What is a raga?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Feb 2006, 01:22

Recently I was faced with the most pleasant opportunity of describing what a raga is to a musician. He is more of a practicing guitar player ( Rock, blues and western pop ) than someone interested in theory.

I tried the usual thing about raga is not just a scale but it is a melodic entity consisting of a scale definition + gamakam + characteristic phrases. He sort of understood it but I can see I have not really communicated much.

Then I tried the more artistic description: It is a musical contour through which you travel with the listener. For each raga, think of the contour as a three dimensional thing. At any point, you have a choice of going up or down ( scale ), sideways ( gamaka ) or forward and backward ( prayogams ). That raga journey, though unique everytime due to improvisation, has many commonalities and that common experience from journey to journey is what gives the raga the recognizable identity. He and I had a good laugh that I made it sound like a fairytale but he said he got a better feel for what a raga is from such a description. Musicians have wide imagination and I suspect he probably interpreted that in quite a different way from what I intended which is perfectly fine. He is now wondering why the millions of songs in the major scale don't have that recognizable and categorizable identity.

Anyway, I thought I will post it here to see if you have a better description of what a raga is, described with out resorting to musical fundamentals but keeping it in the artistic abstraction. I usually do not like to start by saying 'It is a scale but there is much more than that'. I probably over complicated the artisitic description above but I was making that up as our conversation proceeded.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Feb 2006, 02:36

VK,
I have had a similar conversation with my daughter's pianao teacher: finally, I played 'shakti sahita gaNapatim' for him (thanks to CML for that piece!), which although in shankarABaraNam, is closer to the major scale of western music: he got that piece fairly easily; then, I played him MSS's absolutely divine (in my biased opinion) AlApanai of shankarABaraNam and told him, the first was a scale, the second 'THE' rAgam. He claimed he understood the difference clearly! Either the audio clips were worth more than words, or he may have just wanted to get away!
[BTW he found it tremendously hard to keep up with the AlApanai.]
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 12 Feb 2006, 04:09

Perhaps, in simplest terms you can define a raagam as a set of distinct and established combination of notes, which also allows improvisation and gives pleasance to the listener by evoking certain feelings/Emotions
Correct me if I am wrong

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Feb 2006, 06:41

vk

this is a fascinating topic for which no single answer can be provided. Of course the HM folks will have an entirely different concept though they share their vocabulary with CM. Let us discuss here only CM.

years ago a very famous savant (I don't want to name him out of respect) told me that ragas are like vedic mantras. Just as there are mantra d^RiShTas (seer) there are raga d^RiShTas. He firmly believed that the Trinity had these visions and they were the ones who gave the form to the ragas (most of them) through inspiration. He said that the prayogas in the ragas should be only those phrases that were introduced by the Trinity. Everything else is taboo! In fact he practised it when he tuned a number of other kritis of vaggeyakarakas. In other words CM is a closed book but differenct combinations (infinite in number) of their phrases can produce enough CM till the end of time. He said that is the only way to preserve and promote CM! Now I pause to hear views from you guys!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Feb 2006, 07:47

A western musicologist (Harold Powers I believe) defines raga as a continuum with a "scale" on one end and a "tune" on the other end.

Dont know how accurate it is really, but seemed to me like a very concise way of encapsulating the concept of a raga. Also, whether this "definition" will convey the idea to someone who hasnt been exposed to the concept of raga - not sure either

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Feb 2006, 12:57

A western musicologist (Harold Powers I believe) defines raga as a continuum with a "scale" on one end and a "tune" on the other end.

Dont know how accurate it is really, but seemed to me like a very concise way of encapsulating the concept of a raga. Also, whether this "definition" will convey the idea to someone who hasnt been exposed to the concept of raga - not sure either

Arun

I had to stretch my own understanding of Raga to fit this definition. But it is definitely one way to look at it.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 16 Feb 2006, 11:37

CML writes ..."He said that the prayogas in the ragas should be only those phrases that were introduced by the Trinity"

I certainly have problems when the singers from the chittor school sing nadaloludai (somu or tadepalli) T
he tape sleeve mentions the raga Known to me but I cannot accept it as such with what I have heard elswhere..
I also remember overhearing on a bus in chennai during the season(in the 80s) , two students discussing the days proceedings and were referring to balmuralis demonstration earlier in the day where he deliberately sang a raga(Poorvikalyani) in a way that was difficult to identify -thereby making a point that our knowledge of a raga stems largely from what we have heard.

