My Spiritual Quest

[cmlover]

To stop any idle speculation I have decided to participate at the Forum sporadically sharing my experiences on
the quest of space - the inner space. Indeed the Microcosm is as profound as the Macrocosm which has been
explored and revealed by many seers in the past especially our vedic seers from time immemorial. Yet everyone
has to undertake this journey independently and must share the experience with his people. Indeed the Chandogya
upanishad suuccinctly states:
yo ha vA AyatanaM vEdAyatanaM ha svAnAM bhavati |
manO ha vA AyatanaM || (chand up. 5.1.5)
(He who knows the abode becomes the abode of his people.
The mind is indeed that abode.)

As I venture on this quest I wish to take the approach of our great Acharya Sankara that he has taken in analyzing the validity of the Upanishads through his bAShyas on them.

First is the discussion of the catuShTayam (four important components) viz., adhikari, abhidhEyam, sambandam and prayOjanam (competent student, the subject matter, the relation of the discussion to the subject matter, and the utility or purpose of this exercise).

The competent student is one who has fulfilled his worldly obligations or requitted his debts to his family, to his forefathers and to the society. The reason being one cannot embark on journey especially 'inner' while carrying these excess baggages,

Question: Does this mean that these speculations are irrelevant for those still immersed in samsara?
Answer: No! The discussion which is pure knowledge (vidya) is relevant for one and all. But the practice is limited by the state (Ashrama) at which a person is located at that particular time. When the time is ripe the personcan indeed pursue his journey since he already will have a road-map.

The subject matter is 'Self' realization which will be explained hereafter.

The relation is the relevance and the discussion of the pros and cons of the method proposed to attain the goal (the subject matter)

The purpose is the removal of misconceptions as well as mental tensions and worries to attain supreme bliss (Ananda).

Question: what is the relevance of this discussion to CM?
Answer: It is very much relevant since the discussion will focus on Nadopasana. There are obvious examples of Saints who attained salvation through Music; starting from Tamil quartet Appar/sambandar/Sudarar/Manickavacakar, Annamacharya, Purandara, Arunagirinathar etc., and close to our era the Trinity who laid the foundation of CM.
While CM has a strong entertainment value which is mundane, it has the potential to elevate and liberate the human soul from materialism to spiritualism. I shall share the results of my experiments as they progress. Feel free to ask questions but don't expect answers always since I am still at the early phase and partly since I am busy with my investigational activities with heavy demands on my time schedule. Thanks for your cooperation.

I shall provide an introductory lesson in a few days...

[smala]

Looking forward...

[VK RAMAN]

Yes, I too look forward

[cmlover]

Some preliminaries:

This is Vedanta 101 if you please, for those who need an introduction.
Most is self evident but worth repeating.
The ideas are codified by Sankara in his dasha shlOki
That was composed when Sankara as the disciple prostrated before
Guru GovindapAda. Again that was the final advice he gave to his
Disciples when he finally departed his earthly abode. This is indeed the essence of Sankara’s life message repeated again and again as for example in his Nirvana Shatkam in the prakaraNa grantas.There are several sources where the dasha shlOki is available.
With meaning. See http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Sankara%27s_Dasa_Sloki
To be brief let me just consider the first shloka
Na bhoomir na thoyam na thejo na vayu,
Na Kham nendriyam vaa na thesham samooha,
Anaikanthikathwath suspthyeka siddha,
Thadekovasishta Shiva kevaloham., 1
Meaning:
I am not earth, I am not water.
I am not light, I am not wind,
I am not ether, I am not sense organs,
Nor am I a combination of these,
Because they don’t always exist.
I am simply Shiva the self,
For this remains even in sleep,
After everything is taken out.

The keyword is ‘deep sleep’ which is common for all when we truly experience liberation. That is when one experiences total detachment from all worldly concerns and experiences ‘true bliss’. That is when the jIvAtama merges with the nirguNa Brahman. This union however does not last as we return to the mundane world to experience the pleasues and pains of samsara. This daily cycle is a miniature repeat of the different birth and death cycles the jivatma endures on the endless journey through samsara.. The alternative is the realization and merger with the saguNa Brahman during the jAgrata (awake) state which is characterized as jIvanmukti. We will explore the role of CM in bringing into fruition this conscious union of jIvAtama with paramAtma in our future deliberations…

[VK RAMAN]

"This daily cycle is a miniature repeat of the different birth and death cycles" - I believe this

[cmlover]

A small digression..
Let us assume that our present human existence is but one cycle of samsara. What we do and achieve in this cycle is carried forward (sancita karma) into our next. We don’t remember what is carried forward but the Atma (super intelligence) keeps a tab and settles the accounts. That of course is the central tenet of the Karma Theory of our Hindu system of philosophy. You can observe it by analogy of our existence in this cyber world. Let us take our avatar at this Forum for example:

Of our own Free Will we are ‘born’ into the Forum and undergo experiences some good some bad and some indifferent. The avatar per se is not aware of the prime mover but simply transmits the events and experiences faithfully to him/her. Over time the avatar acquires its own personality conditioned by the enviroment and stimuli that obtains in the Forum. The prime mover being anonymous has the option of detaching himself and letting the avatar perish! There is also the potential for indulging with impunity in vandalism which the anonymity confers using clever cyber tricks. Some avatars do go through repeated birth and death cycles due to ‘vAsanA’ (memory imprints) since they are immensely attached to the principle and ideology of this Forum. There is the ultimate promise of liberation through ‘gnaana’ (knowledge) of CM that will be passed on for the enlightenment of the prime mover.
Though the analogy is not perfect there are striking similarities to experiences the subject endures in the ‘real’ world.

