Why do CM musicians struggle with Sruti alignment?

[Rsachi]

I heard today a good veena concert on SRSN. There was no lack of vidwat on display. The accompaniment by Embar Kannan, Tiruvarur Bhaktavatsalam and Ghatam Suresh left nothing wanting.
But throughout I found the veena to have lapses in sruti. It was not lack of perfection in presenting ragas and swaras. But basic sruti of Sa Pa and different strings had slight misalignments.
Embar does not have this problem. But the overall effect was pronounced.
It goes without saying that almost all the top vocalists of CM today, male and female, have sruti lapses especially in the higher notes.
Instruments (especially violin) also have many lapses (violin during accompaniment maybe due to the vocalist's lapses).

Veena has the added problem of fret placement accuracy and the pitch difference between open string and Sa Ma fret alignment.

I am wondering if I have some hearing problem or a prejudice or indeed CM has this as a gene defect. Is it the lack of rigorous practice? Is it the race after kritis and speed? Is it a bit like Indian English where many things like definite articles and the appropriate placement of verb and subject and object are observed more in the breach?

Did musicians and composers even in the times of Trinity suffer from this problem? Is it today a suboptimal combination of sounds like voice, Radel, violin, mridangam, with the addition of the mike menace etc., adding to the befuddlement of tonal purity? Does the CM musician or the rasika really care?

Too many questions. Sorry. Just blame it on the Election year. One tends to wander into unwanted territories of thought in such times perhaps.

PS: we are more forgiving of sruti lapses or errors as a live audience. Recordings throw up more lapses more easily. Why?

[cacm]

It is far simpler. MS practised till she reached almost 80 Akarashdham for close to 4-6 hours a day. MMI did the same thing. RESULTS ARE OBVIOUS. As long as rasikas look the other way or do not care for attempts at perfection this LACK OF DISCIPLINE will be the NORM and hiding under the GENERIC IMAGINATION CREATIVITY will prevail. As long as difference between FUNDAMENTALS of what MUSIC & what is actually delivered is neglected this will be the RESULT. The great critic B.V.K.Sastry has pointed out how JUST CONCENTRATING on Sruthi, swara, sarvalaghu SUDDHAm catulputed MMI to the TOP. Now ready for the brickbats....VKV :-ss

[Rsachi]

Sir,
Practice! That's it.
Recently Zubin Mehta was honoured as one of the NDTV 25 Global Indians. Each awardee had to make a 2 minute speech and tell three things he has learnt from life to pass on to youth.
Zubin said, "I have only one thing. And that is a story:
There was a young boy crossing the street in New York, clutching a violin case under his arm. He stopped and asked a policeman: "Sir, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?" The policeman replied, smiling, "young man, practise. Practise!"

[cacm]

GOOD ONE BUT VERY TRUE IN ADDITION TO EXTRA- ORDINARY GIFTS& TALENTS! VKV

[Ranganayaki]

Rsachi, your post strikes a chord in me. I have no answer, but I do commiserate with you. It is a mix of resignation, annoyance. I always feel we are constantly called upon to apply our Neera Ksheera Viveka and in that we never fail our artists!! My son asked me why I go to the concerts even though it sounds so bad (he was asking about the audio) and I told him that if I didn't then it would be my loss.

[rajeshnat]

I always feel we are constantly called upon to apply our Neera Ksheera Viveka and in that we never fail our artists!!

Can you explain what you meant by Neera Ksheera Viveka

[vgovindan]

nIra kshIra vivEka - discrimination or separation of water from milk - the legendary swan is stated to have the ability to separate water from milk. What we in English call 'separating chaff from grain'. Sorry for intruding.

http://www.dollsofindia.com/library/hindu_vahanas/

[varsha]

https://archive.org/details/Tsk-Harmonium

May be replacing the violin with a harmonium will help.
Hope the sociological reasearch team does not get to read this post :-!

[eesha]

Instruments (especially violin) also have many lapses (violin during accompaniment maybe due to the vocalist's lapses).

We can not generalise. How many times we have heard sruti lapses when someone from Parur style plays ?? Or when Ganesh & Kumaresh play ??