And of course Balakrishna Sastrigal used to very often say in his discourses-
" Raaga means Anuraaga .I always advise singers that their singing is of no use if it does not go straight into the heart.Everything else is secondary..."

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Feb 2006, 21:10

Thanks coolkarni
for the folllow-up. I wrote it to place in perspective the view of the die-hards of the older generations. The views were so solid that for nearly 100 years CM was stagnant and performers would not even sing compositions by anyone other than the Trinity. I am not sure how Patnam felt when he composed on the style of T with perhaps misgivings of violating a sacred trust. Even much later HMB was totally ignored since he was considered outside the sacred precints of CM (Trinity). Thus raga was locked in for a long time with sahitya as well as the grammer of the founders of CM for fear that a deviation would destroy the tradition of CM. Even today the experiments that go on in CM in the context of raga reasearch is viewed with suspicion. Our liberality only extends to the toleration of other languages! BMK though traditional is also an iconoclast! His latest contribution to Raga has indeed stirred the political bees nest

In this context I wonder whether new definitions of "raga" or "expositions" of existing ragas introducing "exotic" phrases will be welocme in CM! Is the climate ripe?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2006, 06:36

CML, classical and stagnation go together no matter what classical genre we can think of ( for the most part ). BTW, who scoffs at proyogams that are not Trinity's? I am just curious. That will for sure be a serious rasika.

The one thing I have heard is that musicians look up to SSP for proyoga and gamaka references.

Another tangential point is: Take mAnji for example. Varugalamo mAnji is quite different from the mAnji of Shyama Sastri. So, when one sings mAnji, one can always use a non trinity prayogram since there is such a strong reference point in varugalamo. In fact, when people talk about the existence or non-existence of the difference between Bhairavi and mAnji, one thing to keep in mind is, the differences between Varugalamo mAnji and SS mAnji is lot greater than SS mAnji and Bhairavi.

Another thing to ponder in this case is: Are Oothukadu's prayogams ( for al lthe ragas ) consistent with the Trinity prayogams?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Feb 2006, 09:45

OVK is NKB territory a la Ravikiran. In other words we have no surviving notations except for the private 'book' (of NKB) recovered by Ravikiran. Perhaps you are aware that ARI was quite resentful of deviations and he has stuck to his guns in tuning (e.g., thiruppaavai). SSI consistently followed tradition! Is KVN's manji same as ARI's? Did ARI ever render varugalaamO?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2006, 11:15

Thinking a little more about what CML said about deviations and coolkarni's following response

balmuralis demonstration earlier in the day where he deliberately sang a raga(Poorvikalyani) in a way that was difficult to identify -thereby making a point that our knowledge of a raga stems largely from what we have heard.

I consider myself as someone who would welcome changes to tradition that provides freshness and even more wholeheartedly welcome changes that get rid of any bad baggage from the past... Having said that, I see myself sticking to tradition when considering the kind of innovations BMK makes. In many cases, there is not much life or soul or a living spirit there. If I listen closely, I see all the good things: great voice, great swarasthanams, great attention to lyrics and pronounciation, control of the layam etc. But the gestalt is weak. Also, there is a sameness that pervades which is hard to get past. Believe me, I really want to like his 'innovations' and want him to be the leader of a new way, given the skills he possesses and his veteran status.

If there are many dimwits like me, that might explain why some innovations may not take root

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Feb 2006, 21:30

How about ILayaraaja ? He does a lot of experiments with classical ragas and uses miSra prayOgams (occasionally HM style), deliberately introduces foreign notes and vivadi swaras..No doubt he is a genius and an iconoclast. Will he ever get accepted and appreciated by CM folks?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2006, 01:48

Will he ever get accepted and appreciated by CM folks?