[ragam-talam]

cml - I am reminded of the 'butterfly dream' in this context (ascribed to Chuang Tzu, the great Chinese philosopher):

"Once upon a time, I dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chuang. Soon I awoke, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man!"

[VK RAMAN]

This reminds me a story. Two budhists monks were getting ready to cross a river one furlong wide. One of the monks saw a middle aged blind lady crying and asking for help to cross the river as her blind son would be waiting at the other side of the river. One of the monks approached the lady and volunteered to carry her across the river. The other monk felt that being a monk, touching or carrying a woman is violation of monk code of conduct. Inspite of this, the noble monk carried the woman across the river and safely handed over the lady to her son. The Lady was profusely thankful to the noble monk.
The two monks kept walking for their ashram three more hours. The other monk again reminded the noble monk that what he did was wrong; for that the noble monk answered that as soon as he was done with the task he already forgot the event, but the other monk is still carrying her in his mind even after 3 hours of the event.

[cmlover]

Good story VKR!!

R-T
intersting quote..
There is a good reference to such events in Yoga VashisshTa where a person dreams he was a king and the king dreams he was an elephant etc finally in a dream he was a fly trampled by a cow and he wakes up successively from the different reveries. VashishTa asks the query which was real? But he never gives an answer!
Question is whether there can be a dream within a dream? This has not been shown conclusively since the EEG can only detect one's dream state. But there is the case of 'Waking dream state' called Lucid dream. Interesting article in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
Lots of philosophical work has been done in this area in the realm of our Hindu Philosophy. The fourth state of consciousness called 'TurIya' is such which is described by our Rishis is the state of samadhi/meditation. That is when one experiences 'pure' consciousness. I believe the same state prevails when we enjoy CM impersonally. Once SSI mentioned to me that when he is immersed in deep singing the music comes from within and he was not consciously aware of producing the music himself. 'ellAm bhagavaan cheyyaraar'. I believe when we Rasikas lose ourselves listening to good CM we are also in the 'turIya avastha'. Worth doing some serious research..

[ragam-talam]

cml, it's interesting you should mention CM helping us to get to the thuriya state...

You may recall we discussed related topics under the 'CM and enlightenment' thread (more than a year ago!): http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9343

Perhaps we can explore this further here, under Bhakti section, rather than in the General section, where the noise level is a bit too high!

Personally, this is an area close to my heart. So I am all ears to learn any pearls of wisdom from you. If we could get people like Shivadasan to contribute to this discussion, that would be great too.

[cmlover]

Excellent idea! It is an area that is of current interest to me and close to my heart too!
Let us keep the detractor's away too and only engage those with genuine interest!
I am an inveterate experimenter and would like to hear the personal experiences of others.
I am sure folks will oblige!

[VK RAMAN]

My spiritual quest:

http://picasaweb.google.com/vkraman44/A ... 5548767730

I am enthralled at this where a 2 year old is playing his dolki for the bhajan

[vs_manjunath]

CML- Very Interesting Topic. Relating CM experiences to Vedantha.

[cmlover]

VKR
Is that smart kid your grand son?
We shall also focus on the effect of bhajans in our discussions to whch you can
contribute a lot from your personal experience..

[Shivadasan]

“I believe when we Rasikas lose ourselves listening to good CM we are also in the 'turIya avastha'. Worth doing some serious research”. remarks cmlover

First ,a note about the Turiya state before commenting on this.

It is said that the mind resides at any time in any one of the three states, viz., Jagrut ( experiencing the world), Swapna ( dream), Shushupti ( deep sleep) . Jagrut is our usual state which we call conscious state. The next is “Swapna” or dream state. When we sleep we experience “dream world” which is equally solid experience as the waking world. Refer the butterfly story by ragam_talam. The third state is “Sushupti” . This is deep seep where there are no thoughts and no awareness of our own self. Only after waking up we remember how nice it was. These states are independent of the Satva, Rajas and Thamas qualities of the mind.

The sages say that there is another state which is beyond these (perhaps at a different plane) and which coexists with ( or underlying ) the three states mentioned. It has been classified just as the fourth state or “Turiya” so that everyone can understand it easily. It is not that one crosses the three states to reach the Turiya state. In a Turiya state, it is said that a person experiences all the three states as a ‘witness’ and not involved in, or carried away by the thoughts the formation of which goes on all the time. That is why such a person cannot be said to be in the waking or dream state. He is neither in the deep sleep state because he is awake and watches the body sleeping. May be that is the truth behind the statement that “a yogi never sleeps”.

People who are not aware of the nature of Turiya state sometime confuse it with the thoughtless state which is just one of the aspects of Turiya state. Thoughtless state also happens in deep sleep, unconscious state (physical), and ‘Mano laya’ state. Mano laya state is a state where our mind gets absorbed in some inner or outer experience and stays without thoughts. Sometimes japa or practice of meditation can lead to such a state. When a spiritual practitioner reaches this stage he thinks he has reached the Turiya state and continues to drown himself into that state. Bhagwan Sri Ramana says that mano laya is a hindrance to achievement of realization and therefore one should avoid it . We have heard about yogis who lived for hundreds of years immersed in this state. But the yogi’s latent tendencies ( vasanas) do not get destroyed by this practice. This is usually explained by a story. A yogi wanted water to drink and before it could arrive he went into Samadhi of this type. When he woke up after several years, the first thing he said was, “Where is the water ?”

When a devotee of his went into a trance a day before her death, Sri Ramana Maharishi told the others that he had asked her not to do this practice because she would be deprived of moksha or the ultimate release if she was not conscious at the time of death. When we see a yogi going into a trance we start believing that he has attained self realization. Often a self realized person has no need to go into a trance and would remain keenly aware of the world and doing selfless work, without any ego. That is why it is difficult to recognize a realized person when we meet one. To attain the Turiya state one has to have no thoughts about oneself or about things related to him. That is a state where the world is not seen as what we see, but as the play of the Universal Power.