Parur style is "apaswaram proof" by desgin. While some from other schools may be criticizing Parur style that they mix Hindustani into Carnatic music, those who criticize can not play with sruti suddham as parur school can play. Their Hindustani "influence" is a positive influence as we don't hear sruti lapses in Hindustani. All this is because of the practice that they put in.

[Rsachi]

Eesha your point reinforces the issue. Majority of violinists do not have the Parur perfection.

[msakella]

While Carnatic music is with Shruti Hindusthani music is in Shruti. We can’t help. amsharma

[VK RAMAN]

"While Carnatic music is with Shruti Hindusthani music is in Shruti." - So true. One of the bengali senior bengali lady is learning CM and bhajan and one has to listen to the sruti suddham in her rendition. It is a must for bengali's to learn and play harmonium while singing Rabindra Sangeet.

[tkb]

It is rightly mentioned that practice make one a perfect performer! This topic which actually is drifting towards pointing the enhancement artists role! Sri msakella you hit the nail on the head!

[SrinathK]

All systems of music have special training exclusively for pitch perfection and tone production -- except most of Carnatic music teaching. Shruti shuddham practice is a lifelong job (Yes, for those who think it is as simple as an UKG math problem, I'm sorry, but you have to sing Sa Pa SA correctly for much more than just 6 months B-)). Otherwise your technique will decline. And when it comes to a complete technical analysis on all parameters, MS amma is the gold standard in vocal.

Instrumentalists generally have better sruti shuddam than vocalists (again veena and nadaswaram are prone to pitch lapses). However in some cases the AC of the hall can be bad enough to freeze one's fingers (and even the oil), which makes the fingerboard of the violin feel like it has a layer of glue on it.

There is also the curious case of the mics. I only sang once or twice at temples with them, but it suddenly feels like that the sound of your own voice / instrument that's supposed to reach your ear before anyone else's ears is completely gone -- it felt like singing deaf -- with predictable results. There's a dead zone right before the mic. I am able to hear myself better murmuring in my house and I then understood the reasons for frequent complaints of monitor speakers and feedback in concerts (despite artistes sitting right next to one another)

[KNV1955]

I wrote a blog on this topic in Sruti a year back. The Sruti sense is something comes by pointing out the lapses in formative stage. Lot of people don't realise that they are singing off key. I have seen this with my father's students. When I tell some of my friends he (or) she does not have sruti perfection they just don't accept. This is something I learnt from my father. Tuning tambura perfectly is an art. I can bet a number of musicians cannot tune properly.Your ear should get tuned to sruti perfection. My father would point out even in film background music. He will say "Enna Abasawaram". These days everything is recorded in separate track. How difficult it must have been for Suseela or Lata to sing with abaswara violins/flute/shenoy etc. Some stray away from sruti due to lack of breath control. Therefore it is just not training in Sa Pa Sa. Sruti perfection/ Sthana(placement of a particular swaram) perfection/ breath control/ lot of akaram singing (which means singing with open mouth); not using false voice/Not using nasal sound, learning to use the lung power (nabi) & not the throat (kural as they say in tamiz) etc all must be emphasised. A sruti soaked voice is a sheer delight. But it is difficult to find in CM.

[arunk]

A related point:

There have been cases where a concert of a (now) super-senior musician is attended to and reported back as "soulful, complete, pure" music i.e. represents "the best of cm today".

However, in many such cases, such a musician's performing capabilities may not be as good as it was in their prime. I mean that if scrutinized coldly, one may find that sruthi-suddham and related departments (vocal range, fidelity) to be not perfect. However I do believe that such people who found such a music as "soulful, complete, pure" and in their minds do represents the best of cm.

But is this a contradiction? Is this a just a product of permanent bias/colored-perception? Is also part of the leeway/tolerance that cm audience gives which also plays a factor leading the OP to ask this question?

