Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Oct 2007, 22:45

But did identifying sruti really help in identifying this raga or swaras? or a confusion with another? I think it doesn't.

It did not cause any confusion definitely. It just helped me to know that I am on the right track. In this case, the background drone is there, so the sruthi confusion should not exist while listening.

I'm wondering if there is any confusion with Sanmukhapriya in the initial part as all the swaras until D appears would be same

S'priya did not even enter into my mind when I listened to your piece.

Good job playing, Suji.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Oct 2007, 22:48

(and I was careful not to be deluded by the math as I thought each note must sound true and not be 'dictated' by math)

What do you mean by 'math' here? Frequency analysis? Just curious. If it is, you are right, agreeing with the FFT to the core is not even a remote requirement

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 22:49

cmlover wrote:By the by did you notice that if we had automatically assumed your shruti to be D# instead of D the N2 would become N3 and will take us to dharmavati. But you let the cat out by agreeing with VK that you were at D. One semitone shift can make all the difference in the world !

Really? how? I think it will lead to some thing else. Ya, N3 but not dharmAvati

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Oct 2007, 23:04

i did not see any confusion with shanmukhapriya. But then da arrives quick enough to resolve things.

i also think there are subtle differences but dont know what. One possibilty

1. Construct 2 korvais in hemavati and shanmukhapriya - say 30 seconds or so but have 10-20 seconds in them have just n s r g m p (this part must be identical or almost identical for both.
2. Play the patterns fully - preferably on separate occasions (e.g. days) so that you when playing, you are thinking of only one of the ragas (hemavati or shanmukhapriya). May be play this during a session where you are playing a krithi in that - that way the raga bhava is internalized in you well when you play the pattern. Record the whole thing.
3. Now isolate the 10-20 second sample with ni to pa and compare.

It is also quite possible they are very close but that when we perceive in the context of a different da, we perceive them differently (i.e. we apply some "colored filter"

)

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 18 Oct 2007, 23:14

Suji Ram wrote:Now that we have Arun's answer too (you do want to keep your genius status right? )
here is the answer-

G R G~, M G M~, P M P, D P D~, N D N~, D P M~, P M G R

I must admit that MGM~ was the most difficult to vAsify.
I tried my best and if you believe it is there you can hear it too
This is what is called mazhupufying

The difficulty is the distance between M2 and G2 and back to M2 and that too with a gamaka on M2. And mind you, you have to start it as soon as you finish the gamaka on G2 in the first combo G R G~. This has been very challenging. I could get it if I played slow or without gamaka on M@ but that spoils the whole flow and slur and speed with which it needs to be rendered.

Suji Ram,

I can agree to M G M~ ( where I wrote m m P, - and you have acknowleded as the most difficult phrase to play). But you have certainly played the D P M~ as D M P~ ; I double checked now - end of the phrase D M P , and beginning of P M G R are definitely at the same place on the fingerboard.

Suji Ram wrote:Yes I let the cat out by accepting the Sruti in the hope that we don't have further digression. But did identifying sruti really help in identifying this raga or swaras? or a confusion with another? I think it doesn't. An internal sruti sense is what would matter here- meaning meditating about the phrases.

No, the sruti plays no consequence at all.

-Ramakriya

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 18 Oct 2007, 23:18

arunk wrote:my answer:

hEmavati

(r)/g r g~
(g)/m (p)m m/p
p m p
d p d
n d /n~
d m p
(?/)p m g r

I had trouble labelling #2. gmg would have fit with the general pattern but the pitches as I hear it dont agree to it . I dont think I got this right.

Nice job suji. Nice bhava there! The tone is also sweet!

(r) should be s
reverse the swara mp to pm in dpm. I see that ramakriya also had this.
(?) is one big slur from lower than P swaras nothing specific.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 00:00

But you have certainly played the D P M~ as D M P~ ; I double checked now - end of the phrase D M P , and beginning of P M G R are definitely at the same place on the fingerboard.

I need to defend my case

http://www.sendspace.com/file/1f43fz

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uoo72b

Here are two clips -one is original where I claim it is D P M and another where I doctored one swara to produce D M P. Tell me which is which.

or what the doctored one sounds like in that region.

Fun time..

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 00:23

Arun,
your posts from 195-198 make me wonder-
how much space is there between the swaras on the violin - physically :rolleyes:

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 00:59

suji,

I interpreted it is as dmp because the relative "overall" pitch of 2nd swara seemed a tad lower than the 3rd. Also it looked like the 3rd one was quite flat and was quite close to pa. So it being very flat and close to pa - makes one think it is pa.

