Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

[nathikan]

so why should Tamil concerts attract a broader social spectrum?

Because Tamil people find Sanskrit is ugly , is it not called devil-abhasha? We give manipravalam a temporary pass which might be revoked at any time.

Jokes aside, I don't think it's particularly mysterious why there is more class diversity at Tamil Isai Sangam kutcheris than at Mylapore Fine Arts I think that the TIS is the only Madras sabha run by non-Brahmins as well. The Thamizh Isai movement was about including the people and people responded.

Arasi, "There was no politics then when it came to tamizh iSai " -- I don't think this is true at all. It was born in the context of social reform and nationalist populism, which is why events like the Music Academy's banning of MSS or the "purifiication" of the Thyagaraja samadhi after Dhandapani Desikar sang in Thamizh were so shockingly reactionary. The political context was also why, I think, there was an emphasis on compositions in Thamizh that was closer to everyday speech than to centhamizh. It's been a while since I read Amanda Weidman's book, but I remember thinking as I read it that participation in the Tamil Isai movement was a way for Brahmins to identify themselves as progressives.

[nathikan]

Vijay: By Tamil Isai Movement, I did not mean to refer to any fringe elements who were advocating excluding non-tamil songs from Tamil Nadu. Such positions are utter rubbish and as you say, belong to the gutter. I am referring to the wing with leading personalities of the day like Kalki, Sadasivam, MSS and others... I am sure there were people who made such middle of the road statements then, but as with anything middle of the road, they got run over.

The people who made "middle of the road statements" didn't get run over, they were the ones who institutionalized Thamizh Isai and are venerated to this day. For example, Raja Annamalai who founded the music college and was the most important patron of Thamizh Isai conferences/research/concerts etc took great pains to distinguish the Thamizh Isai movement as not being about excluding other languages from music.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks for the clarification Nathikan. Understood. If I remember right, such research activity moved to Annamalai university. Later on Prof S. Ramanathan did his research there as well. Annamalai University in Chidambaram does not figure in much of our discussions here but it probably still has a good tamil music research department.

[arasi]

Nathigan,
Thanks for your input.

As a child, and with my love for music, I would not have registered the political side of it. Also, I was blessed in witnesssing the positive side of what was going on. I was able to listen to stalwarts who were stirred by the freedom movement. Non brahmins and brahmins alike were drawn to the idea of nourishing tamizh iSai. Conservatives abounded of course, but I cannot forget the way I was affected as a child by all the energy which surrounded me. Again, while part of my family was conservative, there were those who were steeped in patriotism and among them, even those who were not musical, were singing Bharati's songs. I was also blessed in the presence of an uncle whose progressive ideas in music have made a mark in CM's recent history. His association with the literati (of all castes) surely influenced him and made him forge through with his ideas inspite of resistance from the conservative lot.

CML would speak with more authority on this--with facts and commentary...

[rajeshnat]

I was in the same predicament for a long time on whether to join this lovely discussion? Just decided to take a plunge today?I am drawing a clear boundary condition for my POV more based on Sangeet Rasiks crystal clear posts?

1. CM is presently not having enough patronage in sabhas (not talking about recordings here), we are looking at avenues to increase the patronage?

2. From SR's viewpoint , many of the rasikas are falling in the bracket of not listening to carnatic music because of following reasons::
a. I donot understand rama bhakthi or kshetra bhakthi and I dont attend concerts because of that. CM is too esoteric .
b. I love tukkadas like maitreem bhajatha or shanthi nilava vendum, but to me there is a main or submain before all that in a concert, where they keep on tossing few lines where I dont understand a line hence because of that I hate to attend CM Concert .
c. If perhaps compositions are sung not just involving only hindu bhakthi , but may be secular themes as defined by SR, then I would love to attend those concerts?

3. SR feels perhaps may be(every may is a maynot, sr is never asserting) if we sing secular themes too, we will pull in more brand new rasikas to sabhas?

4. Let me not present viewpoints where I feel there are million other reasons other than "secular themes" not being presented which are far more important for bringing in brand new rasika patronage in today's world. I believe SR and each of us have millions reasons for those?

SR,
With the above boundary conditions let me give my viewpoints more from taking a metamorphosis route on how to implement bringing in secular themes and what could be the obstacles?

1.When a musician is presenting a krithi(not tukkadas, talking more of submains or mains) at the age of say 22 in a sabha , he has learnt , assimilated and internalized the rAga bhAvam, lyrics and most importantly an unmeasurable confidence is there for the vidwan/vidushi. Going little deeply he/she has got the confidence because at a young age (say teens )guru's have taught those future vidwans where there is an emphasis more on rAga bhAvam and possibly bhakthi(there could be other parameters too??, but to me rAgabhaVam and bhakthi are building blocks).When I mean bhakthi here , I want to be very careful here , this could be embedded in the rAga bhAvam itself , which possibly through out life a vidwan/vidushi may not even understand it is embedded.

2. Can the guru teach the future vidushis/vidwans where secular themes are presented as building blocks at a early age? . What are the prerequisites. The guru must first have the confidence to teach secular themes oriented compositions than rather the trinity+Sivan+DasAr oriented compositions? I have a feeling familiarity of rAga bhAvam with its intrinsic embedded bhakthi will override everything , but let me still assume there is a bold guru(who has the DNA of sangeetrasik) who feels secular theme compositions is something I can teach as much as trinity+Sivan+DasAr oriented compositions and takes a plunge.

3. Having assumed guru is ready, will the sishyas be ready to assimilate those compositions? Here I want to be very careful , I wish I am a musician(wake up gAyatri vekat,suryaprakash and NSG , you are too dormant here). I am speculating that if I was a sishya in teens , since there is a strong chance to understand the meaning of secular themes meaning, I may find CM to be little less interesting and possibly the secular themes itself is a distraction for me to master rAga bhAvam . Remember SR what all you consider as secular themes is the conviction that has built up post your teens, I am assuming you are aged 30+ like me, possibly since you have deep kerela roots you would have got it much earlier, these kind of secular theme meanings may not interested you much in teens. In my opinion not understanding lyrics by a sishya is a necessary condition for excellence , again I am not against teaching the meaning of lyrics at early stages to sishyas as long it is appropriate of only those lyrics for that age.