Arun

[cacm]

Dear A,
I am writing ONLY about persons who maintained the Sruti, Swarastana Suddham as well as Sarvalaghu Suddham THROUGH OUT THEIR CAREERS. I find M.S. & MMI are the only TWO who appear to have done it.
In the case of MMI I started out actually analysing how his rendering varied over the years. CHOSE Chakkaniraja as I happen to have his FIRST EVER RECORDING in late 30's of early 40's with Tanjore Vaidyanatha Iyer & T K Jayarama Iyer as accompanists as well as his LAST concert with Mayavaram Govindaraja Pillai & Vellore Ramabhadran as accompanists.
I happen to have good recordings of both & I did a spectra as well as Power Spectrum Analysis as well as listening thru' a fairly sophisticated audio system-High end ONKYO & ALTEC LANSING VOICE OF THE THEATER-STILL USED IN MANY RECORDING STUDIOS FOR CLASSICAL WESTERN MUSIC LIKE COULMBIA, DUETSCH GRAMOPHONE ETC and my music room has accoustic tiles +other aids etc. I had heard BOTH ARTISTS LIVE WITHOUT ANY MICS OR AMPLIFICATION ETC MANY TIMES IN PERSON. MY CONCLUSIONS:
BOTH M.S. & MMI WERE VERY CONSISTENT WITH MY MEMORIES AS WELL AS THE DATA I GOT OUT OF THESE TESTS. THEY REMAINED PERFECT IN THESE ASPECTS.
On the other hand G.N.B. is very TRICKY as his sruti used to vary almost from concert to concert in the FIFTIES when I regularly heard him. Actually I spent 10 years playing his music to persons who had ACTUALLY attended the concerts (including myself) before deciding which was the sruti in which he sang a particular song. STILL NOT SURE!
In conclusion I am NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT TEMPORAL DETERIORATION on the part of the artists. It is bad to start with in many vocalists of today. One can speculate about Electronic Thambura vs Actual Thambura etc but I attribute it to very poor TRANSDUCERS which are operated well beyond their design capabilities DISOBEYING THE H-D CURVE that is not being operated as Class A amplifiers for example. But this is obviously ACCEPTABLE to most of the audience. Actually I choose to attend only concerts that approximate a chamber concert when I go to India. I wish to state I am not against technology; I worked on the MOOG Synthesisers & Surround systems etc from the days of the SCHWEBER organs (fifties)etc as well as ACTUAL design of loud speakers , mics etc as a HOBBY. VKV :-ss

[arunk]

vkv sir,

thanks. I am probably in the minority, but I think electronic amplification and electronic tampura etc. is completely orthogonal to the problem at hand. It is a very convenient whipping boy.

Arun

[VK RAMAN]

sa pa sa must be taught, guided and let the student learn how to sing in sruti and if they move away from sruti, the teacher should stop and guide them how to maintain their singing in sruti.

[arunk]

In relation to this I also had this intriguing doubt I have had for a while regarding HM and use of harmonium (even during learning and used as an "aid" when singing)

Unless I am mistaken, harmonium follows equi-tempered tuning, This means the antara-gandharam (tivra gandhar?), a major swara, which ought be at 5/4 ratio of sa to be "perfect" will be off by more than a few cents (it has the widest variation between equi-tempered and just tuning - others e.g. ma and pa are very very close) on the harmonium. Thus given the extremely high standards of sruthi of HM (which is the thing that stands out beautifully immediately whenever I have heard an HM musician), how are they able to tolerate this deviance in that accompanying instrument (which is definitely aurally perceptible - even to many non-audiophiles I would suspect) ?

Arun

[cacm]

vkv sir,

thanks. I am probably in the minority, but I think electronic amplification and electronic tampura etc. is completely orthogonal to the problem at hand. It is a very convenient whipping boy.

Arun

Dear A,
In your view what is the problem at hand?

I don't know whether I mailed you my attempt at trying to treat the whole issue of SOUND PROPAGATION from a total systems point of view.
HERE IT IS: I agree that Electronic Thambura etc is only one of the sub-segments of the whole issue according to me. VKV

