sangitha kalanidhi 2024

[arasi]

Thanks Mohan for chiming in
Yes, the speech by the veteran was interesting, no surprise there. A tad long, but should we say welcoming? A positive atmosphere prevailed, with TMK zeroing in on giving a solid concert.

Wonder if Nick was there...

[sam]

@arasi
Thank you.
The first kruthi in salaga bairavj, the saint composer censures people who prefer pomp and status, worldly pleasures etc . Why was it chosen by TMK?
Surprisingly, on looking up the meaning for both the bilahary ' dorakuna' and the varaaLi ' kanakana' kruthis of Thyagaraja, they are about the decoration of the idol, as I understand. Short shrift to Dikshitar 's subramanyaaya'.
The choice of the first two mentioned could not have been but pre'planned.
Any clues? What is the iconoclast trying to demonsfrate?

[arasi]

Pop psychology, that too coming from ancients like me, will only make the learned ones here a bit agitated!

Still, my response to your impressions: male or female, our childhood memories about the gods are mostly visual: the decorated gods in processions, the rich stimuli of color and the fragrance of flowers too. The sound of chants stay with us as well. Also perhaps of our mothers or grandparents doing puja at home--singing too at times. The aesthetics of it all make their impressions on us.
We see TMK in many differently printed shirts and woven shawls on stage, displaying his aesthetics. In this concert, he wore a white dhoti and shirt, the traditional form of attire of a CM vidwAn!

Enough of my impressions!

[Nick H]

Wonder if Nick was there...

Missed it. We had booked a trip before knowing the February RS-Hall program.

[sam]

It is very difficult to find CM kruthis unrelated to hindu gods and the pooja pattern. The theme of the bilahary and varàLi kruthis, would make very little connect for the kuppam people whom he wants to win over to CM,. ..Not only that..not even to the younger generation of the 'hindu' youth, obc, sc and st youth...Even to youth of brahm Households..
Much less to Christians and very much less to youth of islam.
.
Please note...the Reference is to lyrics of the kduthis chosen. NOT THE TUNES. and singing..
This may be true even for most who attend his concerts. So, they attend for his music. Some even among cm fans may not like his style of singing.
.
If atall, he wanted to sing , he could have chosen javalis, thillanas, padams
And romantic songs..extolling the charms of women..but all the javalis, it might be noted are by women on a male and not viceversa,
So by TMK standard, all CM is misogynist.
.
Only HM has a mix of males pining for their sweethearts.

So CM is strictly not for males singing about women. as swwthearts.

Best left to HM and film songs.
.
But the same kruthis of the trinity and padams even, when played by instrumentalists, either solo or orchestra, will surely take the essence of CM to all irrespective of caste,, subsects, religion , language and even nationality .
Some of the pure CM compositions of Ilayaraja achieve that purpose.

While akkarai subbulakshmi sisters and ranjani gaayarhri sisters, are eminently suitable for such propogation of CM, as
they are violinits ,TMK being a vocalist alone, cannot do that.
.
Akkarai sisters have very good exposure to the best of CM, HM and even classical WM.

So does Ravikiran.

.A naagaswaram player can take CM if the highest qualty to even the socially and eConomically deprived sections of people.

akkaeai sisfers and ragaa sjsters are trained violisits and vocalists.

Akkarai vijayalakshmi, the usual violinist for TMK does not share the views if TMK.
...
Raara veNu gopabala

Is the delightful bilahari swarajathi, less of CM , when rendered by Corporation band?
.

.

[MaamiAtHeart]

I listed to the full concert, twice. I absolutely loved it. TMK was the full package - perfect Shruthi alignment, powerful voice, Bhava soaked renditions, very clear enunciation of lyrics. My favorite part of the concert was when he lingered on the Kaminchi prema charanam in kanakanaruchira and sang with deep feeling, drawing the audience into his anubhavam.

Mods - if possible, could you please take the messages related to this concert and create a new post in the concert review section? This concert is freely available on YouTube and the detailed reviews and comments by other learned forum members are very useful to help beginners like me appreciate the art better.

[arasi]

Sam says:
So, CM is strictly not for males singing about women as sweethearts.