CML, if I consider myself as part of the CM folk on the rasika side, I will certainly fall on the side of 'accepting and appreciating' what he does and what he had done. ( I am a lukewarm fan of his symphony stuff like Thiruvasakam etc. I consider it listenable and I view it as a momemental achievement but it does not have the required weight for a western symphony. So, it is neither there nor here for me. And as a tangential remark, I wish he had resisted from singing in that CD

).

I give him great credit and respect for bringing in the folk element to film music and borrowing from Carnatic music to create the beautiful melodic hooks to create catchy tunes. So, I would definitely consider him an innovator but not in the CM domain. But, as you said, he definitely went beyond the bounds of CM classicism to create those melodies and so freedom from such grammar shackles can create wonders in the right hands like iLayarAja.

May be someone else can come along and look at what he did, add the necessary weighty punch to them and see if it fits in a CM concert. In these cases, in addition to the musical stuff, the personality and stature of the musician has a huge part to play in the acceptance game.

To finish off, is this the right way to look at Tamil Film song evolution?

Originally heavily Carnatic based-->MSV lightened it up--->iLayarAja added the folk aspects-->RahmAn mixed up the old and new tunes with a heavy western bent

inconsequential · Post by **inconsequential** » 18 Feb 2006, 03:51

Will he ever get accepted and appreciated by CM folks?

cmlsir

One of the favourite pastimes for a few of my friends who have fine taste in CM, is raga-identifying in isaignyAni iLaiyarAjA's songs. He may or may not have a following among the CMusicians themselves. Even if yes, it may depend on the age. If some one told me the genre and the nature of lyrics (CM and tamil-cinema music) has something to do with it, i wouldn't have a problem believing it. Even among lay listeners one hardly hears an elderly person humming "rAthiriyil pUthirukkum" - though it is a big hit among many raja-fans.

regards

inconsequential · Post by **inconsequential** » 18 Feb 2006, 04:07

Originally heavily Carnatic based-->MSV lightened it up--->iLayarAja added the folk aspects-->RahmAn mixed up the old and new tunes with a heavy western bent

vk,
Rahman mixed up old and new, added a generous dose of 'bass' in all forms, (string, hide) pushed a few keys, and made a few stable concoctions. then, started drawing from them in various proportions to make many "different" songs. towards the end of 90s, as the stock was drying up, he went back to his lab - in the meantime, the formula leaked out! Since such sounds were not heard in dEsh, it has gained acceptance as "western".

in anycase, it is always varying degrees of hamsAnandi or (subha)pantuvarALi. If all this fails, kAnaDa saves the day

just joking. no offence

regards

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2006, 06:06

incon... that is funny. So, is that a true characterization of what Rahman is all about or you are being sarcastic?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Feb 2006, 06:55

I never could understand Rahman. I guess too much of an age gap! Even in case of IR I had difficulty detecting the raga even if I am told the name. Mostly because of the foreign notes and the changes in tempo. It will be the day when IR gets considered forSK when we can say that CM has broken its shakles

May I ask whether chords have any role in CM ? If so could any of you post an example! Of course FM uses them freely!

inconsequential · Post by **inconsequential** » 18 Feb 2006, 08:50

vk:

indeed it is an exaggerated remark. opinions/tastes differ. in general, i find his (ARR) music highly incoherent, loose & requires elaborate sound-equipment even for a small effect.

regards

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Feb 2006, 09:42

May I ask whether chords have any role in CM ?

Normally not since Harmony is not an aspect of indian classical music ( CM or HM ) since it is monophonic. But of course there is a natural chord that happens. When the tanpura plays Sa and Pa and if the perfomer holds on the Ga, you get the most common Sa-Ga-Pa ( C-E-G) chord.

But chords are not just about C-E-G but are about chord progressions that follow the melody.