4. So a vidwan/vidushi in the early part of career can only present krithis(not tukkadas) that are established in bhakthi , as there is a pragmatic implementation issue of presenting quality concerts, as the most important unmeasurable confidence would be lacking.

That does not mean what You say cannot be implemented?
Whatever you say can be implemented by vidwans/ vidushis who reach a mid career phase where they feel they can bring compositions on secular themes . In my opinion established musicians who have got super extraordinary vidwat can only present the secular themes oriented concerts where they present a main-submain without losing rAga bhAvam of what they are capable if they are rendering well established krithis.

The key point is even if the secular compositions are rendered as perfectly as traditional well established ones , the rasikas non lack of openness or excess conditioning will label the artist as he/she is no more a carnatic musician atleast with most of the majority rasikas . In that process more brand new rasikas may join the sabha crowd , which is excellent for CM , but that vidwan/vidushi risks losing his established crowd of rasikas.

To me it is finally a call of that musicians conviction which has its own perils to jeopadrize their career as they may be easily blamed that his/her music is gone . That musician should decide for his life to present maximum concerts on "secular themes", and not just present one or two thematic ones , as it takes a long time for a rasika to accept him/her and more importantly that with secular themes CM has still the same quality as traditional krithis .

[paddu]

Kindly read this article

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.as ... e&Topic=0&

Is this a step towards "Secular Themes in CM"?

Paddu

[vijay]

An interesting experiment and one very relevant to this thread. The attempt to reach out to audiences with themes they can relate to, is unexceptionable but without passing a jugdment on the compositions presented, one must wonder whether there are enough secular compositions to sustain a quality CM concert. (One might argue that there are enough and more Padams of the highest melodic quality but a concert full of Padams would be a thematic and not a traditional one)

As a one-off thematic presentation or as an ongoing effort to reach out to a wider audience, in parallel with a regular concert career, this is not a good idea. But if the objective is to attract people unfamiliar with the form, education is the way to go rather than trying to accommodate passing trends and preferences. And as I've said a million times on this forum, widening the audience base, although desirable, is not an end in itself and it might even be a good thing, in certain cases, to have fewer but more committed rasikas...

CM is not for everyone...it is a hard journey for both rasikas and artistes and there ought to be no easy way out! On that pedantic note, let me bring this ramble to an end!

[vijay]

Err...I meant "not a bad idea" in the 2nd para of my post above!

[vijay]

Challenging norms is not necessarily a good thing, nor is trying to marry management spiel with the arts...challenging tradition is fine but only in the interest of aestheti/intellectual refinement.

[arasi]

We do not have the complete list of songs (she also sang some traditional songs, it says). She sang , Omanat tingaL, a lullaby for a child, a folk song and love songs. They may or may not pertain to particular gods.
Which brings us to this question. I don't think anyone here is asking for all secular concerts. We merely would like a few secular pieces included in concerts, that's all. Trinity compositions will never fade away (just as our culture, in spite of abuses has stayed on). It is just that we don't have to stay the same way for centuries. I think those who want new blood in anything are also concerned about preserving the treasures of yore. As Vijay said elsewhere, while we look for 'responsible' innovations in CM, we respect the singing of a classic like cakkani rAja mArgamu in a concert just as much. To treasure the old, and be innovative at the same time is the thing...

[nathikan]

one must wonder whether there are enough secular compositions to sustain a quality CM concert.

It's precisely this kind of attitude with regard to Thamizh that the Thamizh Isai movement was responding to -- Sivan composing, Sadasivam requesting settings/compositions, Raja Annamalai offering prizes for new compositions, popularizing the compositions of anterior composers such as OVK, setting up schools and conferences, researching, writing articles and reviews, the developing of a receptive audience etc etc. A whole range of activity made it possible for people to go from wondering if an all-Thamizh CM concert was possible to wondering why the Thamizh Isai movement was necessary. It will take a similar range of activity from research to composition to the articulation of an eager audience to make a quality all-secular concert possible.

BN has made some explorations in this vein, whether Valli using settings of Sangam poetry or Malavika's Thimakka piece, which is another resource.

I agree with Arasi that it's not a matter of jettisoning the old pieces, it's a matter of the context. For example, you can still go see Triumph of the Will and admire its skill and innovativeness, but the documentary field is not dominated by films of that ideology and if you go to see a screening, the odds are extremely remote that you will be sitting next to a Nazi. However, with CM, it's much, much, much more likely that the lyrics, the crowd, the venue, the teachers are in ideological sync, and worse, assume you are too.

In European classical music, religious items are still a part of the repertoire, but they also don't affect every aspect of the music's dissemination and reception.

[vijay]

Nathikan what you say seems to make a lot of sense as far as Tamizh compositions are concerned. But while the relative exclusion (and I use the term wiith caution since we had composers like GKB/OVK well before the tamil movement) of Tamizh from CM was probably a result of a remarkable efflorescence of compositional genius in other languages, the aliiance between CM and Bhakti is more fundamental. In a detailed rendition of a language/theme-neutral Alaapana, the overwhelming mood is that of spiritual union. OTOH, HM, by its very character, leans towards love rather than spirituality.

While I have nothing against secular compositions and indeed welcome a greater diversity of themes, I don't think they will be any more successful in replacing Bhakti than Tamil was, in overhauling the Trinity's legacy, the (welcome) addition of a few PS/GKB/OVK compositions notwithstanding. In fact I think compositions on Christ or Allah would probably represent the CM tradition more faithfully than secular themes! All of this is of course only my PoV...

Finally although a large part of the CM fraternity is ideologically in sync, hopefully the comparison with Naizs was more to illustrate the "sync" than the "ideology"!

[rshankar]

At the outset, let me reiterate that I don't care about the compositions being presented as long as they are presented esthetically, within the framework of a good musical idiom. What I find hard to take is the decree that 'such and such' MUST happen to broaden the appeal/keep the music alive. Along those lines here are a few thoughts:

If, in an audience that is SO into bhakti (the 'small' traditional CM audience) that should have no barriers at all, there is need for lingusitic partitioning, imagine what would happen with the 'much larger' audiences for secular CM? Like secular tamizh iSai, there should be secular iSai movements in all languages one hears on the CM stage.