I would say that on this very forum, it was brought up years ago by Arun and he threw a challenge as it were, asking me if a (so-called) composer like me could take it up and write songs for men to sing of their love for women. I arrived at a number of songs and within months, Suryaprakash sang them on a CD. It is called engirundO vandAi. I was inspired to think then that since there are a number of male bharathanatyam dancers these days, they might perhaps pick them up. I haven't heard of any performing them so far. The songs are not limited to young love alone but that of men of all ages who uphold women who walk life's path with them.

[sam]

It is universally accepted that CM is devotion oriented. And all the kruthis are about the gods and goddesses of Hindu pantheon. Even kshetragya padams.

It will be a sacrilege to write a kruthi, of Siva longing for Parvathi, vishnu for Laksmi , subramanya for vaLLi, or krishna for rukmani, ,Raama fir Sita..
.
Thank God, no traditional composer took that dubious direction, in the name of creativity.
.
The tradition is that Siva burnt manmatha for for disturbing his concentration.
.
Healthy tradition. Let us preserve the sanctity of carnatic music.
Even TMK may not sing such songs.
.
Dharmapuri Subbarayar, who taught jaavaLis to veeNa Dhanam is said to have indirectly composed songs praising a lady.
Have to checkup the translations. May not be about any deity.

Royal Carpet Carnatic Composers: Dharmapuri Subbaraaya Aiyyar

https://www.karnatik.com/co1044.shtml


.


.

[arasi]

I see. Well, I am glad then that no one took up the songs to sing or dance to, then!
By the way, they are not about the love of the gods, but about humans!

Ideas and tastes differ, I do concede. Even the great Subrahmanya Bharathi erred, then!
No, I do not want to continue on this subject--that too here. This thread after all is about the Sangeetha Kalanidhi award. I do request the mods to delete the posts on this unnecessary departure from the topic and stop the deviation right now
Since we do not seem to have a lounge now, that's the best way to go about it, I suppose.

[sam]

Watch "Parulanamata (Javali) - Carnatic Classical Vocal - T.M.Krishna" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/IvMM0s6FJG8?si=NFpXsJqbizJRn4FA
..
Lyrics & meaning-of Parulanna mata - rasikas.org
https://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1461
..
https://viddev.wordpress.com/2017/04/05 ... ubbarayar/
(Ramnad Krishnan rendition given here)
.
It appears that doyens like Semmankudi,, Ramnad krushnan sang this .
.
I searched for Dharmapuri Subbarayar in composers section. Could not find.
.
Though no specific god name is mentioned, many of these javalis seem to have been kearnt and renderred by leading vocalists.
.
Kaatru veLiyidai by Bharathi is there kfxourse and also a few more. But he was a poet. Not a composer. He just hinted the the raag for some of the poe s and even sang them but it was not notated by him.
It belongs more to film music genre.

..
The points being stressed are very much germane to the topic of the thread. TMK wants to take CM to people of all religions, castes and occupation. But he is constrained by the standard and accepted theme of devotion to godhead.
He can sing vaLLalar poems set to suitable tunes.
But do we really need music composers ( music directors) any more, when cenema and Tv and youtube have spread so much?....

[SabashBale]

What TMK may take years or decades to 'equalize' by all his and many other people's non-musical efforts, has taken only seconds here:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sLkr0Whf0cA

[dhanurasi]

What TMK may take years or decades to 'equalize' by all his and many other people's non-musical efforts, has taken only seconds here:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sLkr0Whf0cA

This clip of Ranjani Gayathri's concert in a Keral temple has gained a huge Social Media visibility after the SK news. Kerala has a more diverse audience for classical music than Chennai or any part of Tamilnadu.

Disgusting to see attacking posts saying that the lady was made to sit on the floor due to casteist or a class discrimnation. That's what activism creates: opinions without knowledge of even basic facts.

[sam]

In the article cited below, TMK mentions a few points , which veteran experts in the forum can endorse or refute..
.

https://m.thewire.in/article/the-arts/c ... -tradition

By
TMKRISHNA
Quote
..
. is also essential for readers to understand that Carnatic music has a concepItt called varnamettu.

This refers to a standardised compositional tune for a raga. This tune covers the entire composition from start to finish with minor embellishments or accommodations made in view of changed lyrics.