But now, when I isolate just these 3 swaras in Goldwave (http://www.sendspace.com/file/ssnpdn) - to my ears it looks like the 3rd swara has a slight upward slide. I think this also gives the feeling that the 3rd swara is higher than 2nd swara. When I listen to this - I hear dmp but it is possible my perception is already colored!

Btw in your last two samples, one of them (13 D) seems to have distortion at the most inopportune spot

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:00

Suji Ram wrote:Arun,
your posts from 195-198 make me wonder-
how much space is there between the swaras on the violin - physically :rolleyes:

"More spacing" - its all relative!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:14

Thanks Suji for the debug session! I can see from my graph your struggle at MGM~ . In fact that area was very difficult to decode. You were trying to get the gamakam on G and in that hurry your initial M is quite high almost reaching to D. I have seen the 'flying' fingers of LGL and have often wondered how he does that. You have done a great job! Love it!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:19

Btw in your last two samples, one of them (13 D) seems to have distortion at the most inopportune spot smile

Arun

No,

That distortion is only to extend the P in D M P,.
I did some cut and paste just to fill in the gap and create extension for P in D M P,.

I removed the M from my original DPM~ which I claim, kept the P as it is and brought in a M from elsewhere to place before the P to creat D M P,. Ignore the distortion and accept it as an extension. Now you see how that sounds?

I wish I had that nice gamaka on M~ then there would have been no dispute. I may agree that the the now placed M may not be as close to my original M.-I mean this placed M is better

Now you see the physical constraints on the violin apart from frequency or whatever

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:20

> your initial M is quite high almost reaching to D
cml - I hope you are not getting confused by the pitch analysis of attack portion of a note. The attack portion analysis can be notoriously unreliable (because not always harmonic, and a significant change in dynamics of signal).

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:24

> That distortion is only to extend the P in D M P,.
For me that also is inopportune as it interferes with clear differentiation between ma and pa

but - anyway I dont think you need to defend yourself. I will take it that you played dpm. The ma is tricky and thus labelling gets confusing. Forget the labelling - you were right within the raga contour and grammar etc., and that is the only thing that counts.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:25

VK
I meant the 'pattern' as Suji suggested like BAB, CBC, DCD ....
If we mindlessly extrapolate from a pattern then we can get deluded and miss a deviation since the mind will refuse to 'see' it. Every svara has to be whetted in place than be extrapolated from 'patterns'. That is why I do go for 'trick' questions. I do not even believe graphs since the eyes can 'fool' the ears since the instruments are not that powerful. Unfortunately my hearing is not that good which is why I fall back on visual cues!

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:38

Ok,

One final word -I am yet to learn hEmavati, dharmavati, S'priya compositions etc. So this exercise has been a prelude...
Thanks for all the education. I think it was well received.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:40

Arun
I do have lot of difficulty with the attack portion! To avoid it I try to lenthen the time and listen to the note but that introduces a 'whine' which destroys the note. The 'time constants' for my hearing are intrinsically weak and I can't help it

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:42

Good Luck Suji!
Along with Hemavati, Dharmavati... try to be a GuNavati too

All the best!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Oct 2007, 01:54

Understoo now CML on what you meant by math.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 02:02

Sample 14 omanisairha
This is the first kriti my teacher taught me. And I know who is Playing this beautiful kriti-

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 02:19

Welldone Suji!
Let us give time for the others to try!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 03:01

Suji Ram wrote:This is the first kriti my teacher taught me.-

me too

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 03:09

arunk wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:This is the first kriti my teacher taught me.-
me too

Arun

For some reason I always thought the music teachers in AP taught this kriti first. My chennai folks learnt mahaganapathim as their first. May be it is just my imagination.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Oct 2007, 03:12

My first song post Varnam is 'Girirajasudha'.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 06:17

Suji Ram wrote:For some reason I always thought the music teachers in AP taught this kriti first.

My teacher indeed is from AP!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 06:31

Since you guys have taken this as first lesson and since 'violin' is language free can I musically fit the following lyric into that melody:
sri raghunAtam bhajarE citta sitA dEvi yutam which may discourage teachers from AP to use as the first invocation lesson

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 Oct 2007, 06:39

Surprisingly, this song is not all that well known in Karnataka (AFAIK) - Till a few years ago, I had never heard this kriti! ( I mean gaNanAtham, not raghunAtham

-Ramakriya

paddu · Post by **paddu** » 19 Oct 2007, 10:26

Hi,
First I thought it was Sahana. But decoding Suji Ram's clue, it came out as Isha Manohari

Here is my attempt

s . r g r .| r . g m p .|
p .????|?? s . r g|

Please let me if I on the right track.

