Somu, BMK, and others - 'serious' Carnatic?

[shankarank]

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVntoS_nFk - he does not have it.

Behind that came this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGvPP41JZKE . For the pitAmaha, as much he said he will not get into laya viSayangal, as regards the awareness itself, it is sahavasa dosham for him! His entire being aware of it and watch the interaction!

Then came this!

https://youtu.be/LCqZN8p4kFg?t=232 - Somebody whom we never heard much! Yeah in the Kerala thread!

Then I remembered a name. Visalakshi Nithyanand on an unrelated issue - on open throated singing. Nothing to do with Trivandrum R.S Mani - I didn't know. googled her! Bingo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk25BF0teNs - Yeah a junior Mridangist - tAlam also missed at one point. But before you get to sound production - watch the comfort on syllables and Akarams in relation to the tALa flow.

And now:

And furthermore why Carnatic music sounds so different in home practice sessions than on the stage.

After hearing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMxARASLlI

Will you even attempt hear any other version. Is that to do with home? The AAS itself is different! See how she comes back to starting the line with sItA going over the beat!

Does she sound like the style of somebody?
Yeah hear this and decide for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QK6aDfYj8s

Vishalakshi was singing in Narada Gana Sabha mini hall in 2002 - morning! Have we heard her after that?

On the same day probably in the NGS main hall , afternoon Madurai Sundar put me to sleep making this a main in slow pace. After NOT doing svarams for mIna locanE - tODi of HMB! I ran into Gauri Ramnarayan after the concert, and said it was too sedate and he should not have sung kalayANa rAmA as main. She responded by asking - well how did he sing the hamsanAdam rAgam?

You see that's what ails Carnatic music! This rAgA auditing by reviewers without sufficient attention to everything else!

The listeners meanwhile on the other hand are flocking to disco!

[Narayanan NB]

I always does not intensely map to a raga devatha

I completely disagree. I listened to an RTP of his in Rishabhapriya - and it was where Rishabhapriya came off as a distinct ragam, instead of a combination of kalyani and shanmukhapriya.

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

[shankarank]

But inspite of strong tALam and rhythmic technicalities, such awareness is missing in MLV's music.

The awareness is restored and shines in her murganin maru peyar azaghu and bArO krishnayya. Just the regimented pATantaram renditions of Carnatic is where it is missing!

To respond to TMK's gripe about "sampradAya", it is not about how many rAga lakshanams have been changed , the issue for listeners at large is here!!

The Mylapore snobbery has labelled it even dramatization!!

[shankarank]

I always does not intensely map to a raga devatha

I completely disagree. I listened to an RTP of his in Rishabhapriya - and it was where Rishabhapriya came off as a distinct ragam, instead of a combination of kalyani and shanmukhapriya.

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

While the upper tetrachord can only be Shanmugapriya - the lower terachord even if sung in kalyAni will not be stamp kalyANi - so it has to be arrived at by some - elimination nEti vicAram - well it can still be latAngi!

[shankarank]

To appreciate this, we should acknowledge the fact that music is creatable in Time dimension ( which our bones acknowledge) - but our intellect is subverted! And we just have to accept what we experience in time is also music and not entertainment.

Just listen to S Kalyanaraman, MC and Palghat Raghu - gana naya dESika - even if you all did - once more and many times more!!

[sureshvv]

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

Not all ragas are phrase based. Melas have to do be enjoyed as a whole with all swaras contributing in unison to the raga bhava,

[sankark]

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

Not all ragas are phrase based. Melas have to do be enjoyed as a whole with all swaras contributing in unison to the raga bhava,

And there lies the core issue I think - what distinct bhava do these have without showing the bhava of the nearby major ones? For those that can look at phrases as sequence of swaras and identify, perhaps, there is some unique bhava.

[sureshvv]

Bhava is present even in a single note. The right antara gandharam or chathusruthi dhaivatam can cause goosebumps.

And phrases are nothing but a sequence of swaras (with gamakas). Nothing more!

[shankarank]

And what all produce svaras? Keyboard does? Piano does? I seriously need to check the TNS concert again! Yes that was convincing academically - like they say clinically cured for patients!

Oboe ? The last one is a hot one to get scholarships @ ivy leagues. With UNESCO tag if Oboe-ists can do a Obasvaram that might add teeth to their App-ing!

[sankark]

Bhava is present even in a single note. The right antara gandharam or shatsruthi dhaivatam can cause goosebumps.

errr, right. But we are talking about the rAga bhAvam, not swara bhAvam?

