streak of contentment in Sri.S.Rajam.when he expressed that the mission initiated by him will be fostered well by the posterity with the dedicated sishyas
smt.Jayalakshmi sekar played veena and mannarkoil----mridanmgam.
*I am happy to share about this educative prog with you all.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Dec 2008, 01:54

vainika wrote:
ragam-talam wrote:Some vivadi ragas do sound a bit 'dissonant'.
There must be a recommended technique for singing these types of ragas, so as to minimize the 'discordancy' effect?
A technique that Professor SR Janakiraman uses in ascent phrases of some vivAdi rAgas is to approach the second note in the pair by means of a downward glide (erakka jAru) from the next note in the rAga.

For example, in the rAgas that have S R1 G1 M1 -> he sings S R1 (M1) G1 M1 where G1 is a downward glide from M1.

Similarly, P D1 N1 S' may be rendered as P D1 (S') N1 S'

Given this, if a janya raga leaves out the lower note of the pair, would we still play it with a erakka jAru? It makes sense to keep it tha way, to distinguish such janya ragas from same-swarasthana janya ragas from non-vivadhi parent.

vijisubra · Post by **vijisubra** » 13 Jan 2009, 10:25

That is basically the difference in approach between Dikshitar and Kotiswara Iyer. It is not very difficult to go in krama, just needs more practice and concentration. One way of singing it can be to sing the non vivadi swara phrases-- eg-- in Kanakangi-- you can hover around the m p d region before diving to the g or showing the ni-- I think it has a very beautiful effect