And taking Manasi's experiment about the 'static positioning of CM artists' - will there be a need for our performers to move around the stage to attract even more crowds? One person's friends may want secular compositions, another's may want artists who move, while a third person's may......

And that link that Paddu posted: when did the 'madhurAshTakam' (adharam madhuram) become a composition describing one's beloved? Unless of course, she left out the phrase 'mathurAdhipatEr akhilam madhuram'.

And taking this contextually, there have been secularly themed concerts - for instance, Sri Vijay SIva gave a concert showcasing bhAratI's freedom/dESabhakti songs - and the audience was NO different from a traditional CM concert. He was even attired in a khAdi outfit, complete with a gAndhI cap!

[arasi]

Ravi,
You and I would love 'just baArati' concerts. Imagine the variety in rasAs and content--bakti songs and secular ones! Hope such concerts get popular. Sowmya's concert a couple of years ago in the mArgazhi utsavam was great!Hope more would follow...

[vijay]

Exactly Ravi - the only movement we need to encourage is that towards aesthetic excellence. The rest will naturally sort themselves out depending on the social circumstances and the composer's inclination. If CM sees a rash of brilliant composers whose mother tongue happens to be Swahili, let us have Hakuna Matata set to Kambhoji! And if there is a sudden awareness about Global Warming among the composers' community, let the Rainbow Warrior replace the Bow Warrior!

About the piece Paddu posted, the writer seems to be quite clueless about CM so it is possible that errors have crept in so let us give the artiste the benefit of doubt. Manasi Prasad is a talented, committed youngster and it is quite likely that her statements come across as more frivolous than she intended them to be.

[arasi]

I hear she is talented. I was indisposed and missed her concert a few days ago.
Yes, Vijay. The reporter might not have caught the essence of what the young woman was saying. By the way, I wonder what those traditional pieces were...

[vasanthakokilam]

Vijay wrote:
But while the relative exclusion (and I use the term wiith caution since we had composers like GKB/OVK well before the tamil movement) of Tamizh from CM was probably a result of a remarkable efflorescence of compositional genius in other languages

Vijay, I know the above statement is a side bar one in the context of your correct assessment that bhakthi and CM are lot more closely linked than Tamil and CM but the above statement is very questionable since there is no evidence that is what happened. You are attributing a simple and straightforward cause to a complex process that unfolded over many decades or centuries.

As a second item, shall we all agree to stipulate two things so we are all on the same page..

1) In this discussion, secular compositions are not meant to replace Trinity's compositions or reduce their prominence. Any such inference is easy to debate and put away which had already happened many times in this thread.

2) Secular compostions are not meant to reduce the bhakthi content of CM. Any such inference is easy to debate and put away which had already happened many times in this thread.

I am proposing this because these two issues are muddlling the investigation, imagination and creative storyboarding of the possible future state of CM with secular compositions coexisting with current bhakthi based compostions of the Trinity and others. I am offering this without taking any sides ( in this post ).

[arasi]

VK,
Yes, we had to get out of the muddle. Thanks for spelling it out.

[vijay]

Perhaps VK, I've already admitted my poor grasp of history. However my reasonsing is that the trinity elevated Sanskrit and Telugu to a special status in CM thanks to the brilliance of their compositions. For instance, Patnam and Poonchi composed in Telugu even though their mother tongue was Tamil...if the trinity had composed in Tamil, I think it quite possible that a bulk of theirfollowers would have composed in that language as well..

Of course this is not to suggest that other factors were at work, in particular, royal preferences in the Tanjore court/Music Circles. However if we analyze popular carnatic compositions - about 90% are trinity/post trinity works. If we make the reasonable presumption that the trinity's (and Swathi Thirunal's) compositions were independent of court patronage, that would address about 50% of the compositions sung on the concert stage today. Much of the balance which are in languages other than Tamil can be attributed to composers like Patnam, Poonchi, HMB and MV many of whom were direct or indirect disciples of Thyagaraja, and who as I've said before were likely to have been influenced by their guru in choosing to compose in Telugu (I am aware, though, that MD's disciples composed in Telugu and not Sanskrit). Between these composers we have another 20-25% of the concert list popular today. The rest is mostly accounted for by Tamil composers like PS/GKB/OVK/Koteeswara Iyer.

My limited point therefore is - if we look at the prevalence of Telugu/SAnskrit compositions (as against Tamil) in the concert circuit around the time of the Tamil Isai movement, one of the reasons is that these languages were preferred by the Trinity. For one, their own compositions formed a bulk of the pieces. Further Thyagaraja also probably inspired his disciples to compose in Telugu which accounts for another large chunk

[vasanthakokilam]

Vijay: Well written response. Thanks. Let me first state a general principle in looking at history and then address the specific point you are making.

History, for the most part, should be interpreted as a 'description of effects' and not 'causes'. This is because History by its very nature has what is called the 'Survivor Bias'. Meaning, it can only talk about what survived, what was widely known, what was believed to have happened, a consensus of opinion etc. There were thousand other things that went on which are not part of the historical narrative because future generations want a compressed description of the past and winners win out in that compressed message. Now what gets propagated to future generations is that limited and compressed 'survivor biassed' narrative. What I am saying might sound obvious and might seem like not even worth stating because it is so obvious but the key point here is that we need to keep in mind that 'survivor bias' if we are trying to take that narrative and form cause and effect relationships.

In this context, 'Trinity's compositions are widely known and accepted' is the effect ( or end result ) of multitude of causes. The thing that tamil composers were not prominent in that time period can also be inferred from History because there is no exhaustive narrative about them. That is also an effect of multitude of causes. But linking these two in a cause-effect chain is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence. History normally does not help much directly.

Making this point even more directly, you said "Patnam and Poonchi composed in Telugu even though their mother tongue was Tamil...if the trinity had composed in Tamil, I think it quite possible that a bulk of theirfollowers would have composed in that language as well.."