ONE APPROACH TO ANALYZING, AND UNDERSTANDING OF THE Production, Transmission, and Reception of “MUSIC”
Aim is to “understand” Music in its totality an ambitious undertaking well beyond my current capabilities. To simplify matters “Music” here can be defined as the sound produced in trying to reproduce the twenty two distinct notes between a basic note and its next octave (and the slight and defined manipulations of these notes as well as the sub and super harmonics) as a function of time as defined in various schemes in music as well as various means. Of course both objective and subjective methods are used in judging the final product.
As the problem is complex it is proposed to break the totality into as many smaller but distinct subject areas to state, critique as well as try to reach some sort of consensus. A Global optimization Scheme (incidentally my entire professional career can be summed up as trying to reach the holy grail of global optimum in theoretical as well as practical areas in physics and applied mathematics) is a good candidate with Transducers of various kinds with use of various tools like: Signal to noise, Power Spectrum, Feed back Loops, Servo mechanisms, Brain Characteristics like plasticity, Neural networks, and several such methods. In my opinion ANALOG VS DIGITAL is a very KEY aspect that should be discussed in some depth.
For Starters three major areas are likely candidate sub-systems: Production, Transmission and Reception of Music. Also I would like Classical Carnatic Music as the initial candidate for study.
In my own case I have had interactions at various levels since 1950 with various musicologists (India as well as N.A.) as well as musicians in carnatic music AND OTHE GENRES. I have discussed in detail and been enlightened by the greats of twentieth century like MMI, MSS, PMI, FLUTE MALI, LGJ, SB, V.R, P.S.P., V.R., P.R, Mandolin S among others. I am hoping others will SHARE their interactions and experiences also.
My own “Strengths” are: 1) Listening to Carnatic music since 1950 on a regular basis, organizing concerts in India & N.A. over that period including the Sound System Management. 2) Learning Vocal, Flute, and Mridangam for close to ten years. 3) Collecting, Digitizing as well as concerts (from 1940’s to roughly 1975). 4) My Physics Hons specialty was Electronics and I have designed and built amplifiers, Loud speakers and been involved with high end Hi-Fi equipment manufacturers in USA in sixties& seventies. Also I have been involved with Smithsonian on S/N as well as “Noise Reduction” schemes with Smithsonian & Bell Labs. While I am a Theoretical Physicist the nature of my professional work forced me to do PRACTICAL instrumental work as well as evaluation.
I am looking to EXCHANGES so everyone can benefit. If this interests LET ME KNOW in what I expect to be a VERY LONG EFFORT to make sense. Regs, V.K.Viswanathan

[Rsachi]

KNV plus VKV plus Srinath have put a number of significant points on the table. Thanks.

A musician who has mastered the concert technique but hasn't put in the required continuous rigour in self calibration of Sruti...
A stage set-up where he or she can hardly hear their own sound well...
A number of sound sources of disparate sound quality, amplitude and timbre, all producing sound vigorously. Perhaps the electronic Sruti box may just add a bit more to the problem by sounding so different from natural voice/string sounds.
BTW the flute also offers its own challenges in the Sruti department. So it can sound heavenly when well aligned, and quite bad when not so.

(Another orthogonal problem is when mandolin/Veena/violin have a LOUD pick- up and pretty much drown out accompanists..the sound effect is bad and Sruti becomes a collateral damage.)

An audience connected to the soul of the music and so not paying attention to the Sruti lapses..

We have a Molotov cocktail on our hands.

A further point I have heard from experts - those trained on string instruments like Veena and violin get a microtonal Sruti sense in their vocal music also and do better. This is mentioned to me when accomplished vocalists do well, and I am pointed out "see this perfect gamaka, note, sruti - comes from his/her instrumental capability.."

[SrinathK]

Yes the harmonium is ET and the gandharam is noticeably out of tune against a perfect 5/4.

Also regarding vocal teaching in particular, we have a glaring absence of tone production lessons and development of resonances using all the resonators by training the voice in all the syllables and the continuous consonants, not to mention correct ways of using the voice that minimize or eliminate unwanted strain, developing lung power through pranayamam -- all things that have to be cultivated for life. Vidwath grows over the years, but technique needs constant maintenance. Incorrect technique is dangerous in the long run -- despite huge vidwath one may not be able to sing a single note in tune later on.

IIRC, Sri KVN had made several points on sruthi shuddham and voice cultivation in an interview and one thing he said was that one should always start with the lower octave verses in the morning and only proceed to the upper octave much later after the voice is totally clear.