Coming to the remark as quoted above, possibly our mind gets absorbed so much in the music that we remain thoughtless during the performance. It can be a sort of manolaya . The turiya state is only a step in the path to self realization. There are further refined states like Unmani etc in this path.

The Turiya state is reached only when the person experiences the real ‘I’ as different from the ego or the personality that he recognizes as himself. It is possible only by serious introspection along with a total disregard for worldly possession, name fame etc.

Music may be great help in this path but without selflessness and devotion going along with it, practicing or listening music may not lead further in spiritual path.

[VK RAMAN]

Living in music and becoming a music oneself needs selflessness and devotion

[ragam-talam]

Music may be great help in this path but without selflessness and devotion going along with it, practicing or listening music may not lead further in spiritual path.

Dear Shivadasan:

In the Bhagavad Gita, Shri Krishna tells us that there are four paths to attain enlightenment: bhakti-, jnana-, karma- & raja-yoga. My understanding is that any one path can lead to salvation.

If this is so, then what is the basis for your assertion above?

[cmlover]

Thanks Sivadasan for presenting Ramana's ideas and approach to 'mOkSha' (final liberation). His approach is partly in agreement with Patanjali and yet different. Let me explain briefly what I understand from Patanjali which is his Sutra (3.47)
grahaNa svarUpAsmitAnvayArthavattva samyamAd indriya jayaH |
(By samyama (restraint/right control) on power of perception (grahaNa) and the inherent nature (svarUpa) of existence correlating (anvaya) their purpose (arthavattva) with the ego-sense (asmita), victory (jayaH) over sense organs (indriya) is obtained.)
This is the process of wakeful-consciousness. (turIya avasta)

The ecstasy enjoyed during ‘pure’ CM music is when the ego or self-consciousness is totally subdued and the mundane concerns of ‘samsara’ totally dissolve and a total peace (samyama) is experienced. I am not referring to the ‘concert experience’ here, where one goes to be entertained – indriya sukham (satisfaction of the senses) –where the three guNas (but primarily tAmasic and rAjasic) dominate. At times we experience that ecstasy during soul-fulfilling bhajans where the music and the ambience help us lose our ego-self and merge with the collective ‘universal self’. I am sure every one of us have experienced it some time or other. The same is also experienced when we listen to vedic chanting which is just another form (nay the foundation) of CM.

In that context I fully agree with your quote

Music may be great help in this path but without selflessness and devotion going along with it, practicing or listening music may not lead further in spiritual path

[VK RAMAN]

Bhajans do creat an ambience to help lose our ego and merge with collerctive universal self. I know that when a pregnant woman attends bhajans from conception to delivery regularly expose the child to have sense of rythm and melody and when the child enjoys the music, we can see how they shake and nod their head, hands and legs.

[vs_manjunath]

Music may be great help in this path but without selflessness and devotion going along with it, practicing or listening music may not lead further in spiritual path.

Saint Thyagaraja's following compositions looks to be relevant here:
a) mOkshamu galadA( sAramathi)-

Is it possible for any but the realised souls to attain salvation ? Is it possible for one who is devoid of real devotion and knowledge of divine music, to attain salvation ?

The vital breath containing with fire within produces Pranava(Om) and the Seven notes.People do not generally know the secret of Lord Shiva deriving immeasurable pleasure from the music of Vina.

b) manasu svAdhInamaina(shankarabharanam)-
To the great ones who has control over his mind, where is the need for other mantras and tantras ? For one who realises that he is not the body, where is the need for making penance ? For one who has realised that everything is only yourself, where is the need for differentation of Asharamas? Will one , who considers the whole universe as mAya, be deluded by the charm of women ? To one who has been throughout life free from vicious sense enjoyements, what need is there to be worried with the cycle of birth and death ?

c) nAdopAsana-( Begada)
Sankara,Narayana,and Brahma have attained their distinctive glory through NadOpAsana and have become the upholder of Vedas, nay,even transcended the Vedas and filled the whole universe;They constitute the life of mantras,yantras and tantras;and they are free souls revelling in Swara, Raga and laya and live for countless ages.

[VK RAMAN]

Isavaasyam idam sarvam yat kim ca jagatyam jagat, tena tyaktena bhunjithah ma gridhah kasyasvid dhanam

Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong

[Shivadasan]

Dear ragam_talam,

I am unable to relate how Bhakti, Jnana, Karma and Rajayoga are related to the quoted statement about music sans devotion and selfless attitude (sacrifice) not helping in the spiritual path. Still I would try to clarify a little more so that the situation can be understood.

Let me make it clear that I am trying to help people understand the very complex matters regarding spiritual path through simple understandable language with the help of the knowledge gained by me by reading a lot about lives and teachings of the realized saints and jnanis and arriving at a common basis of their teachings. I do not argue and support any particular philosophy or spiritual path. If people are interested in getting a clear picture of the essence of spiritual practice I am ready to continue to clarify conflicting statements we come across in the spiritual texts. What I had explained about Turiya state is an example.

Many saints have said that the basics of all these paths are the same even though the external disciplines may appear to be different.. Take the life any great Jnani and we would find that he was a great bhakta , a great karma yogi , and master of mind control as in Raja Yoga. Great Bhaktas were jnanis because they realized that they were nothing and only the God they worshipped pervaded the entire universe. They were great karma Yogis because they did everything without any selfishness. They control their breath when they go into a trance. And so on. It is considered that the essence of every spiritual practice is to shed the ‘I and mine’ feeling and not show resistance against the events in life by taking them as prasad from their own God.