That is a perfectly logical deduction. But you are only talking about Patnam and Poochi because their work survived. If that did not survive, the fact that they composed in Telegu and not tamil is a moot point. Meaning, what mattered most is the survival of the work and not the fact that they did not compose in Tamil. We can not give that as a reason why Tamil composers were not prominent in that period.

Alright, having made all this convoluted point about survivor bias, it does not mean that we can not draw conclusions based on historical facts. We do this all the time. We can breath a little easier ( but still not with 100% confidence ) if we make such conclusions on sequential events. For example, Royal Patronage collapsed, Musicans moved to madras, Mylapore became the center of music, the shishya parampara of Thyagaraja happened to be at the right time at the right place, a co-dependent evolution of available material and people's tastes happened and Thyagaraja's compositions were a mainstay in concerts thereafter... That is the best one can say.

A small change in the past could have changed future events dramatically resulting in a different historical narrative that survived for us and we may be discussing why OVK is such a celebrated composer in the 1930s ( hypothetically speaking ). In this alternate imagined historical narrative, OVK's popularity and thyagaraja's lack of popularity would not have had anything to do with each other ( and neither the relative merits of OVK vs Thyagaraja's compositions ).

[vijay]

VK point taken...as I said above, I am not saying that the trinity were the sole cause of tamil's exclusion but one of the important causes. I accept your argument about post trinity Tamil composers possibly being suppressed because of a general preference for Telugu/Sanskrit among the musical elite/royalty

However I think it would be an extreme co-incidence if it turned out that there were in fact, say 2-3 Tamil composer of the same calibre as the trinity in the 3 centuries between 1600 and 1900. The fact that the trinity were contemperaneous is in itself a statistical quirk. To add another set of equally qualified composers in the same time period and in the same language would compound it manifold. And if indeed they did, that their work was, for some reason, never discovered, even more so. And we must remember that Tamil composers from that era - be it GKB or Arunachala Kavi - while not as popular as the Trinity, were not unknown either. And in my very guarded opinion, composers of great merit but nowhere near the Trinity.

Therefore, I cannot see the prevalence of the Trinity's works as some sort of survivor's bias - the likelihood of works of comparable quality and extent "not having survived" for whatever reason, is, in my opinion, very remote for the reasons stated above. And since the Trinity's works, by dominating CM, necessarily ate/eat into the playing time of other compositions, including Tamil ones, identifying the Trinity's language preferences as one of the causes for Tamil's exclusion does not appear far fetched to me

Also worth reflecting upon, is that the other posited reason for Telugu's past predominance - i. e court patronage - clearly don't apply today...but, even now, a majority of compositions sung on the concert platform are not in Tamizh...even though we are almost a century down the road from the Tamil Isai Movement (which was, in turn, at a comparable remove from the Trinity period)....is this not, then, another illustration of the Trinity's influence in determining the language-mix, so to speak, even after factoring in a possible survivor's bias...

Lastly, about OVK, he composed in both Sanskrit and Tamil so the obscurity of his krithis must have to do with factors other than language alone.

To reiterate, however, this is just a layman wondering aloud and I reiterate that my perspective may be clouded because of my poor grounding in historical analysis/research...

[cmlover]

Good analysis VK and Vijay. I will call these explanations 20/20 hindsight
A few historical points which I am sure Arasi will also recall and corroborate. CM was never atrociously popular during the 19th century or even early part of 20th. Villages used to host Bhagavatars (mostly the local rich Jamindars or the local Temples) and it was a sort of evening entertainment. Harikatha as well as Bhajans were more popular. CM came into prominance only through the Tamil magazines Vikatan, Kalki, svadeshamitran etc., In fact Kalki galvanized the CM scene through his wit and entertainng comments. Again the hotbed of CM was as you rightly say Mylapore. Everybody in Madras Presidency looked towards PaTTaNam for cultural enlightenment. Again Madras was cosmopolitan with most of the folks knowing Telugu which at times even dominated Tamil. I remember the bitter struggle by Telugus to have Madras included into Andhra. Potti Sriramulu even died for it! Hence CM in Telugu was well appreciated. The plebians (naaTTupurRatthaan had to live with what was purveyed by the Mylaporeans. The sabhas were partly controlled by wealthy chettiars whose primary language was Telugu. P Sivan was ignored since he composed in Tamil and his songs were not compared worthy of concerts . Even HMB had to struggle to get his compositions recognized! OVK was unheard of. CM was primarily in the hands of Telugus and it did not matter. Kalki wanted to bring a change and while promoting MS he tried to 'push' Tamil sahityams even some of his own. DKP galvanized the populace with her singing of Bharati songs and MS joined with her. At the same time P Sivan because of his 'film reputation' whose songs were immensely popular started getting some recognition. MMI, GNB, VVS among many started singing Tamil songs in spite of strong resistance from the establishment. However Tamil ruled the roost in BharathanaaTyam. After kalakshetra became the centre for Dance Tamil got a greater share in CM. Even the greats like ARI, SSI, Musiri relented and started singing Tamil songs in concerts. And as perhaps as an absolution ARI even tuned Thiruppavai all in Tamil.... All this is history.

It is quite possible for about ten of the current prominant singers to start setting the tune and sing Tamil songs which are available in plenty. They have the knowledge and skills. In fact Sanjay thrills us at times with songs for whcih he has set the tune... But most of the present ones hesitate rocking the boat due to the streak of conservatism or 'Guru Bhakti' Of course finally Cash will Talk.....

(Just wanted to add parenthetically that Sanskrit would not have become a CM language were it not for MD, his sishya prampara as well as subbarama dikshatar ..)

[vijay]

Thanks CML - that was quite interesting and informative

[arunk]

(Just wanted to add parenthetically that Sanskrit would not have become a CM language were it not for MD, his sishya prampara as well as subbarama dikshatar ..)

I believe this is factually incorrect. For one OVK predates MD. Also sanskrit in the context of Indian classical music (all kinds and thus even early) was around from early mela period.

But what may add "weightage" to you statement is if you change it to Sanskrit would not have become the CM language it is today were it not for MD .... Perhaps that is what you intended. It would be better but not still not entirely correct as you also have to add Swati Tirunal to this (his works AND his patronage).