This is considered an accepted melody that encapsulates the identity of the raga in compositional form

. Hence, one tune in a given raga is used repeatedly by numerous composers and tunesmiths.

‘Nannu brovamani cheppave’ by Bhadrachala Ramadasa,

‘Kathaya Kathaya Madhavam’ by Narayana Tirtha,

‘Nambikettavarillavo rangayya ninna’ by Purandaradasa

are all rendered identically in raga Kalyani.
.
The svarajati ‘Emandayanara’ in huseni raga has multiple siblings!

‘Upacharamulanu’,
‘Janani mamava’,
‘Yarukku ponnambalam’
open similarly.

Tyagaraja’s ‘Manasu svadhina’ and Dikshitar’s ‘Akshaya linga vibho’, both in Shankarabharanam, have identical varnamettu openings.

‘Bhakta parayana’ of Svati Tirunal also follows the same Shankarabharanam varnamettu.

There are many more examples that substantiate my point and I have merely touched the surface, but I will stop here.

Quote ends.

[girish_a]

When Carnatic composers applied Varnamettu, their intentions were benign.

There are no such benign intentions in a predatory desert cult with a long history of appropriating and extinguishing cultures and civilizations.

Their experiments in Carnatic music and Bharatanatyam are inculturation attempts.

So TMK's justifications in Wire article should be thrown into the trash can.

[sam]

PaapaNaasam sivan is known to have used many Thyagaraja kruthis retaining the kruthi structure but changing the lyrics. He is hence known as tamil thyagayya. Are we to throw all PS kruthis into the gutter?

[girish_a]

PaapaNaasam sivan is known to have used many Thyagaraja kruthis retaining the kruthi strzcture but changing the lyrjcs. He is hence known as tamil thyafayya. Are we to throw all PS kruthis into the gutter?

PS belonged to the Hindu tradition. There's no cross cultural appropriation involved here. That said, I don't think changing lyrics is a good practice even within a tradition.

[sam]

I am no admirer of TMK.
However, are not CM And HM using the same melody system.?
Was not venkatamahin himself, a student of HM.?
Did not Gopalakrusha Barathy learn and use Hm ragas?

I am told that Purandaradasa has given us some keertans on religious harmony?

There is another para.
Quote
.let me remind you that Muttusvami Dikshitar transformed ‘God save the gracious king/queen’ to ‘santatam pahimam Sangita shyamale’,where God is most definitely Christian and Dikshitar’s Sangita shyamale, the Hindu goddess of the arts. Dikshitar allowed the ‘other’ to find home within his own being, something we should rejoice and learn from.

Quote ends
.
Leaving alone the political aspect, is TMK right in his examples?

[shankarank]

We should not focus much on who is taking any musical idea. It is more about what values , view points those people espouse viz-a-viz ourselves. Our response should be "if you have something to say about me, I have the same privilege to respond back and say something about you!".

As regards santatam pAhimAm etc., those guys landed in "my land" and were about to loot all with lock stock and barrel (pun intended again), and I cannot take a musical idea that is public domain once it is in the air?

Our tradition and languages do not have "quotation Marks"! So that is the rule in this land! And any scholarly work or other that is based on Indian traditional knowledge , or a music performed in this land of ours also need not be glorified with "Quotation Marks" - meaning dutifully acknowledge the source.

I already gave the example of a remote village community if they adopt a tune from a raga like Arabhi already adopted in a movie song.

Also as regards "tradition" and "traditional music", ours is not religious music in that , it doesn't have any "fixed dogmas". It has a Siksha method and some traditional continuity, We need to twist their language give it back to them you see. It is Europe during "dark" period that destroyed all their classical culture. So "classical" now means dead.

Don't let them to get into sahitya and meaning in a public debate! That belongs to a separate Guru-Sishya Parampara on how that should be explained. Even Grammar is sacred in this tradition. It is for the traditional paramparas to interpret sAhitya in the right sense.

Whoever wants to make some other "lyric" as they call it, let them do so, but don't talk about us or why we have not sung this and that or not admitting this and that.

[sam]

It is about taking an entire kruthi and substituting different words either in the same language or in a different language.
An example may be the film song , 'kaathal kani rasame'. Music by G.Ramanathan based on Naadha thanumanisam by Thyagaraja.
If the words had been of the theme of the original, what is there to complain?

