Desadhi talam...., starting point (eduppu) etc.

chitrathiagarajan · Post by **chitrathiagarajan** » 03 Aug 2008, 16:49

What is Desadhi talam?
What is the difference between adhi and desadhi talams?
CT

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 03 Aug 2008, 18:02

I am not positive about this, however I believe that Desadhi Thala means that the song will start 3/4th's into Adhi thalam , meaning during the beginning of the second Dhrithum. It's kind of like Madhyamam, which starts 1/2 way into the thalam.

Again I am not positive about this so if I am wrong, I would love to know how.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2008, 01:44

Desadi and madyadi thalas are specific cases of 1-kalai Adi thala.

Code: Select all

Desadi Thala

1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   1
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
      ^
      |____Song starts here

Code: Select all

Madyadi Thala

1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   1
|   |   |   |   |   |   |   |   |
  ^
  |____Song starts here

Besides the eduppu, desadi thala songs' laya structure is usually characterized by an alternating pattern of strong and weak emphasis and a pronounced stronger stress on the 5th tap ( 1st of beat of 1st drutha ). Madyadi thala songs' laya structure is usually characterized by a rest on the 1st beat ( 1st beat of the laghu ) and a rest on the 5th beat ( 1st beat of the 1st drutha ) or an emphasis on that 5th beat. The madhyadi eduppu pattern is very common in flim music and other music genres in India and around the world, next only to starting the song on the beat ( samam eduppu )

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Aug 2008, 02:26

Is desadi the same as mukal edam adi tala?

Or is it the other characteristics that mark it out?

(Thanks for you clear diagram

)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2008, 02:32

Nick, they go together. The other characteristics I mention are usually present. In fact, those other characteristics are the rhythmically significant ones and they force the eduppu ( starting point ) to those positions. So, those starting positions are not magic numbers, they are a natural (derived) outcome of the above mentioned inherent laya of those songs. Such simple and musically significant descriptions of eduppu are usually not provided by CM books which is one of my pet-peeves. These are my own 'reverse engineered' conclusions from many songs in these thalas.

The terms, mukkal idam ( 3/4th position ) for desadi and arai idam ( 1/2 position ) for madyadi, are inconsistent. A consistant terminology is Onnarai Idam ( 1.5 position ) for desadi and Arai idam ( 1/2 position ) for madhyadi

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Aug 2008, 06:32

Some popular kritis in desadi tala include:
Bantureeti - Hamsanadham
Raghunayaka - Hamsadhwani
Brovabarama - Bahudari
Marivere - Shanmughapriya

Some popular krithis in Madhyadi tala:
Rama katha sudha - Madhyamavathi
Ethavunara - Kalyani
Siva Siva Siva - Pantuvarali
Varavallabha ramana - Hamsadhwani

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2008, 09:43

(Mohan, if you can find links for the other songs you mentioned, please edit your posts and include them. That will be useful.)

Desadi - Marivere - Shanmukhapriya ( http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/YqO ... As1NMvHdW/ )

Madhyadi - Parama Purusha - Vasantha by Swathi Thirunal ( http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/NUX ... As1NMvHdW/ )
Madhyadi - Siva siva - Pantuvarali (http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/nJX ... As1NMvHdW/

These two sets of songs are good representative examples of the contrast in such simple laya structures. Notice the distance from the start of the song to that major pronounced stress. Without knowing any technical terms or details, one can discern that in desadi case, it occurs sooner than madhyadi case. That pronounced stress is the fulcrum point at which the purvanga and uttaranga of the layam are delicately balanced. . The approch to that fulcrum point is different in the two laya structures and it is feelable. It is inherent in the song.

Now bring the tala into the picture and we will see that the Eduppu automatically emerges. For adi tala, the 5th beat is the anchor point. Overlay the above inherent laya structure of the song over the external adi tala structure such that the fulcrum point of the laya coincides with the anchor point of the tala, The natural outcome is that the eduppu for the desadi laya has to be later than the eduppu of madhyadi for our chosen thala. Why? Because the distance from the start to the fulcrum point is shorter for desadi than for madhyadi.

CM compositions are structured with the fulcrum point as a fundamental and primary laya characteristic and the eduppu is thus a derived property when the tala is brought into the picture.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2008, 11:33

If you buy into my main point that Eduppu is an emergent property when you align the fulcrum point of the song with the anchor point of the thala, here is a quiz.

What would be the eduppu of a madhyadi song if you consider the thala to be kanda jampa thala ( which is also 8 beats but with a 5+1+2 structure ) instead of adi?