I have heard a performance where someone on Guitar provided chord support for a rendering of Raghu Vamsa sudha on flute. Sounded very good. But then that song and raga are suited for such treatment.

Personally for me, chords, say, in a Piano solo, clutter the thing. I am tuned to looking for the melody and it is frustrating that the melody does not quite stand out. It is all cultural and what one is used to.

As an example, there is a beautiful and haunting piece called 'Melancholia' by Duke Ellington. It is a fairly complex piece with chords interwoven freely with the melodic line. It used to sound very mysterious to me. But, by chance, I happened to catch on TV a vocalist ( Norah Jones ) sing the melody lines of that song accompanying herself on Piano. A lot of things about that song came clear to me since there was this clear separation between melody and harmony. Now when I hear the original Duke Ellington Piano solo, the enjoyment is quite a bit high since I know how to separate them out.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Feb 2006, 11:17

VK

I think our perception is pre-conditioned by hang-ups. Melody is certainly not opposed to harmony. The chorus renderings (eg., pancaratna) could very well use chords as also bhajans. The HM folks are hung up on vadi/samvadi stuffs. But that is not explicit in CM. Film music is bold and they do try. I have heard some old movies where the accompaniment is the organ with appropriate chords and it was delightful. At present the FM has deviated too much and I find it difficult to fit it in the CM mold. Ravikiran is into some innovative experiments and some of them are quite interesting. We need to have an open mind!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Feb 2006, 07:16

CML, agreed, absolutely. Especially about keeping an open mind.

BTW, you mentioned chords can be appropriated more with Chorus singing and Bhajans. Chords are in the polyphonic category(harmony) alright but chorus singing is still monophonic since there is still only one melodic line. So the challenges and difficulties with chords and CM seem to be the same whether it is chorus singing or not. I am just curious what you had in mind.... not a big deal.

Back to thinking about how chords may coexist with CM, the spirit should still be keeping the raga bhava alive and within the familiar territory. And it is just too easy to destroy the raga bhava with chords. It is probably straightforward for ragas like Mohanam etc. but beyond that it requires artisitic taste.

Here is even a bigger challenge. Normally, in non-improvised music, Chords can be chosen ahead of time and chord progressions overlaid neatly. How do you do chord progressions in the midst of extensive melodic improvisations? Not impossible to imagine or visualize but sounds like a daunting task. In Jazz, they do it but most of the improvisations there are harmonic.

'Incon' pointed to a link to Kiranavali's article on CM basics. (http://sawf.org/Newedit/edit04302001/musicarts2.asp)

There she writes:

"Remarkably enough, even as Carnatic music has imbibed novel or even alien concepts and makes them its own, it continues to retain its distinct image and identity, never jeopardising its fundamental foundations. This is because the basic concepts of Carnatic music have been so all encompassing and anticipatory that innovations or imports have only enriched it without irreversibly modifying its basic structure."

Improvisations on Harmony.... can that be done with out irreversibly modifying CM's basic structure? That is something to ponder.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Feb 2006, 11:13

vk

I was thinking of the church choir where the chords are effectively used. In chorus singing in CM we always have conflict due to the difference in shruti among the singers. For example the pancaratna at T festival does sound a mess due to the medley of voices. Chords would soften the voices and blend them into harmony. (my guess since I have not seen it used!). When DKJ or KVN have the women accompany (though they adjust their voices) still the disharmony is evident at times. Perhaps chords would help harmonize. CM is primarily a one person vocal; but why not multiple voices and try chords appropriately progressing to create a novel pattern! Will it work?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2006, 04:23

CML, chords are not going to help out in smoothing out sruthi variations in group singing. Males and females should still work out a comfortable sruthi so that the females are an octave higher than males. ( normally ). And same is true of the disharmony that may sometimes be there with the artists you mentioned.

One thing to be clear is, the english word 'harmony or dis-harmony' is too imprecise for the musically technical word 'harmony'. CM does not have harmony but it does not mean it is not harmonious in the common english way of saying it. A better word is 'polyphonic'. CM is not polyphonic. If a male and female sing together the same melodic line one octave apart, that is still monophonic. I know I am preaching to the choir here ( pun intended

)...