Nagumomu song in naagaswaram took the tune to every hamlet .
No lyrics.
So many of KBS and MMD took classical ragas to the common people through films and they had very good lyrics also.
Mokshamu galata has been sung in telugu as is.
I think Banumathi has sung nagumomu in a film.
Why should we object?

..

[shankarank]

SrI Papanasam Sivan's descendants may sue for royalty or plagiarization in this case, as he himself did with Ariyakudi once . Well I am kidding, as I don't know how copy right laws work or expire in film world!

In your case in general read carefully when I said "don't talk about us", you think that is even a possibility? So there is no way they can take the tune.

[sam]

Recently, I happened to see a talk by TMK, about raaga music in CM, to students in some university in USA.
He spoke about sruthis, swara sthaanams, gamakam, Venkatamahin,
Sampoorna and asampoorna meLa systems, Govindacharya, etc.


"Raga Music & Its Essence by TM Krishna with Akkarai Subhalakshmi & Praveen Sparsh"
Georgea Tech University.

https://youtu.be/p-FHlzMZez8?si=Wh66BSCqgGzmjHZn
..

.
He was saying that each natural raaga has a spirit and soul of its own and not just a question of meLa number and ascending and descending notes.

He was tilting at windmill

He was needlessly berating the sampoorna meLa system, though, I believe that it is the defacto system today.

I think, it was meant for foreign students and second generation diaspora. in USA.

In Chennai, or Bangalore or Hyderaad,
in any sabha, it would sound trite..

Nowadays, neither good voice, nor good style of singing, good stage presence free from over-gesticulations,, nor sensible ideology, nor sense of proportion .
.
Finally, not even the humility and grace to decline the award .
More deserving candidates can be found.
Not too late.
.

[shankarank]

I did see that in entirety! And that will be an interesting discussion if it were to be carried into the sadas. Not sure how many experts in the committee are prepared to have this debate, mindset wise.

If it were to be carried to logical conclusion, then it should result in a decision that Karaharapriya, harikAmbOdhi and most of all naTabhairavi are not ragas. They are all sitting there masquerading using the laya built around them!

And the last one naTabhairavi, if needs Dr MLV to be the pioneer in its exposition, ipso facto it is not a rAgA. Pure virtuosity and skill.

In the set of 6 - san-kara-todi-kal-hari-naTa , we have 3 remaining as rAGAs. Rest of them barring a few like KiravAni, are simply concert toolkit - kutcheri craft.

Something like gamanASramam had to give way to something like pURvikalyANi - imagine that!

And you still want to call Indian music simply rAgA music? Not the southern music.

SrI T.M Krishna has sung sUma SAyaka many times and Dr. Nina Prasad had an elaborate presentation on it in nATya kala conference. In terms of Indian culture and its representation, this RAga and the piece would be enough. Highest form of rasa! It is a naya rAga full of sensuality representing the "jiva" or subject. The vaRNam gait itself is majestic and will represent the Lord PadmanAbha himself. A vibrant Mridangam accompaniment amplifies the majesty inherent in the setting of the composition. The slow winding gait, embodies his Ananta Sayanam. The music itself speaks the bhava of the vARNam.

This is carnaticized Hindustan kApi as noted by expert musicians. So what? Philosophically it is a rAgA in the true essence of what is meant by a "rAgA" since ancient times.

Beyond sahAna and bEgaDa , this rAgA even if it is indirect achievement, nevertheless is a big accomplishment of Carnatic music. Four hours of karaharapriya from (tEr) muTTI to (tEr) muTTI ( muTTikU muTTI) will not equal this 10 minute presentation.

[sam]

As we know, then existing ragas were grouped into the 72 MK meLas...depending on the notes in ascending and descending modes.
Strict Sanchaaram and gamakam rules also have been laid down. And attempts have been made to provide
Western style staff notations.
Later, other composers came up with new combinations.
When does a scale become a raaga?

Thyaagaraja is credited with creating Harikambodhi raaga from the MK notes., through his kruthis..

TMK lecture did not shed any light on that.