Thanks
Paddu

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Oct 2007, 11:47

Sample 14:

Sa, ri ga ri... ri,, ga ma pa,,

(ma)ni dha pa ma, ga, ri sa ~ni sa, sa, ri ga

Here is my attempt mixed with violin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rm6cuw ( on G )

http://www.sendspace.com/file/spicts ( on violin sruthi E )

( for some reason, may be due to the mixing, Windows media player plays it with awful distortion for me. Sorry about that. Audacity and VLC Media player do a better job. )

I thought it was Sahana but it did not quite have all the characteristics of Sahana. I have never heard of this krithi before. What a beautiful rendition. Just lovely. It was quite a bit of a struggle to try to come sort of close to imitating the violin but it was fun. I felt guilty about mixing my playing with it but it sounds better when I hide behind the violin. After listening to my playing, listening to the original was even more beautiful and enjoyable

paddu · Post by **paddu** » 19 Oct 2007, 12:10

paddu wrote:Hi,

s . r g r .| r . g m p .|
p .????|?? s . r g|

Here is my second attempt

s. r g r. | r . g m p .|
(p) n . d p m .| g . r s r .|
s . r g

Thanks
Paddu

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 18:56

Since most of you know this and as VK has decoded correctly(one typo?) (and Paddu almost) there is no point inprolongign this exercise. Congratulations.
Yes it is the lovely Isamanohari. The answer is
S,RGR, R,GMP, N,DPM, G,RSN, |(end of aavartam) S,RG (beginning of next aavartam which I included just to confuse you

The pattern is logical (quite mathemtical as Suji would put it). As VK says the melody is just haunting.
You don't have many kritis in this raga (I guess T has one) but this one is the famous piece of MD. There must be subtle gamakas in this raga which I do not know and will appreciate Arun/ramakriya's erudite explanations. Would also love to hear Suji's rerendering and comments.
VK
Nice attempt, but do it on your own but the mixing is terrible

Thanks folks and now on to Arun's tough nut

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 19:38

And as the finale let me add my Vijayadashami greetings to you all with the blessings of Isamanohari and the proud accompaniment of the maestro!
http://www.mediafire.com/?4exdzx3gbep

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 20:27

I remember reading that Isamanohari was the substitute for harikAmbhOji (not as a mela but a straightforward "scale") before harikAmbhOji came in vogue. I dont know how it was then but in the version I learnt it has both N3 and N2. N3 figures in SNS, R~NS.

From what I gather based on the version I learnt, ri seems quite important w.r.t gamakas - dhIrga with gamaka quite often. Of course N2 also takes gamaka - as up-slide as well as kampita gamika with initial take off from d2 (d2-n2 raga like).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Oct 2007, 21:27

>There must be subtle gamakas in this raga which I do not know

Subtle?

The 'ri' gamaka sounds like it is similar to Sahana's ( gari gari ). Arun, can you explain the gamaka on N2? I tried various ways and it did not quite match what the violinist is playing. I tried (M)N2 which sounded OK, (DS)N sounded nice but it did not match what the violinist is playing, (D)N I was not quite satisfied.

Also, the G,RSN did not sound right when I played it, you mention there is N3 involved. It will be good if you can provide your usual decoding with swaras and gamakas.

>Since most of you know this

Actually I never knew this piece, CML, what is the first line of the krithi? I will hunt it down and listen to it fully. Thanks.

Who is the artist for this recording? ( and the mridangamist )

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 21:37

http://www.karnatik.com/c1038.shtml

for lyrics
there is one by kvn which is close to what i learnt in mio or nada anubhooti
and also S ramanathan on s priya

artist in clip tnk

G,RSN, is an important phrase esp ending...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Oct 2007, 21:41

the ni slide gamaka in the sample seems (p)(m)/n i.e. p to ma (relatively quickly) and then slow up to ni.

The n3 here is quite subtle (if I am hearing it right). It seems g , r n /s - the ni spot is very briefly touched.

I may be wrong but it looks grn`s rather than grsn` where n` is kakali.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Oct 2007, 23:05

First ragam
D2N3D2PPPM1G3 S,R1G3

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2007, 23:10

VK,
I heard your playing. Nice effect

The gamaka on dham (sri gaNanAdham) sounds more like "dham dham" in your playing. On violin we would use one stretch of bow to produce that sound instead of two strokes. I don't know about flute but I'm guessing you will have blow once and only modulate your fingers to get the gamaka. Try that.

On the version of this song you should listen to KVN. TNK no doubt has played it very well but sahitya wise it is difficult to follow. He has changed it-or may be a variation from what I learnt.

As for GRSN I think TNK played it slightly different. I haven't tried yet to compare. It sounds different from CML notations...