[cmlover]

Thanks Arun
I should have mentioned too Sanskrit would not have become the 'performing' language: Sanskrit by far was the language of the important CM musical treatises though there are good ones in Telugu as well due to the Royal patronage. Svati's sanskrit compositions never saw the concert stage till HMB and SSI brought them to the fore. As far as OVK was concerned he faded into obscurity in the 18th century itseelf except for surviving in odd Harkatha compositions! Arunachala kavi inspite of his sparkling lyrics and ragas never made it (probaly due to the non-brahmin bias). Nilakanta Sivan (he had close to 2000 compositions!) became unknown since he was buried in the 'malayalam territory' which was also ignored by the prominant CM propagandists!

[cmlover]

May I also add that conservative brahmins considered Sanskrit was divine and should be chanted only in the 'vedic style' and not sung (except in bhajans?). When MS musicalized vishnu sahasranamam there was a big resistance, primarily also since it was not supposed to be sung by a Woman !

[arasi]

And the suprabhAtam!
CML,
Thanks for jogging my memory and for your excellent post.
We 'lived' those moments when the national fervor brought to focus bArati's patriotic verses which later led to appreciating the whole body of his great works. Among others, Kalki and Sadasivam, the editor and publisher of the magazine Kalki were joined by others who were keen on promoting tamizh songs. There were bArati competitions everywhere for youngsters to take part in and Kalki, though he suffered from asthma, was present as a judge in most of them. AVm's film nAm iruvar had hit songs which were bArati's. ADuvOmE, paLLu pADuvOmE! veTRi eTTu dikkumeTTa koTTu muraSE, viDudalai, viDudalai, and so on.

Of course, Ariyakkudy also tuned rAm nATAka krutis besides tiruppAvai which gained popularity. MSS's yArO ivar yArO, VVS's kANa vENDUm laksham kaNgaL, rAmanukku mannan muDi tandAlE etc...

[arunk]

May I also add that conservative brahmins considered Sanskrit was divine and should be chanted only in the 'vedic style' and not sung (except in bhajans?). When MS musicalized vishnu sahasranamam there was a big resistance, primarily also since it was not supposed to be sung by a Woman !

Again - not sure. I thought there was a clear distinction between sanskrit works (like vedas) that need to only chanted (in a specific way), vs. sanskrit works that can be sung. For example, *ALL* examples in Sarngadeva's work (with solfa notation) are in Sanskrit. IIRC so is the kalveTTu in Tamil Nadu which predates that by 500 years (forgot the place now). Heck, I am sure there are sanskrit music phrases in NatyaSastra.

So Sansrit only for chanting? I certainly dont think history supports it.

[cmlover]

There are always exceptions! My keyword is 'conservative'
(let us not rule out the compositions of Annammacarya and Purandara! (they did sing them and not chant! The Tamil paashurams were 'sung' by the Othuvaars in the style set by the naayanmaar. Even now some of them resent them being sung as a CM kriti with the aalaapanai nereval style!

[arunk]

yes - but when did exceptions/fringe-elements become the rule in establishing norms i.e. to some how make sanskrit have a diminished role?

Besides I thought your point was sanskrit somehow had a diminished role PRIOR to MD (so MS singing is completely irrelevant to that point)? I think there is clear evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, if you are talking about conservatives in the 19th/20th century then that directlycontradicts the implication of your point that *since* MD (i.e. 19th, 20th century) sanskrit had a prominent role (because of him). If these conservatives had much clout then in spite of MD, sanskrit in CM would have been diminished until more progressive times. Again, history contradicts that.

I think it is safe to say sanskrit has been part of parcel of CM in a significant role since its inception. Its only telugu that raised its profile in a very significant way later.

Arun

[cmlover]

I see no reason for the disappearance of the kritis of OVK, Annamma etc in Sanskrit from sanskrit unless they were promoted blatantly or in Royal courts. Even svati kept his kritis for private entertainment and did not encourage them to be sung publicly. We certainly do not know how many of the sanskrit songs with raga affixture were sung. In fact they may have been tuned by later performers or even following MD who we know for sure sang in Sanskrit. With Badracala Ramdas, Kshtrajna etc Telugu was more promiant in CM and with Royal patronage was waiting for the arrival of T to become the lingua musica!

[vasanthakokilam]

CML's description of the Madras/Mylapore scene of the early 20th century makes sense and consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

We also need to throw the following into the equation to understand the full picture.

Before the ARI innovated the current cutcheri format, the number of krithis sung in CM concerts were minimal since they were all predominantly RTP based. So,

1) Who were singing the Trinity's songs in concerts? And where? In royal courts and Zamindar/patron houses?
2) There seems to be something missing in the narrative of the CM scene of the 1800s. How did the trinity's compositions spread across South India in the 1800s, if they actually did?
3) Another angle to think about is, were the Shishyas of the Trinity ( specifically Tyagaraja ) learning music from them or learning their compositions from them? Where did they put to use those compositions?
4) Let us consider GKB and Vedanayakam Pillai. Both were Tamil composers. How and where were their compositions used during their times? Did they have Shishyas?

[cmlover]

4) Let us consider GKB and Vedanayakam Pillai. Both were Tamil composers. How and where were their compositions used during their times? Did they have Shishyas?

Vedanayagam pillai was popular only among the non-brahmins. His songs were set to CM tunes much later but were seldom sung. Though Ramalinga svamigaL (vaLLalar) had written a number of Tamil songs, nobody bothered to sing them in Carnatic tunes but were sung more in the style of thEvaram (PaNN style). Primarily these were nonbrahmin works. GKB's works had some recognition; especially his nandanar kIrtanai as an opera with good carnatic tunes. They were seldom sung in Concerts until much later as thukkadas. Of course the Harikatha on nandanar was extremely popular until there were rising protests from the nonbrahmin community after which some of the songs were sanitized.

let us remember that Purandara dasa also was a nonbrahmin which is one of the reasons why his songs were dormant. Ramakriya can perhaps describe the reception of the dasars in general among the conservative community. Kathakali padams were in classical ragas, many of which were mostly sanskrit (maNipravaLam) and were performed by Namboodris or other high-castes. But never in any concert style.