It is a topic for experts in musicology. Let us leave it at that.
Let the Sadas decide,

[ram1999]

Looks like the issue has lost its steam. A very few musicians openly expressed their reservations - RG / SR / Ravikiran / DS / VH / Palghat Ramprasad / MSS Grandson. It was just 5-6 artists who were vocal about it and withdrew from performing at the MA and a couple returned the award.

The whole thing has now lost steam completely. Perhaps due to the might of the Academy and its affiliation with the left / DMK party. Quite sad that there were only a handful to protest. That shows how gullible and fearful are the bhramin folks and the lack of unity to support the few that expressed resevations / concerns !!!

[sam]

Ram 1999
You are right Sir.
The community is vulnerable in chennai and generally in the state. This is not so in the other southern states. As shankarank rightly observed, it is not theism vs atheism but targets the community. The poor among the community will be affected. That is why , the muted voice.

[ram1999]

It is quite a sad state.

Even a few members in this group express a neutral view or support the happenings in the name of good music being delivered. What is good music is yet to be desired !!
It is also a fad to be left centric voice for everything in the name of being broad minded.
Total hogwash !!!

[sankark]

"Raga Music & Its Essence by TM Krishna with Akkarai Subhalakshmi & Praveen Sparsh"
Georgea Tech University.

https://youtu.be/p-FHlzMZez8?si=Wh66BSCqgGzmjHZn
..

I think I posted this link a while ago - specifically to call out the s'bharaNam being sa pa ri sa segment/phrase.

On mELa, I think he hits the point home beautifully; theory constructed and then trying to shoehorn the ragams that existed before a codification came into picture and then theory tries to rule the roost is, in fact silly.

https://youtu.be/p-FHlzMZez8?t=6310 and here a bit of arrogance comes through despite his calling out "humility" to music but not 200 years (or X years) of tradition. and a bit of unresolvable tensions he broaches at this point of the lecdem me thinks: what does he mean when he says "raga moves"? does taking a reethigowlai phrase into anandabhairavi means raga moves or is it a phrase within a certain raga has so much "give" and different glides within that overarching phrase/moorchana? what does then grammar mean? these are certain undefinable phrases/words that complicates more than clarifies. ofcourse one can always handwave that it is all "evolving" and the old is cast away and the new emerges.

[sam]

As TMK talked about Raaga system and its evolution, the following material from srinivasaraos blog series on music of India may be useful.


..Karnataka samgita

1.1. The Music of South India was referred to as Karnataka Sangita, perhaps, even slightly prior to 12th century. King Nanyadeva, a prince of a later branch of the Rastrakuta (Karnataka) dynasty who reigned in Mithtili (Nepal) between 1097 and 1133 A.D. in his Sarasvathi-hrdaya-alamkara-hara mentions Karnata-pata tanas.

Further, the Kalyana Chalukya King Someshwara III (1127-1139 AD) in his Manasollasa (also called Abhjilashitarta Chintamani) calls the Music of his times as Karnata Sangita . This, perhaps, is the earliest work where the name Karnataka Sangita is specifically mentioned .

Later, Thulaja the Nayak ruler of Tanjavuru in his ‘Sangita saramruta’ (1729 – 1735) calls the Music that was in vogue at his time as Karnataka Samgita. That was, perhaps, because the authorities and the Lakshana-granthas he quoted in his work were authored by Kannada-speaking scholars.

Later, Sri Subbarama Dikshitar in his ‘Sangita-sampradaya-pradarshini’ (1904) refers to Sri Purandaradasa as ‘Karnataka Sangita Pitamaha’ (father of Karnataka Music).

The contributions of the Kannada scholars in terms of – the Lakshna-grathas that articulated the theoretical aspects of the Music; defining the concept of classifying the Ragas under various Mela-s; refining the elements of Music such as Taala; coining fresh Music terms; and, systematizing the teaching methods , particularly in the early stages of learning – had been truly enormous.

Texts

1.2. One of the reasons for naming the Dakshinadi as Karnataka Samgita could be that in the initial stages of its development and even in later times up to the 18th century the texts delineating the Grammar (Lakshana –grantha) of Music were authored mostly by Kannada speaking Music-scholars (Lakshanika). The texts were, however, written in Sanskrit and not in Kannada.