Salvation has many shades of meaning. Can I take it to mean “achieving a spiritual state where the circle of births and deaths is broken” ?

All the musicians we worship, like Meerabai, Swami Haridas, Baiju Bawra, Kabir, Surdas, Thyagabrhmam, Shyama Sastri, Muthusamy Dikshitar, Purandaradas, Narsi Mehtha , Thukaram, Prabhu Chaitanya were saints first and musicians later. Tansen, considered the greatest of musicians, did not achieve realization even though he had achieved phenomenal powers over mother Nature. Can any one help me to find out whether there was any great musician who was not in pursuit of God or spirituality and yet had achieved the state of self realization ?

Once a well known Veena player asked Sri Rmana Maharishi whether one can attain moksha by following the path of Saints like Thyagaraja and dedicating oneself to music. He made a short ,crisp reply. “ They did not get it by singing; but they sang what they got” -“Avargal paadi peravillai, petradhai padinargal”

Dear cmlover

Patanjali in verse 3.3 says, “ When in meditation, the true nature of the object shines forth, not distorted by the mind of the perceiver, that is Samadhi.”

“ When these three ( concentration, meditation and absorption) are brought to bear upon one subject it is called samyama” 3.4

He also says that through mastery of Samyama you obtain pragya. I remember to have read that Pragya in one of the stages on the path to realization called Kaivalya and not the final stage.

Verses 9 to 12 describe the Nirvikalpa Samadhi . In it one loses external consciousness. When Samadhi becomes Sahaja i.e.,one remains in that state even while being active in the world, it is called Kaivalya.

Throughout this chapter he explains how by doing samyama on different things you obtain different supernatural powers. But he also says in verse 38 that these are powers in the worldly state , and they are obstacles to Samadhi.

The verse quoted from Patanjali is in 3.48 in my book. It occurs in between a series of sutras which explain which powers are to be gained by doing samyama on which thing. In this sutra, the power obtained is over the indriyas or sense organs. I am unable to find any reference to mental state or Turiya. I do not know whether Patanjali mentions Turiya anywhere.

I very happy to learn that you have been able to obtain strong spiritual experiences while listening to music. A stage will come when a single phrase of music might move you so much that you get absorbed into yourself for a brief period. It appears that it is really a sign of progress in spiritual sadhana.

Music is a combination of beautiful notes. I think that CM does not have the exclusive right to take any one in the spiritual path. How each person is affected by a musical phrase would depend on his/her cultural background and exposure to different types of music. Once I found that the pipe organs in a church in France elevated me to great heights of ecstasy.

Shivadasan

[cmlover]

Shivadasan
I like your expounding Ramana's views on turIya avastha and the implications to Liberation. I have not heard him having a strong interest in CM. On the otherhand Paramaacharya had a strong knowledge and interest in CM and he used to give insightful comments. Swami Sivananda was more onto bhajans and simple tunes. Music played a vital role in most of our saints both naayanmaar and aazhvaars. I agree that the music is culture based. On the otherhand Hinduism has a strong affinity to music as kirtans or chants. For that matter one may be even moved on hearing Gregorian chants even if it is not understood.

Theoretically (based on QM) every body has its unique vibrational frequency. Once this frequency is invoked the body is in a charged vibrational state. It is a matter of personal discovery!

Patanjali does not discuss turIya explicitly. His sutras have been variously interpreted. Nor does he discuss any role for music relating to turIya avasta. However Kundalini yoga explicitly refers to typical sounds (ringing of bells etc.,) during kundalini arousal. Any ideas?

[Shivadasan]

Sound emanating from within us is one of the experiences that occur during spiritual evolution. It is known as the ‘Anahatha Nada’. Thyagaraja Swamy mentions about it. We need to cross Nada, Bindu and Kala to reach Sahasrara, the seat of the Amighty. It occurs to almost all persons (and persons musically inclined may hear more of it), irrespective of the path he might be following, may be Jnana, Karma, Bhakthi, Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga etc. at one stage or the other.

I do not know whether any one has explained why they are occurring. The sounds that will be heard, may not always be music, may be the sound of bells, anklet, conches, drums and sounds found in nature like that of waterfalls, blowing wind, ocean waves etc. Probably it will depend on the vasanas and the karmic dirt inside us. It may even be terrifying like thunder and lightning. People have also heard sounds which seemed to be totally out of this world. Some people who are carried away talk about it and those who knew that these did not have any intrinsic value in spiritual pursuit, just pass them over.

Kundalini arousal also takes place for every one. It is like thermometer which measures spiritual development or degradation. The Hatha Yoga and Kundalini Yoga base their teaching on entirely on it and the progress of Kundalini through the Chakras. For Sri Vidya exponents, the body itself is Sri Chakra and the avaranans are the various parts of the body corresponding to the places where the chakras are placed. Jnanis and Bhakthas do not bother to measure their achievements in this manner and that is why they never talk about it. When the Kundalini rises and crosses each chakra the person gets endowed with certain special talents or supernatural powers. Even though a great artist or poet may not be aware that his Kundalini shakthi had pierced a specific chakra and blessed him with Saraswathi Kataksha.

[cmlover]

Dear Sivadasan:
As you point out the Kundalini experience is not unique after all. But the level of ascendance varies among individuals. Musicians are unique in the sense that they already have a pathway laid out but most falloff on the way due to material attractions. On the other hand Rasikas have the advantage of climbing the ladder without getting beguiled. Good CM can transport a Rasika to a trance state (turIya?) whereas the singer himself/herself may not have experienced it while singing!

[Shivadasan]

Dear cmlover,

You are right
Shivadasan

[ragam-talam]

What is enlightenment? Can this be explained clearly, without any technical jargon?