Ultimately, the absence of swaram and rAgam also has a bhAvam. Silence that can have its own infinite bhAvams the human mind can conjure

[varsha]

After hearing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMxARASLlI

wonderful !!
thanks

[sureshvv]

Looks like we are arguing in circles. Are you in the group that says Rishabhapriya has no raga bhavam? That only certain combination of swaras have Raga bhavam?

I dont feel this is correct. If you able to identify the raga, that is proof enough that it has the required bhavam. How much an artiste can squeeze out of it is up to their creativity & the audience's patience.

[shankarank]

After hearing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKMxARASLlI

wonderful !!
thanks

He said something to the effect of (I have to translate from a very slang Tamil) the typical background noise in sabhAs is so high that quiet singing is simply not appreciated.

....And furthermore why Carnatic music sounds so different in home practice sessions than on the stage.

A acoustically poor Auditorium , with a non line-in recording - that might capture some of it's flaws compared to home:

https://youtu.be/a6E_ngecM1I?t=1645

The Mridangist is run of the mill concert grade ( like Builder's grade home ware they say in the U.S) , dead wood! If you listen to the earlier home recording referred to at the top of the post, you will see that the faster paced version of the AAS flows in 3s somewhat.

Somebody like Arun Prakash will take cognizance - but his hand has a mind of it's own. Why did god not give him a stronger "nam"? Should he switch to "kappi" Mridangam ?

The playing should tumble down in 3s for the most part , and keep a 3-ish gait by compensating nicely for a 4 based tALam.

the pUrvangam of pallavi tries to express a symmetry which is much more palpable ( irrespective of the syllable widths) - like a 6, 6 including kArvai.

kal.yA . . Na (6) like takadhimi (2nd speed) , takhadhimi (slow 1st speed) , rA..mA . . . takadhimi (2nd speed) , takhadhimi (slow 1st speed) !

If this artiste is singing this season, would like to see Arun accompany her and be webcast with exactly this song. And would like to hear somewhere in between dead wood and the mind of his own! As even the dead wood of the tradition provides some values here and there!

[sankark]

Looks like we are arguing in circles. Are you in the group that says Rishabhapriya has no raga bhavam? That only certain combination of swaras have Raga bhavam?

I dont feel this is correct. If you able to identify the raga, that is proof enough that it has the required bhavam. How much an artiste can squeeze out of it is up to their creativity & the audience's patience.

Unique.

[Narayanan NB]

Looks like we are arguing in circles. Are you in the group that says Rishabhapriya has no raga bhavam? That only certain combination of swaras have Raga bhavam?

I dont feel this is correct. If you able to identify the raga, that is proof enough that it has the required bhavam. How much an artiste can squeeze out of it is up to their creativity & the audience's patience.

Unique.

Ragams like Rishabapriya are identifiable atleast to me only by their arohanam and avarohanam. Even though ragam like Charukeshi or Keeravani are lakshana ragams i can associate lot of Bhavam with these. When it comes to a ragam like Rishabapriya or Neetimati I find them theoretical. That's why I wanted to know if I am missing some perspective in Rishabapriya.

[sureshvv]

They are theoretical only because they have not been put into practice enough. These ragas are sung as submain sometimes. The truly adventurous like G.Srikanth take them up for main. Now where is this guy? Hope I can hear him during this season.

[shankarank]

ragam like Rishabapriya or Neetimati I find them theoretical

There is a theorooetical explanation - that there is no vAdi - samvAdi pair between r-g and d-n in rishabhapriya and neetimati , save r-p in rishbhapriya and R2-P , M2-N3 in neetimati - which is not effective due to vivAdi!

[shankarank]

Whew. Flew so much above my head, it might as well not exist for me. Though very interesting to read to figure it out - hope to get there sometime soon, in this lifetime. Someone needs to write a kArikA or tIpIkA or bhAshyam on this visrAnti for shankaranks visrAntisUtrams.

Guess what! I will give you a retaliation or compliment however you take it. You are hereby ordained to attend all concerts of Car Driver Jay and his student Deep and report into the reviews section this season - chase them wherever they are !

You will qualify for a Prize in the next Rasikas meet : svAmi tuptupananda Screw Driver Giri award!

[sureshvv]

shankarank... You are hanging out here too long. You better go out and water the plants or something. You have started channeling all the rasikas personalities

[sankark]

Whew. Flew so much above my head, it might as well not exist for me. Though very interesting to read to figure it out - hope to get there sometime soon, in this lifetime. Someone needs to write a kArikA or tIpIkA or bhAshyam on this visrAnti for shankaranks visrAntisUtrams.