There were veda pAThashaalas in almost every village supported by the Kings or local rulers. But there never were music schools. The Bhagavatars were not accorded high respect in those days in comparison with the rithviks. It is quite likely that even T was not considered 'great' during his days. History will speak for itself! CM did survive only among the 'devadasis'. In fact it took a devadasi to start and sustain T's festival. Note also that other than MV and HMB there are not any sanskrit composers. T's shishyas had a field day but they never composed any in sanskrit (I agree Maha vaidyanatha Iyer did compose). I would like to know how sanskrit did make it to the concert stage in the midst of the plethora of Telugu songs and the dominance of T's shishyas!

[srkris]

[quote=""nathikan""]Every one of them! What branch of the sciences did child widows excel in, I wonder, the science of being inauspicious?[/quote]
Children (whether widows or not) cannot be compared to adults. Irrespective of that, it is true that there are various sciences, each with its own grammar/treatises, at least one of which every brahmin tried to get adept in.

For example, the science of mathematics, the science of astronomy, the science of music, the science of linguistics etc.

This is not a prejudiced view... I have a fair idea of ancient India and I only convey my understanding of it.. sorry if it was offensive.

[nathikan]

Arunachala kavi inspite of his sparkling lyrics and ragas never made it (probaly due to the non-brahmin bias)... Vedanayagam pillai was popular only among the non-brahmins. His songs were set to CM tunes much later but were seldom sung. Though Ramalinga svamigaL (vaLLalar) had written a number of Tamil songs, nobody bothered to sing them in Carnatic tunes but were sung more in the style of thEvaram (PaNN style). Primarily these were nonbrahmin works...let us remember that Purandara dasa also was a nonbrahmin which is one of the reasons why his songs were dormant.

Is "conservative community" your euphemism for bamans? Come let us call a spade a spade! Jokes aside, it's interesting to read these remarks (particularly about Purandaradasa) alongside the earlier posts in this thread, avering the universalism of bhakthi.

Children (whether widows or not) cannot be compared to adults. Irrespective of that, it is true that there are various sciences, each with its own grammar/treatises, at least one of which every brahmin tried to get adept in.

For example, the science of mathematics, the science of astronomy, the science of music, the science of linguistics etc.

This is not a prejudiced view... I have a fair idea of ancient India and I only convey my understanding of it.. sorry if it was offensive.

My point was that there were classes of Brahmins who were excluded from normal life, forget about the pursuit of knowledge, and that your view of "every brahmin" implicitly takes "brahmin" as male, not to mention ignores not only the obvious but the rich contempt for that assertion evidenced in our classical literature. I'm afraid your assertion of knowledge doesn't impress me.

[cmlover]

I use no euphemisms but only a cultured language. Societal issues as they relate to CM are discussed here and the rest are irrelevant.

I just saw that Sudha is initiating the singing of ThirukkuraL in Carnatic ragas
http://www.chennaionline.com/colnews/ne ... RYNAME=CHN

I wonder whether she would ever sing them in any concert. Some of the ThirukkuRaL lines are excellent for elaboration in an RTP. However nobody ever tries them! If there is a political goodie to be gained or a financial incentive vidvaans sure will flock to it. Yet again a sparkling review of such an attempt by SVK or GN will change the whole approach to CM overnight. To a large extent the future fate of CM will be determined by the Market Place

[VK RAMAN]

Chauvanistic society was created, nourished and maintained in all religions to give prime importance to male dominance in all walks of life and that includes diety poojas, mantras, slokas, and sangeethams. Saint Meera broke through that some centuries ago. Jansi Rani fought for the free of India. We had male vidwans who refused to play for women singers. All those are histories and statistics. We are living in a dynamic age where equal status must be given to all genders. In U.S, north Indians believe that Bhajans are supposed to be sung and lead by females. Males take back stage just to support their women folks. Bangalore Ramani was an exception to south India; although sampradaya bhajans are still the monopoly of male leaders. Where am I going wrong in my statement?

[srkris]

My point was that there were classes of Brahmins who were excluded from normal life, forget about the pursuit of knowledge, and that your view of "every brahmin" implicitly takes "brahmin" as male, not to mention ignores not only the obvious but the rich contempt for that assertion evidenced in our classical literature. I'm afraid your assertion of knowledge doesn't impress me.

Women (atleast brahmin women) in the old times were not prohibited from acquiring scientific or other knowledge... though they may not have been allowed to use it to earn their livelihood. I didnt therefore exclude women.

[coolkarni]

We are living in a dynamic age where equal status must be given to all genders.

My My !!!
How time Flies !!!
It looks like just yesterday when I used to admire the wisdom in this statement ..
Next to the wound , what women make best , is the bandage !!!
::)

[cmlover]

''''and then bondage
bondage = spiritual or romantic link
as also making the victim a 'bonded slave'

We have the expression in Tamil:
nOyum nOykku marunthum
(the disease as well as its cure)

[rshankar]

A secular presentation:

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2008/02/22/stor ... 320200.htm

[Suji Ram]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEhw6kzoKlA

A song written by Dr. Abdul kalam presented in carnatic style....with a viruttam!

Secular and patriotic

[cmlover]

Thanks Shankar/Suji

[arasi]

Very nice to hear of another secular composer and songs about Gandhiji at that!
Ravi, you have cited a few howlers from the Trivandrum edition of the paper before. Here is another: smaraNe bEku (bEku=is necessary) and not bekku (which means a cat!).
It is nice when one pays extra attention when it comes to writing down lyrics. I can understand the problem with old songs and usages. New songs should be easier.

Suji,
I was so keen on listening to Kalam's composition but was disappointed. My computer cannot play it...

[vasanthakokilam]

Our bekku is quite thrilled

On such lighter note, all this exact context-free transliteration schemes make life difficult for poor cross language skilled person like me. Atleast if not for them I can blame it on the lack of transliteration standards We indians have it quite tough though, with all the different CM languages, expectations of perfect diction or perfect written representation in English of context-sensitive indian languages, combined with lack of certain sounds in some languages, it does not take much to look foolish.