There is another common expression 'vocal harmony' and 'vocal self harmony' that is prevalent among western pop and light jazz circles. It is strictly not polyphonic since the person joining the main artist 'sings together' pretty much the same melodic line. 'Vocal self harmony' is done in studio recordings where they put together two vocal lines of the same main artist. It is intentionally not a perfect match usually and they also lay it out slightly offset in time to create some nice sonic effects, so there is this mildest excuse for calling it vocal harmony.

Back to CM, overlaying chord progressions on top of the pre-composed portions of a CM song is really not the biggest challenge, not to trivialize the daunting artististic and creative endeavor involved in that. I think it is possible and if done, it has to be done keeping the raga lakshna together.

The challenge probably is chord progressions in the midst of melodic improvisations. Since CM is heavy on melodic improvisations, the harmony person has to be on top of that and provide the polyphonic line, at near simultaneous time and within the raga framework. Anticipation of the melody even amidst improvisations, though sounds oxymoronic, is already demonstrated in some places in CM. Melodic accompanists like violinists do that towards the end of a long kalpanaswarams where they play almost together with the vocalists. But other places the violinist simply steps away since it will only spoil what the vocalist is trying to improvise.

In instrumental 'heavy' Jazz, they do mainly harmonic improvisations. Two instrumentalists, for example, will cross improvise on chords, over a relatively straighforward and non-improvised melodic line. The rules are minimal and freedom of expression is given the highest importance.

I do not know how to even think or conceptualize in terms of melodic improvisations + harmonic improvisations overlaid on a set raga lakshana and thala.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Feb 2006, 06:46

VK

Thanks for that explanation. But here is a wellknown example. Take our National Anthem. It is in Alaya BilAvel (somewhat close to Bilahari but quite different). It is usually played with chords (I don't know which triads!). It will sound very flat without the chords. I have even heard vocal rendering accompanied on the organ with chords; sounds nice! Shouldn't we try those experiments with our very classical music?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 20 Feb 2006, 08:44

a small but interesting extract from a documentary.
The assamese violinist is a student of N Rajam
and the Fench violinist is Gilles Apap.

Part 2 -where they play a short kalavathi -tomorrow

http://rapidshare.de/files/13629089/DIV00000.MPG.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/13676819/DIV00001.MPG.html

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2006, 11:04

Thanks Coolkarniji. This goes straight into addressing the topic I started the thread with. Super. Her few seconds of singing goes a long way to explain what it is about.

But the french violinist did not seem to get it, though he seems to have genuinly enjoyed her little demo. Did you get the same impression? She so beautifully equated the gamaka graces to 'calling someone with love' and his return comment was something about 'the notion of time'!!

And I do not know what to make of his comment about 'the wrong note' perception that westerners might have about Indian music. Though I have heard that from people who have heard that comment from others, I have not really heard that reaction from someone who have actually heard the music. A few people have told me that it sounds strange and different but not the 'wrong note'.

I am looking forward to the second part. The stage is nicely set.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2006, 11:11

CML, yeah efforts like the chorded national anthem would work, I think. The episode I narrated about guitar chords to Raghu Vamsa Sudha on flute is sort of in that ballpark. Trying that with Gamakams, raga lakshana and manodharma? Hmmmm...that seems to require a real visionary, genius and a free spirited creative mind.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 21 Feb 2006, 09:08

VK
here is the second set.

http://rapidshare.de/files/13757420/DIV00002.MPG.html

http://rapidshare.de/files/13757923/DIV00003.MPG.html

The French Violinist featured there is Gilles Apap (you can visit his site )
http://www.gillesapap.com/bio-gilles.htm

This extract is from a documentary film made by him .A beautiful film that traces his journey in India in search of more meaningful music.
At one point in the movie he narrates how he gets fed up with the concept of perfection in his training as a Western Classical Music (the Exams ,the way his Mother pushes him through the courses,etc ).He even deliberately crushes his fingers by jamming them in a door to avoid pursuing that music.As Luck would have it , the Doctors end up healing his fingers and he discovers that he can play the violin again.Much later in life he visits Benares and takes lessons from N Rajam as welll as Dr Balaji there
This is the story of his experiences.With breathtaking visuals.
I got it from a friend in Chennai-He was a host to Gilles Apap for a day and that is how we have this copy with us today.