And also @KNV1955, yes, it's more than just Sa-Pa-SA (I was referring to a certain "expert" comment I read some months back poking fun at shruti shuddam practice which opined that getting sa correctly should be as easy as mastering 2+2 = 4 and therefore one should be able to master pitch perfection overnight ) ). But we know though how much work it takes to make it as easy as 2+2=4. Every note and gamaka has to go through that polishing process and a phrase has to be practiced slowly at first so that one can identify all the mistakes one is making. That's one thing I learnt much later. Nearly all beginners I have seen (myself included) keep practicing varsais and krithis and varnams at concert tempo like a rehearsal -- and then I would wonder why I never improved beyond a point.

But it is also incorrect to say that there are few CM musicians with good sense of shruti shuddam. We have plenty of voices & instrumentalists with excellent shruti shuddam and tone.

[KNV1955]

Srinath. An exercise which my father used to do with his students. He will say plain 'Sa' then ask one of them to sing in correct sthanam. Then he will say plain Nee. They were expected to respond quickly. It is like you said should become as easy as 2+2=4. Almost 80% of the students would fail in this excercise. As you said one should learn to sing without straining the voice. A number of outstanding musicians have been victim of strained singing. It hurts their voice as they grow older.

[Rsachi]

Srinath,
Of course there are some vocalists and more so instrumentalists who manage the Sruti issue well. But I have found that even most of these artistes have occasional lapses when I observe three or four concerts in succession.
Also the combined probability of all artistes on the stage hitting off together on the Sruti front is I think an issue in many concerts. And nowadays I see so many programs on TV and radio all the time.

Just my opinion. I am not an expert at all.

[cacm]

quote="SrinathK".
"But it is also incorrect to say that there are few CM musicians with good sense of shruti shuddam. We have plenty of voices & instrumentalists with excellent shruti shuddam and tone."
I AGREE with the sruti suddham part. BUT that is not enough. In addition Swara Sthana Suddham is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED for the proper Gamakas to be produced for each raga. This was ASSIDUOSLY PRACTISED BY MMI & M.S. in particular.
In GENERAL in my opinion based on some technical analysis with Ocilloscopes & such that VOCALISTS of present time are not good specimens. Instrumentalists like DR.Narmadha, Akkarai S. ARE BETTER than most of the previous generation.
In short I am of the firm opinion that EXCLUDING the BANGERS who have created a NEW GENRE where Decibel levels are the NORM & predominant over clean & perfect strokes etc TODAY'S Instrumentalists are at least EQUAL if not BETTER than the previous generation as a rule......An old man's opinion-have been regularly testing my ears- :-ss VKV

[Rsachi]

Ok sir, thanks for highlighting this aspect. In my use of the term Sruti alignment, I include the alignment to individual swarasthanas and thus microtonal purity. As a layman, I have said and also heard others say, when someone strays from swarasthana alignment, "apaswara" or also "Sruti lost"!

I readily agree that many current day accompanists and instrumentalists score higher than even past maestros in this area.
But the overall score in a concert, and the fundamental issues to be remedied in this area, need to be stressed, to my mind at least.

[vallknowme]

They just don't listen properly. Lot of distractions.

[ganeshkant]

What if there are minor shruti lapses during a performance ? I don't think a musician deliberately errs on shruti;it happens. I don't mind shruti lapses as long as the soul of music is maintained.Also I don't count on musicians who have the so called perfect alignment on shruti but offer dead and gaudy music.

[Ranganayaki]

Rajeshnat,
Ganeshkant's post (#29 above) shows neera ksheera viveka.. He is not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. You discard the lapses and keep the nicer experience.

Thank you, Sri Govindan for the explanation in answer to Rajeshnat's question to me..

Sometimes I wonder if that is a very bad thing. As I grow older, I find there is a certain ugliness in intransigence, and a certain hypocrisy in demanding perfection. There is more beauty and softness in forgiveness and why can't I apply that to music - as a rasika? This is my other side, the more prevalent one (these days).

But as far as I am able to see in this discussion while people say that instrumentalists are doing much better now than before, no one is complimenting some of today's vocalists who sing smoothly without a problem.

Also are we talking about shruti lapses that go unrecognized by the singer? or are we talking about a momentary lapse that is recognized by the singer who stops and fixes it? I can cite an example of the former in a kutcheri that we can listen to as it is available in a link, but I don't know if it will be nice of me to do that.