On top of all this, my pet peeve is, the reviewers in Hindu ( not the above one ) using all sorts of CM terminologies willy nilly without bothering to explain them. I can imagine the average CM rasikas' eyes glossing over or get the feeling that CM is all complicated. May be Hindu should publish an explanation of the Frequently Used CM Buzz words once in a while. ( here is a made up one: "Swirling sancharas of Shankarabaranam in the tarasthyai, fine balance of gana-naya, patandara suddham with raga rakti bhava topped with ikara-akara karvais and a janta korvai combined with the percussionist's taka, gumuki, pharans and chaapus made for a grand musical experience." )

[Sangeet Rasik]

I am back on this thread. Thanks to all for making well-reasoned posts and continuing lively discussions. I will catch up one day at a time.

Sbala, RShankar, VK, Arasi, et al,

Regarding the related issues of "censorship" and "quality of a vaggeyakara", that is a tough matter indeed. Let me say that I am not a proponent of a strict "censorship" system that will inevitably stifle creativity. At the same time, I think every once in a while a field of endeavor benefits from an "internal reordering/restructuring". In this regard, my suggestion is as follows:

Develop a system of acknowledgement/accreditation rather than censorship: This system would essentially consist of developing a set of criteria (based on consideration of previous scholarly musicological works, works of previous composers, and knowledge built up by modern musicologists) that can be used to evaluate a vaggeyakara and offer an "endorsement/accreditation" that his/her works are of good quality and will make a valuable contribution to classical music. It need not be mandatory for every composer to go through this, and there should be no public announcement or record that X person was "rejected". Neither should it be used by "accredited" individual X to make personal attacks on "unaccredited" individual Y. This accreditation also need not be permanent, but can be revisited, say every 10 years. It can also be done for past composers.

VK has nicely condensed some of the qualities of the composer as described by Sharangadeva, but even more importantly the compositions should be considered. Do they represent a smooth integration of music and poetry ? Do they pay attention to prosody ? Do they feature embellishments that enhance both the music and the lyrics ? Do they indeed represent classical music, or are they better categorized as bhajans/semi-classical/purely devotional music ? Do they represent a substantial/sufficient number of high-quality compositions, or only a profuse number of mediocre ones ? How much do they incorporate the vast musical knowledge and culture accumulated across length and breadth of India ? Do they get across the chosen themes in some refined manner ? And of course, some standards of decency and decorum as commonly accepted in public discourse (the sung word should be no different from the spoken or written word in standards of public decency).

Some of these criteria are fairly personal and can take some to develop let alone apply, which is why a quite large "panel" is needed. The key is that this "panel" must be a distinguished one, so that the accreditation will have good value and meaning. This system must also be non-bureaucratic and should not be vulnerable to cronyism (again, a large panel will solve this problem). The members can be anonymous to the public, and even to each other. It does not need to meet at one place on a regular basis. As the IT revolution is already happening, such experts can work independently, reflect upon the composer's works, and turn their opinion quite independently without bureaucratic nonsense. The panel should consist of knowledgeable scholars in Indian music (let us say some percentage of professors in university music departments all over India), "eminent" musicians (both senior and junior), composers of already recognized standing, knowledgeable and well-known rasiks.

This system should also not be oriented towards "numerical ratings". I believe that high art cannot be rated in numbers. It should be an overall recommendation based upon an overall picture of aesthetic satisfaction/dissatisfaction even if one does not agree with specific aspects here and there. Note also that it is not an "endorsement" that each and every composition of the individual can be expected to be of the same exact quality, it is an accreditation of the overall ability shown by the composer to maintain standards of high art and make a valuable contribution to classical music.

SR

[sbala]

SR - I completely agree with the system of accreditation. Censorship is probably too strong at this stage in CM. I would also include competitions for young composers. Too much importance is given to performance in CM and other areas are being neglected. The process that every top notch performer had to go through to reach this level has to be applied to composers and other direct contributors to CM whenever applicable. If that means testing the ability of the composer, I find nothing wrong with it. Infact, I will vote everytime in favour of such measures. It will definitely be a step forward in creating a vibrant system that can produce exceptional composers.

[Sangeet Rasik]

Rajeshnat et al,

Your discussion on "implementation" issues is very important. Let me offer my thoughts as of now.

Three interrelated key-words/phrases in my mind are "Communication", "Moderation", and "Shift in Educational Process". Let me try to elaborate:

Communication: One thing I feel that CM can certainly improve upon, is communication, whether it is between the musician and the audience, the composer and the audience (through the musician), or between a concert reviewer and the readers. In the current concert paddhati, there is a long "song list" performed back to back. Everyone claps and goes home. I have seen only a few musicians - e.g. Vijay Shiva, KJ Yesudas, Rama Varma - take a minute or two to communicate substantially with the audience about the composition, its significance, and its special attributes. I think this is particularly important when introducing new themes and new compositions. It does not have to be a long speech. This could be done before or after the composition is sung. For pointing out special embellishments, it may be better to revisit them *after* the formal performance of the piece. For musicians who are not the greatest verbal communicators, it can even be done by a compere/rasik who has a close understanding of the composer (or of course by the composer themselves). Furthermore, why not place one's compositions on a website, such as this distinguished forum here, and make this known during the performance, so that rasiks can go back and reflect further on the work presented. Thus, I feel a significant divergence from the current "dish-it-out" approach is necessary.

Moderation: This can take many forms. For example, it is not necessary that a musician have an entire concert devoted only to secular themes. They can be interspersed with the usual compositions. Again, communication is essential when the "new" and "secular" theme/composition is presented. This will not only engage the audience very easily but also prevent any feeling that the musician/composer is on a "mission" to supplant and replace the existing paradigm. Similarly, the musician must gauge the audience and its diversity. For example, if one is giving a recital in Ahmedabad or Mumbai, a composition on Dhirubhai Ambani or Chhatrapati Shivaji may be greatly enjoyed at once, whereas if one is singing in one of the more conservative Chennai areas, one may want to choose a different composition (say on advaita as embodied by Swami Chinmayananda). Sometimes one can combine the "bhakti" theme with the "secular". E.g. my original ragamalika on great emperors/kings of Indian civilization drew purely from history (in the modern sense) and did not include anything from "puranic itihaas". Later I added two charanams on Rama and Krishna at the beginning, probably a wise method of transitioning from the religious to the secular.