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 22 Feb 2006, 09:49

VK: "And I do not know what to make of his comment about 'the wrong note' perception that westerners might have about Indian music. Though I have heard that from people who have heard that comment from others, I have not really heard that reaction from someone who have actually heard the music. A few people have told me that it sounds strange and different but not the 'wrong note'."

That's precisely how i feel (wrong note) when i listen to Jazz. But carnatic musicians seem to identify most with Jazz and Jazz musicians - i presume that's primarily because of the "improvisational" element in both forms of music. Is there more to that Jazz - CM link?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Feb 2006, 12:35

new_cmfan: I had to think a little bit about why Jazz sound might come across as a wrong note for you. BTW, my knowledge with jazz is very limited, especially instrumental Jazz which the purists consider to be the 'real' Jazz.

I thought of two possibilities: Jazz is wide and varied and there are some fringes that can be wierd. Second, Jazz musicians like Wynton Marsalis do some stuff with trumpets and horns that might sound 'strange'. With a cup like thing, they partially close and open the big opening. It sounds like the sound of an elephant, sort of similar to the sounds made in festivals in India. But depending on the rate of opening and closing it can sound apaswaramish.

But with piano jazz, for example, it should sound alright to us ( mild tuning differences aside between CM and Jazz ).

You are right about the reason for the CM and Jazz connection. I would say the opposite is more true: Jazz musicians find something interesting in Indian music. Though 'improvisation' is a common theme, Jazz improvisation is more on the harmony side than on the melodic side, so there is really very little overlap. But since Jazz's boundaries are fuzzy and musicians are always looking to 'jam' to new things, Indian melody and rhythm ( especially ) provides a lot of scope for them to sink their teeth into.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Feb 2006, 12:36

Thanks coolkarniji for the second quota of the video. Nicely done.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Feb 2006, 18:34

VK - CML
Your discussions on the national anthem and the Jazz connection made me look up a lovely Saxophone (western) Track that Reminds me of our national anthem.
Thought it may interest you.
http://rapidshare.de/files/13939836/DON ... A.mp3.html

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Feb 2006, 18:43

Here is a word file with some lovely passages from the book by Raghava Menon " The Story of the Indian Raga"

http://rapidshare.de/files/13939301/the ... a.doc.html

One particular explanation is so apt.

"raga cannot be built or put together part by part.Like the human body in which the organs are often referred as being inside the body,while it is neither inside it nor outside it.The body was not created sequentially one part after another and its inner organs put inside it.It came instantaneously all in one single growing.That is why many musicians consider raga as having a life of its own and beyond trammel.That is why raga is not a scale of notes"
Unquote.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Feb 2006, 21:09

Dear coolkarni!

Who is the artiste? I have never heard such an elegant interpretation of our National Anthem! It took me into the dream lands traversing Our Country from coast to coast through skies (gagana maarga) and took me to the top of the Himalayas for a dramatic panoramic view (the crash of the cymbals)! Ineffable! Thanks!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 23 Feb 2006, 21:19

cml
I only know the name of the artist who gave me these tracks.
PARAM.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 24 Feb 2006, 02:21

a small but interesting extract from a documentary.
The assamese violinist is a student of N Rajam
and the Fench violinist is Gilles Apap.

Part 2 -where they play a short kalavathi -tomorrow

http://rapidshare.de/files/13629089/DIV00000.MPG.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/13676819/DIV00001.MPG.html

I see that the Assamese violinist bows with her left hand. Is it because of her being left handed ness?