[cmlover]

In short enlighttenment is 'atma jnaanam' which is the realization that one is not the body i.e., the physical self. On the other hand it is used as a catch-all phrase by different religious disciplines. See for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(spiritual)
In Hinduism it is essentially the realization of the distinction between the ephemeral material self from the Eternal Spiritual Self. That will solve most of the problems we humans face in everyday life. Pithily Bhagavaan says in the Gita
karmaNyEva adhikaarastE mA phlEShu kadAcanaH (do your duty and don't expect the rewards (be they good or bad)). That is easier said than done! Now enlightenment also means knowing one's duties. That however is a different story...

[ragam-talam]

In short enlighttenment is 'atma jnaanam' which is the realization that one is not the body i.e., the physical self.

I have heard this description before, but haven't quite understood what it really means. I mean, if right at this moment I 'realise' (e.g. have this clear thought in my mind and really believe it to be true) that I am not my body, does that mean I am enlightened?

Also, why is this so important? By this what I am asking is: what difference does it make? We are all going to die one day, so why does it matter whether or not we realise we are not the body?

[cmlover]

Good question!
The realization is easy. But it has to be a 'true' realization. If there is True realization then there will be no selfishness, greed, jealousy, lust, anger etc., All these attributes are for the preservation and aggrandizement of the physical body. The realized 'Yogi' will act with detachment and act only in the interest of universal good. Thus there is an equanimity which the Lord designates as:
sukha duHkE same kritvA, lAbhAlAbhau jayajayau
( equate pleasure and pain as do gain or loss, victory or defeat)
samatvam yOga ucyatE (this equanimity is yOga).
It is extremely difficult to carry this out in domestic life with all the concurrent responsibilities and attachment to one's family and friends and hence one seeks renouncement through sanyasa. That is an evolutionary process as Hiduism recommends the Ashrama dharma (brahmacAri/grihasta/vanaprasta/sanyasa). Thus progressively one evolves towards spiritual realization or 'true' enlightenment.
The 'enlightened' attain Liberation or MokSha. Those who fail are recycled into samsara for myriads of cycles till the dawn of wisdom!
That anwers your question of everybody dying ultimately and the final fate of the enlightened vs the non-enlightened!

[arasi]

Even ordinary mortals have their moments of epiphany. How can one describe or explain them?
There are unexplainable phenomena all around us (auras?) which are for our capturing. It's just that we pay scant attention to them. Godliness is all around us, just as the opposite influences are there too, but often we miss the chance to make those blissful moments our own. Material and familial matters seem to win eventually. Let's take an extreme example for the sake of illustration--mob behavior. Even an idle bystander, in the flush of excitement, gets carried away and cheers and sometimes even joins someone who torches the property of innocents just because they happen to be in the neighborhood of that someone who is the cause for their anger.
'maitrim bhajata' (does not make a difference as to who wrote it!) can also be catching (thank goodness!) and can inspire a whole lot of people if the time is right, a ripe time for inspiration. That was how the Mahatma came about.
Of course, this cannot happen unless there is Atma vicAram on the part of individuals (fire without flintstone?)--that you light your own fire within to see in the dark, the darkness of what lies around and ahead of us in the external world too.It all seems so simple and yet how complicated the world is and our lives are in it! Yet, it is foolish to dump everything together and call them 'the ills of the modern world, 'this hopelessly materialistic world' and so on. No one can stop us from being ourselves--at least in our inner being. We have the freedom to think and may be find some answers too--at least find questions to ask, as we are doing now

[cmlover]

Excellent analysis Arasi!
But the important point is how to get there. Our Saints have suggested different routes - Bhakti marga/Gnaana marga/Karma marga/even do nothing marga/...and many more. At present I am exploring/experimenting CM marga as discovered by our ancients. There is indeed the divine moments in CM which we objectively fail to realize and capitalize. My purpose here is to explore that path by sharing and pooling the collective experience from all of us!

[Pratyaksham Bala]

arasi:
Brilliant!

[ragam-talam]

cml, I have a few questions related to your characterisation of what enlightenment is.
1. You have stated that the realisation that one is not one's body will lead to selflessness, lack of greed etc. But if a person realises that he is not his body, surely he will also realise that the same applies to others too? i.e. other people are also not their bodies. Then why should he try to preserve others' bodies either?
In fact, doesn't Krishna say something close when he provides a rationale to Arjuna as to why it's ok to go ahead and finish off the Kauravas? i.e. that he is only destroying their bodies.

2. You state:
>>The 'enlightened' attain Liberation or MokSha. Those who fail are recycled into samsara for myriads of cycles till the dawn of wisdom!<<

I have heard this assertion before. However, I don't quite understand it for a couple of reasons:
a) Why should moksha lead to a person's not being born again? If the enlightened one has acquired the I-am-not-my-body realisation that leads to detachment - hence the cessation of suffering - why would samsara be a problem any more for that soul?
b) Also, surely the world needs more enlightened people? Then how come the enlightened ones disappear, while the unenlightened ones keep coming back? Isn't it better to remove the unenlightened souls out of the samsara cycle, so that the world becomes a better place?

3. Finally, we are told that certain enlightened people are re-born, e.g. Narada comes back as Tyagaraja, etc. How come? Does this mean that even if an enlightened soul attains moksha and leaves the reincarnation route, they may still be born again? If yes, what prompts this? Also, if this is the case, then are we saying there's really no guarantee that we can escape reincarnation even if we get enlightened?

[cmlover]

Good questions again R-T:
I am just an intiate in Vedanta and at the same time a Rationalist. Hence my answers will be a mixed bag. I am tied up today and give me a day or two; I will answer your queries. No harm in other interested trying too! Though truth is one it still has many facets.
"Ekam sat viprA bahunA vadanti"

[VK RAMAN]

My take on spiritual quest - selfless giving material and or spiritual, selfless helping, nurturing, supporting of all living beings including plants and trees, humble living and humility will all help in enlightenment. Do not go in search of enlightenment but live in enlightenment.