Shift in Educational Process: I think secular themes need to be embedded (in a thoughtful way) into music education. There are two general types of music learners - the first is the person who intends to perform publicly on a regular basis, and the second who is intent upon acquiring proficiency only as a personal desire. In the former case, I believe they should undergo both a university-style training (from an academic musicologist) as well as a "practical" apprenticeship with a well-known performing musician (in some cases both requirements can be met at once). In the latter case, I think the person should definitely be taught by a teacher who has gone through the university-style training, to impart the necessary rigor and principle-oriented approach towards performance and appreciation of classical music. In addition they should feel free to take additional training from other musicians. I feel the academic environment will be much better to intriduce secular themes in the musical education process and make them more easily accepted. Academic musicologists tend to be more open to "new" ideas and are relatively free of religious restrictions and traditions. I am not generalizing to one and all but only suggesting overall trends as observed by myself.

SR

[vasanthakokilam]

And since the Trinity's works, by dominating CM, necessarily ate/eat into the playing time of other compositions, including Tamil ones, identifying the Trinity's language preferences as one of the causes for Tamil's exclusion does not appear far fetched to me

Vijay, it may not have been apparent from my 'systemic' ramblings, but we are on the same page on this one, as long as your point is a description of the concert scene in Madras in the early to mid 20th century. As I wrote before, there was a whole sequence of events that provided the fertile ground for the dependent evolution of Rasikas' tastes & preferences, and the availability of compositions from the Trinity. Add to that all the specific players and social circumstances described by CML and Arasi. Once the CM system got into an equilibrium state with that 'tight-lock' among rasikas, sabha management and perfomers, it tended to stay in that state until some external disturbance of sufficient magnitude caused some chaos. The system then settles in to a new equilibrium. That is how I view the effect of the 'Tamil Isai Movement' as that disturbance of sufficient magnitude and the resulting new equilibrium where singing a few tamil songs is accepted by that triumvarate of Rasikas-Sabha Secretaries-Performers. You need another disturbance of sufficient magnitude for a new equilibrium that includes Secular compositions.

The fact that the trinity were contemperaneous is in itself a statistical quirk. To add another set of equally qualified composers in the same time period and in the same language would compound it manifold. And if indeed they did, that their work was, for some reason, never discovered, even more so. And we must remember that Tamil composers from that era - be it GKB or Arunachala Kavi - while not as popular as the Trinity, were not unknown either. And in my very guarded opinion, composers of great merit but nowhere near the Trinity.

Following are just some comments on your comments to illustrate my 'systemic' analysis of this situation. Just to be sure, these comments are not to undermine the compositional genius of the Trinity ( who am I to do that? and also I do personally think they were geniuses ) nor I am carrying water for some unknown/less known Tamil composers. In fact it is outside of such value and aesthetic judgement of the Trinity. It is all about how to think about the Past based on historical narratives which are by definition very compressed.

What you call as a statistical quirk is really not a statistical quirk with respect to their birth and living comtemporaneously. Why? Because, there are always geniuses living contemporaneously. In the whole population mix, that is not an infinitessimal probability. Addressing them as Trinity by grouping these three together is something that later generations did for whatever reasons they saw fit. That is what gives us the illusion of a statistical quirk.

Another related point is: Our current value judgement like 'merit', 'relative difference in quality' etc, need not have anything to do with the reasons for winners and losers of the past. Let us take for granted that winners win out based on merit. But that does not necessarily mean losers lost out because their works were inferior. We are all susceptible to that implied and unconscious bias, that is the 'survivor bias' with History. The environment and the multitude of other causes prevalent at that time caused the losers' works not to be propagated to the future generations with as much vigor as the winners. That is the only thing we can infer from compressed Historical narratives. Is it possible that they did not rise to the prominence because they were inferior? Yes, definitely but a few centuries later, lack of any specific details, only if our definition of 'inferior' is same as 'whether they survived or not'. That is basically a cyclical statement and by definition it is true. This is the flip side of 'survivor bias'. We can call it the 'loser bias'.

I am stating all this abstract stuff to just describe one point about these kinds of things. I started in this 'complex system' way of looking at the past when you stated in passing "[ lack of Tamil preemminence is a ] result of a remarkable efflorescence of compositional genius in other languages". The key words are 'remarkable efflorescne of compositional genius'. The past does not necessarily produce losers based on our current view of 'genius' let alone the definition of 'genius' prevalent at that time. It is a result of the complex ecosystem prevalent at that time consisting social, political and cultural sub-ecosystems interacting in complex ways as they always do. Not any different from how things happen today about today's matters.

[vijay]

VK, just summing up the remaining points of difference here:

1) Whether the trinity's popularity reflects some kind of survivor's bias: I cannot accept it in the Trinity's case. There is no doubt in my mind that the Trinity's works can be judged "superior" without reference to history and on musical merit alone. However I agree that this is a debatable point.

2) Whether the Trinity's contemporaneousness was a statistical improbability: The Trinity may be a later term but that in fact, asserts the remarkable nature of the phenomenon. However, this takes us back to the first point wrt the merit of the Trinity's works. If we accept that the Trinity represents a survivor's bias, then it becomes less a statistical quirk and more a convenient coinage of propogandists.

The limited point in my original post was that the popularity of Trinity's works influenced the language mix on the cutcheri stage to the disadvantage of Tamil. Whether the Trinity deserved their popularity or whether that was just a fortuitous consequence of various socio-political factors is something I did not originally intend to comment on although, in retrospect, my tone possibly betrayed my deep reverence for their works. We often take it for granted that the Trinity was great and any suggestion to the contrary causes an intense discomfort. Perhaps that was the reason for my belabored and, possibly, indignant responses.

In any case, I learnt a lot from your insightful views as a result besides which, it afforded some pleasant diversions from stitching together a painful proposal for nights on end. So, all in all, I am indebted!