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 24 Feb 2006, 06:02

VK - CML
Your discussions on the national anthem and the Jazz connection made me look up a lovely Saxophone (western) Track that Reminds me of our national anthem.
Thought it may interest you.
http://rapidshare.de/files/13939836/DON ... A.mp3.html

This is a great song by Andrew Lloyd Webber - from "Evita" which was a movie about Eva Peron - the wife of Argentinian president Juan Peron in the late 40s i think.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Feb 2006, 07:18

Thanks very much new_cmfan!

What is the context?

Thanks also PARAM! For the delectable treat via Sabari

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 24 Feb 2006, 08:13

Well - it's been a while since i saw the movie - "Evita". But as i remember it, Evita is a rags to riches story. This poor rural girl in Argentina moves to a big city, becomes an actress, meets the future president, marries him, becomes the first lady and does a lot of good for the rural poor in Argentina, and then dies of cancer suddenly. Don't really remember when she sings this song "Don't cry for me Argentina" - so can't give you much of a context for the song.

Andrew Lloyd Webber on the other hand is a versatile british composer - may even have been knighted (not that it means a whole lot). His music is quite popular - he scored the music for several Broadway musicals that became movies. I think he may have had something to do with Bombay Dreams - the AR Rahman thing.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Feb 2006, 08:36

new_cmfan
thank you so much for giving us the background !

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Feb 2006, 08:44

You are right new_cmfan
http://www.reallyuseful.com/rug/andrew/

new_cmfan · Post by **new_cmfan** » 24 Feb 2006, 08:48

Ah Coolji

It is a pleasure. I feel guilty in a strange way, soaking up all this knowledge about CM, Sanskrit, a little bit of purANA, and a lot of music - for free. So once in a while when i can contribute something - i am thrilled like i have accomplished something and more importantly - I feel like i have earned the right to soak up some more knowledge... for free

The pleasure is all mine!

nnramya · Post by **nnramya** » 24 Feb 2006, 13:20

I haven't downloaded "Dont cry for me Argentina" yet. Well, if the track is the same one that appears in the movie "Evita", then it is rendered by Madonna, who also plays the lead - Eva Peron, in the movie. She is picturized singing from the balcony to a huge crowd of Argentinian supporters gathered outside. Quite moving. The song itself is sung so beautifully, the music is so captivating!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 25 Feb 2006, 01:12

Wasn't this song originally sung by Sarah Brightman?

I haven't downloaded "Dont cry for me Argentina" yet. Well, if the track is the same one that appears in the movie "Evita", then it is rendered by Madonna, who also plays the lead - Eva Peron, in the movie. She is picturized singing from the balcony to a huge crowd of Argentinian supporters gathered outside. Quite moving. The song itself is sung so beautifully, the music is so captivating!

meena · Post by **meena** » 25 Feb 2006, 01:26

i never did enjoy the movie or the song! maybe cause of Madonna

but the broadway musical -evita, i did enjoy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Cry_ ... _Argentina (some odd reason the page does not show up)

"Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" is the best-known song from the 1978 musical Evita with music by Andrew Lloyd Webber and lyrics by Tim Rice.

Sung by the title character Eva Peron, it was originally to be titled "It's Only Your Lover Returning", before Rice settled on the eventual title.

First recorded by Julie Covington in the 1976 studio version, it was then performed on stage by Elaine Paige when the show opened on June 21, 1978.

Madonna recorded the song in 1996 for the film version of Evita, in which she starred. Madonna's version was also recorded as a dance mix in both English and Spanish, which was released as a single in early 1997.

It has subsequently been recorded by many artists including the Carpenters, Olivia Newton-John, the Shadows (1978), Joan Baez (1980), Donna Summer (1981), SinÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â©ad O'Connor (1992), Sarah Brightman and Mike Flowers Pops (1996), and Me First and the Gimme Gimmes (1999). Paloma San Basilio and Nacha Guevara recorded well-known versions of the song in Spanish (No llores por mÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â Argentina). Katja Ebstein did a popular German version called Wein' nicht um mich Argentinien. The song has also been recorded in several other languages."

i have listened to oliver newton john version, have to check my daughters cd collections for sarah brightman take!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Feb 2006, 01:38

The lyric is at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~josvg/cits/sb/sb213-org.html

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Feb 2006, 03:02

One particular explanation is so apt.