[arasi]

Very interesting questions, r-t!
My simplistic mind (without leaning on any great works to quote from) comes up with these thoughts. Yes, this body is of no consequence, but it's our abode, at least for a fleeting time. Don't we take care of our homes that we live in? Respect even a friend's house when we visit him? In that sense, our physical state of dwelling in a body and the life which surrounds it is important too to nurture (true, not in the 'me', 'mine' sense!). Deference to all that surrounds us is the ideal.
Yes, I have the same problem in accepting that we are recycled if our goodness level is not up to par, and as you ask, why is it that great souls come back too, let alone god's own avatArs. If there are new births, new worlds, then I'm sure the Almighty, with his sense of balance, lets loose some divine souls too in the mixture

[cmlover]

1. You have stated that the realisation that one is not one's body will lead to selflessness, lack of greed etc. But if a person realises that he is not his body, surely he will also realise that the same applies to others too? i.e. other people are also not their bodies. Then why should he try to preserve others' bodies either?
In fact, doesn't Krishna say something close when he provides a rationale to Arjuna as to why it's ok to go ahead and finish off the Kauravas? i.e. that he is only destroying their bodies.

That is precisely the point. The Self that is common in all is indestructible, though the body which differs is ephemeral any way. Hence Arjjuna should not feel sorry for destroying the Kauravas and he should do it since it is his duty as a Kshatriya . Note that Self realization does not absolve one from not doing his duties. Only a sanyasin is permitted to renounce all Karmas since he is a realized person. That is the gnaana marga. Arjuna was not eligible for that approach. This is elaborately discussed in Chap 3 of Gita.

2. You state:
>>The 'enlightened' attain Liberation or MokSha. Those who fail are recycled into samsara for myriads of cycles till the dawn of wisdom!<<

I have heard this assertion before. However, I don't quite understand it for a couple of reasons:
a) Why should moksha lead to a person's not being born again? If the enlightened one has acquired the I-am-not-my-body realisation that leads to detachment - hence the cessation of suffering - why would samsara be a problem any more for that soul?

mokSha ipse facto means Liberation or no more birth-death cycle (samsara). The Self –realized ones continue to live to workout their prArabda karma which has to be exhausted before the final liberation. They do not accumulate because of their knowledge (gnaana) any more Karma debt to be entrapped in samsara any further. For the rest of their life they should do (not abandon) their duty (as apportioned in the Vedas) but without attachment.. The lives of Janak, Suka, Ramana etc., are the examples

b) Also, surely the world needs more enlightened people? Then how come the enlightened ones disappear, while the unenlightened ones keep coming back? Isn't it better to remove the unenlightened souls out of the samsara cycle, so that the world becomes a better place?

The enlightened ones do not disappear. They are liberated from the web of maya and become part of the universal Self . The unenlightened ones continue to work out their Karma cumulating ‘karma debt’ and go through the endless cycle of samsara until enlightenment dawns.
Consider for example that one gets to know by some magic the events in his previous births. Will he worry or take pleasure in those past events? Will they matter to him? Even in the present life do folks worry about events that take place in dreams. The same sort of unconcern and detachment should be exercised to the ‘real’ events in current life as well. That is enlightenment

3. Finally, we are told that certain enlightened people are re-born, e.g. Narada comes back as Tyagaraja, etc. How come? Does this mean that even if an enlightened soul attains moksha and leaves the reincarnation route, they may still be born again? If yes, what prompts this? Also, if this is the case, then are we saying there's really no guarantee that we can escape reincarnation even if we get enlightened?

Enlightenment is the birth right of every soul. There is however no single path. The Lord out of infinite mercy has taken many avatara to show different ways and means. The saints are indeed the manifestation of the divine Self to show the path to the deluded humanity. Though the avataras take place only at particular time and place the saints are born all the time. Even now they may be living among us but they do not proclaim their presence. We get to know them from their actions and messages. Thyagaraja and a host of allied saints taught us the path of ‘nada yoga’ or the musical way of attaining Liberation. Again their music was not for mere entertainment. We are the losers if we do not read their messages right!

[vasanthakokilam]

>and as you ask, why is it that great souls come back too

I also had this problem with the general model of reincarnation. One way to resolve this is with an extra stipulation. The soul which goes out with a positive karma needs to prove itself one more time. In the karma balance sheet, it is not good enough to go from negative to positive but also come in with a positive and go out with a positive. The initial value of the karma balance at the beginning of the cycle is zero.

This is just my own "fix" to the model, probably not sanctioned by vedas or any other scriptures.

[vasanthakokilam]

I have been meaning to talk about one very specific and narrow item of Advaita. My knowledge comes from 'Deivatthin Kural'.
I recently read an on line English translation of "Vol. 5, section titled 'Advaitam uLLiTTa mathangkaLin sArAmsam', pp.1067-73"
Let me use something from that translation to ask this question about self-reference which all philosophies struggle with.

I am not quite convinced that Advaita explanations adequately solved it, though I go back and forth on it.. ( These are all intellectual pursuits and not spiritual pursuits ).

Consider this:

- "The nirguNa Brahman itself becomes saguNa Brahman, joining with mAyA, and shows itself as the jagat". OK, got it.
- "This jagat is only the superimposition of mAyA on Brahman." OK, got it.
- "There is no creation, there is no evolution.".. Very interesting.
- "The snake was not created from the rope, right? Nor did the rope actually evolve into a snake, right? In the same way is jagat, remaining only as an appearance, without being a creation or evolution. If a lamp is brought, the darkness goes and the confusion of the rope appearing as snake disappears;".. Understood at the analogy level.
- "In the same way, in jnAna prakAsham--shine of knowledge, the darkness of mAyA would go, and what appeared before as jagat would start appearing as Brahman."