[Rsachi]

Ranganayaki,
I have seen how Western classical music lovers simply cannot stand a badly tuned piano. (piano tuning is a major specialised activity involving experts with tuning forks and so on)
Sruti is similarly a crucial aspect of Carnatic music. Last year in our survey, it was rated by rasikas as the #1 criterion of good music.
Coming to the attitude of a rasika, forgiveness will help us to enjoy Carnatic music of various grades of perfection even in matters of Sruti. At the same time, one thing is to rationalise Sruti lapses. But this discussion was started in an attempt to discover the root causes of the Sruti misalignment problem.
Perhaps we are all on the same page here.

[vasanthakokilam]

Srinath. An exercise which my father used to do with his students. He will say plain 'Sa' then ask one of them to sing in correct sthanam. Then he will say plain Nee. They were expected to respond quickly. It is like you said should become as easy as 2+2=4. Almost 80% of the students would fail in this excercise.

I think KVN's exercise has to be done almost daily by students and musicians. It is an exercise in calibration. But with out a competent guru/person at the other end, how does one know quickly that they calibrated correctly. This is where applications like Arun's Swarasthana is immensely helpful.

Similarlly, I think gamaka calibration is an essential part of one's daily practice routine. For example, after having calibrated the plain Kalyani Ni with an app or guru, the oscilating Kalyani Ni can be calibrated. We do not need an app for this, this can be done by listening since one knows when it is right. Similarly for other gamakas of various ragas. Then all of these 'atoms' can be combined into bigger 'molecules of higher level structures. One should be able to tell if a 5 to 10 second long molecule consisting of both plain and ornamented notes is correct just by listening.

Then the actual practice for the day can start.

[KNV1955]

This is where applications like Arun's Swarasthana is immensely helpful.

I agree you need a Guru who can correct the mistakes. Can Arun demonstrate the work he has done & upload in You Tube. The least one can do is to listen to sruti aligned music & develop the Sruti sense over a period of time. I include even Tamil & Hindi melodies of Suseela & Lata. HMusic like Bhimsen Joshi;Venkatesh kumar etcetc.

KNV

[Nick H]

<CYNIC>

Today we have microphones for those who cannot project their voice beyond the end of their noses.

Tomorrow, Auto-Tune-CM for those that can't get the note right?

</CYNIC>



(Just joking, really. I hope.)



.

[Rsachi]

[arunk]

> Can Arun demonstrate the work he has done & upload in You Tube

You can view the info about the app and demos at http://arunk.freepgs.com/swarasthana

The demo in relation to sruth-suddham is the "Sruthi Suddham" feature. The direct link to the related demo is: http://arunk.freepgs.com/swarasthana/me ... uddham.mov

Arun

[vallknowme]

There are more theorists, quantifierers and physicists more than practioners. Sad.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Practitioners in low numbers are always good for the time being. It is perhaps time to step back to do a reform and then proceed. It is not practice that makes anyone perfect, but a perfect practice. Practice only makes something permanent.

What can be more frustrating in this busy world where you set a good number of hours daily for years, and later come to know all that many myriad of hours were just some obscure practice sessions. But, what is done cannot be undone , including the wasted time and eschewed other opportunities. For starters, the system is such that it has kept most people view it differently - intimidating actually. And then when you want to learn , the system of learning itself is such pain and confusing. Now after many many years I can confidently say this is not how it should have been. Why were we put to such a futile drill without clear explanation for as straightforward as this???. There are hundreds of people who had discontinued because of the system of learning per se, where they are not made to understood the concept of notes. I know a friend who was taught for two years and still finds it hard to to make out notes. Well he may be able to sing the varnams in a sangathi in a phrasal way. Is that music?

But he is not the only one. It is not minor laplse of notes, but major lapse many a times.
Let us call ten musicians as judges and let me play a carnatic piece by another famous musician and I would be glad if all the notes and and micronotes is exactly notated or even explained by all the 10 musicians, 100 percent agreeing to each other.

Some may argue "something is better than nothing". "Why should it be perfect "Sa"? "To me somewhere around that region is pleasing, as long as I could guess it could have been Sa" . Unfortunately , that is SOMETHING like music.