The notable among such texts (Lakshana–grantha) in question, mention could be made of

: – Manasollasa (also called Abhjilashitarta Chintamani ) ascribed to Kalyana Chalukya King Someshwara III (12th century) ;

: – Sangita-Cudamani of Jagadekamalla (1138 to 1150 AD) – son of king Someshwara , author of Manasollasa;

:- Sangita-sara of Sage Sri Vidyaranya (1320 – 1380) which perhaps was the first text to group (Mela ) Ragas according to their parent scale;

: – Sad-raga-chandrodaya of Pundarika Vittala (1583 approx);

:- Kalanidhi of Catura Kallinatha (Ca,1430), a reputed commentary on on Sarangadeva’s Sangita-ratnakara ; he was in the court of Immadi Devaraya ( aka Mallikarjuna) the King of Vijayanagar (1446-65);

: – Swaramela-Kalanidhi by Ramamatya (Ca.1550) a poet-scholar in the court of Vijayanagar ;

: – Sangita Sudha, attributed to Govindacharya (aka. Govinda Dikshita, Ca 1630);

: – Chaturdandi-Prakasika (a landmark text in Karnataka Sangita) by Venkatamakhin, son of Govinda Dikshita (ca. 1635);

: – Sangraha Chudamani
by Govindacharya (late 17th – early 18th century), which expanded on Venkatamakhi’s work;

:- and,

the Ragalakshanam ( early 18th century) of Muddu Venkatamakhin (maternal grandson of Venkatamakhin) which makes a drastic shift in the concept of Mela, identifies the Raga by the position of its notes (Svara-sthana) and characterizes a Raga by its Aroha and Avaroha ( ascending and descending notes).

Mela

1.3. The practice of grouping (Mela) the Ragas according to their parent scale, it said, was initiated by Sage Vidyaranya in his Sangita-sara (14th century).
Govinda Dikshita (who reverently addresses Sri Vidyarana as: Sri Charana) confirms this in his Sangita-sudha (1614). Sri Vidyaranya classified about 50 Ragas into 15 groups (Mela).

Mela is a Kannada term meaning collection or group; and it is still in use (eg. sammelana – is meeting or conference). Sri Vidyaranya ‘s work on Melakarta system was followed up and improved upon in later times by other Kannada–speaking scholars.

For instance; Ramamatya, following Sri Vidyaranya, in his Svara-mela-kalanidhi classified the then known Ragas into 20 Melas. His classification of Melas was based on five criteria (Lakshana): Amsa (predominant note); Graha (initial note); Nyasa (final note); Shadava (sixth note); and, Audava (pentatonic structure).

Ramamatya was thereafter followed by: Pundarika Vittala (16th century); Venkatamakhin (17th century); and his grandson Muddu Venkatamakhin (18th century).

[sam]

Excerpts from EPW article
....
In September 2017, I heard the Carnatic vocalist TM Krishna sing to a packed auditorium in Mumbai’s cosmopolitan locality of Bandra. The 800-odd-seat St Andrews auditorium usually features English plays, rarely Indian classical music. The music that day was pure Carnatic, the majority of the listeners not South Indian.
Given Carnatic music’s traditional appeal to a narrow band, it was a stunning moment for this esoteric genre.
."TM Krishna:
Chaturdasa Ragamalika.
Violin by akkarai subbulakshmi

https://youtu.be/gPLyGjXcSkU?si=j2VboTzbkHtLSx0e

..

[thanjavooran]

Shri sam,
Excellent. Many thanks for the share.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
20 04 2024

[ramamatya]

It is quite a sad state.

Even a few members in this group express a neutral view or support the happenings in the name of good music being delivered. What is good music is yet to be desired !!
It is also a fad to be left centric voice for everything in the name of being broad minded.
Total hogwash !!!

True. I've noticed that one user in particular continues to promote tmk in some way, keeping the issue alive while appearing as if he speaks against him. You can readily guess who. That's annoying. I'm not sure what the game is. I'm repulsed when folks act smart.

Btw, Rasikas forum is also fizzling out. Rasikas are tired, I guess.

[ram1999]

Well articulated - as usual...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d92zVc ... dWdsYWs%3D