The last statement is where I have this self-referential problem. "it would start appearing as Brahman to whom?" In the case of snake and rope and the light, there is an observer who corrects his perception. That rope-snake analogy does not carry because when mAyA goes away there is nothing but nirguna brahman. There is no observer-observed difference. So 'nothing should start appearing as Brahman to anyone' because there is no one else for it to appear to. It should just Be. This is a direct result of the first statement.

This is not just a problem of the metaphor but that basic self-referential issue in the internal consistency of the philosophy itself. If we strictly go by the first statement, removal of mAyA, however it is achieved, should result in nirguNa brahman.

[vasanthakokilam]

As a secondary matter, leaving aside the self-referential issue I mention above:

What works for me a bit better as a metaphor is this.We know in the past 100 years that in the material world, what we observe is not reality. The same phenomenon can reveal itself as two different things depending on the method of observation. So observed reality is not same as knowing what it really is. To really know what reality actually IS, the observer and observed should be considered as a whole. Is this the way to start thinking to understand Shankara's teachings?

Just to be sure, two points worth noting: This is also a metaphorical tool in the sense of the Rope-Snake thing. Second, it does not fully address the 'Nirguna' aspect. ( but neither does the Rope-Snake analogy ). In this metaphor, that unified observed-observed system is all mathematical equations. Once we get past that, we can treat them as nirguNa since it is formless in the material sense, it is not made of stuff. It is just pure knowledge.

But what is fascinating there is, we can consider the observed reality as mAyA since it reveals itself only when you step away from the unified observer-observed system. In addition, that nirguNa mathematical equation can tell you what that mAyA is going to be ahead of time. You then observe and it turns out to be what the nirguNa told you. So in this metaphor, the observer-observed unified reality, though you do not have sensory access to it, can tell you all about this mAyA domain which we have access to.

But that success is what brings it down as a metaphor for Advaita. The reason being, we get to use the nirguNa math equations in plain view while still being bound by mAyA But at least it seems to me to be a little better metaphor to use.

OK, enough with metaphors, back to my self-reference problem with the philosophy itself.

[Shivadasan]

I regret very much that I could not participate in the discussion since I was on tour. A lot of interesting questions have been raised and I would try my best to answer them to lead us to a greater understanding of the greatest mystery of the world.

ragam-talam asked , “What is enlightenment? Can this be explained clearly, without any technical jargon?”

I would place before you what I understand by Enlightenment. Enlightenment means “enabling us to see the light”. This leads us to the questions, “Which light do the sages and scriptures indicate ?” and “The light is needed by us to clear which darkness ?”

There is a divine force within our body which enables us to experience the world through the sense organs and enables us to think. It also runs the factory called the body. We see the world only with its help and so people called it the ‘light’ through which the world is seen. There is provision within us to have a direct experience of this light . It is said that when we experience (see) it, it appears as the brightest light without any heat and it also gives us the greatest bliss. As against the untainted bliss experienced by us in this manner, the experience of the world is loaded with misery, anxiety and sorrow. The experience of the world through the senses obstructs a vision of this inner light and therefore it is called the darkness. Bliss is the light that dispels the darkness.


There is another question -- why is this so important? By this what I am asking is: what difference does it make?

Let me explain what the saints & sages say about it.

All of us want to remain happy always, without a trace of unhappiness. The truth is that our true inner state is bliss, unadulterated happiness; but our mind gets active and adulterates the inner bliss and so we do not experience bliss directly but through the sense objects, and we call it happiness. The adulterated Ananda we experience is called ‘Vishayananda’ and the inner bliss is called the ‘Paramananda’. The sages say that certain times, when we experience worldly things we get a touch of the bliss inside and we term it happiness and attribute the happiness to the object we experienced. If it was true that objects give us happiness then every time we experience a particular object, we should get the same amount of happiness that we experienced the first time. But we know that this never happens.


Every decision we make is taken to promote our own happiness and avoid unhappiness. No one knows what is happiness but everyone goes on searching for happiness. Some persons search it in wealth, some in knowledge, some in power, some in name & fame and so on. They struggle while trying to attain it and when they finally attain it the happiness is short lived, momentary. Then they choose another goal to attain. At the end of their lives they wonder whether it was all worth so much struggle and unhappiness. Shakespeare’s Macbeth is a fine example.


When we are exposed to the raw forces of the world, viz., hate, betrayal, deceit, torture, injustice, and similar ones we wish for a sanctuary to be away from them. When we are battered and bruised by these forces we start searching whether there are any avenues to run away from this world. Our minds become tense, worried and anxiety ridden.
The sages assure us that there is a way to avoid all these troubles and live a clam life with absolute mental calmness. They say that once a person attains enlightenment all these troubles vanish. For the question “We are all going to die one day, so why does it matter whether or not we realise we are not the body?”, the answer could be that we are enabled to spend the entire life in total happiness and not be drowned in the worries of the world which are so powerful as to drive many to suicide.

ragam talam asked 3 more questions

1. You have stated that the realisation that one is not one's body will lead to selflessness, lack of greed etc. But if a person realises that he is not his body, surely he will also realise that the same applies to others too? i.e. other people are also not their bodies. Then why should he try to preserve others' bodies either?

Once a person is enlightened he realizes that all the world and its anxieties are the play of the mind. For him there are no other bodies. He sees everything as a part of the Divine force. Just as we do not bother about the victims of a shooting incident we saw in a dream after we wake up, the realized person considers all the world is unreal and sees the whole world as a dream. His body sensations does not have any effect on him. He is never born again unless it is assigned by the Almighty. If he is born again he would be a selfless person working for the welfare of the world. The great saints are of that type.