NONETHELESS , THERE WERE A FEW PEOPLE IN CM WHO REBELLED THIS SYSTEM ( REBELLIONS BECAUSE THEY ALIGNED TO SHRUTHI), AND STILL GAVE GREAT MUSIC. I WOULD ALWAYS REVERE THEM.

[ganesh_mourthy]

<CYNIC>

Today we have microphones for those who cannot project their voice beyond the end of their noses.

Tomorrow, Auto-Tune-CM for those that can't get the note right?

</CYNIC>



(Just joking, really. I hope.)



.

This app can be a guilty pleasure.
On the spot "Auto tune" of notes software if attached to the mic can be great for the time being so that both the shruthi tolerent and intolerent can equally enjoy the same concert.

But, I see that some audiences are exceptionally tolerant and it does not matter.

Arun , I did not know about this software. This could be a groundbreaking app for learners and very welcoming. At least , 20 years later, we dont want this same " shruthi lapse " topic repeating itself in Rasikas. But , is there no way I can test it in any other than IPAD or IPHONE? I have a macbook , the same family of apple. Samsung tab does not accept it.

[Nick H]

the shruthi tolerent and intolerent can equally enjoy the same concert

I am blessed with an inaccurate sense of pitch.

Until recently, I had always thought that curse for a music lover!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Has anyone tested ArunK's app in any other machines other machines? I tried in Windows and it was asking quicktime.

[Rsachi]

ArunK
The demo is quite simple but impressive, it seems to work regardless of voice timbre. But requires one flat nite to be sung at a stretch. Perhaps good for initial music lessons,

I feel Sruti suddham oscillograph software should be available free online for it to become widespread in usage. Please think about it!

This is a further query to ArunK:
Please respond to my need for Sruti alignment analysis in two scenarios:
1. There is a raga Alapana vocal with violin accompaniment. It sounds very nice. I have it recorded. Can I analyse how the vocal and violin are doing re. Sruti alignment? The raga is Kambhoji and the alapana is in the higher octave.
2. A student wants me to critique an amateur recording of a varnam rendered on the flute. I feel the basic flow of the Varnam is alright, but at several places there have been Sruti lapses. I want to point out as objectively as possible these lapses.

Do you have any software to do this? Can it produce a graph over say five minutes of a sample with the result showing a kind of histogram of different % ratings of Sruti alignment accuracy (given user selected strict or easy filters) of the piece? Does tambura and mridangam etc. influence the software accuracy?

[Rsachi]

Anecdote:
A mridangam vidwan from Kerala who had known PMI well was once my colleague and told me this story way back in 1975-6.
It seems there was once a visit of PMI to Sir CVR's sound lab. CVR told PMI that tuning a mridangam by the ear could be bettered by a scientific set-up. PMI disagreed, saying that experienced mridangam Vidwans would be able to tune the mridangam perfectly. Thereupon a mridangam was brought and PMI tuned it really well. Then CVR placed it under a contraption (I imagine that perhaps the set-up was what we are familiar with- with a speaker on top generating a vibration and the mridangam top covered lightly with a powder or some kind of dust that would settle into a pattern after resonance) and showed that accuracy of Sruti alignment was not perfect. He went on to use his scientific method to improve the tuning.

This could just be an unverifiable anecdote but I feel such technical aids would be useful in instructional lessons for improving ourselves technically in CM. We already know the incredible demo that Sri UKS gave at MA playing to a metronome and how well he performed. To me it is obvious that he would have used the metronome routinely before that lecdem for him to accomplish that level of skill.

Any thoughts, comments or stories from the cognoscenti around here?

Thanks.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hello Rsachi,

Did you check that app in IPad?

[Rsachi]

No I just saw the demo.

[KNV1955]

[quote="ganesh_mourthy"]Practitioners in low numbers are always good for the time being. It is perhaps time to step back to do a reform and then proceed. It is not practice that makes anyone perfect, but a perfect practice. Practice only makes something permanent.

Nice post Ganesh.
Arun demo is not working in Windows.

KNV

[arunk]

Sorry - I think you have to install the quicktime plugin on Windows to see the demo (which is just a video file, NOT the app itself). It is a free plugin and it is from Apple (I mean no spyware/malware). If still having trouble, I will try to upload to youtube later if possible.