"raga cannot be built or put together part by part.Like the human body in which the organs are often referred as being inside the body,while it is neither inside it nor outside it.The body was not created sequentially one part after another and its inner organs put inside it.It came instantaneously all in one single growing.That is why many musicians consider raga as having a life of its own and beyond trammel.That is why raga is not a scale of notes"

There is so much merit to the statement above and it takes a long time to understand the many dimensions in which this 'wholeness' is exhibited. That is why describing the raga by its piece parts is so inadequate.

My friend and colleague who does not have any background in raga agreed to be the sounding board for this. He is also good at abstract and multi-dimensional thinking and brings in knowledge from other artistis fields. During the course of an hour during lunch last week, I gave him the various definitions we had discussed in this thread and asked him what each description tells him. His response indicated that there is still something missing.

Then I asked him. Here are the main ideas I want to convey. What is a good english and artistis word for that?: "Melodic brushstrokes with some fuzzy edges but a solid core", "recognizable", "malleable to some extent", "repeatable", "base for improvisation on melody", "individualizable to some extent".. etc.

The word he thought of is 'Motif'. At first, it did not mean much to me and the word had to sink in me for a few minutes. He also explained that Motif is used in Literature, Opera and other artistic fields to describe a theme. You can look up the dictionary definition as well. Once the meaning sunk in, I could see the usefulness of the word 'Motif' in the raga context.

Though Motif as used in other fields does not include the improvisational aspects, one way of looking at each raga is: "A Set of Melodic Motifs which are used as a vehicle for improvisation". One Motif is not sufficient for each raga, so each raga is a collection of Motifs.

Now try the Motif description as stated above on a few people and see how they understand that. It will still be a hit and miss depending on what their conception of Motif is....

nallanchakra · Post by **nallanchakra** » 28 Feb 2006, 00:42

I do not know much of the technical aspects of music but I would like to add to coolkarni's comments. To me each raga is a personality similar to the classical homeopathic system which classifies patients into remdial groups. Each raga is a living being. Since it has life, it is constantly changing and evolving in the sense that artists portaryal of the same raga can change with time- different perspetives each time. We can classify human beings on the basis of the ragas( may sound outlandish!), My favourite is sahana - so I'm a sahana person. There are others as well- sahana-priyan etc.. therefore each man can fall into a raga or a group of ragas... coolkarni could be a kedaragowla person... ( forgive me , if i'm wrong or offend you!)

So there could be no single defnition for what is a raga? a more apt question could be what is the consititution of a raga?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Feb 2006, 01:50

nallanchakra, the idea of 'what raga person are you' is interesting to ponder

. There can be a broad classification as well. Small Ma raga persons vs Big Ma raga persons. I tend to skew towards the Small Ma ragas but then there are many many moods and times when Kalyani, Purvi Kalyani and Subhapantuvarali etc. are the right ragas to fit those moods for me. So, may be the classification criteria is 'Which Ma ragas you have a bias ( or skew )'.

On specific ragas, if I am forced to, I may consider myself a 'Bhairavi-Mukhari-Huseni-Mohanam-Shankarabaranam-Kalyani-Bilahari' type. I feel bad for even stating this because there are tons of other ragas I love and listen to all the time as well.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Feb 2006, 02:03

So there could be no single defnition for what is a raga?

Actually the motivation for starting the thread is this: If someone unfamiliar with CM asks:'You keep talking about this raga and that raga, what is a raga?'. So, as an answer to that question, what is a good 'elevator ride' description that captures the essence of it?

It can later lead to more elaborate discussions if that person is interested or the other person can ponder this description in his own time. So it has to have enough depth in the description for such further pondering but something you can talk about in a minute or so.

The one I wrote above, 'it is a set of melodic motifs which is the basis for improvisation', takes just 5 seconds so there is even time for enjoying the puzzled look of the other person.