Enlightenment is a personal process. It is a process of understanding the real ‘I’ as against the false ‘I’ we recognize as the body and its personality. Once a person understands that he is the inner consciousness and not what he had always been thinking as so and so, he is never affected by the happenings in the world because he goes beyond the sensations and thoughts through which this world is seen. He will have no desire, no wants. He will watch the activities of the body as that of some one else’s and so will be beyond greed etc. He would, at all the time, be absorbed in the bliss of self awareness. In that state he would be omnipotent and omniscient and see the whole world and the play of the Divine.

When a person is not enlightened, he will have to undergo the pangs of death and then be reborn to suffer/enjoy whatever karma he had accumulated in his last birth, resulting in anxiety worry etc.

The second question
a) Why should moksha lead to a person's not being born again? If the enlightened one has acquired the I-am-not-my-body realisation that leads to detachment - hence the cessation of suffering - why would samsara be a problem any more for that soul?
b) Also, surely the world needs more enlightened people? Then how come the enlightened ones disappear, while the unenlightened ones keep coming back? Isn't it better to remove the unenlightened souls out of the samsara cycle, so that the world becomes a better place?

Moksha leads us to the true knowledge that what all we see is a dream and is not as permanent as we think it to be. For a realized person the world that is seen through the body has no significance because he knows that the worldly experiences are mere myth and does not affect him. We feel helpless and powerless to change the progress of events in this world but he knows he has the power to change events in the world but would do so only when the Almighty asks him to do so. The needs of the world is known to the Almighty and It sends down enlightened people when the good people suffer and search for a way out.

The samsara cycle is meant for clearing the effects of the karma accumulated over so many prior births. So the unenlightened have to be born again to clear his karma, whereas the enlightened, whose karmas are burnt after enlightenment, need not be born again.

The third question
Finally, we are told that certain enlightened people are re-born, e.g. Narada comes back as Tyagaraja, etc. How come? Does this mean that even if an enlightened soul attains moksha and leaves the reincarnation route, they may still be born again? If yes, what prompts this? Also, if this is the case, then are we saying there's really no guarantee that we can escape reincarnation even if we get enlightened?

The answer for this question has already been included in earlier answers.

As to the question who experiences the Brahman, the realised person becomes the Brahman and is aware of himself. There is nothing else present at that stage.

[cmlover]

R-T
you may be interested in looking at my musical work
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... &start=700

[ragam-talam]

cml - yes, I can now recall your poems! The link also brings back great memories of our ongoing verbal duel last year! I am so happy I had a small part in encouraging you to pen those words...

shivadasan - Thanks for your post. Shall respond soon.

[cmlover]

VK
I enjoy the QM twist to 'self-realization' as well as the observer-observed paradox. It will be an anachronism to expect Sankara to consider those aspects though he is quite capable of resolving them! Let us hear from our physicista especially VKV who are veterans in the QM area.
I suspect that our discussion inevitably may gravitate to Godel who may have the final say

[vasanthakokilam]

CML, yes, however interesting QM stuff is, it is still a metaphor for the reasons I mentioned.

I am still struggling with the self-reference problem in my post #40

[srkris]

VK, your self-reference problem described in post #40 is not a problem at all, it can only be a problem if there is a fundamental misunderstanding about the philosophy. Brahman does not appear to anyone - who or what is Brahman in the first place and how can Brahman be perceived at all? Brahman is not The God, not a God, and not even a person (neither sentient nor an individual, both of which are necessary to call something a person). Brahman is not even something, everything or anything since all these words imply some sort of identity. Brahman has no perception. Brahman cannot be identified or described positively since there is no identity. Since there is no identity there is no number. Brahman is not "one" (unity) in the same way as Brahman is not many (multiplicity). Non-duality does not ipso-facto connote unity. Brahman is not "the all" but also not "none" and cannot be mathematically defined or expressed. Brahman is not existent, and is therefore also not non-existent, for one that exists can only not exist, and one that doesn't exist can come into existence, existence and non-existence being facets of relativity/duality. Brahman, being non-dual, cannot come into existence nor fade into non-existence. There is no self-reference since the self does not have an identity. We call the self "Brahman" only to express it in human language, else such names/labels as "self" or "brahman" are irrelevant and misleading as well since they seek to ascribe an identity to the non-identifiable.

[arasi]

srkris,
That's something! I mean, nothing

[srkris]

Yes Arasi, thats why people assume it's anything they want, when actually it's nothing that they presume it to be.

All claims to cognition of Brahman is void ab-initio since they are illogical and based on a fundamental misunderstanding / ignorance (of non-duality).

I hope I have conveyed the concept of nirguna nirvisesha nirakara brahman (note the negatives - the "neti-neti" of it all). In his Mandukya karikas, Gaudapada says as much while explaining the ajata (non-origination) philosophy.

Of course, this "dry-logic" philosophy might be highly unpalatable to the theosophical lobby since it robs all the romantic/mythological/faith-oriented aspects of the supreme god whom they also call "Brahman" and assume both to be one and the same. This is precisely the superimposition of ignorance on truth that the "snake and the rope" analogy seeks to illustrate. God is a subject of perception and imagination, while Brahman is not a subject at all in the first place, much less of perception or imagination. Assuming the self to be a God, or as parts of a god, people pray to it with selfish motives (to reach its feet, to get its blessings, to delight in its presence, to feel its bliss, to win this or that, to lead a happy life, to not be reborn etc etc). Knowing that the self is not anything that can be prayed to or adored, makes the knower unselfish.

[cmlover]

srkris
Is there any reference or discussion of these concepts in any other philosophy other than in Hindu Philosophy?