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 Oct 2007, 23:47

arunk wrote:I remember reading that Isamanohari was the substitute for harikAmbhOji (not as a mela but a straightforward "scale") before harikAmbhOji came in vogue. I dont know how it was then but in the version I learnt it has both N3 and N2. N3 figures in SNS, R~NS.

Arun

So much so that one recording release labels SrigananAtham - harikAmbhOji -:rolleyes: if I remember correctly!

I don't know the facts - But before the Tygaraja's time bothe ISamanOhari, and harikAmbhOji were pretty much not existent..

-Ramakriya

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Oct 2007, 00:19

The gamaka on dham (sri gaNanAdham) sounds more like "dham dham" in your playing. On violin we would use one stretch of bow to produce that sound instead of two strokes. I don't know about flute but I'm guessing you will have blow once and only modulate your fingers to get the gamaka. Try that.

I had some difficulty on that. You are right about the mechanics of getting that gamaka on the flute but believe me, I tried a few different ways and none of them sounded as nice as TNK's!! Of course, it is my limitation. Now that you tell me it did not sound right, I will try a few other ways.

BTW, TNK seemed to have 'stylized' this rendition to make it sound 'hooksy' and attractive. Nothing wrong with that, it is all good. I listened to the rendition in that karnatik.com link and that sounds quite different. I need to listen to KVN's.

>I heard your playing. Nice effect

Thanks. Only when combined with violin

CML, if it sounds distorted with windows media player, try another player like VLC. I had a bit better luck with the other ones.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2007, 00:33

ramakriya wrote:But before the Tygaraja's time bothe ISamanOhari, and harikAmbhOji were pretty much not existent..

-Ramakriya

The raga ISamanOhari appears in Sahaji's work (ragalakhshaNamu - late 17th to early 18th) and in Tulaja's work (sangItasArAmrta - first half of 18th century) - both dated prior to the trinity. Both list under kAmbhOji mEla. Mention of kAkali appears in mudduvEnkaTamakhi's work.

hArikAmbhOji makes its first appearance only in gOvindAcArya's work.

So ISamanOhari definitely predates harikAmbhOji by quite a few decades.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2007, 00:46

cml - the sruthi of first sample is close to D#

The sruthi of second sample is lower - I think closer to D (sorry - I should have prepared this better)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2007, 01:16

folks I have updated sample #15 file wherein I have tried to adjust the sruthis to be closer to each other. I think it is close to D#. You can redownload the sample (I have updated the link in the questions thread)

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 02:45

Im not giving away the complete answer to sample 15 dual.
But first is suryakantam janya(may be) and other MMG janya
Hope I am right

Atleast I hear a distinct D1 in the second phrase

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2007, 03:04

hint #1: both are melas (although it is possible they are ambigious as in not all swaras may be present in both sample - in fact I know this is the case for second phrase)
hint #2: suji you are sort off on the right track, but off by a bit

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Oct 2007, 03:22

cmlover wrote:And as the finale let me add my Vijayadashami greetings to you all with the blessings of Isamanohari and the proud accompaniment of the maestro!
http://www.mediafire.com/?4exdzx3gbep

I missed this among all the other posts. Good job CML and thanks very much for the wishes. Vijayadashami and Saraswathi Pooja Greetings to you and everyone in this forum and their family and friends.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 03:59

CML,
That is great and in sruti!. A new idea for us to sing like that in karaoke style. I heard only after VK pointed it out. I thought you posted the original clip which I have on CD.

Many good wishes to all on the occasion of Saraswati puja!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Oct 2007, 07:45

My guess for the first mela is Gowrimanohari !
I could almost hear the phrase from gurulEka..
(I assume the shruti is D#)
Thanks VK/Suji..

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 20 Oct 2007, 09:17

Phrase 1

23 gowri manOhari mEla
Aa: S R2 G2 M1 P D2 N3 S
Av: S N3 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S

N S' N D N D P M R, /G M

Phrase 2
21 kIravANi mela
Aa: S R2 G2 M1 P D1 N3 S
Av: S N3 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S

R' G' R' NN(sn) S' R'
G' R' S' N D

the difference between the two phrases is in D
offcourse M is missing in 2nd phrase but that doesn't matter in identifying the raga swaroopa.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 20 Oct 2007, 09:25

Arun

Regarding "dual ragas" clip:

1) Technically speaking, the first raga has a "missing" swara before the violinist drops down to the "eduppu" line. Not a big deal but strictly speaking distorts the rAga and hence avoidable in lower kAlam swaras.

2) The second raga - there is insufficient information to determine the second raga...BUT...the actual usage hints at only one possibility (i.e., the lower numbered mela

).