Work it out by thinking it through using the distance rationale and overlay technique I have described above. Then verify it by listening and keeping the thalam to kanda jampa for the Parama Purusha song ( http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/NUX ... As1NMvHdW/ ).

For bonus points, the same question but keep the thala to Thisra Matya structure ( which is also 8 beats but with a nice 3+2+3 balanced structure ). Where is the eduppu now for the Parama Purusha song?

( For this exercise don't get distracted by thoughts of which of the three is the appropriate 8 beat structure for this song...that is a different discussion, possibly without any firm objective conclusions ).

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 04 Aug 2008, 12:57

vk... very nice!

1. But why did you start the song betwen the counts rather than on the count?

2. Can you indicate on the diagram where the beats are?

Thank you for the simple presentation.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 04 Aug 2008, 14:06

The starting point of the tala is not all that important. What is important is where the stress would fall and this indirectly determines the eduppu. So for bantureethi kOlu, the stress falls on the 'kO' which lands on the first dhrutam or fifth beat of adi tala.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Aug 2008, 21:18

sureshvv:

1. That is the crux of the whole discussion. Answer is very succinctly provided by Mohan, or my lengthy explanations above.

2. The beats, are represented in the diagram by the '|' symbol and the number above it.

chitrathiagarajan · Post by **chitrathiagarajan** » 04 Aug 2008, 23:13

Thank you VK,Mohan for the explanations.
Do other types of talams have similar characteristics?
I would appreciate explanation on chapu talams too.
CT

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Aug 2008, 00:18

vasanthakokilam wrote:Such simple and musically significant descriptions of eduppu are usually not provided by CM books which is one of my pet-peeves.

CM Theory books contain material to be memorised --- not explanations.

One of my pet peeves!

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 05 Aug 2008, 05:48

chitrathiagarajan wrote:Do other types of talams have similar characteristics?
I would appreciate explanation on chapu talams too.
CT

They do - take Evaruru in Mohanam (Misra Chapu) for example.
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/0JQ ... As1NMvHdW/

The basic structure of misra chapu is:
123|45|67||

The eduppu for the pallavi line (eva) is after 1.5 beats but the strong beats come on the 4th and 6th beats at the syllables ru and ra
,,,eva | ru,,, | ra,,,||

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 05 Aug 2008, 06:15

Mods,

Request that this thread is moved to the Tala Section, lest it gets buried in "General discussions"

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Aug 2008, 07:49

Done.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Aug 2008, 22:24

Mohan: Many songs in Misra chapu seem to have stress points that can map to an alternate eduppu point. For example, kripaya palaya chowre (http://www.swathithirunal.in/htmlfile/149.htm ) normally is kept with the eduppu around tap 2. As an alternate, I feel it also provides for this: Start the song right on the 4th tap. It still feels comfortable.

Is it just me or you can all relate to it also?

I think such a way of keeping the thala has a different name, Viloma Chapu.

Instead of

| TA KI TA | TA KA | DHI MI ||

it will be

| TA KA | DHI MI | TA KI TA ||

If we do this, the Kripaya Palaya starts on samam, it feels equally comfortable, it still fits the song's stress patterns fine and provides a nice variation for the thala-keeping oriented listener. ( of course, the song is still rendered the same way )

Any thoughts?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 23 Aug 2008, 11:13

Chapu talas don't always follow the same rules as standard talas. I could follow your example quite well but being familiar with the song, always found myself adjusting to the original tala.
A classic example of viloma chapu is Ninnu Vina in Poorvi Kalyani

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Aug 2008, 00:47

being familiar with the song, always found myself adjusting to the original tala

Me too.

>Chapu talas don't always follow the same rules as standard talas.

Can you elaborate? That will be useful.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 25 Aug 2008, 06:52

What I meant is that in a standard tala like Triputa tala the strong beat (the beat which is emphasized) is usually the first dhrutam. For chapu talas there are not always clear points of emphasis.

There are different angas for the normal talas (lagu, dhrutam, anudhrutam, guru, etc) yet chapu talas just have beats.

violinvicky · Post by **violinvicky** » 09 Oct 2013, 20:01

All:
Continuing on the cue of Viloma Chapu (i.e., 4 + 3), does this song qualify as Viloma Chapu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceq2OEmjUmk ?
Or should it be simply be considered anagaadha eduppu in Misra Chapu ..?

rasikas.org

Desadhi talam...., starting point (eduppu) etc.

Re: Desadhi talam...., starting point (eduppu) etc.