Guess what! I will give you a retaliation or compliment however you take it. You are hereby ordained to attend all concerts of Car Driver Jay and his student Deep and report into the reviews section this season - chase them wherever they are !

You will qualify for a Prize in the next Rasikas meet : svAmi tuptupananda Screw Driver Giri award!

is that to understand visrAnti, or are you punishing me ? And that too not only with original but the clone too? Original - perhaps one. Clone - thanks, but no thanks (original irukka clone kavarndhaRRu). Grew out of that music a while ago and am not missing it.

[sankark]

They are theoretical only because they have not been put into practice enough. These ragas are sung as submain sometimes.

Could happen.

submain - at that too many are drab affairs.

Or it requires a particular ability from the listener that I don't have.

[shankarank]

shankarank... You are hanging out here too long. You better go out and water the plants or something. You have started channeling all the rasikas personalities

You all's humor mill is regaling me so much - I could not avoid - especially when my personality faces some challenges. Thanks for the advice.

[shankarank]

They are theoretical only because they have not been put into practice enough. These ragas are sung as submain sometimes.

Could happen.

submain - at that too many are drab affairs.

Or it requires a particular ability from the listener that I don't have.

With Laya rasanai and laya conscious sangeetham , even a 4 note rAga will sound effective! If you heard that hamsanadam (ok 5 notes I know!) kriti that I posted, hamsanadam has only that much to sing. Rest is virtuosity!

Hamsanadam replaced the No 3 pantuvaraLi and pUrvikalyaNi for a prati-madyama interlude and went to a main spot now. enna koDumai! What travesty?

Artiste needs discrimination and dilgence to know which rAgAs to stretch in slow pace, which ones to sing with tight rhythm. eda izhukknam, eda geTTiya pADaNumunnu oru vivastai vENum. ella ragattaiyum Brinda Mukta stylla izhutta vElai seyyAtu!

The only further logical conclusion that a 4 note rAgA can be taken to is to sing a line of pallavi with 3 notes, once, and then leave it percussionists to do the rest - if only there is rasanai

[sankark]

Ok is hamsanadam a 5 swaram (certainly not note ) or 6 swaram ragam?

http://www.karnatik.com/c1459.shtml the ArOhana avarOhanam given there has a dhaivatam which is missing in the video you have posted.

[shankarank]

D3 is used sparingly - so I did not count it. Most of the svara prastarams won't have it. Arahonam / Avarohanam should not have it by general practice

Else d3 for dvamsanAdam!

[shankarank]

Original - perhaps one. Clone - thanks, but no thanks (original irukka clone kavarndhaRRu).

I can give you some solace if you have to pick one. With the clone you will get Unni level sound production at least!! . So you are better off with the clone!

[sureshvv]

I cannot imagine Rishabapriya as a distinct ragam. Can you quote specific phrases or handling of certain swarams which gave it a distinct identity of Rishabapriya?

You must have listened to Gananayadesika?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_G-_oxPm_4

[varsha]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6E_nge ... .be&t=1645

The only thing that such perseverance of an Art form proves is.
The listener is just not a congruent part of the scheme of things.
It may be a modern aspect of commodifying , sustaining thru finance etc.
But
It is always between the Artist and his Art
Thanks again.For the leads.

[sankark]

Let me make a very controversial statement - listening to both B-M's rendition of Aligithe (Huseni) and Balamurali's rendition of Aligithe, I feel the latter beats the former hands down. I feel, being a Telugu person (from the Godavari delta, no less), BMK was able to convey the emotion of the padam better than B-M, who focussed more on the musical aspects of the composition.

Finally got around to listen to both the tracks in YT & archive.org. And I get the feel that BMK is taking a heavy CM into light territory (and at places 0:08, 0:30 @ vA of vAni, 0:59 @ O of bOni over dramatic effects) whereas BM maintain the heaviness of CM.

On BM track - who are the percussionists? Distinctly unique playing that hugs the contour of the lyrics but maintains its own distance too.

[shankarank]

I will have to hear this again to recall, but in the BMK rendition there is a small gap that he creates for himself to negotiate something with UKS ( in the UKS accompanied version). He is a pure time traveller without the baggage

[shankarank]

The listener is just not a congruent part of the scheme of things.

Only thing you can add to that is that that is preceded by the Grand Father/Mother and the innocent kid.

May be why LGJ referred to the G in his name - Gopala Iyer as my Guru and Krishnan's Grandfather . Some people interpreted that as he definitely saying he is way and well beyond his Guru ( Sorry father!)

This year's SK should have no qualms - he can say my Grand Father - Sri Narayana Iyengar