Note: The app is mainly meant for beginners (and enthusiasts) . No one should hold on to the notion that seasoned practitioners can find use with it

Rsachi - I do have a pitch analysis tool of my own - but at this point it is not "packaged" for wider consumption. It also was written on mac - while it is portable to windows etc. - I haven't spent a whole lot of time on it off late (except use it for other needs i.e. as an "end user"). It is one of those things that is still in a "close but yet to be finished" things on my plate . Hopefully one of these days.

But there is another program called Sonic Visualizer which we have talked about on this forum in the past for such needs (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 556#p69556 - post #100 by me). It is free and it should do the job (user interface is a bit odd IMO i.e. in terms of zoom etc.).

----------------------------
But IMHO this is somewhat misguided. While there are indeed sruthi faults in live concerts (in many genres), pitch analysis is not needed because
1. For many swaras in many ragas, the notes are NOT held steady (e.g. g2 is flat in dhENuka, but is rarely so not in tODi but even kharaharapriya janya - it almost always has a gamaka or linked to ma etc. - I am no expert and so my example may not be 100% accurate but I hope it illustrates the underlying point I am trying to make)
2. For many swaras (other than sa,pa,m1,g3 etc.), it is hard to pin-point *exact* pitch as "the definitive swara". This is unlike EQ - where you know it is 0, 100 (cents), 200 (cents) etc.
3. Vocal chords have some small natural deviation.
4. And of course as has been alluded in the past, "sruthi suddham" in a genre of CM where notes are interlinked (most of the time), and carry oscillation (a huge % of time), is NOT all about hitting a particular "sthanam" flat. Sometimes the gamaka could be all wrong even if it traverses through the "right" points.

I guess I mean that if something "sounds wrong", the graphs may tell you why or how much - but the graph shouldn't be the starting point. I like the graphs more for finding the "internals" of a gamaka.

I always say "trust your ears" (or that of a person whom you admire for sruthi-sense ) than graphs to tell you something is wrong.



Thanks
Arun

[arunk]

Arun , I did not know about this software. This could be a groundbreaking app for learners and very welcoming. At least , 20 years later, we dont want this same " shruthi lapse " topic repeating itself in Rasikas. But , is there no way I can test it in any other than IPAD or IPHONE? I have a macbook , the same family of apple. Samsung tab does not accept it

The app itself runs only on iPad/iPhone.

The demo (which is only a video file NOT the app) should be playable anywhere but may need quicktime plugin to be installed.

Thanks
Arun

[Rsachi]

ArunK and others,
I began this thread by asking why Sruti alignment is a struggle in CM. We got lots of ideas and opinions.

We also saw there are software tools for pitch analysis.

I got another expert opinion from someone whom I respect. He says
1. Sruti perception is a psychoacoustic phenomenon.
2. Machines fall short in understanding timbre, and gamakas.
3. Majority of "rasika" ears lack competence to understand and analyse Sruti issues.
4. Simple exercises with guidance of a competent teacher and using a tambura for reference will go a long way in improving matters.

[arunk]

> 1. Sruti perception is a psychoacoustic phenomenon.
I definitely agree.

> 2. Machines fall short in understanding timbre, and gamakas.
I dont know what this means. Pitch analysis can be confused (or can be less reliable) for some instruments, and with polyphony. But in general I have found it to be quite illuminating actually particularly w.r.t gamakas.

> 3. Majority of "rasika" ears lack competence to understand and analyse Sruti issues.
I do agree here. To make a crude example, when our car/motorcycle gives trouble, it doesnt mean we know exactly what the problem is (i.e. we arent auto mechanics), nor do we know if there is really some problem when "it all does seems fine" to us.

> 4. Simple exercises with guidance of a competent teacher and using a tambura for reference will go a long way in improving matters.
I do agree but often times I have been frustrated by what seems to me like canned response "just ask him/her to do akara exercises in 3 speeds early in the morning" . The methodology behind the execution of such an exercise is usually nor explained -- perhaps it is presumed to be a 2+2 = 4 type of thing that needs no explanation! But I think (like many things in life) there are x ways of doing something wrong, and y ways of doing something right, and simply saying "do that something" is inadequate?

Arun