Ratnangi and Todi

[srikant1987]

I haven't listened to any piece in Ratnangi (as far as I remember, at least).

But I have listened to lots of Todi, and as I play the violin, I could find out easily that the gAndhAram of Todi goes below a palpable boundary for the sAdhAraNa gAndhAram.

That being the case, wouldn't the rAgams become hard to distinguish in a slightly fast-paced composition?

[rajesh_rs]

I haven't heard any piece in Ratnangi either and often, when I play guitar, I use G1 rather than the G2 of Thodi to play it (and it sounds correct when I am sliding G-M or R-G). While I don't know if this is correct technique, it does help me get the basic sound of Thodi out of the instrument (to play fretless would be better in this situation but I would get gamakas all wrong).

Technically, yes, it would be difficult to distinguish Ratnangi from Thodi (like Sarasangi and Charukesi).

[vasanthakokilam]

srikant: Just for other's benefit who may not know the relationship between ratnangi and thodi, could you edit your post and add that context please. That will help the flow of the thread. Thanks.

[rajesh_rs]

srikant: Just for other's benefit who may not know the relationship between ratnangi and thodi, could you edit your post and add that context please. That will help the flow of the thread. Thanks.

I think I have a fair idea of what srikant's question is about. tODi and ratnAngi are both melakarta ragas and therefore contain all seven swaras in their ArohaNa and avarohaNa structures.

tODi's ArOhaNA sequence is

S R1 G2 M1 P D1 N2 S (and symmetrically for avarOhaNa)

The trouble is, the gAndhAram used here isn't the usual gAndhAram (sAdhAraNa gAndharam) that's used in kharaharapriyA, for example. It is a lower note than that, in between the shuddha and sAdharaNa gAndharams. Therefore, when playing/singing the rAga one tends to use a note that's in between G2 and G1(R2).

This interferes with the scale of ratnAngi, which has the following ArohaNa scheme:

S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N2 S (and symmetrically for avarOhaNa). Note the shuddha gAndharam used here.

I personally haven't heard any compositions in ratnAngi and have heard several in tODi, so I have reason to believe that ratnAngi never developed as a popular rAgam for this reason.

Coming to the question, how does one distinguish between the two rAgas when listening?

I know for a fact that in the tODi prayogas, the use of the panchamam is limited. Typically, it is sparingly used in most compositions.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Rajesh.

Let me summarize it using the Higher and Lower designation of the pUrvAnga. Thodi: S, low Ri, low G, low M, P. Ratnangi: S, low Ri, high Ri, low M, P

First, as has been described many times in this forum by experts that ragas that have exactly the same swaras sound vastly different. It is due to prayoga differences as Rajesh mentioned and also gamakas used, what note is given prominence, how that note is approached etc. That itself is a good enough answer from a raga aesthetics and bhava point of view.

Second, thodi gamaka on Low G does oscillate between High Ri and Low M but the key word is 'oscillate', never steady on High Ri. If you want to play a non oscillating low G in high speed prayogas, it better be not a steady High Ri.

Third, Low Ri and High Ri are vivadhi. So one of these swaras would be 'colored' quite differently in CM using the standard 'vivadi execution techniques'.

[uday_shankar]

The gandharam in ratnangi, G1, is always plain/flat. That being the case, there will never be a doubt about its identity. The gandharam in Todi, G2 is mostly oscillated and occassionally flat. In either case, there is no confusing it with G1 and hence no confusion with ratnangi.

I believe most ragas with R1-G1 combination (eg..asaveri) have a flat G1. The one exception that readily comes to mind is varali, where the G1 is oscillated. This actually leads to confusion and I have heard seasoned Carnatic masters play something that approaches G2 for varali.

Great masters over the ages have pondered and continue to do so in the present generation to give each raga a distinct identity (although I am not a firm believer that all the melakartas are meaningful ragas ). Which note to oscillate is often the foremost determinant. Take for example shri and madhyamavati - in shree, R2 is always flat and in madhyamavati R2 is always oscilated.

Bottom line: no confusion between ratnangi and todi under any circumstance.

[saigeetha karthik]

the discussion regarding ratnangi and thodi was really informative, for i am a learner of veena now at the stage of learning varnams. actually this clarified a doubt that was nagging me for a long time. i love music and listen a lot but my voice is no good for singing. so i tried my hand in veena and when i was learning sarali and janta i was thinking how easy it is to play and the swara sthanams are fixed in veena all you have to do is to pluck it to produce what you want. while learning geetams, i learped how by giving gamaka in a lower note you can produce the next higher note and so on. recently i was learning varnam in saveri , janya of maya malava goula and when i was browsing i came to know that some of the notes in saveri like rishabam, gandaram and thaivatham are little less than that in the maya malava goulai. [am i correct, or i am waiting to be corrected} but very sorry to register that i was not told this very important aspect while teaching.
same way i have another doubt, that is, while playing abhogi varnam,janya of karaharapriya, evari bhoda, the gandharam is played in r2 by giving gamakam in r2 in ascending but while coming down it is played in g2.
can anybody throw more light regarding this?
i thank each and everyone who took part in the discussion regarding ratnangi and thodi, because just a few days back i asked my teacher, 'is there anything that is in between two swara shanas in the veena say for eg r2 and g2
and i got the answer from this discussion only. so once again i would like to thank you all and i wish this continues.

[mankuthimma]

http://www.mediafire.com/?031om1pda9vuv

only four tracks in Rathnangi - collected over decades . one each by bmk, kalyanraman, s rajam and ost.

[vs_manjunath]

Coolji- Thanks for your tracks. Will enjoy all the tracks!

[prashant]

Smt. Vedavalli's rendition of taruNam iDE dayAnidhE in ratnAngi by kOTiSwara ayyar is available somewhere on Sangeethapriya.

[MaheshS]

Coolji - Don't you have Rathnangi played by S Balachander? The melakartha series concert?

[mankuthimma]

thats commercial ... :devil: